np: LC - Tiny Dancer (VOTE HERE)

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I'm not 100% sure that this is what's going on but in case it is....

The way, without eliminating one of the two suspects in question, to tell what's broken between two things that can be used together is to look at the affects on other Pokemon.

Assuming Zuruggu + Evolution Stone is broken (which is highly debatable in the first place):

If Evolution Stone breaks other Pokemon as well, then the culprit is Evolution Stone. If Zuruggu is broken or equally hard to beat without Evolution Stone, then the culprit is Zuruggu. If neither are broken without one another, but broken together, then it is the still Pokemon itself - it abuses the item, the item doesn't abuse Zuruggu.

Hopefully that's cleared up.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
I'm not sure if anyone's looked at it yet, but the move Little By Little might be our "counter" to Inconsistent. It is a 100% accurate, 70 Base Power, Normal Type move that ignores Evasion and Defense boosts.

Little Cup Pokemon that get it include:
Lickitung
Rhyhorn
Munchlax
Totodile

Larvitar
Slakoth
Cranidos
Dokkora
Zuruggu

Sandshrew
Nidoran (M & F)
Krabby
Cubone
Teddiursa
Makuhita
Corphish

(Potentially Good Users are Bolded.)
 

Nails

Double Threat
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not really. they still get tons of boosts by spamming subs and protect, and can simply ko the user. or they get defense boosts and their subs aren't broken. It's nice, but I don't think it stops it from being broken.
 
not really. they still get tons of boosts by spamming subs and protect, and can simply ko the user. or they get defense boosts and their subs aren't broken. It's nice, but I don't think it stops it from being broken.
Going to have to agree with Nails. If every team runs 3/4 "Little by Little" mons, that's still broken.

It's similar to the argument of using Aerial Ace to combat Double Team. It's just not feasible/competitively viable.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
Whilst I agree that it is not a counter as such, it does make Inconsistent teams easier to deal with if you don't let them set up. And Inconsistent's main selling point has always been the defense/evasion boosts, simply because it makes it impossible to counter them.

With Little by Little, if the first boost is an evasion boost it doesn't really matter. Switch in a Scarf Cranidos or something as it Protects, and then use Little by Little to break the sub / KO it.

Whilst it is not a fool proof counter, it at least makes Inconsistent more manageable.
 
Whilst I agree that it is not a counter as such, it does make Inconsistent teams easier to deal with if you don't let them set up. And Inconsistent's main selling point has always been the defense/evasion boosts, simply because it makes it impossible to counter them.

With Little by Little, if the first boost is an evasion boost it doesn't really matter. Switch in a Scarf Cranidos or something as it Protects, and then use Little by Little to break the sub / KO it.

Whilst it is not a fool proof counter, it at least makes Inconsistent more manageable.
I still think this is the same as the Evasion Clause argument, though. You could use Vital Throw to hit that +6 Blissey and KO it. But outside of Aura Sphere, "always-hit" moves are terrible and the community agreed that running them simply to have a chance was ridiculous.

I feel that the same will happen with Inconsistent.
 

Nails

Double Threat
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Thunder is currently the only viable counter to inconsistent in OU that I have found, and the lack of auto-rain in LC means even that isn't viable. All other 100% accuracy moves are too weak.
 
I personally think that we should keep Evo Stone unless it makes sweepers broken (as opposed to being broken on them).

I kind of like the break from the constant HO that was Gen4 LC. Varies up the tier a little more. Makes different playstyles viable.
 
Inconsistent is so hard to counter - more so than Minimize / Double team, to be honest - because it is, in fact, inconsistent.

You cannot PLAN to counter this ability. You don't counter something like a +2 SpA Bidoof / Remoraid using Ice Beam / Surf with a Roar Hippopotas. You can't counter a + 2 Atk Remoraid / Bidoof with Waterfall / Return with a Whirlwind Munchlax. You can't counter anything with an Aerial Ace Gligar - especially when it has +2 Def.

You can't control what stat it boosts - your counter cannot possibly be 100%.
 
Is Thunder perfectly accurate in Rain? I thought it was just 100%.
Thunder

Type Power Accuracy PP Priority Damage Target
Electric 120 70% 10 0 Special Single non-user

Has a 30% chance to paralyze the target. Cannot miss in rain, but is only 50% accurate in sun. In Diamond and Pearl versions, if it is raining, Thunder can hit through Detect and Protect 30% of the time. In Platinum and Pokémon Battle Revolution, a successful execution of Protect or Detect will always block Thunder even if it is raining.
@ Nails, There's Blizzard for Bidoof.

And Machop Dpunch.
 

v

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Nominations will remain open until Midnight tonight in EST, which is in a little over 10 hours.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
No Guard increases accuracy to 100%. It doesn't mean it'll always hit, like Thunder in rain or Blizzard in hail.
That is incorrect.
Smogon said:
Any attacks used by and on this Pokémon will never miss. They ignore evasion and accuracy modifiers, and will also hit through Bounce, Dig, Dive, Fly, and Shadow Force. If a Pokémon with No Guard is using Detect or Protect, or if a No Guard Pokémon is targeting a Pokémon using Detect or Protect, moves have 100% - X% accuracy, where X is the move's normal accuracy. In other words, any moves used would hit if they usually don't, and wouldn't hit if they usually do. This takes into account accuracy and evasion, as well as the base accuracy of the move. Moves that ignore all accuracy modifiers, including OHKOs, do not have a chance to break through.
 
Since the nominations end today, I'm going to attempt to nominate Gligar again, this time with more proof.

First of all, let's take a look at its stats at lvl 5, with 236 HP/236 Spd EV spread, and a Jolly nature:
HP 26
ATK 14
DEF 17
SPA 9
SPD 13
SPD 19

The first thing you notice is how high Gligar's overall stats are compared to the rest of LC. Every one of its stats is above 13, except for Sp atk (which you won't be using anyway). 14 ATK is excellent for no investment (I bet some people put 236 ATK EVS, giving it 17 ATK), and it is one of the most defensively bulky pokemon in LC with 17 defense, again with no investment. No big deal, you can pummel it with special attacks ,right? Wrong. The Pre evolution stone gives it 25 Def and 19 Spdef, making it even harder to take down.

And unlike most super bulky pokemon, like Shieldon or Duskull, it can actually hit back. A STAB Earthquake, Aqua Tail, and Stone Edge easily kill most LC pokemon. 19 Speed makes it one of the fastest pokemon in LC, only outspeed by Elekid and Diglett, to my knowledge. Elekid is pwned by Earthquake, and Diglett dies to a constrict from a Tentacool, so those are out of the question. The other common 19 speed pokemon are Staryu, Ponyta, Misdreavus, and Murkrow (maybe not common, but I've used them on my team before), and their defenses pale in comparison to Gligar.

Gligar is so versatile it isn't funny. Need a wall? Get Gligar. Need a choice sweeper? Get Gligar. Need a revenge killer, or a counter to 50% of LC? Gligar's your scorpion. You have no idea what the Gligar you are facing has until it uses a couple moves, and the opponent can change up EVs, allowing it to be an essential part of any team.

Not only are its defenses high, it even gets to Roost first to heal off what little damage you did to it, and remove its flying type for a turn. Unless you do more that 50% damage, and are faster than it, it is insanley hard to take down Gligar. Ground/Flying is one of the best typings defensively, being only weak to Ice and Water, Immune to Electric and Ground, and resistant against fighting, poison, and bug. The ice weakness isn't so bad, because Roost nearly always go first, due to its high speed. Aqua Jet and Ice Shard do nothing off of its 25 Def, and it is able to heal off the damage you did with Roost. For example, my Phanpy did 43% damage with Ice Shard, while the opponent just spammed Roost.

Maybe it's extreme bulkiness is due to the Pre evolution stone, but Gamefreak might have just as well released an item that boosts pre evos att and sp att by 50%.

I've been talking most about defenses so far, but Gligar can kill a bunch of things too, especially with a choice band set. I'm pretty sure that Ground/Rock/Water is unresisted in LC, giving it excellent coverage. 19 speed is really helpful, making it kill many pokemon without even being touched. Why use a pokemon that has to rely on choice items when you can use Gligar?

Gligar has no counters, except for maybe a pokemon with choice scarf and ice beam. And it can just switch out, kill the "counter", and then sweep the rest of your team with Gligar. I'd like for someone to try to name a pokemon that can easily counter Gligar, and do more than just counter it. Bronzor is a decent check, but what can it do back, reflect it away?

No other pokemon has the speed, power, and defenses of Gligar in LC. I've heard a lot of talk about banning Zuruggu, but from my experience Gligar is 3x more common, and a lot more threatening. Zuruggu has to use Dragon Dance to actually do damage, while Gligar already has everything it needs. I'm not saying that Zuruggu is bad, because it sweeps everything with a dragon dance, but Gligar doesn't need to waste a turn preparing. Therefore, I nominate Gligar to be tested.
 
Voltorb also outspeeds Gligar (and Scyther and Sneasel but "whatever").

Evolution Stone was a great help to Gligar, especially SD Roost Gligar. I've used SD/Roost/EQ/Aqua Tail to success due to its great bulk, access to recovery, high Speed, and great Attack. Ground + Water is "good" coverage in LC, since Mantyke is relatively uncommon [atm] and most Grass-types are either part Poison or not all that great. Most of Gligar's few checks can be seen in team builder and taken out beforehand.

The most annoying thing about Gligar is that last generation it was much less threatening. Pokemon like Houndour and HP Ice Diglett were pretty set against Gligar because it was less bulky. Now, with Evo Stone, it can take a shitload of "random HP Ices" and non boosted Special moves. Obviously priority damage doesn't do as much now either.

I don't really think its broken though. Everytime I see Gligar in team preview I know I have to be careful, but I rarely get swept by it (with a team of Hippo/Tesshi/Baruchai/Gligar/Wynaut/Pururiru, not exactly your most SD Gligar-proof team in the world .-.). If you run Snover or a Scarfed Ice Beam poke, Gligar generally isnt a problem. It's just another poke that you have to actually prepare for in team building or else you're probably going to get swept by it. Unlike something like Inconsistent though, its checks really aren't that unreasonable.
 
Er, Gligar does need boosts. Holding Evo-stone means it can't hold Life Orb. Without SD, it has a lot of trouble breaking through fellow pokemon holding Evo-stone.

Also, STAB Ice Shard eats it anyway.

Evo-stone makes it a bitch with SD/Roost/EQ/Aqua Tail or Stone Edge, but Gligar isn't Zuruggu-level broken imo, because Water-scarfers can still beat it. And Snover.

Good, yes. Broken, nah.

Imo.
 

v

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Alright, noms are closed. Once the suspects have been determined, I will reopen this thread and begin accepting ballots. Thanks for your participation si far!
 

v

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The Nominations Are In!

Hey, guys. Sorry it took so long to get these out! I've been really, really busy irl. Without further ado, here are the things which you can vote to ban or allow in the LC Metagame:

Code:
Evolution Stone
Inconsistent
Meditite
Zuruggu
Now, you are probably wondering how to vote. Well, luckily for you, I'm about to tell you! The voting system is virtually identical to last time, but this time Dubulous and myself are going to be much more stringent in our selection. Here's what you gotta do:

1) Private message Dubulous and I with your ballots with banned things' names bolded and allowed things' names normal. So, if you wanted to ban Evolution Stone and Inconsistent, but not Zuruggu and Meditite, your ballot would look like this:

Ballot said:
Evolution Stone
Inconsistent

Meditite
Zuruggu
2) Then, in a paragraph, in full sentences, describe why you believe that the Pokemon/Ability/Item you are voting to ban deserves to be banned, or why they deserve to remain if you are voting that way. Don't be afraid of length. While the minimum is one paragraph, Dubulous and I encourage users to write as much as they want!

3) Voting will close in two weeks, on 11:59 PM, EST January 8. Any votes sent in after that point will be considered void without very good reason being given as to their tardiness.

Thanks again for your time, and I encourage you all to vote!
 
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