np: NU Stage 6 - Magic Black Woman

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Aug 18, 2012.

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  1. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~
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    About Cacturne, Encore and Bullet Seed are certainly great moves but like Ewil said, Cacturne's main points of being used are Spikes and Sucker Punch. Encore was definitely useful against stall, preventing Musharna from killing it with Signal Beam, and other uses but isn't necessary for Cacturne to fulfill its role. Bullet Seed is also just a cherry that allows it break through Golem's Sturdy (and doesn't even KO Golem if it only gets two hits iirc). Water Absorb will also help wasting rain turns against the likes of Rain teams as a Rain-boosted Hydro Pump would obliterate Cacturne. Cacturne's role in the metagame will be hindered a bit but it will still perform its main niche well if only Sand Veil gets banned.

    Roost might seem pretty cool on Choiced Braviary kind of acting like a lesser Rest on SpecsTaria. I would use U-turn over it but it definitely has its uses such as recovering HP from Rocks damage and Brave Bird recoil. Also, U-turn is pretty useful early game when rocks aren't off the field and when you don't know whether your opponent will predict the obvious move. It also weakens mons such as Carracosta into a range of health where Superpower can KO later.

    About my top 5 (my favorites to use in this metagame, not what I think are the best top 5 pokemon in NU) are Golurk, Exeggutor, Charizard, Lickilicky, and Haunter.

    Golurk is still an amazing pokemon with a great attack and a great movepool. My personal favorite is Colbur Berry Golurk (Colurk) to lure in dark types such as Absol and Skuntank which allows Golurk to live any attack from them while swiftly OHKOing with either Drain Punch or Earthquake. This allows other pokemon such as Musharna, Exeggutor, or basically any Psychic/Ghost types that fear those Dark-types to reign free without being scared of getting Pursuit trapped or not being able to hit anything (CM Mushy with Heal Bell). Colbur Berry also allows it to fake CB sets while also making it a much better check to Zangoose.

    Exeggutor has been one of my favorite mons in this meta for many reasons. With access to Sleep Powder, Eggy is basically guaranteed to cripple an opposing pokemon while blasting the opposition with hard-hitting Leaf Storms and Psychics. LumRest is amazing because it fakes Specs sets well while also making it an amazing switch into Alomomolas and Amoongusses that spam Spore. Its good bulk allows it to switch into multiple Ground-types and Grass-types such as Hidden Power Rock Serperior. It's ability to sweep teams with the use of Sunny Day is also great.

    Charizard has to be one of the most underrated mons I have seen in a while. I don't think I have seen anyone in IRC using Zard (correct me if I'm wrong), but it is one of the best scarfers in the tier. It's Choice Scarf set is it's best set (on non-dedicated sun teams) imo since it gives it a great speed stat that allows it to revenge kill mons such as Ludicolo and Rotom-S. After switching into Stealth Rock twice, it can take advantage of Blaze giving it a great cleaning option while Air Slash can flinch multiple mons to death (although it has 2% accuracy :/). It shouldn't be used as a mon that switches in a match multiple times such as Rotom-S but as a mon that can clean the opposition when weakened. It also provides a great switch into Gurdurr since most don't run a Rock-type move anymore. It's highly underrated and just because it has a 4x SR weakness doesn't mean it is a bad pokemon (look at Moltres in RU and Volcarona in OU). I would highly recommend it to those who haven't tried it out yet.

    Lickilicky has to have one of the best sprites ever! It's SubSD set is extremely good as it is able to set up on walls such as Amoonguss, Alomomola, and Probopass (except for CB Head Smash the best myth ever). Unfortunately, SubBUBraviary kind of outclasses it as a sub-boosting mon although Lickilicky boasts much better defenses, not getting beat by Electric-types, able to set up on more specially-orientated pokemon, and less weaknesses. On the other hand, Lickilicky can be a phenomenal special wall and wish passer as it can take hits like a boss (although SubSDLicky is the only BOSSLICKY). I wouldn't consider Lickilicky as a top 5 mon but is certainly one of my favorites (hint hint: tongue-tied).

    Finally, we come to Haunter. It's SubDisable set is absolutely team-breaking and is extremely potent with hazards (preferably Spikes). It's ability to take on threats such as CM Mushy, CB Sawk, SubBUBraviary, Gurdurr, and so much more definitely makes it a top-tier threat. It can even beat Absol and Skuntank at low health if they use two Dark-type moves only (Skuntank only with Sludge Bomb + Hidden Power Ground). It's Scarf set is pretty good albeit kind of weak since it can 2HKO most offensive teams while forcing out pokemon such as Zangoose or Exeggutor. It's multiple immunities are great as all three of those types (Normal, Fighting, and Ground) are all common types in NU.

    My favorite underdogs are probably Mawile, Stunfisk, and Tauros. Mawile is a great utility mon able to wall many threats while supporting its team. *ACHOOOO* MAWILE4RG. Stunfisk is great as it can take many attacks while walling threats such as Braviary (can survive two CB Returns without Rocks) with it's unique typing. And of course, STATIC. Tauros is a hard-hitter that is also pretty speedy while sporting good natural bulk by taking many priority attacks including Gurdurr's Mach Punch.

    Along with Ebeast's top 5, what is your favorite playstyle in this metagame?

    Mine is offense (mainly bulky offense) since there are many huge attackers with pretty good bulk and there are many mons with great typing in bulky offense such as Exeggutor and Golurk. Bulky set up sweepers such as SubBUBraviary, SubSD Lickilicky, Gurdurr, Eviolite Fraxure, and Musharna also work extremely well in this metagame.

    This is a great meta and is extremely fun to play in. Sorry that this post was so long, but congrats if you read all the way through. :)
  2. Pocket

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    Colbur Golurk sounds like a fantastic lure.

    Also have anyone tried Sheer Force SD Mawile? It has a surprisingly rich movepool to work off with, including Iron Head, Crunch, Sucker Punch (no boost :(), Elemental Punches, and Rock Slide, Body Slam. It can also pass SD boosts with Baton Pass, too, if it wishes.

    Solar Power Scarf Charizard is legit. Pair it with Heat Rock Taunt Whimsicott, etc to prevent hazards from going up and go to town :) I would run Fire Blast - Flamethrower - Solarbeam - Dragon Pulse

    EDIT: oops, sorry, I am extrapolating my experiences from RU to NU :x
  3. Full2Half

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    I've been using SD mawile with punch, iron head, and spunch for quite some time now, and it truely is great. It's typing is a bummer offensively, but it lets him set up more often, and he still hits what he needs to. I've thought of using sub over sucker punch or thunderpunch, but ultimately went against it.
  4. Django

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    As fun as that sounds, Whimsicott is unfortunately RU, and judging by last months stats is no where near to dropping. Prankter Sunny Day still exists in Volbeat / Illumise, while Marowak and Torterra do an excellent job keeping hazards off the field (Torterra and Charizard also have really cool synergy).

    Dragon Pulse is basically redundant coverage in NU when basically nothing can take Fire Blast / Air Slash / SolarBeam. Giving up on that second STAB move which will destroy any Flash Fire Pokemon is pretty pointless. Fire Blast / Air Slash / SolarBeam / Filler (probably Flamethrower) would be my set for a choice item. I think I prefer running Solar Power Charizard with another item though, as predicting wrong while Sun is up and thus wasting Sun turns can be gamebreaking. Heat Rock is actually really fun to use on Sunny Day Charizard, and it gets more than enough power to break down offensive teams with Solar Power.
  5. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    So I said I'd post about underdogs and there's 2 pokes I think deserve a special mention.

    Rotom-F is a complete demon in this metagame. Ice electric stab is awesome, volt switch brings great momentum, hp ice threatens many possible switch-ins and scarf thunderbolt is very useful late game for finishing off the opponent. Rotom does not only stab ice electric, he's one of only pokes with piloswine to resist it. Rotom also has a great ability in levitate and scarf trick is extremly useful when facing walls your team can't handle.

    Another underdog I've really appreciated is lapras. I've seen more physcial sets than special ones because of dragon dance, but I think the special sets need more attention. Same great coverage as rotom-F but with water as third move type adding great coverage. Lapras is kind of similar to ludicolo in a way for it has water ice coverage with a move for water types. They don't struggle with the same pokes because of the coverage of tbolt and giga drain, but the main difference is their playstyle. While ludicolo is a very offensive sweeper, lapras is one of the only water pokes in NU to have aweome sp.d and no secondary typing to take away it's ice resistance. Lapras also has decent physical bulk and access to fun moves like heal bell and a good ability in water absorb.
  6. Pocket

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    I agree with Sweet Jesus on Lapras, although I've been using it for its Hydration ability to beat the infamous Alomomola / Amoonguss combination. Set up Rain Dance, and their poison or sleep condition would be resolved. Then promptly Thunder or Ice Beam to take them out.
  7. kniteowl

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    ^ WHAT!? No more Encore or Bullet seed Cacturne in the foreesable future?

    Common guys let's start abusing the crap out of Sandveil Cacturne while we have the chance. You will never see this baby again until possibly 6th Gen.
  8. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken with splinters in our teeth, we're driven from our parallels
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    Has anyone used dual screens heavy offense effectively this meta? I built a team quickly with DS Gardy and SD Lum Samurott, and holy hell it absolutely destroys stuff behind dual screens. There are a ton of other really good and really effective mons that dual screens are just perfect for, like DD Fraxure, RP Torterra, Shell Smash Gorebyss, and the king, BD Linoone. It's really an underused playstyle atm and I think it's worth looking into, simply because teams really rely on just barely KOing or 2HKOing these powerful offensive threats with Amoonguss / whatever. You guys should test it out!

    Also, there may be a few potential Senate shake-ups sometime in the near future, so keep posting and being noticeable in NU, both on IRC and here! :)
  9. Raseri

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    I have used a dual screens team to success. I ran Dual Screen Solrock(with explosion!) since it can handle most common leads, and break sturdy. There are a lot of Pokemon that pair well with dual screens. My personal favourite was Swords Dance Zangoose. Since most teams don't pack a ghost forgoing Night Slash isn't a huge issue, and Zangoose's bulk is the only thing stopping it from setting up more often. At +2 is OHKOs Alomomola! What a beast. Other Pokemon that I used under dual screens were double dance Torterra(also a monster) and SD Marowak(a little to slow).

    The biggest issue with these teams is team match ups. Against a skilled player setting up dual screens is a lot harder, since they wont mindlessly lead with a rock type, so you have to play a lot more clever. But even with just a single screen Zangoose and Torterra become really threatening.
  10. Incon

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    I built a 5 minute hyper offense team using Natu as a screen setter and Agility + Swords Dance Kingler and . Natu was a rather lackluster screen setter. I ran light clay over eviolite for the 8 turn screens so it died to most hits. It did have some perks in thunder wave, slow u-turn, and Magic Bounce, but its inexistent bulk made it really hard to set up. Because of these cons, i decided to use Ampharos. Now Ampharos is quite effective at this job. His bulk allows him to tank multiple hits especially with screens up, and has a slow volt switch to bring in sweepers safely.

    If you can get Kingler set up, he is nearly unstoppable behind screens. +2 Crabhammer off of his 130 base Attack hit everything hard. Include agility, and hes koing most of the other team. The only problem was actually getting set up. From my testing though, i would say Hyper Offensive teams are viable in this meta when played right. Like Raseri said, team matchups are the biggest problem for this strategy, however when played smart, it can catch a lot of people off guard and be really effective.
  11. DTC

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    Weather hyper offense teams are also pretty amazing right now. Often they have bad defensive synergy, but they make up for that with extremely powerful abusers. There are so many great abusers in the tier. Ludicolo, Seismitoad, Mantine, Samurott, Gorebyss for rain teams; Charizard, Emboar, Exeggutor, Victreebell, and Sawsbuck for sun teams. I find that the best weather teams are the ones that have the main abusers set-up their respective weather instead of having supporting Pokemon set-up it for them. Rain teams can do this much easier than sun teams.

    Rain teams have the aforementioned advantage of being able to fit Rain Dance on more of their abusers. They can also cover up their weaknesses better between the abusers; Seismitoad can take care of Electric-type attacks and Mantine and Ludicolo don't mind Grass-type attacks. Mantine, Ludicolo, and Seismitoad all are effective sweepers on their own and all have enough room for Rain Dance. Samurott and Gorebyss could also use Rain Dance as well, although Samurott only has room for Rain Dance on the special attacking set. Rain Dance on Gorebyss may seem like a weird idea, but it's to support the team. Sacrificing the extra Special Attack to support the rest of the team may not be that bad of an idea, but I haven't tried it yet. Articuno is also a fantastic Pokemon on rain teams; it can take powerful hits for the team, it beats up Grass-types, and it can even set up and abuse rain itself with Hurricane. Another thing that's cool about rain teams is that you don't even need to dedicate a Pokemon slot to Stealth Rock; Seismitoad can easily use Stealth Rock over Sludge Wave because there are other Pokemon that can take care of Grass-types.

    Sun teams I find need a bit more support than rain teams as they can't cover up their own weaknesses as well and don't have any abuser that can set up Stealth Rock well. The sun sweepers also tend to be frailer than rain sweepers and as such are weaker to priority. They also don't have the Speed + Power boost in one Pokemon, but that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that sun teams have more varied abusers. However, Charizard and Exeggutor are absolutely amazing weather sweepers. Charizard can set up Sunny Day well and then destroy things with its extremely powerful attacks. Exeggutor can also set up Sunny Day, incapacitate things with Sleep Powder, and take advantage of Sunny Day really well. Exeggutor is a nightmare to face when it has a Chlorophyll boost. Synthesis is also a pretty cool option on Sunny Day Exeggutor because it's quite bulky, so it has many opportunities to heal up. Choice Band Emboar is very effective without sun, and with sun, its Flare Blitz's are practically un-wallable. Powerful priority users, especially Absol and Samurott, are a huge threat to sun teams, as well as other fast Pokemon that can get in before Sunny Day is set up. Regirock is pretty cool on sun teams because it can set up Stealth Rock & Sunny Day and also boasts the ability to check many fast threats. Unfortunately, it doesn't exactly syerngize well with the Fire-type abusers.

    What's interesting to note about weather teams is that the two best Rapid Spin users in NU can take advantage of weather well, which is nice considering that a lot of potent weather Pokemon are weak to Stealth Rock. The last two weather teams I made actually use Rapid Spinners. For rain teams, Armaldo gets that awesome Swift Swim that allows it to actually outspeed things and a more powerful Aqua Tail that makes it easier to bypass Golurk. For sun teams, Torkoal's Fire Blasts become even more powerful. Sunny Day Torkoal is also pretty cool on sun teams (Sunny Day / Fire Blast / SolarBeam / Rapid Spin @ Heat Rock) as it's a unique combination of an offensive spinner and Sunny Day setter.

    Weather teams are an interesting brand of offensive teams in NU; I suggest you guys try them out.
  12. Toa Tahu

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    I'd just like to point out that Swanna is also a fantastic rain abuser. Its STABs get perfect neutral coverage in NU, and it is immune to status when rain is up. It's also got that trolly 98 base speed and resistances to many priority moves. It would really like Hydro Pump though.
  13. Ashley11

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    Another good weather abuser is choice band leavanny, and life orb shiftry. Leavanny is literally at an untouchable speed with chlorryphyll and has quite a painful leaf blade Andy scissor with a choice band. Shiftry has nasty plot, I think solar beam, correct me if I'm wrong, and a nice dark stab as dark pulse. An incredible Pokemon, oh and hp fire as well. These two are good sun sweepers.

    And also, has anyone here tried eviolite growth ivysaur in the sun. I haven't, just wondering if it was a possibility.
  14. DTC

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    Choice Band Leavanny sounds really mediocre. For one, Choice users aren't very good on weather teams; two, Leavanny has awful STAB's and sub-par stats. With Grass / Bug STAB, Leavanny is going to be forced out a LOT which sun teams can't afford to be. If you're forced out, you have two options; you could either switch out to a sun sweeper or a pivot and then switch out/U-turn/BP/Volt Switch to a sun sweeper. The problem with the first option is you have to risk a sun sweeper taking a lot of damage; the problem with the second option is you waste even more sun turns. Choice Band Leavanny ruins the momentum of sun teams while being a sub-par sweeper. There are much better Chlorophyll abusers out there. Shiftry is pretty interesting, though. I haven't used it in a long time but that Dark typing is nice for the Sucker Punch resistance.

    Regarding Ivysaur, I guess that's a cute idea. But why are you not using any other Chlorophyll user that's much more faster and powerful? Weather teams in NU shouldn't be using bulky abusers; it should be going all out offensive.
  15. Pocket

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    Yea, DTC; Weather deserves far more usage than it's getting - it's so easy to abuse. Your tidbit on weather Rapid Spinners were especially intriguing; Swift Swim Armaldo sounds ballin, lol! I had some awesome conversation with Ebeast about how Rain Offense forces people to play their special walls conservatively. Physical walls are turned into death fodder, allowing SD Samurott to rape face. Samurott basically complements well with special swift swimmers. Another interesting option is CB Basculin - with Adaptability providing a 100% boost to its Waterfall and Aqua Jet Basculin can demolish once physical walls (Alomomola and Amoonguss) are removed. Floatzel is also an underappreciated Rain sweeper; Dell Agent's Floatzel provides some amazing mixed wallbreaking offense for Rain teams - the only downside of his set is Floatzel's vulnerability to priority, due to its lack of Aqua Jet.

    Sun is just as devastating. Victreebel easily clean teams with its super-powerful Grass & Fire offense. Sawsbuck has a harder time sweeping, since their are pretty darn good physical walls in this tier, but it still gets the job done. ScarfZard easily clean through teams, and its quad SR weakness is worth it. Nothing short of Alomomola or Regirock can stand in the way of CB Emboar's FlareBlitz.

    Other interesting Sun options are Flash Fire users, such as Rapidash and Flareon. This prevents opposing Fire-types from taking advantage of your sun. Rapidash has much more useful Speed than Emboar, a powerful Flare Blitz, Drill Liner, Morning Sun, and SolarBeam. Flareon can make an effective mixed wallbreaker with its Toxic Orb set: Facade, Superpower, Fire Blast and Flame Charge for instance?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Going off of tangent here, but what are effective wallbreakers that can break through the powerful defensive behemoth that are Alomomola, Amoonguss, and Musharna? I know Rampardos does a good job piercing through those fortress mons, but I'd like to know more options, ideally ones that can more easily switch into them.

    EDIT: special samu, klang w/ toxic or sub?, eggy
  16. Axa

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    Speaking of rain, I've been enjoying using Swift Swim Mantine. He can hit surprisingly hard with a Life Orb Rain boosted Hydro Pump, and Air Slash allows him to get past Ludicolo while the latter can't do much to Mantine. He doesn't have Hurricane, but he can outpace Rotom-S, which Swanna can't, and his special bulk actually allows him to take a hit or two. I've been using with Damp Rock Seismitoad (who does decently, but has trouble fitting both Stealth Rock and Sludge Wave), and CB Swift Swim Beartic.

    As for others, Liepard has been a bunch of fun - it wipes out Golurk 100% of the time with Foul Play, and can also take on Zangoose who don't run Quick Attack - it can take one at full health if needed as well. It is also a solid check to Musharna, since it has to predict correctly and use Signal Beam on the switch, as otherwise Liepard can just Encore it. I've been running Encore/Thunder Wave/Foul Play/Snarl, and it's functioning as a pretty decent annoyer or possible revenge killer.
  17. Annoyer

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    Other than Rampardos, the only other wallbreakers I can think of are SD Marowak, SD/CB Fraxure, Zangoose, CB Golurk, CB Braviary, and CB Emboar. Note that all of the Choice Banded mons will have trouble with Alomomola sometimes due to Protect. Other than wallbreakers, some pokemon that can set up with general ease against these Pokemon are SubSD Lickilicky, SubBU Braviary, Klang, Scraggy, SubCM Gardevoir, Swoobat, and many more that I can't think of right now.

    I've been using Hyper Offense (Dual Screens) on the ladder, and it is actually pretty effective. Linoone is an excellent Pokemon under Dual Screens as it has multiple opportunities to set up behind screens. Pokemon like Gardevoir, Ampharos, Serperior, and Solrock are pretty good Dual Screeners. Solrock might sound weird due to getting competition from Gardevoir, but fitting Stealth Rocks onto a Dual Screens team is quite hard and Solrock fits that role pretty well. On my Dual Screens team, I've been using SD Sawsbuck and it is absolutely ruthless under Dual Screens. It is able to set up a Swords Dance on many Pokemon with little problem and not much can KO it under screens. Nature Power also bypasses Sucker Punch users such as Absol and Skuntank that will usually give a problem to Hyper Offensive teams which is really great. I've also been using Piloswine just because of Rocks and its priority. It takes hits absurdly well under screens and is always a safe pokemon to fall back on when screens are gone. It doesn't really fit the Hyper Offensive playstyle, but it does fit my team pretty well. I also used SD Rott and it is insane under screens. The amount of pokemon it can set up on is crazy and revenge klilling it is a hard task as well. This isn't really a playstyle I would use a lot, but it is certainly the most fun imo.
  18. Annoyer

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    With this period's tier changes, the one and only Metang is the only RU Pokemon that has dropped down to this tier. Although it is considered by many a joke mon (and it still might be), Metang has not been tested in NU with the new BW2 changes with new threats such as Cinccino and Zangoose. Being the only Pokemon in NU currently to take two of Zangoose's attacks even without a max Physically Defensive spread, Metang might be a bit more than a "joke" mon. While also being able to take on Choice Band Braviary, Metang isn't that bad. It is still set up fodder for many many Pokemon. What are your opinions on Metang on how well it will do in this metagame? (Please try to be a bit serious in your posts...)
  19. FLCL

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    Metang does not have enough good qualities to be of much use in my opinion. Unlike other bulky Eviolite Pokemon such as Piloswine and Klang, Metang thrives on being able to stop attackers and "stall" them out. However, without any form of healing outside of Rest, it will struggle to do the one thing it does best. As previously mentioned, it is set up bait for many dangerous sweepers such as Ludicolo, Gorebyss, and SMASHKOAL. Defensive Pokemon usually have a way of disrupting the opponent, but the best Metang can do is Toxic something (this reminds me of a certain fat, pink, fish)
  20. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    ^ Respect the fat pink fish, it's still arguably the best mon in NU to keep your team healthy. Toxic is also a decent way of damaging a good part of the meta when you have momo's bulk and recovery capacities.

    Metang lacks recovery so he isn't going too far even with toxic. Sure he can invest in attack since his bulk is already pretty good, but even with max investment, 75 attack with a steel and psychic stab is making him weaker than an unboosted arbok. Not to mention running max attack still has a major impact on his capacity to wall stuff. Unlike the big heart fish, metang doesn't have any form of recovery, not even leftovers. The only thing I could see him do is spam toxic, non light clay dual screens and then die.
  21. CrashinBoomBang

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    I personally think you two are looking at Metang in a wrong way. In my opinion, Metang has the very specific role of stopping physically offensive Pokemon without a reliable recovery move, especially frail ones such as Zangoose and Absol. Even with its pitiful attack stat, Metang will deal far more damage to those two than either of them can do back, forcing them to take poison/Life Orb as well as hazards damage. If they stay in, chances are they'll lose to Metang. If they switch out, they'll just take more residual damage, putting them in the KO range of Pokemon such as a Zangoose of your own and Samurott. The main thing that differentiates Metang from Pokemon such as Piloswine is that there is no prediction required. This is vital for frail, offensive teams who do not have the defenses to stand up to assaults like that and can't risk predicting around it. While Alomomola might do the same to a certain degree, I really think that it is an even bigger momentum killer than Metang and doesn't belong on offensive teams, not to mention that Alomomola doesn't force them into a do-or-die situation (if you switch into Zangoose's Facade, you either have to switch out after the Protect, endangering other Pokemon of your team, or stay in to potentially die. Metang can keep Zangoose at bay long enough for it to die to residual damage, among other threats). It also gets both a Flying and Dragon resist, as well as Stealth Rock, things Alomomola would die for. This allows it to check Pokemon such as Choice Band Braviary and any form of Fraxure arguably better than the sunfish.

    While I don't think Metang is a stellar Pokemon, it has a small niche and it's most certainly better than people are making it out to be.
  22. SHUCKLE MAN

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    I don't think Metang is a particularly good Pokemon, but one of the things that make him seem even worse than he really is, are the players that try and use him as a mini-Metagross. When in reality, he should absolutely NOT be used that way, since he has a completely different stat spread (his stat spread is more similar to Bronzong and Bronzor than to Metagross).

    I'm not saying he's an amazing Pokemon, but those players that just copy a Metagross OU moveset for it, and then lose with it every time, aren't helping Metang's reputation.
  23. elchupo

    elchupo

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    In previous metas I'd never seen a Metang do anything worth of note. Of course, with Cinccino running around everywhere it now has a defined niche, but beyond that I think it'll be as useless as it always was.

    Moving away from Metang for a moment. I am baffled as to why more people don't use Dragonair. Like, truely baffled. It has so much going for it. Great Defenses with Eviolite, excellent Dragon type to sponge hits and murder stuff with STAB Outrage, truly excellent abilities in Shed Skin/Marvel Scale, an amazing physical movepool with Waterfall and Extremespeed (!!).

    The fact that it's abilities means it DGAF about any status, It can set up all over the Moon'Mom core. It's bulky enough to be able to wall hits from Cinccino and OHKO back.

    The only problem I've found with it is trying to find a way to utilise all it's attributes to their fullest. By virtue of its type, Eviolite, and abilities, a bulky DD set with Rest/ Sleep Talk is almost a given. But not investing fully in Atk is very noticeable. The same with investing in Speed.

    As well as this, If you're running a bulky set, Extremespeed is excellent in order to hit fast 'mons such as Swellow and Cinccino, but competes for a moveslot with Rest/Waterfall. And without Waterfall it's walled by the Rock/Steels.

    The current set I'm running tries to strike a balance between the two, and I've been very pleased with how it's performed, but I still don't think it's the best it can run.

    Dragonair (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shed Skin
    EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Waterfall
    - ExtremeSpeed

    I decided to minimally invest in Speed since it couldn't outspeed Cinccino at +1. The spread allows it to outspeed at +2 and OHKO with Waterfall/ES (IIRC). I maxed Atk and dumped the rest in HP to augment it's bulk.

    Has anyone else had any experience using it, or suggest a better way to utilise its (considerable) assets?
  24. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Messages:
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    @elchupo

    Dragonair has a really hard time standing out as an all out offensive set is pretty much outclassed by Fraxure while the RestTalk Marvel Scale set is contested by Shelgon.
    • 252 +2 Atk Dragonair (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4 HP/0 Def Cinccino: 73.63% - 86.99% (2 hits to KO)
    That's the calc for +2 ESpeed against Cinccino, meaning that it has to go for Outrage to take it down if Cinccino is at full. If you really wanted Dragonair to outspeed things you can use max Speed and a Jolly nature to to outspeed even Swellow at +1. If you do opt for this Fraxure is in short a better choice all the way as it can still outspeed Swellow at +1 while having much better Attack, excellent coverage with just Low Kick, utility in Taunt, and Mold Breaker. By using a RestTalk set Dragonair is competing against Shelgon who holds superior physical bulk before Dragonair activates its Marvel Scale that allows it to take on behemoths such as Emboar and set up on them.

    The set you have is probably the best Dragonair can do, be the middleman between Fraxure and Shelgon as otherwise they are superior choices.
  25. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken with splinters in our teeth, we're driven from our parallels
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Super Moderator Alumnus

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    soooo i was laddering with a bunch of weird/random things that i actually really enjoyed using and genuinely think should be used more! here are my thoughts on a few of them:

    rotom-f: holy damn, this is fantastic. until this point i had never really been a strong fan of rotom-s (heh pun) because i don't really like sr-weak scarfers whatsoever, but rotom-f far and away exceeded my expectations simply on offensive coverage alone. boltbeam stabs are absolutely amazing (plus you have a reliable one in hp ice) and if you don't need rotom-s's fighting resistance, i definitely encourage you to give this a try.

    piloswine: my premier sr user of choice is still golem purely because of the utility that it gives my offensive-inclined teams, but piloswine actually gives it a run for its money. nothing else really has the impressive coverage, power, and defenses that this thing gives you (although regirock is very similar). it's an amazing stop to everything electric-type related except eelektross because fuck levitate, but other than that it can take almost every hit in the metagame (252/252+ variants actually live an adamant cb emboar superpower almost 100% of the time). it's a fantastic mon that definitely needs to see more usage, so test it out!

    cb sawk: this thing is a nuke on steroids. it doesn't have the dual-stabs of emboar and it cannot simply tear the metagame in half because it does have a few checks, but it does have several awesome factors of its own. for one thing, it just barely outspeeds +spe ludi / samu with adamant, so you can very safely run it and ensure that you're outspeeding everything that goes for that tier (neutral brav / gardy / skuntank / those two etc). it just decimates teams that don't have musharna / misdreavus and if you can keep hazards off the field and preserve sturdy, you can just blow through fighting-type resists (rotom-s takes upwards of 70% from a cc). it's incredible.

    offensive seismitoad: this hasn't been -the best- like the other mons, but it's still very very good lategame, especially with hazards support. many people only carry a singular grass-type to beat this (mostly amoonguss / ludicolo), and sludge wave actually lets you beat ludicolo given a small amount of prior damage. you also outspeed that key +spe base 70s tier that i pointed out earlier. water/ground is really solid coverage and you don't have to worry too much about mons trying to revenge you, apart from absol. it's really underutilized and should see more use with proper team support, imo.

    there are actually several other things that i've been using extensively, but my internet cuts in about 6 minutes so i just wanted to pump out this post before i went to bed. what stuff have you guys been using effectively on the ladder, and what do you think of these guys? i'm finding success with a ton of non-standard stuff on the ladder (i won several games with leavanny, haha) and it's really easy to come up with new and effective sets now imo. try it yourself!
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