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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]
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Awesome, really glad that we're suspecting Landorus-I; alongside Keldeo, it's really the last of the questionable pokemon in OU (without getting in to the whole weather debacle). I haven't made up my mind on it just yet, but I think it'll be a pretty interesting suspect test overall; my opinions as of now are something like:
*It's insanely powerful without any set-up
*101 speed is decent, but still outrun by a good amount of pokes before an RP
*Impossible to know whether it's RP or U-turn, which makes it hard to play against
*Focus Blast loses games. That said, you can't rely on a FB miss when trying to beat it, so this is a redundant point in some ways
*Immune to a lot of residual damage; can be hard to wear down in to priority/ revenge kill range
*The fact that it can actually run physical sets can be a nasty surprise, particularly seeing as it gets Sand Force and 125 base attack.
But yeah. Good luck everyone
*It's insanely powerful without any set-up
*101 speed is decent, but still outrun by a good amount of pokes before an RP
*Impossible to know whether it's RP or U-turn, which makes it hard to play against
*Focus Blast loses games. That said, you can't rely on a FB miss when trying to beat it, so this is a redundant point in some ways
*Immune to a lot of residual damage; can be hard to wear down in to priority/ revenge kill range
*The fact that it can actually run physical sets can be a nasty surprise, particularly seeing as it gets Sand Force and 125 base attack.
But yeah. Good luck everyone
I'd also like to know about this.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
If not dream balls
Why not just have it only show up as the ability when you hover? (like how when an intimidate user switches in, it only shows ability because it is known)
Because in the real game, we would know which varient it is
I'm GLaD that this Landorus test is finally happening, as well as the future Keldeo test, even though I don't really think either are broken (though perhaps some laddering may change my mind). At least Tornadus-T won't ruin anything this time.
Funny how after all these years we are not correctly simulating an ingame mechanic. I honestly not sure if it would have any relevance since a lot of the stuff that check sheer force can check sand force too. Anyway this is an interesting suspect. Landorus has the power to 2hko or 1hko almost anything bar its checks/counters. It has a great base 101 speed, sheer force+life orb boosted moves, great coverage and access to u-turn and rock polish/swords dance. Its best counter is cresselia which has hardly any ou usage. Bronzong comes second but it can fall to 2 focus blasts sometimes. It completely walls physical landorus though. Sheer force is hard walled by celebi and latias if it lacks u-turn. Chansey and blissey wall it regardless. Sand force is walled by hippowdon and skarmory. Ferrothorn is a hard check to scarf sets but falls against swords dance. Skarmory also falls against the rare gravity sets. Gengar can annoy sheer force landorus with sub disable by removing hp ice, though it must be careful of the rare psychic. Virizion can tank hits from sheer force barring psychic, outspeed and ohko with hp ice. Mamoswine and scizor revenge kills any variant. Keldeo, latios, starmie, alakazam and hp ice jolteon can revenge kill non scarf landorus though if theyre running scarf themselves they can revenge kill landorus regardless. Overall a strong mon with plenty of checks/counters but its unpredictability (most of it is courtesy of the lack of dream balls) and sheer power can often pull it through. If i get vote req ill probably vote no ban since i dont feel its broken.
Do you think we'll get around to banning (or even suspecting) Keldeo before X and Y come out?
Also, I can't wait to start playing again to see if LandoI is really as bad as implied. Before I left, LandoI was manageable (I was playing today and SDef 224 Celebi was actually able to wall Sheer Force HP Ice LandoI just saying, though I could see where U-turn'd be horrible. Then again, I don't see U-turn nearly as often as I think it should be used, considering this is one of the biggest reasons why it's suspect to begin with, no?)
Also, I can't wait to start playing again to see if LandoI is really as bad as implied. Before I left, LandoI was manageable (I was playing today and SDef 224 Celebi was actually able to wall Sheer Force HP Ice LandoI just saying, though I could see where U-turn'd be horrible. Then again, I don't see U-turn nearly as often as I think it should be used, considering this is one of the biggest reasons why it's suspect to begin with, no?)
jrp
Banned deucer.
not particularly a fan of the dual ladders, but i'll probably ladder for this if i have the time. I'm leaning towards landorus not being broken though, it is certainly a huge powerhouse, but it has multiple flaws that prevent it from being completely broken (it's weak to Aqua Jet and Ice Shard, which are relatively common (ice shard is), and it relies on the piss-weak HP ice to hit flying types, which can generally take a hit and retaliate. I'm not saying that i'm 100% do not ban, but i'm not completely convinced that it's broken either.
landy-i is just a toned down version of genesect. Not very broken in my opinion. Judging by the comments above, Keldeo is obviously going to get banned unless a miracle happens.
If both gets banned, it just means that rain SubCM jirachi has 2 lesser checks/counters.
If both gets banned, it just means that rain SubCM jirachi has 2 lesser checks/counters.
free excadrill
and thundurus
and this sorry sucker
also ban the frog
Hmm, Landorus-I is definitely a great Pokemon, but in my opinion Terrakion is better. I do not believe from what OU I've played that Landorus-I is broken, but I look forward to challenging that notion and playing in both ladders.
and thundurus
and this sorry sucker
also ban the frog
Hmm, Landorus-I is definitely a great Pokemon, but in my opinion Terrakion is better. I do not believe from what OU I've played that Landorus-I is broken, but I look forward to challenging that notion and playing in both ladders.
Keldeo is a bit easier to deal with if you know what hp it has. Hp bug deals with celebi but leaves you a bit walled by jellicent and tentacruel, still the absurd power of hydro pump in rain is gonna hurt hard.
I agree with this, at least for now. What are some of the things people have found broken about Landorus-I?
Meh, neither Keldeo nor Landorus-I really need a ban, as they both have numerous checks and counters that stop them hard (cough Celebi cough), it's more of a predicting and scouting game with them. If Lando is Sheer Force (which it almost always is) Keldeo, Rotom-W, Chansey, Blissey, and other Special Walls deal perfectly with it, Keldeo is a bit more problematic, but it's usually Scarfed, and Tentacruel, Jellicent, Latias, and Politoed all wall it hard, let's hope for the best.
I don't think keldeo is broken, too many things wall it. if it has hp electric it has a slim chance of getting past tentacruel and jellicent depending on the variant, but it's stopped by celebi, dragonite, special defensive jirachi and probably others that I can think of. if it has hp bug it can beat out celebi but its losing to all it's other counters. same goes for hp ice, it can get past celebi and dragonite now but tentacruel, jellicent and even vaporeon have it walled.
that said im too lazy, too terrible and too busy doing other things to ladder for this vote
that said im too lazy, too terrible and too busy doing other things to ladder for this vote
LilOu
PO poopyhead
I guess that you weren't alive to see this thread but here it is:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480809
Btw, all the recent suspect testing rounds lasted at least 15 days, so may i ask why this round is so short (only 11 days), especially when taking in mind that we have two ladders we need to get reqs?
ICONIC EDIT: my bad dude, read the wrong numbers from the calendar lol, will fix now
ICONIC EDIT: my bad dude, read the wrong numbers from the calendar lol, will fix now
Just to expand on the pokemon you mentioned;
Assuming: Timid Life Orb Landorus-I w/ 252 Special Attack
Focus Blast v. 4 HP /252 Sp Def Bold Blissey: 36.34 - 43.09%
Focus Blast v. 4HP / 252 Sp Def Bold Chansey: 32.39 - 38.47%
Focus Blast v. 232 HP/ 0 Sp Def Modest Rotom-W: 63.87 - 75.58%
Earth Power v. 4 HP/ 0 Sp Def Timid Keldeo: 102.77 - 121.29%
So, if Landorus-I has Rock Polish, then Keldeo cannot deal with it at all, as it's outsped and OHKO'd 100% of the time. Blissey and Chansey can wall it OK, though it's worthy of note that Blissey has a 25% chance to be 2HKO'd with SR + 1 layer of Spikes - but otherwise, both of these are solid. My only qualms about Chansey/ Blissey is that they're not particularly good in the current meta so ehhh. And the standard bulky offense Rotom-W set is cleanly 2HKO'd, so it can only check Landorus-I; I suppose you could invest in special defense, but that means you're either not hitting as hard, or you're taking some important physical hits worse (like with Keldeo).
My main problem with Landorus-I is just the whole Rock Polish versus U-turn thing. If it hasn't got U-turn, then Celebi and Latias wall it easily - but then it can also sweep easier by outpacing everything after an RP. Then, if it has got U-turn, it's almost impossible to wall outside of Blissey/ Chansey (and even then it can rack up damage via U-turn + Hazards, to get them in to kill range). But, without RP, it's also easy to outspeed.
The problem with all this being, it's almost impossible to know what it's running, and yet with one moveslot change, Landorus-I plays (and is beaten) quite differently.
(also, CBtar with pursuit to trap Celebi/ Latias to set up a Landorus-I sweep can be pretty obnoxious).
Definitely going to ladder for this when they go up.
I'll probably not going to vote to ban them because they aren't 100% broken, but I guess i'll see for myself. (Also Smogon has been banning way too much and gen 5 OU is worthless, Ubers is fun, but that's the only decent tier imo)
I'll probably not going to vote to ban them because they aren't 100% broken, but I guess i'll see for myself. (Also Smogon has been banning way too much and gen 5 OU is worthless, Ubers is fun, but that's the only decent tier imo)
yeh lets ban them. i remember the other day i played a choice banded terrakion and hit he 2hko my skarm after stealth rock. i think we should as well ban him. and let us not forget about choice specs latias. He needs to go as well. if you couldn't tell i'm being sarcastic. i think if they were to be banned then that would be ridiculous. landorus i isn't too threatening if your team is well built and same goes for keldeo. landorus is stopped by Special Defense Jellicent, Latias, Latios, Celebi, Blissey, Gengar, Starmie, Rotom-W, Keldeo and Gyarados. and keldeo can be easily played around with prediction. against another rain team, keldeo is pretty much useless. i personally think that both pokes aren't game changing and that they shouldn't be banned. they wouldn't even have a place in ubers.
It should be obvious to everyone by now that suspecting weather isn't going to happen, ever. The decision to suspect Landorus & Keldeo is the next best thing, so appreciate it for what it is, our last chance at balancing BW. Hopefully we can salvage a half decent metagame with those 2 threats gone.
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