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Normal Arceus (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by firecape, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    [​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/arceus

    [Overview]

    <p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is completed, please stare in pure, unadulterated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best and most versatile Pokémon in the game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Extreme Killer
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: ExtremeSpeed
    move 3: Shadow Claw
    move 4: Earthquake / Overheat / Recover
    item: Silk Scarf / Leftovers
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Normal Arceus is a terror to behold on the battlefield. With its amazing bulk, good Attack stat, excellent type coverage, as well as STAB ExtremeSpeed, one would be wise to make ample preparations for this set. This set may appear to be outclassed by Rayquaza due to Rayquaza's higher Attack stat and STAB Dragon-type attacks, but STAB ExtemeSpeed, more bulk, and lack of a weakness to Stealth Rock all serve to differentiate Swords Dance Arceus from Swords Dance Rayquaza.</p>.

    <p>This is arguably the best set Arceus can run, and for good reason. STAB ExtremeSpeed, coming off a base 120 Attack stat and amazing bulk, is something to fear. Swords Dance is the crux of this set as it allows Normal Arceus to raise its Attack stat, and, by association, ExtremeSpeed's power to sky-high levels. ExtremeSpeed is the main attacking move as it provides STAB priority that puts the fear of god into many Uber Pokemon. Shadow Claw is chosen for the third move slot as it gives Arceus a way to hit Lugia and Ghost-type Pokemon that are immune to ExtremeSpeed for super effective damage. The last slot is dependent on what you need Normal Arceus to beat. Earthquake gives you reliable coverage against Steel-type Pokemon that resist both ExtremeSpeed and Shadow Claw. On the other hand, Overheat allows Normal Arceus to beat one of its biggest enemies, Skarmory, while still retaining the ability to roast Steel-type Pokemon; however, the accompanying Special Attack drop means that you will only be able to use it once, which is a definite drawback. Recover is another option to capitalize on Arceus's bulk, but it will sorely miss the coverage provided by Earthquake or Overheat.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The item you use is based on personal preference. Silk Scarf provides Normal Arceus with 20% more power on ExtremeSpeed without sacrificing HP, while Leftovers enhances Arceus's bulk. If you desire more power, Life Orb is a usable option, and is unique to Normal Arceus. If you do choose Life Orb, Recover is the best choice for the last slot to mitigate the recoil damage. The last item to consider is Lum Berry; with Lum Berry, Normal Arceus can shrug off a Dark Void or Will-O-Wisp from Darkrai and Giratina, respectively, which would normally put Arceus out of commission. As for moves, a viable option to consider is Dragon Claw, which hits Pokemon such as Latias and Giratina-O harder than Shadow Claw, but isn't recommended as the coverage against Lugia and Ghost Arceus is sorely missed. Shadow Force can work over Shadow Claw, as it can OHKO opposing Ghost Arceus after a Swords Dance, but other than that it just leaves Arceus open to easy switch-ins; there are Pokemon immune to Shadow Force and ExtremeSpeed, meaning it's easy to simply switch back and forth and wall Arceus. Return is worth a glance, as it has a lot more PP when compared to ExtremeSpeed, but one should know by now that STAB ExtremeSpeed is what makes so many Uber Pokemon run in fear.</p>

    <p>Another thing to consider with Normal Arceus is its nature; this is one of the few Arceus sets where a non Speed-boosting nature is viable. The choice depends on whether your team plans to utilize Spikes or not. If it uses only Stealth Rock, Adamant becomes the better choice to secure KOs that Jolly would otherwise fall short on. However, if your team does use Spikes, Jolly becomes the better option as one layer of Spikes, along with Stealth Rock, makes the power boost from Adamant negligible. It is worth noting the nature change only applies if you are using Silk Scarf or Life Orb, as without them, even with Adamant's power boost, Arceus will fall short on many KOs, making the Speed boost from Jolly more desirable. Jolly allows Arceus to outspeed all base 100 Speed Pokemon and below.</p>

    <p>Swords Dance Normal Arceus has problems with Giratina, who can Will-O-Wisp Arceus and crush any chance it has of sweeping, and Lugia, who can set up Reflect and laugh at Arceus's weak Shadow Claws as Lugia Whirlwinds it away. For this reason, Wobbuffet alongside a Pursuit user, such as Scizor and Metagross, can make great teammates. Wobbuffet can switch into Lugia or Giratina, Encore them, and proceed to use Tickle to wither away their Defense stat into oblivion. After an adequate amount of Tickles, your Pursuit user can come in and crush the weakened walls, as they have no choice but to switch out thanks to Encore. Latias can also put Giratina and Lugia in a tight spot with Dragon Pulse and Thunder, respectively. As a bonus, Latias can check Fighting Arceus, which can take any attack Normal Arceus has with ease and crush it with its own super effective STAB. This set also is hard-pressed to sweep when Groudon is around, as Groudon can easily take a boosted ExtremeSpeed and either Roar Arceus away or hit it with a crippling Toxic or Thunder Wave. Latias can help against Groudon too, provided Latias has Grass Knot. Skarmory can easily switch in on a Groudon that lacks a Fire-type move (which many do), and proceed to set up Spikes, which can be helpful if you choose to use a Jolly nature on your Arceus, even though Skarmory can't beat Groudon one-on-one without Toxic. Mixed Dialga with Bulk Up and Draco Meteor is very adept at luring out Groudon and crushing it, so it too can be a valuable teammate. Dialga can also run Fire Blast to fry pesky Skarmory, who pose a big problem for this Arceus if it lacks Overheat. Without Overheat, Skarmory can switch in, set up Spikes, and Whirlwind Arceus away at its leisure. Pokemon that can use Light Screen and Reflect, such as Mewtwo, Uxie, and Latios, can help Normal Arceus set up a lot easier, so are worth looking into. Lastly, Stealth Rock is a necessity when using this Arceus, so a reliable Pokemon that can set them up, such as Deoxys-S, is helpful. Deoxys-S can also use Spikes, which greatly aid Normal Arceus in its sweeping endeavors by letting it use a Jolly nature.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Flamethrower / Dark Pulse
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Normal Calm Mind Arceus may seem like a bad idea, but Arceus has a few tricks up its sleeve to make this set worthwhile. The most prominent advantage Normal Arceus has over other Calm Mind Arceus is the ability to use Leftovers as its hold item, and the consistent recovery provided helps a lot in many scenarios. Another advantage is Normal Arceus's lack of common weaknesses, as it possesses a lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks. Lastly, if you desire a boost in power, Life Orb is also unique to Normal Arceus, but Leftovers is the recommended item.</p>

    <p>Calm Mind is the crux of this set as it allows Arceus to raise its Special Attack and Special Defense to sky-high levels and muscle through even Pokemon that resist its attacks. With its great bulk, Arceus can set up on a wide variety of Pokemon and pose an immediate threat to any team. Judgment is chosen in the second slot to provide Normal Arceus with reliable STAB. The third slot is a toss-up, and is used to patch up Normal's sub-par coverage. Flamethrower allows Arceus to beat Steel-types such as Scizor and Skarmory, however, Dark Pulse is also an option to give Arceus a better chance against Wobbuffet and Giratina-O. It is worth noting that Giratina-O can't actually touch Arceus, and has no recovery, so it will eventually be worn down by Flamethrower. Therefore, Flamethrower is usually the better choice so you aren't walled by Steel-types. Giratina, on the other hand, commonly carries Rest, so if you are without Dark Pulse you have no chance of beating it; thankfully, Giratina isn't too common. Recover is a necessity in the last slot to allow Arceus to heal its wounds and make it a near-indestructible sweeper. Likewise, a Timid nature should always be used as it allows Arceus to outspeed positive natured base 100 Speed Pokemon and below.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Arceus's vast special movepool, it has a few more options. Earth Power can be used to let Arceus hurt Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, but this leaves it wide open to Skarmory unless you forgo Judgment or Recover for Flamethrower; neither of which is recommended. Focus Blast is also an option to hit the aforementioned types, but the accuracy is disappointing, even if Arceus has the bulk to afford a few misses. If you desire a bit more power, Fire Blast is usable over Flamethrower, but once again the accuracy is disappointing; it also scores no notable KOs and leaves you open to Giratina-O thanks to its low PP. Shadow Ball can be used over Dark Pulse if you would prefer the occasional Special Defense drop rather than the chance to flinch, but the flinch can come in handy against foes such as Wobbuffet. Finally, a Silk Scarf can be used over Leftovers, but then you forfeit consistent recovery, Normal Calm Mind Arceus's claim to fame, to give it a 20% power boost to its STAB, which all Arceus have.</p>

    <p>Bulk Up Dialga makes a great partner to this set as it can easily take care of Blissey, Giratina-O, Giratina, and Tyranitar; all of which give Normal Calm Mind Arceus trouble. Dialga can easily switch into a Toxic from Blissey thanks to its Steel typing, and doesn't mind anything that Giratina-O, Giratina, or Tyranitar can throw at it as it can Rest off their attacks later. If you do use Dialga it is recommended you use Flamethrower on Arceus, however, as Dialga has trouble with Skarmory as well. As a word of caution, both Dialga and Arceus are weak to Fighting-type attacks, so beware of compounding weaknesses. Normal Arceus also has trouble with Latias, so Scizor makes a good teammate as it is able to switch into Latias's Dragon Pulse and use U-turn or Pursuit against Latias for massive damage. If you are using Scizor, Wobbuffet with Tickle in conjunction with Pursuit from Scizor can spell doom for Blissey who would otherwise wall Normal Arceus. Scizor also has the added bonus of being able to check Tyranitar, who takes next to nothing from Normal Arceus's common attacks and will eventually win with Defense drops from Crunch. Speaking of Tyranitar, it can also make a good teammate to Arceus, despite sandstorm negating Leftovers, thanks to its powerful physical Dark-type attacks. Tyranitar can easily take on Giratina-O, barring the rare Aura Sphere; Giratina and Ghost Arceus, provided they don't have Will-O-Wisp; and Latias, although be careful of Grass Knot even though it falls short of an OHKO. Tyranitar can also catch a fleeing Blissey with Pursuit, but hates the possibility of Blissey hitting it with status. Although Groudon doesn't directly counter anything except Tyranitar, it can activate the sun with Drought, which increases Flamethrower's power and decreases Thunder's accuracy, both of which are beneficial to Normal Arceus. Giratina-O and Latias can both make good pivots for Normal Arceus as they resist or are immune to Fighting-type attacks, but don't directly counter much.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: ExtremeSpeed
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Shadow Claw
    move 4: Overheat
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 10 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Choice Band bloosting its already massive Attack stat, this Arceus forgos Swords Dance to hit hard right off the bat with powerful STAB ExtremeSpeeds. Due to the fact that Arceus has to wear a Plate to change its type, this is also the only Arceus that can use a Choice Band. When using this set, it is important to capitalize on Arceus's revenge killing capabilities, and not playing it in a way that makes it inferior to Extreme Killer Arceus. However, when played correctly, it's also an absolute terror late-game, and once a team has been sufficiently weakened, Arceus can tear through it with its powerful ExtremeSpeed.</p>

    <p>The primary slot of this set should be obvious. A STAB, Choice Band-boosted ExtremeSpeed is insanely powerful, and can 2HKO nearly everything that doesn't have a resistance or immunity to it. ExtremeSpeed is what makes Arceus such a viable revenge killer, and can also allow it to sweep teams that have had their Steel- and Ghost-types removed from play. Arceus can check multiple threats that have managed to boost their Speed, such as Dragon Dance and Swords Dance Rayquaza, after some prior damage. With prediction, Earthquake and Shadow Claw allow Arceus to hit Steel- and Ghost-type Pokemon that may attempt to switch into ExtremeSpeed super effectively. Overheat is used in the final slot as it's Arceus's only way of doing significant damage to Skarmory. Even with the Special Attack-hindering nature and the minimal investment, two consecutive uses of Overheat (with Stealth Rock factored in) do a minimum of 99.3% to 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful Skarmory, securing a 2HKO unless you get two extremely low damage rolls.</p>

    [ADDTIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Even though this set focuses on the role of revenge killing, one must still remember that Arceus has amazing bulk. This means you can use Recover in Overheat's place if beating Skarmory is of no concern to you. It may seem silly to use a non-attacking move on a Choiced set, but Arceus causes so many switches it can find plenty of opportunities to use Recover. Although not recommended, Return can be used over ExtremeSpeed for more power and PP, but the loss of priority seriously hurts Arceus's revenging capabilities. Punishment can be used over Shadow Claw to hit foes who have obtained some boosts, such as Latias and Giratina-O, for a lot of damage, but the otherwise 50 Base Power is disappointing. Dragon Claw is also another move worth considering for the ability to hit Dragon-type Pokemon harder, but Shadow Claw is usually the better choice as the difference in Base Power is negligible, and Shadow Claw allows Arceus to do more damage to Lugia and Wobbuffet.</p>

    <p>The last change to consider when using this set is nature. Adamant doesn't secure many 2HKOs or OHKOs, but since the Pokemon you will be trying to kill most likely won't be at full health, Adamant can be useful for a bit of added damage that may secure you a KO. Jolly is still the recommended nature, however, as with it, Arceus can outspeed all base 100 Speed Pokemon and below.</p>

    <p>Wobbuffet paired with a Pursuit user, such as Metagross and Scizor, can be a great help to this set, as its number one counters are Giratina and Lugia; both of which fall to this potent combo when played correctly. A mixed Dialga with Bulk Up can help Arceus by luring out Groudon and smashing it with Draco Meteor, as Groudon can cause some problems for this set. Due to Arceus's lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks, Giratina-O makes a great partner for its ability to switch in and kill common users of Fighting-type moves. Heracross in particular struggles to do damage to Giratina-O, and is promptly killed by powerful Dragon-type attacks. Fighting Arceus can also cause this Arceus problems as Fighting Arceus isn't OHKOed by anything Normal Arceus has and can hit it with its super effective STAB. For this reason, Latias makes a great teammate. With 152 HP investment, Latias isn't even 3HKOed by Ice Beam from Fighting Arceus, meaning it can easily Calm Mind up against special versions and eventually beat them. Latias can also make a decent check to Lugia and Giratina, provided it has both Dragon Pulse and Thunder.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although not necessarily outclassed, there are a few sets and options that Arceus could make great use of if not for the Species Clause. The Species Clause means you need to choose the Arceus set you use wisely. A dual screen set with Light Clay can be used to allow Arceus's teammates an easier setup, or allow Arceus to stall out opponents with Toxic and Recover, but it is best left to other Pokemon. In a similar vein, Arceus can use a stall-based set similar to Lugia consisting of Recover, Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and a screen, but once again this is better left to other Pokemon. Thanks to its fairly decent movepool Arceus can run a somewhat effective mix set, but Normal-type STAB isn't the best move to base such a set off. Arceus can also make a decent lead with its access to Stealth Rock, wide variety of coverage moves, STAB ExtremeSpeed to pick off Focus Sash users, and the ability to use Lum Berry, but as it is with all the other options, Arceus can do much better than this. Finally, Perish Song is an interesting move in Arceus's arsenal, but Arceus only has Whirlpool for trapping and its pathetic 70 accuracy is a major letdown.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Although extremely dangerous, Arceus is perfectly counterable. Almost every Normal Arceus set falls to Giratina with Rest, bar the Calm Mind version with Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball. Giratina is also immune to ExtremeSpeed, and can put any physical sweep to a grinding halt with Will-O-Wisp. Lugia also takes little damage from ExtremeSpeed with its massive Defense and HP stats, and can outspeed Arceus to set up Reflect before Arceus can use Shadow Claw, and proceed to Roost off any damage taken. Both of the aforementioned Pokemon also have Pressure, making ExtremeSpeed's meager PP drain in seconds. Ghost Arceus can also take any hit from Arceus and Will-O-Wisp it. Fighting Arceus, in a similar vein, can take any hit Normal Arceus can dish out and respond with its super effective STAB. Skarmory completely walls any physical Normal Arceus without Overheat, and can phaze away any boosts Arceus has acquired with Whirlwind. Groudon doesn't like taking too many boosted hits since it doesn't have reliable recovery, but it can easily survive one or two attacks and phaze Arceus with Roar. While they cannot directly counter Arceus, Lucario and Heracross can do major damage with their STAB Close Combat. Blissey and Latias can wall the Calm Mind set and Toxic stall it and Calm Mind alongside it, respectively. Finally, Tyranitar also laughs at the Calm Mind set's attacks thanks to its massive sandstorm-boosted Special Defense, and can eventually beat Arceus if it gets lucky with Defense drops from Crunch.</p>
  2. Phantom_IV

    Phantom_IV

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    Curiously, does CM Normal do anything that other Arceus CM sets don't? Seems like we'll end up with a CM set on every Arceus at this rate, and they really don't differ by that much....

    Edit: Good points, Ditto.
  3. Ditto

    Ditto /me huggles
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    Normal Arceus can hold items such as Life Orb or Leftovers, which can be very useful for Life Orb. While each Arceus has a CM set, that is because of Judgment. If Judgment was physical, we would see a SD set for each Arceus. Each type has its pros and cons and can be used in different situations and on different teams. Therefore, we will make sure that all these different sets are posted.
  4. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    My thoughts:

    1) CM Normal is very much outclassed by other Arceus'. Normal is a pretty mediocre attacking option.

    2) Normal Arceus is probably not very good at pulling off defensive sets, due to having absolutely no resistances.
  5. giggity69

    giggity69

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    I disagree. Normal arceus may not have resistances (Bar a ghost immunity), but along the same line, it has only one weakness. Given its considerable bulk, arceus can take neutral hits fairly well, especially taking will-o-wisp into effect, and in most cases, recover off the damage with ease (Much like physically defensive mewtwo).
  6. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    As others have stated, Normal-type Arceus will get a CM set because Leftovers are god send. I can say this from experience having used many different kinds of Arceus, and the survivablility is extremely notable. Second, Life Orb is also useable on the CM set, and a 30% power boost is nothing to scoff at. Leftovers also make Wallceus viable. Only 1 immunity and no resistances come at the price of having only 1 weakness, which is a decent trade off.
  7. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    ExtremeSpeed or even Return seems like something to think about on the wall set. Many Ubers are biased towards Special Def (think Kyogre, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Lati@s, Palkia, Blissey) whereas the Ubers which are defensively biased (Forry, Skarm, Dialga, Groudon) tend to resist normal and beat you either way, or be Pokemon you can status stall out anyway. Return is marginally stronger than Judgment, and ExtremeSpeed's STAB 80 BP priority off 301 Attack is very cool even without any extra boosts.
  8. firecape

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    Good points ete, Return also has more PP which greatly benifits walling sets who intend to stall out an opponent, so I removed Judgment from the Dual Screen and Wall sets and put Return in its place. I changed the natures and EVs to reflect the shift the physical too; Judgment will still get a mention in AC because some teams may need it to have a special attack for whatever reason.
  9. firecape

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    Bump, (double post >_>) but I've finished all the skeletons, roar!
  10. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    [​IMG]
    I approve of Extreme Killer, obviously. I also approve of Calm Mind Normal atm, though I'm not exactly 100% sure on it. I don't really like Wallceus or Dual Screen because you're not using Arceus' incredible killing potential here. I mean, I'm sure Arceus does it well, but is it really worth it to sacrifice the sweeping potential? Dual Screens and Wallceus turn it somewhat similar to Lugia (with the ability to hurt things with Return I guess), but in a metagame where entry hazards run rampant, where Wobbuffet exists, Arceus should imo be using its offensive gifts.

    Choice Band is on the fence as well. It remins me of Choice Band Lucario, which isn't used due to the SDer's sweeping potential. That and it lacks the raw strength and surprise unlike Garchomp and Dialga and gets killed by Wobb rather easily,

    EDIT: fine

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  11. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    After the discussion on IRC, I've taken down CB, Wallceus, and Dual Screens.

    edit: upon further testing, I would like to keep CB.
  12. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Danned Beucer.
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    I think Adamant should be used on the Extreme Killer, and possibly the CB set. Mostly, you'll just be sweeping with Extremespeed, which is a priority move. If you look at the old Extreme Killer set, you'll see that it runs only 4 speed and an Adamant nature.
  13. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    Yeah, but you really need to outspeed Base 90s, especially the likes of Dialga and Giratina(-O).
  14. giggity69

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    On the restricted set outspeeding base 90's is paramount because he does not have max HP to help him survive attacks. If paired with a pursuit user to get rid of tina-o (And gengar, who should also be listed as a check for the SD set) then an adamant nature would be viable, but otherwise speed is preferable.
  15. Wild Eep

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    I've found from playing around with the Smogon damage calc that 100 HP/100 Def/100 SpD Farceus defenses give it bulk similar to 240 HP/0 Def/0 SpD Arceus.

    Example:

    Normal Arceus @ Nothing with 301 Attack using ExtremeSpeed:

    vs. 100 HP/100 Def/100 SpD: 21.4% - 25.4%
    vs. 240 HP/0 Def/0 SpD: 21.3% - 25.4%
  16. Great Sage

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    Farceus should always be +Speed unless there's something absolutely critical, "absolutely" meaning just short of a life-or-death matter. You might note in Optional Changes that a defensive set sometimes works, but is generally outclassed.

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  17. firecape

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    Gengar will not be listed as a counter due to the fact it does 66% - 77.8% with Focus Blast (which doesn't even take into account its 30% chance to miss), and dies to Shadow Claw even without a boost. On the issue of a pursuit user, that will be mentioned, especially alongside Tickle Wobbuffet
  18. giggity69

    giggity69

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    By no means is gengar a counter, but I still think that he should be listed as a check.
  19. Wild Eep

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    +Speed. With Farceus's greatly diminished power, I'd imagine it'll want the speed edge against the things you can't ExtremeSpeed effectively.
  20. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Adamant is worth noting as an option on Extreme Killer when using Silk Scarf imo, getting guaranteed OHKOs on 4 HP Kyogre and 4 HP Mewtwo after SR, Palkia, Shaymin-S, and Latias without SR, and a decent shot at OHKOing Garchomp after SR as well as non bulky Ho-Oh without is fairly massive. It also helps to almost guarantee a 2HKO on bulky Groudon. Losing to base 90s is big, but less of an issue when you are throwing out a priority attack that OHKOs most of them.
  21. firecape

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    @gigity I really don't think Gengar is that good of a check, as it will be OHKOed by Shadow Claw and no matter what health Arceus at you have a maximum chance of 70% to kill it due to Focus Blasts accuracy (if you are low enough for any of its other attacks to kill you other things can pick you off)

    @ete- I've added that as quote to AC, and would like others to weigh in on weather it should be AC or a slash (or not included if that's your stance.).
  22. Fireburn

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    IMO Adamant is worth a slash, the only things that you miss out on beating is Fast Dialga. You still outspeed the standard Giratina-O and that extra power may indeed come in handy since against all the other base 90's you're just ggonna ESpeed anyway. Although losing to Jolly Luke is a pain...

    Jolly should still be the primary option regardless.

    [​IMG]
  23. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Do you really need Jolly on either the Extreme Killer or CB? Extreme Killer is only hitting Giratina with Shadow Claw, and otherwise has Extremespeed. CB should also be using Extremespeed most of the time. Other Arceuses are the only things I think that matter...
  24. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Jolly ensures that Giratina-O and Hasty Mixed Dialga won't outrun you (I would use +Speed Giratina-O with max Speed in an Arceus metagame). Giratina-O is an issue in particular since Swords Danced Shadow Claw does not OHKO after 2 SR damages and a combination of Draco Meteor and Dragon Claw chip off about 75% of Arceus' health. Dialga cuts away at 70% of your HP using Life Orb Draco Meteor alone. Jolly Lucario will also survive +2 ES and OHKO with Close Combat

    Opposing Arceus is a bit less of an issue since they don't hurt much. That said, Rock and Steel are resistant to ES and Ghost is immune. Since Ghost is only weak to Shadow Claw and is immune to ES, not being able to Speedtie can be pretty troublesome depending on what it runs (for instance, Focus Blast from Ghost CM 2HKOes after Stealth Rock). Further along with that, when you're weakened, opposing ExtremeKillers have an easier time revenging you, as well as Rayquaza to an extent (though ES cuts off only ~26% of Arceus' health).

    As far as Choice Band goes Jolly becomes even more important because unlike the ExtremeKiller you're not going to have the freedom to just throw ESes around whenever you need to.

    That said, however, I do think Adamant is worth slashing in.
  25. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    I feel discussion of Adamant versus Jolly will make for a very interesting analysis.

    In the particular instance of Giratina-O, I feel that's a good argument for Recover Arceus. Recover on the DM and suddenly it can't do so much to you anymore, so it no longer becomes an issue. Does Dialga work like that?

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