np: NU Stage 2 - Part of Your World

[bean1706]

I to, haven't seen Magmortar or Absol as much as I'd expected. As far as Magmortar is concerned I agree that it is easy revenge killable and not a threat to unprepared players.

Absol is a completely different story though. With the abundance of Psychic pokemon in NU you'd think that Absol would be on nearly every team but I never see it (which is a good thing considering my current team has no reliable way to counter the thing.) It doesn't have many solid counters and tends to force a lot of switches nabbing a free Swords Dance boost or sub. So can someone explain why I'm not seeing any Absol?

 

[November Blue]

Well, I've seen a LOT of Sawk. Almost every player I've battled had one. Gurdurr not so much, sadly, but loads of Sawk. Maybe it's just the metagame ebb at work? Sawk checks Absol fairly well, so we're seeing loads of Sawk, and less Absol.

 

[bean1706]

Yeah Sawk is a pretty decent counter to Absol so I suppose that's killing its usage. Still, Sawk isn't that hard to kill and once it's out of the way Absol can get to work. Then again you can say that about any offensive threat.

 

[Raseri]

There's one amazing Pokemon this meta who hasn't gotten nearly enough discussion despite being on nearly every team: Golem. With 80/130 Physical defence he is one of the less bulky rock types, with behemoths like Regirock possesing far more physical bulk. And Probopass(despite having lower physical bulk) having the ability to tank special attacks with ease. Golem brings everything that offensive teams need in a lead: Stealth Rock, power, bulk, priority, even phazing if you want it. It is absolutemy amazing in this metagame, I personally run this set:

Golem (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Atk / 44 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sucker Punch / Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast

It is able to handily beat Regirock/Ninjask/JYNX and Butterfree. As well as having a good matchup against most of the metagame. I lead with it in 90% of my matches and am very rarely disappointed. And I also find it hard to switch in to: Common Grass types like Vileplume are crippled if they come in on EQ, while Serperior can be roared away. Unfortunately Golem is difficult to keep alive; he is such an important glue pokemon for offensive teams I find him getting wore down really quickly, taking u-turns and resisted moves does add up. I always shake my head when I see offensive teams running Regirock; who just steals your momentum completely and allows a lot of offensive threats to just come in for free(Marowak, anyone?) It also rapes those JaskWak teams really badly, especially with roar. Set up Rocks turn one, and then proceed to shuffle them around.

One of the biggest advantages to this set is that if you have sturdy up you beat jynx one on one, it takes 3 rock blasts to kill it if it sets up a sub, and only two if it goes for the Lovely Kiss(which they love to do) and a lot of players seem to throw Jynx out in the early game for some reason; allowing you to easily remove one of the biggest threats in the meta.

Ok I know this post is probably incoherent by now but I hope I got my point across. Use Golem, he's the best we've got since they took Rhydon!

 

[Raikaria]

Golem (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Atk / 44 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sucker Punch / Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast

It is able to handily beat Regirock/Ninjask/JYNX and Butterfree. As well as having a good matchup against most of the metagame.

How is Golem taking an Ice Beam from Jynx? Sure, if it's a lead-off then Sturdy is guarenteed, but in that case, Jynx would probobly not want to face a 100% Golem anyway, because of Stone-Edge.

Jynx would switch out in this senario [It might try Lovely Kiss, but even then, you'd have to stay asleep for 2 turns, 3 if Jynx wanted to set up, and a miss would kill Jynx, I wouldn't risk it.]. And in most other senarios you're the one switching in on Jynx, or Sturdy is broken due to a hazard, so Jynx outspeeds and OHKOs you.

Also, I wouldn't agree Butterfree is easily dealt with either. Butterfree usually uses HP Ground, which is a solid 2HKO with Timid Nature and a LO at +0, Spikes, or +1. Again, no sane Butterfree is likly to stay in against Golem, although the sleep miss is far less likly, a possible short sleep, combined with the fact it's a 2HKO with HP Ground even at +1, means Butterfree isn't staying in.

Handleing Ninjask is something any Taunter/Roarer can do.

And I almost never see Regirock leads. If it's for leading it tends to be Golem, with a different set to this.

Not saying it's a bad set, especially as it does force Jynx/Butterfree out in a lead/lead senario, or beats them if they're silly enough to try and sleep you. But it certainly dosen't hands-down beat Jynx and Butterfree.

 

[tomtom5858]

How is Golem taking an Ice Beam from Jynx? Sure, if it's a lead-off then Sturdy is guarenteed, but in that case, Jynx would probobly not want to face a 100% Golem anyway, because of Stone-Edge.

I believe you switch in on the Substitute.

 

[marilli]

GOLEM

The point of a Golem lead is that it's almost impossible to 1 vs 1 it. Yes, Missy and Tangela are good defensive responses, but that puts the opposing team on their heels, and allows your offensive team to do their setup jig. Without those type of defensive walls (which case you're facing a full-out stall team most likely) And you set up SR and all that, stuff that Golem's supposed to do. If you can't sleep it out of commission, it's killing at least one thing and getting SR up very reliably. Of course, it doesn't check Jynx, but gives you an extra way to play around it at full health, etc.

Yeah Golem's my favorite Rock-type in NU too.

 

[Smith]

Speaking of rock types, has anybody actually tried Solrock lol? I mean it's a really weird Pokemon but I use it for the surprise factor and the abilities to outspeed and explode on Gorebyss, which makes my job pretty easy. Normal Gem + Explosion not only packs surprise but also does a lot of damage, OHKOing Gorebyss with minimal investment. 95 attack isn't really that awful, and he's a cool niche 'mon for those of you who like to win with ~style~!

 

[Raseri]

Speaking of rock types, has anybody actually tried Solrock lol? I mean it's a really weird Pokemon but I use it for the surprise factor and the abilities to outspeed and explode on Gorebyss, which makes my job pretty easy. Normal Gem + Explosion not only packs surprise but also does a lot of damage, OHKOing Gorebyss with minimal investment. 95 attack isn't really that awful, and he's a cool niche 'mon for those of you who like to win with ~style~!

I've experimented with Solrock before; mainly as a lead with STealth Rock and Sunny Day but your set does look interesting. Being Faster than the other rock types is a definite plus. The only thing I don't like about Solrock is that he doesn't check physical threats nearly as well as the other options like Golem and Regirock do. He does have a niche though

 

[mailanbr]

I know how this might seem like a joke, but if we're going to be talking about physically defensive Rock types, then you have to check out Gigalith. Although it has 85/130/70 defenses, it can survive a couple attacks from many Pokes.

Before I show other calcs, I just want to show what a Standard Choice Scarf Terrakion does to a 252/0 Impish Gigalith:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 HP/0 Def Gigalith: 76.2% - 89.84% (2 hits to KO)

Now of course that is just showing something that really is irrelevant since Terrakion can't be used, so let's see how that same Gigalith compares to a standard Choice Scarf Sawk:
252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs 252 HP/0 Def Gigalith:
74.6% - 88.24% (2HKO).

Seeing as Sawk is the strongest physical attacker in the NU metagame, it's surprising to see that Gigalith can survive that. Unfortunately, in order to KO that Sawk, Sawk would have to be at -3, and even then, it's only a 87.5% chance to OHKO with an Earth Quake (assuming SR is on the field to get rid of it's Sturdy).

But if I can survive a CC from Sawk, it can and will survive other Physical attacks from other Pokes. Gigalith can also set up Stealth Rock, and even though Explosion got nerved this Gen, it can still cause a whole lot of damage.

Any thoughts?

 

[Raseri]

it seems outclassed by Golem, who was almost the same physical bulk but STAB on EQ. If you want to use Gigalith id ttake advantage of its huge attack stat and use it on a trick room team or as a Choice Bander. Not as a defensive rock type

 

[Smith]

Gigalith is super rad too, I just think that Golem kind of usurps any real use that he would have. They both have Sturdy, SR and powerful explosions but ground typing and Sucker Punch make Golem just a tad bit better. I could certainly see Gigalith being used if you prefer the raw power, though, since his higher attack is certainly significant.

RASERI STOP NINJAING ME

 

[jake]

just dropping by to say that CB gigalith was pretty awesome when i tried it. i mean you have essentially the third-highest attack available in NU (only rampardos and slaking/regigigigigigigigigigigas surpass it, and they have their own drawbacks in the form of frailty and terrible abilities). it hits really hard, and while it's not exactly the best pokemon in the metagame right now it's pretty cool.

 

[Molk]

just posting to say that vigoroth is extremely undderated, people often overlook the bulk up set for gurdurr, but forget that vigoroth actually hits harder than gurdurr, due to a higher base power return (i actually tested this)

+1 vigoroth return vs tangela: 426 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (102 Base Power): 87 - 103 (26.05% - 30.84%)

+1 gurdurr drain punch vs tangela: 508 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 76 - 91 (22.75% - 27.25%)

sure gurdurr has its advantages, mainly being a fighting type, and mach punch but vigoroth has MUCH higher speed, and most importantly vital spirit and slack off to make itself different

vigoroth also has a fun to use stallbreaker set (that's bulkier than SLOWBRO) consisting of taunt, toxic, return, and slack off, this set is a bitch to take down without a sawk of something, especially with toxic spikes support, so yeah use vigoroth more, it has its advantages over gurdurr, and its disadvantages but it hasnt disappointed me at all.

 

[Lady Shinki]

Pretty much every team I've made has been using a Relicanth on it with varying degrees of bulk/speed and offense. Head Smash separates it from other walls, seeing as it can 2hko any grass-type other than Tangela on the switch-in with Head Smash, reliably beats Golem by outspeeding it and 1hko'ing it with Waterfall (2 with Sturdy), and never is ko'ed by the combination of Earthquake and Sucker Punch short of a Dark Gem, meaning it can actually prevent it from fulfilling both of its roles in the lead matchup. It can come in on Magmortar and scout its set by baiting the Thunderbolt/HP out, and it even outspeeds Gorebyss pre-boost (admittedly, with a +Spe nature that isn't very useful otherwise) and can cripple it with Head Smash. It still has Toxic/Yawn/Stealth Rock/etc. to support its team as well.

 

[porcelaininja]

Pretty much every team I've made has been using a Relicanth on it with varying degrees of bulk/speed and offense. Head Smash separates it from other walls, seeing as it can 2hko any grass-type other than Tangela on the switch-in with Head Smash, reliably beats Golem by outspeeding it and 1hko'ing it with Waterfall (2 with Sturdy), and never is ko'ed by the combination of Earthquake and Sucker Punch short of a Dark Gem, meaning it can actually prevent it from fulfilling both of its roles in the lead matchup. It can come in on Magmortar and scout its set by baiting the Thunderbolt/HP out, and it even outspeeds Gorebyss pre-boost (admittedly, with a +Spe nature that isn't very useful otherwise) and can cripple it with Head Smash. It still has Toxic/Yawn/Stealth Rock/etc. to support its team as well.

I use one with a 252 HP/252 def spread and it tanks physical hits astonishingly well (takes BB and Facade's from Swellow w/ ease). Ability to lay Stealth Rock and you can either opt for Yawn/Rest in the last slot. Vileplume has good type synergy w/ Relicanth resisting Grass 4x, Fighting, & Electric and can wake him up w/ Aromatherapy.

@Molk I will have to try that Vigoroth Stallbreaker set it seems really nice w/ reliable recovery.

For stall teams, a reliable scarfer is really needed the one I'm currently using: Raichu. Modest still outspeeds Gorebyss +2 (WITHOUT rain) and is a nice counter for all those Rotom-S w/ Lightningrod. It also serves a good scout w/ a powered Volt Switch and even has access to Wish to serve as a pseudo-cleric.

 

[MegaKick]

Molk the comparison of vigoroth doing more damage doesnt really count with gurduur using a much lower power move. Besides vigoroth is stopped by tangela while gurduur sets up on it (assuming sleep clause is activated). If you were going for power calcs i think that gurduur's superpower vs. vigoroth's double edge would be better no?
As far as the annoyence set, it does kinda suck imo being walled so hard by the probopasses/bastiodons/metangs/lairons on every team.

But I didnt come here to rag on vigorboss, I came here to say that Serperior is probably the best pokemon in the metagame, simply because despite his horrid movepoll he has a lot of viable sets - today alone I've faced coil, SD, subCM(the best fyi) dual screens, and subseed. Even with modest stats he has the speed and typing to set up easily and a lot of people don't know what to expect from him.

Also i just wanna say I really want simple swoobat to be realeased cause simple CM + base 114 speed = epic sauce

 

[jake]

Molk the comparison of vigoroth doing more damage doesnt really count with gurduur using a much lower power move. Besides vigoroth is stopped by tangela while gurduur sets up on it (assuming sleep clause is activated). If you were going for power calcs i think that gurduur's superpower vs. vigoroth's double edge would be better no?
As far as the annoyence set, it does kinda suck imo being walled so hard by the probopasses/bastiodons/metangs/lairons on every team.

hi. firstly, i just wanted to say that he was comparing their bulk up sets - y'know, the only reason to really use gurdurr (and i guess vigoroth). vigoroth can use return on its bulk up set, whereas gurdurr has to rely on drain punch for recovery + damage. using a move such as superpower is simply counterproductive when using a bulk up set. sure, if he was talking about an all-out CB set that would be more relevant, but there are much better choice band users than those two.

secondly, probopass/bastiodon/metang/lairon are not on every team and if you think that then you're deluded. they're used, yes, but i haven't seen a bastiodon in at least the last hundred battles i've played, and i haven't seen very many metang and lairon at all. (also, metang sucks.) they've all got their own checks and counters, too. isn't that what teammates are for?

 

[Molk]

also, vigoroth sets up on tangela as well, as long as it lacks knock off, due to vital spirit and slack off, i still think that vigoroth is really fun to use if not underrated, i can also imagine an enduresalac set working to good effect, but the salac berry is unreleased

 

[porcelaininja]

also, vigoroth sets up on tangela as well, as long as it lacks knock off, due to vital spirit and slack off, i still think that vigoroth is really fun to use if not underrated, i can also imagine an enduresalac set working to good effect, but the salac berry is unreleased

Molk how is Vigoroth bulkier than Slowbro? Also, being Mono-Normal both has its advantages/disadvantages that it only has one weakness but only one resistance either that is so not common.

 

[Raseri]

Vigoroth is definitely a threat; a good one at that. But not a top tier mon imo.


Ok I'm going to make this post quick: What do you think of Dragonair? Outrage is amazingly powerful with a LO and a DD under your belt, but that set is very frail and easy to kill, the shedrest eviolite is easier to set up but lacks the immediate power.

I personally love the first set, I run DD/Outrage/Espeed/Waterfall and it was shockingly good, the bulky physical walls all fall to outrage, fast revenge killers can be picked off by espeed(which can also clean up late game) and waterfall covers yourweaknesses. I does get trolled by some really common things like Tangela and Alomomola though. Thoughts?

Also porcel, eviolite. Though i havent checked to verify that he is bulkier.

 

[Molk]

max hp max defense vigoroth takes slightly less (yes after facotring in lefties) from an attack than slowbro does, making the stallbreaker set even harder to take down.

swellow's facade vs vigoroth: 403 Atk vs 426 Def & 364 HP (140 Base Power): 144 - 169 (39.56% - 46.43%)

swellow's facade vs slowbro: 403 Atk vs 350 Def & 394 HP (140 Base Power): 174 - 205 (44.16% - 52.03%)

even after lefties they are about equal :)

also for good measure vs tangela 403 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (140 Base Power): 112 - 133 (33.53% - 39.82%)

 

[Scoopapa]

CB Gigalith is kind of cool but I'd rather use Relicanth if i'm going for a Choiced Rock-type. Relicanth has better power with Head Smash, a useable 209 Speed when Adamant (vs. Gigaliths slower-than-everything 25 base) and STAB Waterfall and Zen Headbutt to deal with Ground- and Fighting-types. Relicanth also has better defenses, although the standard spreads have Gigalith being bulkier simply because it's too slow to bother investing in Speed. 341 HP and 296 Def with no investment is still plenty to switch in on Swellow a couple of times and punish your opponent.

 

[Style_Dota]

Vigoroth is definitely a threat; a good one at that. But not a top tier mon imo.


Ok I'm going to make this post quick: What do you think of Dragonair? Outrage is amazingly powerful with a LO and a DD under your belt, but that set is very frail and easy to kill, the shedrest eviolite is easier to set up but lacks the immediate power.

I personally love the first set, I run DD/Outrage/Espeed/Waterfall and it was shockingly good, the bulky physical walls all fall to outrage, fast revenge killers can be picked off by espeed(which can also clean up late game) and waterfall covers yourweaknesses. I does get trolled by some really common things like Tangela and Alomomola though. Thoughts?

Also porcel, eviolite. Though i havent checked to verify that he is bulkier.

I tested Dragoniar out wayyyyyy in the beginning of NU. I have to say, it was a pretty good Poke to have.

I used the same move set with DD / Outrage / Espeed / Waterfall. I ran Eviolite with Multiscale though mainly because it guaranteed at least two boosts since almost any neutral hit did about 15/20% max with Multiscale up.

As you said though, it does have some problems against some pretty common walls, but if those are lured in and eliminated, then Dragonair makes a beastly late-game sweeper.

 

[tennisace]

I ran Eviolite with Multiscale though mainly because it guaranteed at least two boosts since almost any neutral hit did about 15/20% max with Multiscale up.

Well that's odd since Dragonair gets Marvel Scale not Multiscale from the Dream World. Marvel Scale is the one Milotic has; it boosts Defense by 50% if statused. Multiscale reduces hits at full health. Anyway you should be using Shed Skin on Dragonair regardless since it allows you to set up on Misdreavus!