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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Aldaron, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    People need to be reminded that usage is not equal to power. If, instead of Genesect, we had several Pokémon with identical stats and typing but different movepools, they may all have had a modest amount of usage, except maybe the Choice Scarf set. Being able to do a lot of stuff does not make a Pokémon broken.

    People are also exploiting Download in their arguments to "show" that Genesect is overcentralizing. No, that is just how Download works. People made similar preparations for Porygon-Z in very early DP, and they make similar preparations for Porygon2 in BW UU. If you're refusing to prepare for a good Download Pokémon, that's not the metagame's fault, it's yours.

    Finally, I wish that people would stop making the stupid claim that people want to drop stuff down just to keep "broken stuff" in check. There's nothing different between that and banning tons of stuff. It's just arbitrary power level and a very blind sense of metagame preference.

    I'm not saying that Genesect is or isn't Uber-worthy, but a lot of the stuff being said here is just plain exaggeration and I'd hate to see a Pokémon go to Ubers due to undeserved hype.
  2. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Cape, imagine Download on a good Pokemon. Yeah, that's Genesect.

    Porygon-Z has lower stats overall, no STAB U-turn, no Flamethrower, and no opportunities to really get into the battle and threaten the opponent.

    One thing I am legitimately baffled by: where are all the Volcarona? I would have thought for sure that thing would increase in usage in response to Genesect. It's actually a fantastic check to the Bug. Discourages U-turns, sets up on anything he throws out...Volcarona is simply not giving a toss about any Genesect.
  3. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Can we drop this argument once and for all?
    There is an obvious correlation between usage and power, as every single OU pokemon that has been banned to ubers so far can show.
  4. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Characteristics of ideal sweeper:

    High speed tier, good typing, good ability, resists most priorities, excellent attacking stats, wide movepool, unpredictability, few if any counters.

    Now tell me which one of these doesn't fit Genesect.

    Also on the subject of Volca, the thing is even though this thing is even better at countering Genesect than Heatran (it can set up on it and even boost it's SpA with Fiery Dance against duggy, and if SR is on their field oh boy) it is not a lead pokemon, it is a set up mon.

    You don't have Volca on a team to bring it out early in the match, you bring it after you securely have removed rocks, it's counters and found a good opportunity to set up. Frankly, with all the counters Volca has at the beginning of the match, your just wasting him for a chance to get a burn on Gene's U-Turn if he even decides to do that instead of just switching into a counter.

    Volcarona is a great mid game counter and can even steal a win from there, but anything else is just putting your team at jeopardy.
  5. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    I have a dumb question, sorry if I'm not allowed to ask this.

    It seems weird to ladder on two different ladders, especially when (as far as I know) they aren't different at all. So I was wondering what is the point of it? Want to test that it wasn't a fluke?

    Edit: NVM, one has Genesect while the other one doesn't... lolme.

    Also to keep this post somewhat on-topic what is typically your answer to stop genesect? A faster check? A dedicated counter like Heatran/Chansey? Hazards? A combo of the previous three?
  6. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    the problem is that genesect has u-turn and if you have stealth rock on the field...
    Volcarona can only come in to revenge kill it and have a free quiver dance if Genesect is locked into something, but volcarona cant switch-out on it.
  7. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Faster checks for me. I don't buy this nonsense that Genesect is the 'perfect Pokemon' because if there was one thing I wish he had, that'd be higher speed. 'Perfect' would be closer to, say...Excadrill. Controlled offense and defense down to a tee. There was really nothing you could to to stop him from getting what he wanted.

    Relying on faster checks is a terrible method though. One Rock Polish and it's your ass.

    EDIT: I know Volcarona is not a true counter, but I'm not even talking about that. It's just that under ideal conditions, he'd be able to take advantage of and sweep past Genesect, not to mention punish teams that rely on Genesect + Mamo/Breloom/Scizor as their sole checks for boosting sweepers (I'm guilty of this and I know other people are too). Bulky sets being able to switch in on U-turn and burn him is a bonus, but that plan could very well go out the window if he gets an Special Attack boost. 'Genesun', as another poster puts it, seems mercilessly rolled by Volcarona as well.
  8. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I fully plan on voting this round. I a terrible at laddering though, I am going to try to peak high but I have always had problems climbing the ladder. So what is a good amount of battles to receive a special application? I am thinking 100-150 battles on each ladder, is that enough? I have thanksgiving break all free so I can freely waste about a week of my life getting however many battles.
  9. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Genesect is a very good Pokemon in the metagame, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's broken. I heard someone (MikeandDec I think) mention that giving 4 Evs into SDef is a demenstration of how broken Genesect is. I wouldn't go far as to say that since those 4 Evs are usually useless anyway (take Terrakion for example, I would probably either invest in HP or SDef anyway).

    As for Genesect as a whole; it's a big threat to every offensive team alive. It's coverage is almost hard counter, and the fact that it gets Giga Drain, rendering Terrakion and Rotom-W useless is kind of saddening. I've found that it is easy to actually tell if the opponent is RP or not; simply the speed tier. If they have U-turn, they don't have RP, which makes it 100% times easier to play around. If people are going to start banning Pokemon because they can't scout it's set than that is ridicoulous. I'll give an example: Latios vs. Genesect. Take in the possibility that they won't RP until you're RP counter is out of the game (yes, they exist, these things called checks actually help you), and you can switch into something like Jirachi (who lives FThrower) or Terrakion (baned > RP Gene) and see whether they U-turn or not. Also, most players use Scarf Gene for revenge killing. So, at one point, you're opponent will try to do this. Most RP Gene players are reluctant to bluff Scarf until Mid Game since an Early Game sweep is virtually impossible considering they want to elimnate possible checks and get rocks up, so if they don't try to revenge in certain areas you can kind of assume it's RP. Also, I've seen a lot of RP Gene players set up on things that normally outspeed (usually, like I said, bluff midgame). I've caught lots of players doing this, and boy did they hate me when I used Earth Power with Lando rather than switch out to my I-Beam resist. Usually, you can also do what I did with Pokes that might be useless for that match (keeping Dragonite vs. Hail is kind of redundant when they have 2 Ice Shard users and like 1 or 2 Steel resist with Kyreum-I, and you can actually sack DNite to scout whether Gene is scarfed or not (since FPunch KOs)).

    My point is this: knowing Genesect's set makes it much easier to handle. Scouting it's set, for me, is not that hard considering that Band / Specs try to wallbreak, RP try to mid sweep, and Scarf'ers come in and spam U-turn. You can tell RP from Scarf since the scarf variants usually lead (lol) or introduce themselvs early in the match by using U-turn. EB Sets kind of lack that speed and only hurt stall, which means it isn't the best set for an offensive metagame right now. Specs / Band can easily tell by seeing the damage output on you're Pokemon (56% vs. Jirachi on U-turn = CB Gene). Did I mention that CB Gene spams u-turn, revealing choiced? Even the specs set sometimes carries U-turn.

    Another point I want to bring up: Volt-Turn has dramatically decreased. No, not the combination, but the playstyle. You usually only see Gene + Rotom-W and never full Volt-Turn teams anymore like you did in BW1 (when you had a 4 Volt-Turn core). Removing Genesect will make Volt-Turn drop, especially when Amo and Thundy-T make their lives that much harder.

    About the usage stats: they do and they don't count. I really don't think that usage demenstrates what is and isn't good. I think we can agree that much. It might show what the common cenensus is, and often it can also show if something is or isn't overrated, but you also got to understand that the newer players outnumber the better players. I think because of this, that whatever is easiest to use is most use.

    Sorry, just my rant. I'll post next time to either (a) respond to people who disagree with me '-' and (b) when I hit the req.'s (which may change my opinion, when I was on this morning I left with 1802, which was higher than anyone else on the ladder since no one is 2000s yet. Will try to hit before the week ends).

    ./rantend

    EDIT: To express my point further, the Duggy + Gene core ONLY WORKS IF GENE HAS U-TURN, instantly indicating a choice set. Also, the whole idea with Scarf Gene is to threaten with coverage and spam U-turn, which makes it easier to pinpoint, and ultimately easier to beat.

    EDIT2: Not to mention that the more the RP Gene has to bluff, the more chances you get at discovering it's not CS, meaning that, like I said, they won't bluff until mid / late game.
    gl
  10. BlankZero

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    I don't agree that Usage = Power. Yes, Gene is good. But think of what we were testing when he hit that magic 50% usage? That's right, Garchomp, something with a 4x ice weakness. What has a Very Strong ice type move? Gene and Mamo, but Gene has the upper hand with it.

    Also, there's a very strong sense around PS! of "can't beat em so join em". Look at Terrakion. Look at Breloom. Look at other strong sets and strong Pokemon. It's called Viability. We tend to gravitate towards the best Pokemon for the situation. When we think of a great special attacker, we think Genesect. Is this true of its attack? Not nearly as much, and there are better physical sweepers in OU already (DDancers, Scizor, Lando-T, Terrakion) and they mostly complement Gene to some degree.

    I think we will find that, while Gene is in fact a very good Pokemon with very few counters, it shouldn't just be banned because of its viability, and considering some of the other bans we have had, I find it silly due to how many Gene counters we've had (Blazekin and Exadrill) that would stomp all over Gene, but got the boot early on,
  11. SJCrew

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    Heatran is already #6. Is that not enough usage for you?
  12. Cyrrona

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    Have we considered waiving the Standard OU ladder portion for players that qualified in the last suspect test? Since Round 7 voters already met stricter ladder requirements in an identical metagame, asking that group to replay it seems redundant. The council's obviously free to shoot this down--just a thought!

    (also very excited for this test)
  13. MX42

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    In my opinion, its too soon to tell if Genesect is broken. True, it is an amazing sweeper, but we just finished a suspect test a few weeks ago, and Genesect has only been in use for about 3 months. Not to mention there is an easy way to counter each Genesect set.

    Scarf: Heatran can take nything, bar the super rare HP Ground. A faster Scarfer, like Salamence, Terrakion, and Latios just to name a few, can KO him quickly.

    RP: Heatran can take anything, and Geno, like other special beasts Volcarona and the Uber monster Mewtwo, suffers from four moveslot syndrome. Blot beam+Flamethrower lacks the stab to sweep, BoltBeam+ Bug Buzz hates steels, Flame, Ice and Bug Buzz does not fare too well against Rain. T Bolt, Flame, and Bug Buzz cant beat Dragons that easily. And giving up a slot for a rare move like Giga Drain or HP ground is not too wise of a decision.

    EB: Without that speed, Genesect is really easy to revenge, still walled by Heatran.
  14. nyttyn

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    While there will always be exceptions to the rule (Jynx being too good for NU, Ambipom being far higher then it should be), usage = power is one of the core tennants our tiers were founded on. People naturally gravitate towards using the more powerful pokemon, and that, in a nutshell, is why our tiers were made the way they were - the most used pokemon, the cream of the crop, would go into OverUsed, the lesser used pokemon would go into UnderUsed, and so on. Time and time again, the strongest pokemon who acquire massive usage statistics usually tend to be too good for a tier, with very, very few exceptions. You see it all the time in other competitive games - the most often used things are almost always either at the extent of how strong balance allows, or too powerful. Usually the later.

    On another note;

    Yes, this is true of every pokemon - unfortunately, Genesect is very much harder to know then other mons. With such a wide movepool and stellar base attack stats, he can do pretty much everything offensive - simply knowing what his movepool is will almost never be sufficent. U-Turn? You don't know the other three moves, and sometimes you won't even know if it's band, scarf, or a ballsy feiging Ebelt set. It uses a move other then U-Turn? Congratulations! You now know if it's special or physical and nothing else. Worse, if it uses rock polish, all you know is that it's a RP sweeper, and not if it's a physical or special one.

    Don't forget, if Rock Polish setup happens with the very few Genesect counters dead, then that's GG. The simple pressure of Gensect existing on a team is what makes it so much of a threat. Especially when Rock Polish is so game ending with just a single turn of setup, with so few checks and counters (Especially since it resists almost all priority).
  15. alexwolf

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    Very nice and thought out post Shurtugal. I agree with most of it, but here are my objections:

    1. Expert Belt is not only useful against stall, it is useful for every team out there, as it is the best lure bar none, for almost any sweeper. If you go and take a look at the thread about which Genesect set is the best, you will see plenty of people mentioning the EB set. RP Genesect is one of the best sweepers to use against offensive teams, i agree, but what about balanced or even the occasional semi-stall teams? Heatran, Blissey, Chansey, Gyarados, Conkedlurr, Kyurem(-B), Ninetales, Tyranitar, Volcarona, Rotom-H and Victini all are pretty good checks/counters that any balanced team can use. Yeah i realize that Gyarados, Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, and Victini can be screwed by the appropriate move (Bug Buzz or Tbolt), but this is going to happen only the minority of the times. Balanced teams have plenty ways to deal with RP Genesect, unlike offensive teams. But because offensive teams are everywhere, and RP Genesect dominates them, this set ends up being the best sweeping set of Genesect. Opening the way for a sweeper, which is what EB Genesect does, is not inferior to actually sweeping, which is what RP Genesect does. People often forget the support pokes, and keep their eyes only on the big guns, which is a big mistake and can lead to many losses. There is a reason that every good player runs at least one lure on their teams, when they want to sweep with another offensive poke. This is because any good player will try as hard as he can to keep his checks and counters alive against the poke that has the better chances to end the game, aka your sweeper.

    2. U-turn is not used only on choiced sets. This is easy to get if you read the above paragraph. EB set is as good as RP imo, and it uses U-turn to great extend.

    As for my opinion about Genesect's tiering... I agree that once you learn Genesect's set it is much easier to handle, but the simple fact that you can suffer huge damage until you do is what makes it broken. It is true that most of the times you can tell the difference between the RP set and any other set, simply because the first is never played early game, where the latter is (even ignoring that if RP Sect uses EB it can bluff a choice set early game). But there is still the guessing game between the choiced and the EB sets. Simply use a sand team with EB Landorus-I and EB Genesect, and use another more unexpected scarfer, and watch how easy it is to make the opponent guessing all the time, and finally lure and kill the pokes that stop your sweepers. You don't even have to use another Scarfer. Simply by using those two together with either Scarf or EB, will put a huge strain to your opponent. Then there is the fact that most of Genesect's checks and counters are swiftly killed by Dugtrio, which comes in safely via U-turn. This leads to crappy and ridiculous measures, such as Shed Shell RestTalk Heatran. Using RestTalk without even Lefties in 5th gen. A strategy that was almost nonviable before Genesect was released, became one of the best ways to counter Genesect, alongside with outclassed UU pokes (Rotom-H). Now if this isn't a very strong sign that something is broken then i don't know what is.

    So i believe that Genesect is broken, because of its unparalleled versatility, its ability to threaten every type of team with ease, its ability to support a team like no other poke can by luring and killing pokes with the EB set, the fact that there is almost no reason to not use Genesect in your team which leads to a decrease of diversity, and because it puts a huge strain on team building. I realize that some of those criteria might be very objective, but let's be honest; many bans that happened the past years were objective too.
  16. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    Over the past few months we've seen the metagame change drastically. However, it's not like the introduction of a different threat, such as garchomp, where the metagame adjusted to better counter it, this metagame is about genesect. Dfa's point about the lowering of ivs and such? That's just a testament to genesect's effect. It's being used because its good--too good to the point it's necessary for sucess
  17. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    I'm not going to go into the details of anything because I'm on my phone, but I just wanted to respond to the last point ntyytn made about rock polish genesect. I think you are highly overestimating genesects ability to get the sweep. Of course rp genesect does its main work when all it's counters are gone late game - that's how any pokemon works. It is also not that easy to set up genesect in the first place. Something that many people seem to look over when they talk about download is the fact that you have to come in on the right pokemon to get the special attack boost. Combine that with the fact that your opponent should know you're rp by the fact that you've held onto genesect so long, and you simply can't set up like you normally would. That and the fact that if you don't have the correct coverage move makes it much harder to sweep than people are making it seem.

    Also the notion that genesect needs to be on every good team is so silly I won't even attempt to respond to that....
  18. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    Yes, but no other pokemon can do it as effectively, as well, or as reliably as Genesect does. He only needs one boost, and then that's it. Download is situational, yes, but it's also amazing, and not quite as hard as you make it out to be to get. And yes, without the proper coverage move it's harder to sweep, but with BoltBuzzBeam coverage resisted only by a handful of pokemon who are actually useful, and with none of the glaring nasty quad priority weaknesses associated with Dnite and Salamence, two other very nasty game ending sweepers, it does its job very well. Not to mention it not only resists Ice Shard, but also resists Extremespeed and Sucker Punch. Plus, by the point where the opponent 'realizes' it's RP (it could simply be the time hasn't come to bring a scarf/band out, or that you're bluffing) the handful of genesect checks/counters they havemight just be dead.

    And while Genesect doesn't need to be on every good team, it makes almost every team better simply by being on it, and is nine times out of ten the best use of a slot over something else.
  19. Lord of Bays

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    Genesect doesn't need to be on every good team, but he literally makes any team better. Again: Any team, including stall teams, are improved by a Genesect.

    People are saying left and right that we're overestimating RP Genesect, and how he's hardwalled by a few choice special walls. Do you people realize just HOW offensive the metagame is and how much you have to lose by running a really dedicated wall like that? Okay, I could run Blissey to serve as a check against RP Genesect, who completely bends my latest team over, there's absolutely nothing I can do against him once he gets up to +1/+2. Whoops! This particular Genesect was an EBelt set and he just U-turned out to Specs Keldeo who then proceeds to sweep me because I traded my more offensively inclined Keldeo check for Blissey.

    There is no room for the average player to run anything more defensive than Balanced or Bulky Offense. Yes, there are some stand-out players that are really fucking good at what they do and have had success with Stall and Semi-Stall, possibly thanks to the DotT project, but we're not all Smogon Tour champs.

    Please, please don't put words in my mouth and say that I'm calling for the boot because I'm bad. No, I'm not very good (Hell, I've struggled to break 1600 with my current team), but it's a lose/lose situation with Genesect. I think you're highly underestimating just how difficult it is to stop him once he's attained his boost. Again: So you're running a slower, bulkier team so RP Genesect can't walk all over you. Too bad the other five Pokémon on your opponent's team are probably pretty good at crushing walls specifically so Genesect can have his way with any given team.
  20. PttP

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    If I had a free turn I would much rather have a dragon dance salamence but that in itself is a different story. It really isn't that easy to get a boost seeing as how some of the most easy things to set up give genesect a atk boost rather than spdef (ferrothorn jirachi rotomw etc). Most of the time you have to rely on bluffing a set in order to get the rock polish up safely. Bug buzz + Ice beam + thunderbolt coverage really isn't that good coverage when you consider that suddenly terrakion and rotom-w becomes a good check to it..the better option is the one with Giga drain over bug buzz but then that just replaces its stab...

    I'm trusting that the opponent of genesect isn't an idiot and can see the roles of each pokemon by the time it is late game. There is really no bluffing of move sets with rp genesect because of the fact that its the only set that wields a life orb so that in itself should give you a pretty good idea of what it is. Speak honestly, nobody is going to keep a scarf genesect concealed that long - same with specs and band.

    I am by no means saying that genesect is a bad pokemon, but honestly if you are saying that every team benefits from genesect that is pretty naive. Myself personally, I don't like using genesect because of the fact that it doesn't perform well as a steel type and I don't need a scarfer who can't revenge what it should be able to

    edit: it really isn't that hard to stop him by the time he's set up...standard rain has no problem with it because tentacruel stomps all over it (thunderbolt is not a viable option...) if genesect doesn't have Giga drain then a ton of pokemon beat it such as jellicent and terrakion and keldeo, while if it does have Giga drain then shit like kyurem b does well against it
  21. tml

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    Not taking part in this because laddering is boring af, I just hope this test ends with a genesect ban so I can enjoy playing BW OU again. Personally my favourite set is rock polish because it will always find a chance to set up. Arguably it is easily countered, but in the current offensive metagame, these counters see less usage and are not difficult to dispose of.
  22. Lord of Bays

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    Tentacruel stomps over RP Genesect? That's really accurate, and too bad because Dugtrio completely stomps on Tentacruel. If you ran specially defensive on Tentacruel just to be safe (because +1 Tbolt wrecks physically defensive Tenta) you're just OHKOd most of the time by Focus Sash 'Trio (EQ does a minimum of 92%).

    Rock Polish Genesect is probably the worst thing to happen to the Pokémon metagame since Stealth Rock. The general power and speed of the metagame forces offensive teams, which RP completely destroys.
  23. PK Gaming

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    both of them have genesect...

    the point of testing on suspect & the general ladder is to see how players do in 2 different environments. (General ladder = regular players, Suspect ladder = competive minded players)
  24. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I'm not wanting to get off topic from the thread, but I wouldn't consider Stealth Rocks bad at ALL to the meta game, it keeps dangerous sweepers such as Volcarona and Salamence in better check, while giving Rapid Spinners and certain underrated Pokemon a chance to shine due to their access to SR.

    Anyways, I was going to try to ladder this time around, but after finding out that I have to ladder not one, but TWO I'm just going to sit this one out. I'm honestly not going to cry if Genesect stays in OU, but I would prefer it to stay out of OU for a little while. So far playing after playing a few suspect rounds, I'm actually enjoying the old OU without Genesect. I don't have to worry about those little cry babies rage quit once they lose their RP Genesect at the beginning of the match. Only problems I'm seeing without Gene is the overabundance of Dragmag and Mono Dragon type teams. Scarf and RP Gene can pretty much OHKO any Dragon with a +1 Ice Beam except D-Nite with Multiscale and Kyurem-B. I'm not looking forward to people complaining about how OP dragons will be if Gene goes away, because I'm already seeing enough of that on the Showdown chat room. People need to take a step back, and stop assuming what will happen, and look at how Gene is effecting OU.
  25. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    That's what I thought when I skimmed the first post at first, but OP did say

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