np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 2 - U Can't Touch This (UPDATE: EVASION UNBANNED!)

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Nov 28, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    555
    Made it

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    I only ran into one evasion team, and it wasn't very effective at all. When I used it myself, I had similar results. Even though evasion has been disallowed because of an inherent luck factor it introduces, I don't think the Ubers environment struggles to deal with it at all. In most instances, I think evasion is more trouble than it's worth, and I don't see it as worth keeping banned.
  2. VaporeonIce

    VaporeonIce

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    232
    252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Ninjask: 207-243 (63.69 - 74.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Ninjask survives with enough to make a Sub on turn 1 (which was the first move), use Protect on turn 2 (remember, Sub's in tact) and pass turn 3. So actually, the pass was guaranteed against Arceus, barring a crit (or, like, Overheat or something).
  3. jrp

    jrp [18:22] <chaos> jrp x treecko is my favorite shipping

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    775
    You could usually lead with a Dragon Tail 'mon

    usually BP people ragequit the instant ninjask's recipient gets dtail'd out
  4. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Boss characters make appearances in other stages
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,999
    Ah yes, you are right Ninjask would have been able to pass the speed boost if he ESpeed spammed but not a Substitute (ESpeed hits before Baton Pass). Knowing the calcs, the smartest plan would have been to Shadow Claw spam until he could KO with the ESpeed. This way Ninjask wouldn't have been able to set up a Sub nor safely pass into Drifblim. (he tried to SD off the bat and then spammed Shadow Claw instead of Espeed)
  5. GG Unit

    GG Unit

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    91
    That's not foolproof against a good BP team though. You basically need a Dragon with >120 base Attack or offensive Groudon to be guaranteed to break a 252/252+ Ninjask's sub. Plus, if Ninjask just spams Sub+Protect, there's a ~40% chance at least one of five Dragon Tails misses.

    Outside of Haze or Perish Song, the best bet is to have a mon with something like Roar or Taunt that also has the potential to take out Espeon if they choose to switch it in.
  6. jrp

    jrp [18:22] <chaos> jrp x treecko is my favorite shipping

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    775
    giratina-o.

    it can shadow sneak once the ninjask user gets low on heatlh if need be
  7. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule I suck.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    644
    Wasn't the best course of action simply using E-Speed on Drifblim during his Disable turn so the disables that instead? I mean it's not like he needed E-Speed all that much against Furai as Shadow Claw hits 4/6 members for SE damage.
  8. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,820
    The things is, that you don't usually expect Drifblim to run it. However, I almost always go for the Substitute first, just in case Arceus goes for the Swords Dance, or as you said, the E-Speed. Then, I Minimize, and Disable that Shadow Claw, leaving Arceus prone to my BP chain.

    BP chains aren't really that good, but they're a lot of fun. You need everything to go just as planned; it's either you 6-0 or you lose. Every member has its role, and it must stay alive throughout the entire match to win the game. Mawile can be a nice addition for those chains if you want the Normal, Ghost, and Dark resistance, which can be quite a pain.
  9. Imma Fly

    Imma Fly Who needs wings when you have Rokushiki?
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    326
    This post is simply to identify myself as the alt DerpBoys who has met the reqs.
    Here is the link:

    http://trixarian.net/paste/302db

    *I tried uploading the image a few times to the page, but I still failed and therefore I settled with giving the link. Hope it would suffice though.

    Ps. This screenshot was taken on 10 December, so my ranking may have dropped since then, but I was rank #20 at the time of my completion of the reqs.
  10. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    694
    Just question.. When will the identification thread be posted? It says in the description that there will be a separate thread, but many people seem to post here instead.

    It's kinda confusing, could someone clarify this?
  11. jrp

    jrp [18:22] <chaos> jrp x treecko is my favorite shipping

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    775
    yeah, a lot of us (me included) post here just so nothing happens when it comes time to identify.

    There'll eventually be an identification thread though
  12. Rediamond

    Rediamond

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,982
    I laddered up to about 1800 for the day and stopped. I saw one Evasion Team total, and that was underwhelming. In a tier where one turn of setup can turn virtually anything into an unstoppable force bound to take down or heavily damage at least one Pokemon, having a chance to make it slightly less probable the opponent hits (and likely KO's) is almost irrelevent. There are very few Pokemon who would ever use Double Team over another setup move, which should prove that Evasion is far from broken.
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,802
    Sorry if I'm being a pain, but when is the voting thread actually going up? It was scheduled to be posted last Saturday, but nothing yet. I understand that Jibaku is really inactive and bojangles has apparently disappeared, so hopefully some other mod or admin will step up and take this over for the time being. All we need is a voting thread.
  14. Theorymon

    Theorymon Watch The Space
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,204
    Well folks just in case you didn't get the news, Evasion got unbanned! heres how the votes went.

    Do Not Retain: 18
    Retain: 8
    Abstain: 2


    As for the next test... well the SPL tournament might delay that. We'll have to talk about this in the Ubers council, but something will be posted as soon as we decide on how we are gonna tackle the last clause tests!
  15. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,802
    Shocked that something so obviously uncompetitive and skill-less was unbanned, but hey, if the majority deems it to be not broken than who am I to argue? ._.

    seriously guys what are you doing, I lost to Drifblim because of this

    20:05 kd24 yeah lavos
    20:05 Lavos hey
    20:05 kd24 agree entirely on the ubers thing
    20:05 kd24 minimize bp drifblim is ridiculous
    20:05 Lavos idgi man
    20:05 kd24 and it makes no sense to unban evasion
    20:05 kd24 as a whole
    20:05 Lavos it's not that evasion is a good strategy
    20:05 kd24 even if its not very good its just
    20:05 Lavos but it's completely uncompetitive
    20:05 kd24 so non competiive
    20:05 Lavos and messes up good players sometimes
    20:05 Lavos for no good reason
    20:06 kd24 all it is is a way for bad players
    20:06 kd24 to luck their way
    20:06 kd24 to beating good players
    20:06 kd24 decisions that bridge the skill gap
    20:06 kd24 are never a good idea

    that pretty much sums it up
  16. kd24

    kd24 people be stoopid
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,241
    I think this was a really bad decision for a lot of reasons, but I really wasn't vocal during the process so I can't really complain. That being said, fighting minimize Baton Pass Drifblim is gonna be the worst thing ever =[
  17. Focus

    Focus I'm waiting you...

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Messages:
    622
    So THIS is what the Mayans predicted...

    What else can I say? Every time I faced evasion moves or tried them myself, they were not only pointless, but actually a liability. Double Team just sucks, and only Drifblim seems to have a competitive use for Minimize. Even then, Baton Pass is significantly harder to consistently win with in Ubers than a conventional team archetype. Evasion moves are an additional luck factor, but apparently very minor one. I wouldn't feel right about banning Brightpowder or Confuse Ray for the same reason. I'm not saying that unbanning evasion moves was for sure the right thing to do (I'm not fully convinced it was), but rather that if evasion moves can be at all a detriment to the metagame, this testing period sure has not shown that to me.
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,318
    Lavos Spawn / kd24, if Evasion ever proves to be problematic to this metagame, we can always re-visit it. It's not the end of the world :o
  19. Hugin

    Hugin

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    104
    Rain+Thunder. Spam it. If you see a Drifblim in the preview, lead with Ogre, lock yourself into Thunder if they lead with Drifblim. If they lead with something else, play normally, if Drifblim comes in, switch to something with Thunder, lock yourself in. Ogre outspeeds, so you should never face a Drifblim with more than one turn to set up, and it can't live more than a single hit without a sash. DB uses Minimize, you OHKO. DB uses sub, you break it. As long as you're faster, it loses, and even if you're slower, at worst it can pass a sub or a single Minimize. Not exactly gamebreaking.

    There are 2 exceptions. If you're running without Rain(or with a Kyogre without Thunder), which is relatively rare, then counters become harder. In that case, Perish Song, Haze, or similar Phazing moves that don't have accuracy are the best bet, and can usually fit easily on a team(Darkrai).
    Alternatively, you might get Mean Looked with a scarfer locked into Focus Blast or similar, then have that passed to Drifblim. In that case, you got outplayed, which is your own fault.
  20. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,820
    Pretty much what Pocket said. If any set proves to be broken in the metagame, namely Minimize Driflblim, we can always go for a complex ban. We all agree that Double Team sucks, it just takes too much time to setup, but Minimize is a different story. I think we need to let the metagame adapt first, and then see the impact of Evasion moves on it; only then we can decide if it's broken or not, if it's competitive or not, and it it's skill-less or not.
  21. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Would it be possible to get Mini/DTeamPass banned, but not evasion moves in general? I think it could be a voting option, at least. Thoughts?
  22. Dice

    Dice sonder

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,749
    Eh, seems too complex for most peoples' tastes.. As Furai said, "Basically, Evasion is High Reward, Even Higher Risk; not worth it. "

    I pretty much agree. If you get hit while setting up, you're down a Poke & SubDisable is relatively easy to play around. It's not the end of the world imo, that was yday.
  23. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    SmashPass is banned in RU already, though, but I see where you're coming from. Slippery slope.
  24. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,126
    Smashpass was also broken across all of its users.
  25. IbanezObsession

    IbanezObsession

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    95
    This really is going to suck the life out of the Ubers meta...Considering it's one of the only balanced right now, unbanning something as uncompetitive as this just makes me shake my head. I'd like to know why anyone would want that unbanned.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)