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Ninetales

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by norelationstojfk, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. norelationstojfk

    norelationstojfk

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    [​IMG]
    ~* Ninetales *~
    ~* The Fox Pokemon *~

    ~*~*~*~
    [​IMG]
    ~*~*~*~

    ~* Base Stats *~
    73 | 76 | 75 | 81 | 100 | 100

    ~* Abilities *~
    Flash Fire - Raises Fire type moves attack power by 1.5. Grants immunity to Fire type moves. Will-O-Wisp will not cause burn to Fire type pokemon with this ability
    Drought (Dream World) - Summons permanent sun ​

    Full Learnset (open)
    Level Up (Vulpix)
    Lv1: Ember
    Lv4: Tail Whip
    Lv7: Roar
    Lv11: Quick Attack
    Lv14: Fire Spin
    Lv17: Confuse Ray
    Lv21: Imprison
    Lv24: Fire Burst
    Lv27: Safeguard
    Lv31: Will-o-Wisp
    Lv34: Payback
    Lv37: Flamethrower
    Lv41: Captivate
    Lv44: Purgatory
    Lv47: Grudge
    Lv51: Extrasensory
    Lv54: Fire Blast

    Level Up (Ninetales)
    Lv1: Nasty Plot
    Lv1: Ember
    Lv1: Quick Attack
    Lv1: Confuse Ray
    Lv1: Safeguard

    TM/HM
    TM03 - Psycho Shock
    TM04 - Calm Mind
    TM05 - Roar
    TM06 - Toxic
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM11 - Sunny Day
    TM15 - Hyper Beam
    TM17 - Protect
    TM20 - Safeguard
    TM21 - Frustration
    TM22 - Solarbeam
    TM27 - Return
    TM28 - Dig
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM35 - Flamethrower
    TM38 - Fire Blast
    TM42 - Facade
    TM43 - Nitro Charge
    TM44 - Rest
    TM45 - Attract
    TM48 - Troll
    TM50 - Overheat
    TM53 - Energy Ball
    TM59 - Complete Burn
    TM61 - Will-O-Wisp
    TM66 - Payback
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM77 - Psych Up
    TM85 - Dream Eater
    TM87 - Swagger
    TM90 - Substitute

    Egg Moves
    Faint Attack
    Hypnosis
    Flail
    Spite
    Disable
    Howl
    Heat Wave
    Flare Blitz
    Extrasensory
    Power Swap
    Secret Power
    Evil Eye
    Sweep Slap

    Competitive Movepool (open)
    Level Up (Vulpix)
    Lv7: Roar
    Lv17: Confuse Ray
    Lv27: Safeguard
    Lv31: Will-o-Wisp
    Lv37: Flamethrower
    Lv54: Fire Blast

    Level Up (Ninetales)
    Lv1: Nasty Plot

    TM/HM
    TM03 - Psycho Shock
    TM04 - Calm Mind
    TM05 - Roar
    TM06 - Toxic
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM17 - Protect
    TM22 - Solarbeam
    TM50 - Overheat
    TM53 - Energy Ball
    TM61 - Will-O-Wisp
    TM90 - Substitute

    Egg Moves
    Hypnosis

    New Move Details (open)
    Fire Burst | Special | Fire | 15 | 70 | 100 | Hits all targets

    Purgatory | Special | Fire | 5 | 100 | 50 | Causes burn

    Troll | Special | Normal | 15 | 60 | 100 | Raises BP for each Pokemon in your party with this attack

    Nitro Charge | Physical | Fire | 20 | 50 | 100 | May raise the user's Speed

    Psycho Shock | Special | Psychic | 10 | 80 | 100 | Calculate's damage with the target's defense stat

    Evil Eye | Special | Ghost | 10 | 50 | 100 | Doubles in power if the target has a status ailment

    Sweep Slap | Physical | Normal | 10 | 25 | 85 | Attacks two to five times in a row


    Ninetales has been a widely popular Pokemon for its beautiful appearance, but competitively it's not the best fire-type out there. As with most Fire types, she suffers from a poor defensive typing which comes with a weakness to the omnipresent Stealth Rock. In the fifth generation, Ninetales has a new card to play called Drought. Those of you familiar with Ubers, Drought has been an ability exclusive to Groudon. Sun can now be brought to the standard competitive environment, but the question stands: will it be able to stay there?

    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

    ~ ChoiceTales ~

    Ninetales @ Choice Specs
    Drought
    Modest
    252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Sp.Def
    Overheat / Fire Blast
    Solarbeam
    Psycho Shock
    Hidden Power Ground/Ice

    Since Ninetales already has an acceptable speed stat, it makes sense to boost its mediocre Special Attack as much as you can. This accomplishes that without the need for setup with Nasty Plot. Psycho Shock is a new toy that many special attackers have gained in the transition. If you didn't catch its effect in the new move details, Psycho Shock's power is based off the user's Special Attack stat, but damages the target through it's defense stat. That means this set isn't walled by Blissey or any other dedicated special walls. It effectively fills the gap left by Dark Pulse, which is unfortunately incompatible with Drought.

    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

    ~ Nasty Plot ~

    Ninetales @ Life Orb
    Drought
    Timid / Modest
    252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe / 4 sp.Def
    Nasty Plot
    Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    Energy Ball / Solarbeam
    Psycho Shock / Hidden Power Fighting/Ice/Ground

    Ninetales is pretty threatening with weather advantage and a +2 boost under its belt. Psycho Shock, again, shows great potential as a way to break special walls trying to stop your sweep. However, Tyranitar and Politoed (and to an extent Hippowdon) threaten this set with their own weather and STAB attacks. Tyranitar especially ruins it, being immune to Psycho Shock. For this reason Hidden Power Fighting might be preferable if you're willing to give up your ability to break walls. With a +2 boost and Modest nature, HP Fighting delivers 84.2 - 99% damage to max HP/Sp.Def +Nature Tyranitar in Sandstorm, a OHKO with T-Spikes/Spikes support. (Edit: fixed my calculation. I knew it sounded too good to be true.) If you would rather not attempt to kill off Tyranitar, then another HP such as Hidden Power Ice or Ground may be applicable.

    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

    ~ Supporting ~

    Ninetales @ Leftovers / Wide Lens
    Drought
    Modest / Timid
    252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe / 4 sp.Def
    Hypnosis / Toxic / Protect
    Will-O-Wisp
    Energy Ball / Solarbeam
    Fire Blast

    The original Double Status set. However, Hypnosis has such a low accuracy, it's likely more beneficial to use another move in its place. I list Toxic and Protect because they seem the most sensible for use. Energy Ball over Solarbeam to ensure you have a reliable move, but if you're confident enough that the weather will be in your favor (eg. planning to kill other weather inducers first) then by all means use Solarbeam.

    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

    ~ Lead ~

    Ninetales @ Focus Sash
    Drought
    Modest / Timid
    252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe / 4 sp.Def
    Fire Blast
    Energy Ball / Solarbeam
    Quick Attack / Hidden Power Ice / Ground
    Hypnosis

    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

    ~ Specially Defensive ~

    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Calm
    Drought
    200 HP / 52 Def / 216 SpD / 40 Spe
    -Flamethrower
    -Toxic
    -Will-O-Wisp / Hidden Power Ice/Ground
    -Protect

  2. XxSaiyanxLordxX

    XxSaiyanxLordxX

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    Yup. DrizzleToed/DroughtTales will probably be going OU this gen. My prediction even though tiers havent even been established yet. A lot of teams might also consider having weather inducers of their own to counter sunny day teams as well as rain dance teams, i already made 1 with the chomp/ttar combo.

    Looks exciting
  3. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    Wanna mention a Lead Set:

    Ninetales @ Focus Sash
    4 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe
    ~Fire Blast
    ~SolarBeam / Energy Ball
    ~Quick Attack / Hidden Power [Ice]
    ~Hypnosis

    It takes on quite a few very well, and it's ability to Sleep the opposing lead is good too. Also Sets up Sunlight by Turn-1.
  4. Blazen

    Blazen

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    Unfortunately Niney here lacks 2 things that it could have really used. A recovery move (wish, recover, or morning sun would all be good choices), and some kind of switching move, preferably Baton Pass.
  5. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    Ninetales ins't that bulky in the first place and Fire- is a pretty bad defensive Type IIRC. He does get Roar, but I honestly don't see the need for Switching attacks on any of his sets.
  6. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    The problem with HP Fight is that even with Modest, a LO and against a TTar with no HP or SpDef EVs, it only does 48.1-57.5%. With 160HP factored in, as per the Band set, that becomes 43-51.4%, a pretty unlikely 2HKO even on one of the frailer TTars.

    Factoring in the +2 from NP, running your calc i get 84.2-99%, meaning with lefties spikes are wholly necessary for this to even have a chance of KOing Ttar before it gets Tales back. And in 4th Gen at least very few weather teams comitted to spikestacking, though with permaweather that may change.

    Despite it being necessary for the fox to face off with TTar due to its newfound role, I honestly believe the best thing to do is simply Will-O-Wisp it on the switchin and flee (this enables you to survive any pursuit even after taking SR damage). This is more important than risking staying in on TTar as it will almost always have come in on Tales and setup Sand which you will need it to counter in future.

    Anyway, against Hippowdon Ninetales stands to 2HKO with Energy Ball with minimal residual damage, and obviously Abomasnow is destroyed by whatever fire move is packed. The other problematic weather inducer is Politoed, who takes 34.4-40.6% from Modest LO energy ball with its typical max/max spreads. Surf in Rain OHKOs back. Toxic/Hypnosis may be worth packing purely to have something to do it before getting the hell out.

    Btw, both calcs assume unfavourable weather for Tales.

    In terms of keeping the weather up as long as possible, what do people think could be a viable set?
  7. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    I wanna say Droughtales will be banned and not regular but this isn't the topic for this discussion. Anyway Ninetales has decent bulk and sp.atk but nothing much spectacular. She won't do much in the upper tiers with her lackluster attack. I think Doreida would be an amazing sun abuser what with sleep powder and great speed/sp.atk. Shiftry will always be good too thanks to explosion.

    I'm amazed GF gave Politoed and Ninetales these two abilities through dream world. Considering it seemed like a Kyogre/Groudon exclusive.
  8. norelationstojfk

    norelationstojfk

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    I can see where you're coming from, but I don't see how our calculations could be so different. Did you factor in natures? Although I know I accidentally left out a +Sp.Def nature on T-Tar, though. Maybe that made the difference, but considering not all T-tars generally run max defensive stats, Hidden Power Fighting can hit it for a KO most of the time. I'm open for suggestions for other Hidden Powers, though.
  9. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    What about Focus Blast? Shouldn't that always kill TTar?
  10. norelationstojfk

    norelationstojfk

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    Ninetales doesn't get Focus Blast, though. That would have been a nice addition to its movepool...
  11. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    I did indeed, but was running Adamant as you did. My recalcs are as follows:

    Modest LO 252 +2 Tales HP Fight VS Calm 252/252 TTar in Sand = 76.2-90.1% (OHKO only certain with SR +2 Spikes layers, only possible with SR+1 Spikes)

    Modest LO 252+2 Tales HP Fight VS Adamant 252/252 TTar in sand = 84.2-99% (OHKO only certain with SR +1 spikes layer, only possible with SR)

    Modest LO 252+2 Tales HP Fight VS Adamant 4HP TTar in sand = 125.5-147.8% (Clean OHKO)

    To me the issues with running that set to rid yourself of TTar are as follows
    - LO, SS and SR drastically wear down its health quickly (especially a problem if Hippowdon and TTar are used together) and thus its ability to reset weather reliably is crippled
    - Not reliably taking down defensive variants of TTar without both investment and hazard stacking, which I dislike in conjunction with offensive weather teams
    -ScarfTar screws it over completely
    -Still cannot muscle through Politoed
    -Loss of Speed means less utility or ability to sweep in general

    I think, after some thought, I will run a 252/252, Timid, Lefties, WoW/Toxic?/Energy Ball/Fire Blast Tales. I can make use of Lefties, and cripple TTar/Hippo with WoW, and Poli/Hippo with Toxic, then switch out safely, taking no more than a weakened Pursuit. I may even run Overheat over Fire Blast for the greater accuracy and power and because I severely doubt I will be remaining in very long.

    Essentially, this relies on being able to switch out of any TTar once after WoW, and then keep chipping away at it as it comes back in following you. Timid 252 Energy Ball does 45% minimum to Banded TTar, so if Pursuit hurts you a lot the next time it comes out you're safe to Energy Ball and 2HKO with Burn.

    Energy Ball helps you revenge rain sweepers and Ground types better than HP Fight, and Fire Blast/Overheat deals with Ice types/ Doryuuzu (who you have to run Timid to be sure of outspeeding, annoyingly.)
  12. pokemon

    pokemon

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    The problem with all the sets is that when someone uses a Swampert lure, and then you fire off a Solarbeam when they switch in a T-Tar, you're screwed. Even if you do outspeed its 120 BP, while Tar gets the x1.5 boost. He can Stone Edge you into oblivion. That is the biggest problem. Even if you do run HP Fighting, how can you predict a Tar switch in when you are facing a Suicune/Vaporeon/Swampert? If at all they might as well switch in a Heatran and just Earth Power your face off. Thats the problem with DroughtNinetails. Its much overhyped, and it won't be that much of a threat with Abomasnow, Hippowdown, Tyranitar, and Politoed running around. This is more viable in UU than OU IMO.
  13. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Having used Sun in UU and NU and Doubles a fair bit, all the autoweather there has taught me one thing - never use Solarbeam. Even on an autoweather poke like Ninetales, as he just sucks in TTars. Leaf Storm is the alternative of choice, but Energy Ball or Grass Knot have to make do typically.

    Overhyped it could be, but as long as people aren't foolish and run Solarbeam, the problem you talk about will not exist.
  14. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

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    A few notes:

    First of all, remember that HP Fighting lowers the IV for Speed, making max speed useless; thus, for this reason, I suggest you just screw HP Fighting (Nientales shouldn't be trying to KO Tyrantitar anyway; it will just be Stone Edged/hit with a faster Pursuit) and just run HP Ice for Ononokusu.

    Otherwise, run Timid on all of the sets with max speed or get outrun by sooo many things.
  15. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    I'm curious why you say to run HP Ice for Ononokusu, when Tales could simply burn it on the switch-in then switch to something to take its attack?

    In terms of countering other weathers in general I'm leaning towards Energy Ball + Fire Attack, whilst to maintain utlity against non weather based teams a max speed WoW and Toxic seem useful.
  16. pokemon

    pokemon

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    This isn't just about Ninetails running Solarbeam, but rather all Sunny day sweepers. They are mostly if not all Grass types that abuse Solarbeam+HP Fire/Weather Ball. That is the problem with Drought Ninetails. Even if it sets up infinite sun, how are you going to abuse it without using Solarbeam? Leaf Storm? Sure it works, but having -2 SAtk isn't the best thing to do when you have to keep switching out, racking on SR damage.

    I guess you could run Leaf Storm but the -2 SAtk would be quite annoying. I mean tons of pokes resist grass now, they even have Herbivore which grants an immunity to grass. I'm not sayint that Ninetails has no potential, its just that to abuse the sun, Solarbeam is the best choice, and other weather inducers ruin that.
  17. Farewell

    Farewell

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    You know, with 1 layer of Toxic Spikes support & Protect on Leftovers Ninetails, Ninetails is able to KO any Tyranitar set after a Nasty Plot and a Hidden Power Fighting. Plus Protect can be used for additional recovery when not under Hail/Sandstorm, can be used for scouting (like on a lead), and can overall abuse Toxic [Spikes] through the damage each turn.

    All of you think of needing as much power for the switch in, but forgot that Ninetails can simply Protect (especially vs Scarf versions) on Tyranitar with a single layer of Toxic Spikes damage which deals 25% over 2 turns (including the switch in), or 18.75% if Tyranitar is holding Leftovers. Instead of 1 layer of Spikes + Stealth Rock, a simple 1 layer of Toxic Spikes + Protect will do equal damage, and is a little easier to pull off (at least by the 1 less turn necessary to set up).
    Additionally, Toxic Spikes has always been used as a way to stop Rain teams, so it should be hard to find a place for it since Toxic Spikes can help conquer other Weather abusers.
  18. norelationstojfk

    norelationstojfk

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    Original post is now updated (slightly).

    Thanks for your feedback. I'm trying to contribute more to Smogon and developing the metagame this time around, because during DP I just kind of sat back and watched it happen.
  19. Blazen

    Blazen

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    Recovery move for a Sub set, and the switch move to get out of traps, tags, and pursuits. Also, possibly a wishpass set would have been nice.
  20. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    A specially defensive spread would help Ninetales switch into water type attacks (and also makes a great grass type counter). Ninetales is bulkier than you think: it's not even 3HKO'd by Defensive Zapdos at full health, while Vaporeon's Surf cannot 3HKO it after SR damage (in the sun).

    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Calm
    EVs: 200 HP/52 Def/216 SpD/40 Spe
    -Flamethrower
    -Toxic
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Protect

    I'm loving the idea of double status on this thing. Toxic annoys the hell out of waters switching in, and Will-O-Wisp cripples Tyranitar, who is Ninetales' #1 enemy.
  21. Blaziken Fan

    Blaziken Fan

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    I've always loved Ntales, so I'm glad it's got a new toy. I'd love to see a Blaziken and Nintales combo.

    Anyway. I think that Fire Blast actually does more to TTar in sun than Energy Ball.

    I think I'll use Timid, Nasty Plot, Flamrthrower, Energy Ball, Dark Pulse. Using DP to take care of the new ghosts, is desukan.
  22. Murkglow

    Murkglow

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    A set like this would probably be my set of choice for Ninetails. Trying to go offensive seems pointless to me (and puts too much risk on her which isn't a good thing since her biggest purpose is her weather). Will-O-Wisp like crazy and swap early would be my game plan with her.
  23. shipship

    shipship

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    Choiced Ninetales seems pretty pointless to me because Tyranitar will just come in and Pursuit you to death, removing your weather permanently for the rest of the battle.
  24. The King of Harts

    The King of Harts

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    Between Politoed and Ninetails, Ninetails is certainly the more difficult one to switch into because of that blasted Double Status set which will probably be the most common one. Luckily Heatran completely walls him no matter the set unless he decides to run HP Ground over Fighting (which just welcomes in Tyranitar).
  25. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    Sets dependent on weather are a big no-no, because of TTar. And unfortunately, our FireFox, I mean fiery fox does nothing to it, barring HP Fight....

    I would go with HP Grnd, since atleast it scores some Super effective damage on TTAR.

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