np: Manaphy - Blame It On The Rain?

[Stathakis]

gah, zorba didn't make the deviation limits. well, .blech made uppers so that's good.

 

[paramylodon]

I'm surprised my alt ("the experiment") actually made lower requirements.
However, I have no idea how I would vote if I could, and hadn't played in the past two or more weeks (which is why I thought my deviation would be to high), so I really don't think I could/should pass with my paragraph submissions (although I'm doing much better then last time; I actually used manaphy in this test!).

EDIT:
Rey, you met upper requirements with three accounts; good job.

 

[Hocotate]

ahahahahahahaha

I just typed up three pages.

I think it's pretty good, but who knows? Hopefully good writing will mask any minor flaws in my arguments.

But seriously I wrote three pages and I'm not even finished.

Not nearly as active as Latios, and Latios was a deja vu test too >_>

I think part of the reason for this is that Suspect was filled with top players not just at the end but throughout the test. I'd be very surprised if there were more than a few instances of consecutive matches against battlers who weren't high up on the leaderboard, and it was tough as an average battler to survive.

 

[paramylodon]

Latios featured far more regular advertisement.
I remembered members of the staff regularly making comments encouraging everyone to play on the suspect ladder during the latios test.
Unfortunately, I only remember this occurring a couple of times during the manaphy test.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Latios featured far more regular advertisement.
I remembered members of the staff regularly making comments encouraging everyone to play on the suspect ladder during the latios test.
Unfortunately, I only remember this occurring a couple of times during the manaphy test.

I have to agree with paramylodon on this one. As I played throughout the testing period, I consistently found myself facing the same person, more often than not Rey. I also find that the test was not advertised as much as Latios testing was.

On a side note, it's also interesting how many people made upper requirements as compared to the last test. I think part of the reason is this suspect test was easier than the Latios test, but that is just my opinion.

 

[Jumpman16]

and for this test i saw even less people asking for suspect test battles in the main chat, it's kind of a wash when talking about "what you saw" but i will reiterate that is is the responsibility of the suspect test battlers to get battles, not the staff

ahahahahahahaha

I just typed up three pages.

I think it's pretty good, but who knows? Hopefully good writing will mask any minor flaws in my arguments.

But seriously I wrote three pages and I'm not even finished.

I think part of the reason for this is that Suspect was filled with top players not just at the end but throughout the test. I'd be very surprised if there were more than a few instances of consecutive matches against battlers who weren't high up on the leaderboard, and it was tough as an average battler to survive.

there's a saying about this that goes: "you throw enough mud up against the wall and something's gotta stick"

if you can't get your point across in "three pages", anything you write is going to be to your detriment, i can assure you that. anyone in a position of reading submissions or papers or applications knows this, so i suggest editing what you have to what's actually essential

 

[Lightsabre]

Have the people who filled the hidden requirement been decided yet?

 

[vashta]

Have the people who filled the hidden requirement been decided yet?

I believe Doug or Jump will post who made the Hidden Requirements, when it has been decided, in the Final Manaphy voters thread when the list is finalized; at the moment, I would say no, not yet.

 

[ToF]

I walled Suspect notices quite frequently, so all the comments regarding "not enough advertisement" aren't really valid at all. Besides, it is not really the job of the staff to constantly pester individuals to partake in the suspect test. This process should be completely relevant to your individual interest in shaping competitive Pokemon. "Incentives" should not and and will not be a way to encourage more voters. Besides, looking at the amount that turned out for Manaphy, I'd say there wasn't much need to advertise anyway.

 

[Voltron]

Manaphy has been the only suspect that has motivated me enough to play consistently. Seemed way more fun than Latias, and Latios was so similar to Latias that it didn't interest me either. To each his own I guess.

 

[panamaxis]

I'm really happy in the amount of people that made requirements (especially upper). I personally found the manaphy test very enjoyable.

Agreeing with Twist of Fate's post, I asked for suspect battles in the main chat and there was usually a person on who was willing to go on suspect.

 

[reachzero]

I'm really happy in the amount of people that made requirements (especially upper). I personally found the manaphy test very enjoyable.

I also found the Manaphy test very enjoyable, and am somewhat happy with the voter turnout, but I feel the need to point out that few people have the upper requirement that it appears--several people have multiple qualifying alts. I have two nicks with upper, for example, and I know that ReyScarface and Flashstorm1 have three apiece. So far fewer than 24 people have met the upper requirement, even if there are 24 qualifying names.

Regarding finding matches, I rarely had a hard time finding Suspect matches, except in the morning (EDT); on the other hand, I very often found myself playing ReyScarface and Flashstorm1, often both back-to-back. In other words, it seemed like the rather high activity on the ladder came from a relatively small group of Suspect junkies. I should also point out that the Shoddy mods are quite nice; if you PM them asking them to wall post for the Suspect ladder, they usually will.

 

[reyscarface]

Confirming as:

Alquimia
Scandium
Silicium

I guess i got the lowest 2 deviations of upper reqs, yay for me lol

 

[haunter]

Confirming as:

Alquimia
Scandium
Silicium

I guess i got the lowest 2 deviations of upper reqs, yay for me lol

We will confirm our identities in this thread (when Jumpman unlocks it).

I agree with reachzero, finding a suspect match wasn't that hard during this test, though I've battled the same persons over and over.

Also, I believe the mods have publicized the suspect enough (I remember sentences like "Manaphy wants to play with you on the suspect ladder" lol) and however it's not their fault if only few people were interested in earning voting rights.

 

[Lightsabre]

I tried to earn voting rights, but during the later part of the test I kept running into better players(yes, I'm talking to you Reyscarface), and for some odd reason shoddy kept disconnecting me right in the middle of the battle, so I think that was counted as a loss. I'm not sure if I was ever close to the average/deveation that I needed, but there was no way I could be at the end of th test

 

[reyscarface]

Lol, sorry Lightsabre, i just wanted to keep battling xD

Also, thanks Haunter, i was in a big rush of time this week thanks to vacations and that so i misthought this was the confirmation thread.

 

[Jun.]

Speaking of the confirmation thread. Is there any day we should expect to see the HR list?

 

[panamaxis]

Not any set date, should be soon though. As soon as DougJustDoug has the list of people that made the hidden requirements, he will unlock the thread I believe.

 

[Jun.]

So with the lack of the ability to identify ourselves in the appropriate thread does anybody know if paragraphs will still be expected from us tomorrow regardless of the fact?

 

[reyscarface]

All the paragraphs need to be submited until tomorrow?
Or there is a nother deadline maybe?
Since in the "Final Manaphy Voters" thread it says "which will probably be Monday" so im not sure =/

 

[Flashstorm1]

I'm planning on sending in my paragraph tomorrow, regardless of what has been established, since I'd rather not find out I can't vote just because I misunderstood Jumpman's post or something like that.

 

[iKitsune]

With the final eligible voters data to be released any time soon it is a crucial time to be discussing Manaphy. It would be highly irresponsible of us the possible voters, ie. those who submitted a paragraph, to vote without fully recosidering all the evidence that determines the tiering of Manaphy. This is especially neccessary to do as it is a relatively long time since the test ended. We have also had time to condense the information in our minds so we are now best informed to present evidence that will determine Manaphy's tiering particularly anything that came up while you were writing your paragraph that may not have been mentioned or discussed before. At this moment I have almost reached a conclusion on Manaphy's tiering but I as I think other voters may feel could be swayed. I am highly interested on how strongly you feel Manaphy needs to be tiered either way. Some may be completely sure while others like me may be yet to be entirely convinced on Manaphy's tiering either way.

I'll get the ball rolling..

My main reason for thinking Manaphy is Uber is because of the Manaphy and Toxic Spikes combo in particular the Crophy set. Rapid Spinners as we know are rare and entry hazards are hard to remove due to the presence of the Rotom appliances. However, this specific combo was able to take on arguably Manaphy's best counters Abomasnow and Celebi so with this support Manaphy could easily take on many Platinum stall teams which lack a grounded poison. This tactic is not entirely broken and it can be beaten mainly by not letting Manaphy get too many Calm Minds but i feel that it is just one of the many reasons to consider Manaphy for the Uber tier.

The other reason I think Manaphy could be Uber is because of its wide ranging versatility as in it can just as easily run CroPhy as it can run a LO three attack set. Furthermore although pokemon like Salamence can run very different set's they only get countered by slightly different things and ultimately can almost always get revenged by the ubiquitous Scizor and bullet punch. Therefore if you make the wrong switch or the wrong play then you could have already lost the game providng you dont have multiple counters/checks which Manaphy does not have and Electric and Grass are two of the attack-types most easily worked around IMO.

Feel free to post any other interesting arguments and perspectives for the tiering of Manaphy and your stance so far on it. We all know it is extremely bulky, fast and has tail glow.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, I am going to be VERY blunt and stern with my issue on this topic.

I used Manaphy on Suspect for a bit until I couldn't battle anymore due to school. My experiences with Manaphy was that it was NOT Uber.. Of course I said that about Garchomp and Latios, but thats a different argument. I think I'll enjoy Stage 3.

Anyway, theres just too much bullshit in this process from people about "omg I can't counter this pokemon so I don't want to fight it" which is downright ridiculous. Manaphy HAS more than just checks... it has COUNTERS.

Originally Posted by iKitsune
My main reason for thinking Manaphy(Suicune) is Uber is because of the Manaphy(Suicune) and Toxic Spikes combo in particular the Crophy(Crocune) set. Rapid Spinners as we know are rare and entry hazards are hard to remove due to the presence of the Rotom appliances. However, this specific combo was able to take on arguably Manaphy's best counters Abomasnow and Celebi so with this support Manaphy could easily take on many Platinum stall teams which lack a grounded poison. This tactic is not entirely broken and it can be beaten mainly by not letting Manaphy(Crocune) get too many Calm Minds but i feel that it is just one of the many reasons to consider Manaphy for the Uber tier.

No disrespect, but this is total bullshit. Crophy isn't beating Abomasnow and Celebi. In fact, you know what I did in this post just to prove this wrong? Replace Crophy with Crocune... You are arguing that providing the team support necessary for this type of pokemon to sweep makes it Uber which is absurd. Did you forget that Suicune has 100 / 115 / 115 Defenses and access to Calm Mind, Rest, etc.?

Originally Posted by iKitsune
The other reason I think Manaphy (Suicune / Celebi) could be Uber is because of its wide ranging versatility as in it can just as easily run CroPhy as it can run a LO three attack set.

Again, nothing here differentiates this from Suicune or even its grass counterpart in Celebi. They both can run a three attack set effectively.

Originally Posted by iKitsune
different things and ultimately can almost always get revenged by the ubiquitous Scizor and bullet punch.

Yah, you know Gyarados, Kingdra, and Suicune resist it as well. Nothing you've said proves jack shit.


So... going back a few pages...

Originially Posted by j7r
I know that "uncounterability" does not necessarily mean that it's Uber, but I think that with how difficult Manaphy can be to revenge kill it is certainly something to consider =\. If you can't counter it directly, and it resists 2/3 of the used priority moves in OU, what can you do? is what we're saying. It's just a feeling of frustration imo.

Again, nothing said here differentiates it from Empoleon, who survives Bullet Punches and Ice Shards at 25% health.

Originally Posted by j7r
If you would have just looked at the next sentence in the post you quoted, you would see that I said that comparisons are useful in explaining similarities in the ways that two mons are played...which was in contrast to people using those comparisons as the sole basis of their vote. Manaphy and Garchomp ARE similar because they force switches and use those switches to get a free +2 boost, which they then threaten OHKOs on almost all of OU with.

Don't mean to single you out j7r, but being able to OHKO most of OU really doesn't mean shit. It would be better said for Uber if it could outspeed and OHKO all of OU, which Manaphy can't.

Originally Posted by Haunter
Yes, revenge killing, obviously that depends on the revenge killer you are planning to use. If you use something like Jolteon, Shaymin (I know this is uncommon in OU), Zapdos (I've seen some with scarf just to be sure to outspeed Manaphy), then Manaphy can be revenge killed as well. Not to mention that if it has the standard sweeper EV spread (252\252) it takes up to 91% from a neutral Salamence's life orb'd draco meteor and up to 76% form a neutral Infernape's life orb'd close combat (assuming they have max sp.atk and atk respectively).

My point exactly.

Originally Posted by Tarquainmacdonald
Also, unlike say Salamence, when Manaphy's counter is down, It's practically game over. You can compromise and muddle around to try and kill things like Salamence, even in your main counter dies, you can still hit with a secondary rock attack say, or with a powerful neutral attack. This is not so with Manaphy, as it so bulky enough to withstand powerful neutral or weaker super effective hits and either hit back with a +2 Rain Danced Surf, or rest for a one turn heal.

Yeah, when your Lucario counter is dead you lose also. When your Curselax counter is dead you lose also. When your Gyarados counter is dead you lose... This is just bullshit. Also, in the post above we already calculated how much fucking Infernape can do on a potential revenge kill. Then theres still Azelf, Gengar and plently more. Remember if your EVing Manaphy with no defense EVs its not as "bulky" as you may think. Its still going to die to powerful attacks... Manaphy in reality is only about 10-12% bulkier than Kingdra, and no one has a problem killing Kingdra (who can actually raise its speed to pummel you and make it harder to revenge kill). Okay, so you have to run a slightly faster team. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by j7r
Well, imo, its much more of a burden to the other mons and not Manaphy. Like I outlined earlier, Manaphy can simply run a bulky set and all of these Speed ties wouldnt matter. In fact, those speed ties would HELP manaphy by making those base 100s invest less in HP and SpDef. 328 will be the next magic speed number I agree, but unlike with Garchomp's 333, it isnt a black and white "youre either faster or you arent", its a "pray that you win the coin flip and then pray that your Draco Meteor doesn't miss" etc. Allowing more mons to tie with Manaphy doesnt change the fact that they are still relying on coin flips.

How does Salamence not do that now?



Personally, I hope people don't turn this suspect test into a shitfest of "omg I can't counter it; its uber." Seriously, I thought the idea behind the test is to make more things playable, not ban every suspect. Manaphy is hardly uber... get over it and change that one thing about your team so you don't get swept. You do the same for Lucario and Gyarados...

 

[iKitsune]

No disrespect, but this is total bullshit. Crophy isn't beating Abomasnow and Celebi. In fact, you know what I did in this post just to prove this wrong? Replace Crophy with Crocune... You are arguing that providing the team support necessary for this type of pokemon to sweep makes it Uber which is absurd. Did you forget that Suicune has 100 / 115 / 115 Defenses and access to Calm Mind, Rest, etc.?

I was talking about how with Toxic Spikes support they are easily overcome as you neglected to mention. I completely comprehend they are excellent counters without them. I ran a stall team that was 3rd on the ladder so i think i am in a better position to judge Manaphy's tiering than you and ran two accounts both elligible for voting rights. Ok so you can replace CroPhy with Crocune but you are forgetting that you cant use Grass Knot against Manaphy so Celebi's STAB is fairly useless and prone to be set up on. Furthermore with Manaphy's Rain Rest you arent left open on any turns like Suicune is during sleeping when it may not be CMing.

Celebi is also versatile, yes you are right, but it has poor offensive options so more likely to be walled and more weaknesses leaving it more susceptible to revenge kills.

Suicune does have advantages over Manaphy mainly defensively yes, but offensively they have similar movepools and Suicune lacks Signal Beam. However, it has lower Sp.Atk and no Tail Glow and more importantly 100 base speed so it can take on a lot more threats at least speed tie which it is much more dangerous in the metagame. Manaphy's speed is not game breaking and it can easily be revenge killed though. I really wanted this not to turn into an argument maybe that was inevitable. I'm merely trying to provide evidence for Manaphy's tiering either way. I'm still not completely decided as i mentioned earlier.

 

[Naxte]

Just want to comment on the Celebi bit; you do know it has two other STAB options that work against Manaphy, don't you (Energy Ball and Leaf Storm, and actually also Seed Bomb if it goes physical)? Grass Knot may be Celebi's most common STAB move now, but it's not the only one it has, so it's STAB is hardly worthless against Manaphy.