np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

Status
Not open for further replies.
BAN
this thing is riduculous. like, an amazing ability, movepool, decent base typing, and enough power to wreck everything, it has people running trash like alomomola or p2 to even stand a chance.seriously. p2. like, when people started running tentacruel to counter it, gren started running extrasensory. gren is just so easy to slap on a team its ridiculous. it does amazing on like every playstyle (barring stall). you can just change the moves to fit your team. it really doesnt HAVE to run any particular coverage, except maybe an ice move.

>suboptimal garbage
I'm not sure what you're talking about, but pory2 is good. Try not to be so narrow minded?
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 106-126 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 135-160 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Such garbage.
how does a calc with kyube vs p2 show how good it is with greninja. p2 isnt really a good mon anyways, its hella passive and its main niche is in its ability.

EDIT: the last part got ninja'd lmao
 
I personally think Greninja is one of the most useful mons in OU, and for that reason i think it should be banned. It is EXTREMELY over centralising, has an insane move pool and great stats allowing a player to slap it on virtually any team. Despite it's frailty it still puts in a lot of work and takes on a lot of pokemon in OU including the latis, skarmory, charizard x, gliscor, heatran, tyranitar etc. Tbh the only reason i wouldn't want it banned is because there are very VERY few pokemon that can take on it's role as a mixed/special wall breaker as well as it does, so it will be hard finding replacements for greninja in the teams I have him in.

Also Greninja will be the second starter in Ubers if it gets banned, please Gamefreak give us an OP grass type so we can have a full set. If they do someone had better make a game based around the Ubers tier. :P
 

p2

Banned deucer.
About time, I want this thing gone. The amount of pressure it puts on teambuilding is crazy, and the fact that can be extremely unpredictable with a very high speed means that it's very risky to try and play around and the cost of 1 wrong prediction just throws mons away, which means if you run offensive teams, you're going to have a bad time.

The only things that really counter it are Chansey, Porygon2 and Umbreon - regardless of set, Chansey can barely do anything back to Greninja as it can just set Spikes in its face, while Porygon2 and Umbreon aren't that great in OU, Umbreon was OK during the Aegislash meta, but it's a different time from then, and on top of that, they're all passive as hell.

I was perfectly fine with it before ORAS, but Gunk Shot and Low Kick have just pushed it over the line, ban it.

Is this...the last time...I'm going to see Greninja in...OU?
Wow...poor thing. It's going to have hell in Ubers...
Being bad in Ubers is not an argument for it staying in OU
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Okay, so for the fist few weeks of ORAS I didn't think Greninja was actually broken. I felt that it was difficult to handle, yes, but manageable. It does have a handful of checks on offense, the playstyle it was notorious for being excellent against. Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega-Manectric, priority users such as Bisharp and Talonflame all of these can revenge kill it. These can't switch in reliably, obviously, but offensive teams don't really switch things in as much as loosely check. And Greninja not only gets worn down very, very easily, but also has a hard time coming against anything offensive, so if you're able to force it out a few times you can beat it. Basiclly, if you only consider its matchup against hyper offense I don't find it to be broken.

I started to believe Greninja was broken when I realized that it really wasn't that much of a specialized HO-killer anymore. Well, it is, it's still pretty hard for that playstyle to handle, but not much more than in XY. The most significant thing that changed for it when ORAS came around is that instead of just killing offense, it went on to kill balance too. Oh my lord does this thing destroy balanced teams. It can come in multiple times, and the only common things on this archetype that can switch in and force it out are Tentacruel, Scarf Keldeo, and sometimes Ferrothorn, all of which of which lose to coverage, none of which can switch in repeatedly due to lack of recovery. Basically, the only answers to Greninja that fit on balanced teams now have no recovery, and so get easily worn down. The only actual counters to Greninja that don't lose to coverage (Chansey, P2) are extremely passive and therefore don't really fit on balanced teams.

Even against Stall teams, Greninja puts in work. Against some stalls all you really need to do is weaken Chansey to 65% (really easy; when is Chansey ever at over 80%?) wear down Tentacruel (not too hard, it has no recovery) and there you go you can just rip through it. And if you really want to be mean to Stall you can run Gunk Shot Low Kick Dark Pulse ESens if you want. Greninja puts more pressure on Stall teams than anything this fast or goo against offense should ever be allowed to.

Furthermore, its combination of high speed and coverage means you really don't need to predict much. Literally you can just mindlessly click one move after the next and still do quite well, because Greninja is unlikely to find itself in a situation where it becomes a liability for its team. For instance, you can get Greninja to Low Kick your Lando-T, but Lando-T isn't exactly the hardest thing to switch into generally so that isn't too much of a problem Only situation I can really think of where you need to predict or get screwed over it getting tricked into hitting Bisharp with a resisted move, and even then Bisharp has to win a 50/50 from there with Pursuit. It's not like the opponent can mess around with Greninja much either, so if you've got Greninja in a position where it can get a kill (not hard), it will almost always get that kill. Greninja is a ridiculous momentum-machine all around, it picks up momentum very easily and rarely ever loses it.

As good as Greninja is on paper, it's even better in practice. I think a big reason for that is that some of the most popular Pokemon in the metagame already give it all it needs to cut through weakened teams. For example, Latios puts pressure on Chansey, wears down Ferrothorn, switches into Scarf Keldeo. Lando-T wears down Ferro too, checks Scarf Magneton, checks Lopunny, switches into Sand Rush Drill and opposing Lando-Ts, gives it pivot support and therefore a way to come in for free. And those are both really good, really easily slappable Pokemon you'll be finding on most offensive teams. Greninja has such great synergy with the rest of the metagame that it usually already comes with all the support it requires (which is very minimal support btw) automatically. This makes it very hard to justify not using on any offensive or even balanced team since, chances are, Greninja will already fit on that team fine.

As for 4MSS : This isn't really that true? Or rather, this isn't really a problem for Greninja. It basically has one set right which is basically the best set in terms of overall coverage and consists of Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse. This set alone hits the vast majority of the metagame, you do miss out on a handful of things but none of them are too common or hard to counter to the point where not being able to 2HKO them is that detrimental to Greninja's effectivess. It can easily run coverage to get past these extra things, but I don't think this is evidence of 4MSS as much as having the option to hit stuff if your team requires it. Most of the time you'll be sticking to the standard set, the fact that you have the option to hit all those things is just a plus. I really don't think Greninja wouldn't be suspect-worthy if it could only learn Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse, it already has enough coverage with these 4 moves alone to hugely threaten most teams.

I think Greninja is broken as a cleaner. Its combination of speed, power, and coverage enables it to run through teams far more easily than any other Pokemon in the metagame, with minimal support or much skill either. It is far too easy to get to a point in the match where Greninja is guaranteed to get a kill without needing to even predict. It is also far too easy to weaken the team to the point where Greninja just wins from there. There is little to no reason to not run Greninja on offense, there isn't a matchup where it will be useless and it can even get past most of its usual checks via coverage. It's too easy to put on teams, too easy to use, too hard to check, and too hard to consistently deal with throughout the corse of a match to be healthy for this metagame.
Ban Greninja
 
Last edited:
Honestly idk why people are bringing up the "oh it has 4mss you need 6 slots to make it broken" argument. Remember Mega Lucario? you know, that overcentralizing threat that could seize the game depending on if you predicted it correctly? Greninja is doing that now- turning OU into a game of rock-paper-scissors where, for example, oh, it has Low Kick? Bam. Your Empoleon (or whatever people are using to check it these days) just died. Not only that, but you have to bring certain mons if you want to stand a chance, including suboptimal mons like P2. This isn't just being overprepared either, some of these "checks" are shaky at best- which are generally the more viable ones too. Honestly this thing is like the second coming of Megaluke (same influence, I'm not saying Greninja is on the same level as XY Mega Lucario), between making the whole game a game of "Which Coverage does Greninja Have? Guess Wrong and Your Team will be Severely Weakened!" and using some niche checks like P2.

Also, if you think this will be controversial, try going on to the Lobby on PS the day after Aegislash was banned.
 

MrAldo

Hey
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
BAN

Been waiting for this suspect test to happen. All the coverage this thing has is simply insane, only having 3 possible good switch-ins and one of them can be bopped by an extrasensory or even chansey could get 2hko with more atk investment after rocks... In greninja´s case its 4MSS is more a blessing than a curse cause it forces you to try to guess or scout what possible set that mon is running and you may need to sack something in the process trying to find what it has! The fact that you have to consider running a fast poke or a powerful scarfer just to revenge kill this thing is honestly plain ridiculous. This mon makes teambuilding a pain dedicating a mon just to deal with it.

Not good.
 
This test is going to be interesting. Greninja's movepool was never bad to begin with, but it only got better with ORAS. Protean gives it STAB on everything, and it's fast enough to outrun just about anything it wants, barring Scarf/boosted mons. Now people do make jabs at its somewhat lower offensive stats, but it still has enough power to OHKO or at least 2HKO damn near everything. It's frail, yes, but I've had it live +2 Sucker Punch from Bisharp while still a dark type, so there's that.

(edit: it does 81-96% with Black Glasses, but has a 1 in 4 chance to KO with LO, so obviously be careful with that, and you won't be staying in on it if you play it right)

But is it broken? This is a question I can't decide an answer to yet. That being said, however, I'm leaning towards banning it, because its biggest perk imo is its versatility. Yes, it does have 4MSS, but one Greninja does not have to take everything out by itself, that's what you have teammates for. It also opens up a lot of holes for teammates to sweep on its own by taking out fast stuff like Lati@s and Gengar and making dents in Skarmory, Chansey, or whatever else your wincon needs gone.

Also, not sure if we can discuss this yet, but what kind of majority will it need to ban? (i.e., simple, 60%, etc.)
 
Last edited:
http://sweepercalc.com/rmt/
import Greninjas and click "wall it"

used Greninjas
Greninja (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Extrasensory
- Grass Knot

Greninja (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Scald
- Dark Pulse
- Low Kick
- Gunk Shot


I used two Greninjas because I wanted to cover those attacks:
Hydro Pump
Scald
Dark Pulse
Ice Beam
Extrasensory
Low Kick
Gunk Shot


Porygon2
(Physically Defensive)
36.8% - 43.8%
Hydro Pump
27% - 32.3%
Scald




Porygon2
(Specially Defensive)
32% - 38.2%
Low Kick
32% - 38.2%
Low Kick




Chansey
(Support)
33.1% - 39.2%
Low Kick
33.1% - 39.2%
Low Kick




Chansey
(Wish Support)
33.1% - 39.2%
Low Kick
33.1% - 39.2%
Low Kick




Porygon2
(Trick Room Support)
36.8% - 43.8%
Hydro Pump
32% - 38.2%
Low Kick




Manaphy
(Calm Mind)
35.6% - 42.5%
Extrasensory
35.6% - 42.5%
Dark Pulse




Scizor-Mega
(Bulky Swords Dance)
48.9% - 58%
Hydro Pump
35.5% - 42.5%
Scald




Scizor-Mega
(Roost + 3 Attacks)
49.2% - 58.3%
Hydro Pump
35.5% - 42.5%
Scald




Greninja
(All-Out Attacker)
46.6% - 54.7%
Hydro Pump
38.5% - 46.6%
Low Kick




Greninja
(Spikes)
46.6% - 54.7%
Hydro Pump
38.5% - 46.6%
Low Kick




Cresselia
(Dual Screens)
35.4% - 42.2%
Hydro Pump
51.6% - 61.6%
Dark Pulse




Jirachi
(Wishmaker)
35.1% - 41.8%
Hydro Pump
52.2% - 61.8%
Dark Pulse




Cresselia
(Defensive)
35.3% - 42.1%
Hydro Pump
52.7% - 62.1%
Dark Pulse




Manaphy
(Tail Glow + Rain Dance)
44.1% - 52.3%
Gunk Shot
44.1% - 52.3%
Gunk Shot




Manaphy
(Tail Glow)
44.5% - 52.9%
Gunk Shot
44.5% - 52.9%
Gunk Shot




Blissey
(Cleric)
44.7% - 52.7%
Gunk Shot
44.7% - 52.7%
Gunk Shot




Blissey
(Wish Passer)
44.7% - 52.7%
Gunk Shot
44.7% - 52.7%
Gunk Shot




Rotom-Wash
(Defensive)
44.8% - 53.1%
Extrasensory
44.8% - 53.1%
Dark Pulse




Charizard-Mega-X
(Bulky Will-O-Wisp)
48.7% - 57.9%
Hydro Pump
41.2% - 48.7%
Gunk Shot
 
BAN
this thing is riduculous. like, an amazing ability, movepool, decent base typing, and enough power to wreck everything, it has people running trash like alomomola or p2 to even stand a chance.seriously. p2. like, when people started running tentacruel to counter it, gren started running extrasensory. gren is just so easy to slap on a team its ridiculous. it does amazing on like every playstyle (barring stall). you can just change the moves to fit your team. it really doesnt HAVE to run any particular coverage, except maybe an ice move.


how does a calc with kyube vs p2 show how good it is with greninja. p2 isnt really a good mon anyways, its hella passive and its main niche is in its ability.

EDIT: the last part got ninja'd lmao
I didn't really say that it's good against gren, but it is. I can't imagine a non-full atk greninja low kick is doing more than max atk outrage kyu-B...
 
Ah Greninja. It's sad to see my favorite Pokemon get suspected, but it is honestly well-deserved at this point. Its combination of speed and powerful coverage is overwhelming for the tier right now and a bit restricting for teambuilding. Scarfed Pokemon are more popular than ever with Greninja's rise and stall, bulky offense and even certain balance teams find themselves needing to have at least two defensive Greninja checks in order to survive. Let's take a lot at Greninja's pros and cons:

Pros:
  • Incredible speed at 122 base speed, outpacing Tornadus-T, Starmie, Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Choice Scarf Tyranitar and many more Pokemon.
  • Excellent ability in Protean, giving it STAB on all coverage moves and changing its type each turn it's on the field.
  • Wide special movepool and decent physical movepool that, combined with Protean, leaves Porygon2 as the only true counter
  • Can set up Spikes
  • Can use U-turn to ease prediction
  • Highly unpredictable because of its coverage and ability to go mixed
Cons:
  • Very frail; hard to get in outside of revenge killing and predicted switches
  • Often kills itself with Life Orb damage
  • Weak to priority because of its low Defense and HP and lack of strong priority for itself, though it can take certain priority moves depending on what type it is
Greninja's biggest problem is that it only has one counter in the uncommon Porygon2. The artificial duck has only gotten a little over 2% usage in November, which is at its peak since it's gotten more usage because it countered Greninja and the recently banned Mega Salamence. It's not such a bad Pokemon and its bulk is outstanding, but outside of that, the duck does little else outside of taking hits, spreading status, and hitting with somewhat weak special attacks.

Before Greninja got Gunk Shot and Low Kick from the ORAS move tutors, one could rely on Chansey, Azumarill or Clefable to force it out as well. Tentacruel, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Manaphy and specially defensive Gyarados were (and still are) fairly reliable switch-ins as well, but they could get 2HKOed by various coverage moves like Extrasensory, Hidden Power Grass and Grass Knot. Now Azumarill and Clefable are extremely risky switch-ins since Gunk Shot is such a valuable move on ninja froggy now and even Chansey can fall to a couple Gunk Shots/Low Kicks since Greninja can viably run physically based mixed sets now.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-321 (42.5 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

When Greninja goes on the field, you never truly know what it's going to do and can only use your best judgement to know what to switch into each time you face one.

This is only furthered by its very high speed, which most things that have no real counters (like Dragalge for example) don't have to same access to. This makes switch-ins for offensive teams hard to find since they have to be able to take a hit from Greninja and them fire back to OHKO before it can strike again. Depending on the circumstances, Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Heatran are capable of doing this, but even they are shaky since they can easily fall to an Extransensory or a Hydro Pump / Low Kick on the switch, respectively. Greninja is most easily dealt with by sending out something faster after something on your team has already died, and that makes it a pain.

That brings us to another annoying thing about Greninja: it doesn't care if it is forced out or not. It doesn't need to boost. It doesn't need to keep a Substitute up. It is just there waiting to fire and it never needs to set up to do so. The only thing making it cautious to switch out is entry hazards, none of which it is weak to more than the average Pokemon is. By forcing it out, you've accomplished little, as it can just come back any time the same as it was before.

However, as mentioned in the cons section, it is a must for it to have a Life Orb to be as threatening as it is, meaning that in combination with its poor bulk, it gets worn down extremely easily. Once it switches into an attack, it must use its attacks very carefully if it wants to make the most of its time in battle. A misplay could cost Greninja its life. Being a Dark type naturally, it is also one of the better Knock Off switch-ins on Offense, meaning that it will often lose its Life Orb in dire times.

It is weak to priority moves, though while it's Water/Dark it resists three common priority moves in Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch and Bullet Punch, though that is not always the case since its typing changes each time it moves. As a general rule, Talonflame is an excellent revenge killer since a Brave Bird will usually get the job done. Jolly Talonflame can even U-turn out when it expects some Rock or Electric type to switch into it. Conkeldurr is also fairly decent at revenge killing with Mach Punch and can switch into most of Greninja's attacks (Ice Beam and Dark Pulse in particular), but Gunk Shot and Extrasensory make this difficult.

While we can deal with Greninja with good prediction and careful teambuilding, our favorite ninja frog causes a lot of strain in teambuilding and in battle. I am leaning towards a ban for now, as sad as I will be to see it go to Ubers.
 
Last edited:

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm going to post my thoughts before this thread inevitably becomes a cess pool of cancerous posts.

Greninja is a perfect example of a Pokemon that has all the tools it needs to successful, and that's actually an understatement. It has everything it could ever ask for. It's fast, pretty strong because it has STAB on everything, and has coverage for nearly every notable threat in the metagame, offensive and defensive. Its 4MSS doesn't even come close to making it less broken, because it can basically pick and choose what it beats depending on your team. Is your team a little Ferro weak? Use HP Fire. Want to lure Keldeo and Tentacruel? Extrasensory. Want to pressure offense even harder? Use Spikes. People still using AV Kyurem-B to beat you? Then just use Low Kick. Want Greninja to have better synergy with Volt-turn teams? Give it U-turn.

Outside of shit like Chansey which can only fit well on stall and shitty balanced teams , P-2 which is mediocre at best, and specially defensive Alo which hates being poisoned by Gunk Shot and is easy as hell to take advantage of, there is absolutely nothing that can reliably switch into Greninja without fearing some kind of coverage move. It doesn't matter that it can't carry all of its moves at the same time; just the sheer fact that it CAN run any of those coverage moves to fuck you is good enough. Sure your Tentacruel can beat most Greninja variants out there, but that one time you run into someone using Extrasensory, your Tentacruel becomes a liability. Yeah Ferro can check standard Greninja pretty well, but if it just so happens to carry HP Fire it just dies in one hit.

Greninja's ability to basically check 75% of the metagame while having basically zero reliable counters as well as a limited pool of checks because of its insane Speed stat which puts it above a huge portion of the metagame, is way too much for the metagame and keeping it around any longer will only hurt the development of the OU metagame. To be honest, its got a point where I don't even bother trying so hard to prepare for Greninja anymore because none of them are really reliable anyway, especially if you're an avid player of offense such as myself. Half the time its just you baiting it to use a move like Gunk shot on your Clef or Azumarill so you can get Lando-T in for free, but unless your opponent is an idiot, he'll see right through that play and just go for a Hydro or Ice Beam. And that's what I'm trying to get across to some of you people who think Greninja isn't broken. There really isn't a solid reliable way in dealing with Greninja offensively or defensively, and every time Greninja is sent out in play it basically gives the player using it a shit ton of momentum.

You're always going to be Greninja weak, because until you know its entire moveset it could be carrying a move to fuck you with. Its fragility rarely ever comes into play because of how fast it is, and how its insane coverage allows it to hit most of the metagame for super effective damage, thus preventing it from needing to take any hits. Greninja to me is the embodiment of an unhealthy offensive Pokemon, and its small list of flaws is heavily made up for by its retarded as fuck movepool, speed, Protean, and just the amount of sheer pressure it puts on every single archetype.

Ban Greninja all the way. Keeping it around any longer would be a foolish idea in my opinion.

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Greninja: 100-100 (35 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
30 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Alomomola: 130-153 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 232 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 165-196 (31.1 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I vote for not banned :]

It has begun.
 
I'm all for a ban because of it's sheer offensive power and the restrictions it puts on teambuilding.

Greninja reminds me a lot of BW Keldeo in that it can pick and choose its counters but unlike BW Keldeo, its movepool isn't limited to Fighting coverage + Water coverage + Ice coverage and whatever choice of hidden power it needs. It gets every move it needs to outright wreck potential checks and since theres no 'Greninja' preview like there's a team preview, you're either forced to run 2 checks that Greninja can't reasonably break through with its choice of moves. Either that or run a scarfer or one of the handful of Pokemon that outspeed it naturally. Not to mention you can customize it to take out pretty much any threat you need it to, bar Chansey (which it can even set hazards up on!). It's the perfect pokemon for offense and theres not much that reliably counter it without resorting to guesswork. But at the same time it's a nightmare for offense to face because it can net so many quick KOs because of its unpredictability.
 
Last edited:
Greninja went from being amazing in XY OU (I recall it being S-rank towards the end of XY) to just outright broken in ORAS. It already was one of the best offensive Pokémon in the tier.

It no longer has surefire ways to be countered, as it has even more coverage because of move tutors (Gunk Shot, Low Kick), as its previous main counters in XY (Azumarill, Chansey) can now easily be taken out. While it definitely suffers from 4MSS, you have to guess what moves it's running, because of the extreme variety in its movepool.

While this in itself isn't a good enough reason for it to be suspected, many Pokémon in OU have a lot of viable movesets too, but Greninja also has the ability Protean, making all moves do 1.5x more damage and combine this with a Life Orb and 122 Speed and you have an incredibly threatening Mixed attacker, although 95/103 in offense aren't the best, it's still a bit too overcentralising, forcing players to run niche Pokémon such as Empoleon, Alomomola or Porygon2, which outside of barely countering Greninja are not that good otherwise in OU.

I'm all for a ban, Smog Frog pls go
 
XY Mega Lucario was different in that if you got the set wrong as it set up, it swept you. Greninja kills one mon. It's more like guessing Charizard's megastone, really...
Okay, the Mega Lucario comparison was kind of wrong, I admit that, but you're severely underestimating how much damage Greninja can do to teams without these niche checks on them. Not much can switch in, and those that can take a hit generally are stall mons anyway, discouraging offense.

DO NOT BAN !

Because gunk shot have 70 of accuracy :) ! And make 2 gunk shot following it's just HAXX.... XD !
Also, "Gunk Shot has 70 accuracy" is not really a point, as A. it's 80 iirc and B. you know Low Kick is also why it's broken too, letting it muscle past Empoleon and other would-be counters/checks.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Interesting Calc... Low Kick however, kills it ofc (2HKO).
Most versions of Greninja does not though carry Low Kick. So Empoleon is basically nice counter to it.

I am aware of the fact that this just proved that there is one counter to majority of Greninjas and it does not state that Greninja shouldn't be banned.

AS FOR ME: I can't really say whether he should be banned or not. I am not that easily determined like you, I find ORAS OU Metagame quite new and it just begun, I need more time to see it growing. Most of people doesn't trully know potential of all new sets.

I wouldn't definately Suspect anything from the early beginning. THAT MEANS, AS FOR ME, NOT BAN.
 
I honestly dont know about this one.

On the one hand its just so incredibly annoying during teambuilding that i want it gone. So many times i find myself building teams that are pretty good except that they risk getting 6-0ed by certain Greninja sets. You cant be save against this thing by running a check, or any two checks, you need to have two or even 3 checks with different vulnerablities to cover each other. Right now psn types like Tentacruel are somewhat decent switch ins but whats gonna happen when people realize that Gunk shot isnt even that needed anymore because its mere existence basicly invalidated AV Azu and mixed Clefable sets. Nobody is going to run these sets, whose only real purpose was to check Greninja, if they get fucked up by Gunk shot. And if people start running Extrasensory more frequently its going to be even more of a pain than it is now.

Then on the other hand, its very possible to play around this thing even if your team looks vulnerable to it on paper. SR and life orb wear it down quickly and with some pivoting its usually possible to force it out without taking much damage. It can try to predict the switches but as frail as it is a misspredict can be deadly if the opponent just stays in intending to sac his mon.

Broken on paper, borderline in practise, guess that still makes a banworthy mon though
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Requesting for the NP be this (make it Haunter pls Greninja is not a turtle :L)


I'm not an avid OU player (and I probably won't take part on this test because I hate suspect laddering) but one thing I know for sure about Greninja besides it being broken: 4MSS is actually a pro-ban argument. Think about for a moment. Greninja can be tailored according to the team needs, and the surprise value may turn a 6-0 into a 0-6 in a single turn. Bring Empoleon and it dies to Low Kick. Bring Ferrothorn and it dies to HP Fire. Bring Rotom-W and it dies to HP Grass. Bring Mega Camerupt (I'mreally going down there, folks) and it dies to Water move. So please stop saying Greninja's big array of options is an argument for making it stay in OU because it's not called 4 Moveslot Syndrome at all, it's called versatility; a versatility that restricts teambuilding and causes an enormous amount of pressure during battle.

TL;DR: Ban Greninja, 4MSS is not a valid point for keeping it, and change the NP to this.
 
So, the suspect test is finally on.

In the last steps of the beautiful XY OU metagame (imho), Greninja was probably the best pokemon in the tier. The Protean ability and the amazing speed tier he was at, made him one of the defining forces of the metagame. The move Spikes even found him another niche on the best offensive teams of the late meta era. You definitely had to prepare for this threat. Some of the most used mons as answers for Greninja were AV Azumarill, 96+ SpDef Clefable, Sylveon, Empoleon, Chansey, Cresselia on balanced or defensive teams, while Hyper Offense had to rely on scarfers, priority or Weavile / Mega Manectric to deal with this thing. Now thing are different tho. ORAS came out, and Greninja got new moves in Gunk Shot and Low Kick. Gunk Shot now easily destroys Azumarill, Sylveon and Clefable; Low Kick destroys Empoleon, and serves as a more reliable way to deal with AV Tyranitar. And if you renounce to Hydro Pump, you still have a way to damage SpDef Heatran with it. The only few counters this mon had, now are not counters anymore.

Chansey and Specially Defensive Porygon-2 are probably the thing that most look like as a counter. But you just can’t slap a Chansey on every offensive team, and Porygon-2 is bad in a full-of-knock-off meta. Even then, Chansey doesn’t really appreciate a Gunk Shot and his poison chance (30% is a lot). Let’s see this calc:
16 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 218-257 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- 62.9% chance to 3HKO

In the worst case scenario for the Chansey player, you need ((36.5*2)+12+12)=97% health while switching in to survive two max roll gunk shot, the possible poison in the first turn and rocks (extreme case I know, but that shows how Greninja f*cks up even his most viable “counter” given the right conditions).

Some of you might argue “But Greninja only has 4 moves, xDDD”. No, please. Shut up. How do you know which moves Greninja is packing? You don’t. You have an Assault Vest Conkeldurr in the back? Too bad Greninja has Extrasensory and deals you 60% on the switch. Ferrothorn is nothing if Gren has HP Fire. Max SpDef Tentacruel takes at least 50% from the psychic type frog. Kyurem-B is now OHKO’d by Low Kick given a decent roll. Klefki and Thundurus can paralyze it, or Gren can just switch out, nullyfing your efforts. Mew and Cresselia are destroyed by Dark Pulse, and the latter can just get flinched and not even paralyze it.
Let’s say you are running hyper offense. Can you imagine you switching in your Scarf Keldeo against the opposing Greninja only to get OHKO’d by Extrasensory? That’d be painful to watch.

tl;dr Yes, Greninja only has 4 moves, but in order to scout them all, you will most likely sack something to it, or let something gets too weakened by it.
Power is not everything. 103 base special attack is laughable, but STAB on everything and godly coverage isn’t, really. Let’s ban this thing.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
As well as this Sweeper calc showing what greninja does minimal damage to. Several of these can switch in and win a 1v1 against. http://pastebin.com/1xwCuVCd

My vote is much more informed now, and it stands at not ban
You seem to be missing the point, Greninja isn't a suspect because it demolishes defensive teams, Greninja makes it almost impossible to run offense in the current meta game because it is pretty much getting a kill every time it comes in. Those calcs are cute but they all fall into one of three categories 1) Pokemon that only fit on full stall (ex. Chansey, Mega Aggron, Blissey, etc.), 2) Pokemon that are otherwise terrible aside from checking Greninja some of the time (Mega Blastoise, Porygon 2, Volcarona) or 3) lose to Greninja as demonstrated by your calcs (Keldeo, your own Greninja (rofl balanced because you can use it too)). So essentially it would be much better to give examples of good Pokemon that fit on offensively oriented teams.
 

Jukain

!_!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I am rather on the fence for Greninja as it stands though potentially leaning towards ban. There is no denying that it is one of the most devastating offensive Pokemon in the current metagame, especially to balanced teams, and that it truly has an extremely limited number of switch-ins/direct answers the current metagame. A set of Low Kick / Gunk Shot / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse (the standard one) is absolutely devastating to much of the tier. Contrary to what others might say, I don't think Greninja really has 4MSS because this set hits almost everything regardless; but in terms of EVs and small tweaks in moveset it can still be tailored to hit literally anything (Tentacruel loses to Extrasensory, Chansey loses to 244 Atk Gunk Shot, so they can be taken out if that's what Greninja's team requires). Another point that could be made is the somewhat limiting effect Greninja has on teambuilding, in combination with some of the other new threats from ORAS. ORAS OU is commonly referred to as a team-restrictive metagame and that is because of the way some of these strong, fast threats can punish slower teams that don't pack dedicated counters to them, which necessitates a more offensive or defensive approach as opposed to taking a middle-of-the-road path. I'm not saying that balance is unviable because then I'd be lying, but the polarizing effect Greninja and certain other current top threats have on that sort of build is undeniable.

With that said, there have been some pro-ban arguments in this thread that present flawed arguments, at least in my opinion.

First of all, individuals have stated that Chansey does not counter Low Kick Greninja; this is simply not true at all. In fact, Gunk Shot (120 BP) and Low Kick (60*2=120 BP) have the same effectiveness against Chansey. Greninja can opt for a 244 Atk lure set that can break Chansey, but this isn't generally the most effective option to the effect that the vast majority of teams should not run it and for that reason it isn't very common.

Albacore stall is not weak to Greninja by any means. If Chansey is running max HP (which it should at this point) and played conservatively you well have the ability to keep it at the health required to counter Greninja and it's much harder to get up Stealth Rock with Mega Sableye in the picture, so unless you pack one of the limited number of SR setters that can actually set the hazard against Mega Sableye and depending on what they run keep it up against the likes of Tentacruel or Defog Skarmory, then good luck wearing down Chansey easily. In addition to Chansey, there is Alomomola, Mega Sableye with a bit of SDef (running Calm and a bit of SDef isn't uncommon, and it counters non-Hydro Pump Greninja which is currently the most common as they run Low Kick, max SDef counters those variants too), Tentacruel, RestTalk Gyarados, defensive Mega Venusaur, and SDef Cresselia. I have used a variety of stall builds with varying degrees of success, but Greninja is never something I'm that concerned about, as its defensive answers are right at home on stall. At worst, you can wear out Greninja with hazards and Life Orb damage, as it doesn't last forever and there are enough Pokemon with resistances and bulk that can be used to aid in playing around it despite not technically 'countering' it.

I also think that offense has a more than reasonable amount of tools to deal with Greninja. Keldeo (Scarf variants being an solid check), Klefki, Scarf Landorus-T/Latios, Mega Lopunny/Beedrill/Sceptile, Scarf Magneton, strong priority, Mega Scizor, AV Conkeldurr, Thundurus-I's TWave, Scarf Kyurem-B, Manaphy, and SR Excadrill, offense has more than enough checks/revenge killing tools to get around Greninja. Sure it might kill one or two Pokemon, but you also have to use the mindset that this is offense and not stall or something where having to use sacs is both acceptable and a focal point of strategy in some cases. It's not like I'm arguing that Greninja has a bad matchup against offense, but the idea that it 'devastates offense' is heavily exaggerated.

The main issue I have with Greninja that makes me think it might be worthy of a ban at this point is the polarizing and devastating effect it has on any type of slower team or balanced build attempting to function in this metagame. The problem is that Greninja's answers are heavily limited, especially since you can't just slap on 96+ SDef Clef anymore and Ferrothorn is a much less sure answer than before because it went from being hit by a move that wasn't /that/ common (HP Fire) to one considered standard (Low Kick), so this is different than preparing for any other top-tier threat. That is the primary reason that, despite some of the flaws in pro-ban arguments, I am leaning towards supporting a Ban in the current state of the metagame.
 
Aight its time to go ahead and post my thoughts on this thread before it devolves into whatever horrible disease here by page 6.

No Ban Args

- 4MSS: It can't have all the moves at once, so just "play around it"

- "It's my favorite Pokemon!"

- Frailty: Ok you got me here. Not like it needs to have chansey bulk when it 2hkos the entire meta tho :[




Ban Args

- Nothing actually switches in. The unique coverage of moves for Greninja makes sure that counters are few and far between. Even stuff like Empoleon can be 2hko'd by Low Kick, and your only "safe" switch in is Tentacruel which takes a lot of damage from a stray extrasensory. Bottom line, crazy movepool, nothin switches in.

- Hinders teambuilding. I was tryin to build some ORAS OU teams with my buddy the other day and it limits teambuilding like no other. You can try to prepare for ninja, but at some point, you can only do so much. Having to pack at least 2 mons to cover its wide range of moves often turns a solid team into a bad one, and there's no reason for a limiting force this great to stay in the meta tbh.

- Makes playstyles unviable. see above tbh also when you have to build around alomomola + chansey cores u know the meta is wayy to centralized and this mon is borked
 
Alright, I don't play OU often at all but Greninja needs to go. It has the capability to dismantle balance and offense, and counters are basically limited to blobs and pory2. The 4MSS goes both ways, while it kinda limits it in battle(not really a set of Low Kick | Gunk Shot | Ice Beam | Dark Pulse 2HKOs everything relevant with proper prediction except for spdef tentacruel, spdef mola, spdef mega sableye, crocune, and the aforementioned mons, which only fit on stall, some of which are only ised for greninja), it also makes it a lot more threatening in battle when you consider that you don't know what two coverage moves it could be running(Ice Beam + Gunk Shot are given). It's also such a hindrance to teambuilding, even for stall where people are needing to build around like mola + chan lol

Would also like some posters, mainly most of the no ban ones, to read this.

and most of this was already said when i was typing this nice
 
Once you scout Greninja's moveset it becomes so much easier to deal with though. Rotom-W does a decent job of checking it without HP Grass. It hates priority, can't switch in often to hazards. If it's paralyzed it's done, if you status it at all w/ life orb it becomes very short lived. Bulky water types in general do a good job of checking it, with how much residual it takes a status is basically a death sentence.

I think as previously mentioned, Greninja doesn't just walk through everything in offense anyway. Unless you're predicted on every switch you make it's pretty unlikely Greninja will be primed to two shot you next turn, I can understand people wanting it banned as it does centralize the meta, but what deadly offensive threat doesn't?

Greninja is not uncheckable on a one on one it's going to lose out most of the time, it is very hard to counter however, but it will always be vulnerable to status and hazards and it's frail, very frail. I'm about 60/40 Not ban. If you outfox your opponent and get hazards out or status Greninja you've instantly impeded it immensely. Honestly from my experience using it I feel like I need a spinner for Greninja more than I do Talonflame or Charizard.
 
I am going to start off by saying that Greninja makes teambuilding balance teams and playing with them extremely difficult. None greninja's so called counters fit on balance relatively well. Porygon2 and Chansey are far to passive to be used effectively on a balanced team. I find myself often having to play flawlessly just to beat Greninja when I have at least one check for it and a revenge killer on my team even when my opponent is making questionable plays. Greninja's movepool greatly reduced it's reliable checks and counters on balance since it can utilize gunk shot to deal with Clefable and AV Raikou. Another problem is Greninja's large viable movepool makes it have barely any true viable safe switch ins. I know that there are other viable pokemon in OU that have that characteristic but none that I can think of have the potent speed or offensive capabilities of Greninja. These traits as well as supporting evidence from Jukain's and Gary2346's posts are why I believe Greninja should be banned.
 
On another Greninja related note: with all the bans already on the meta, what would the meta look like if we reset the bans when ORAS was released? I mean even the new Greninja couldn't touch Blaziken, Mawile, Aegislash, etc. We're undergoing a cascading ban series. These Pokemon balance each other. Greninja will be followed by Slowbro(who should be banned way before greninja, you have to run toxic on every team).
Alright, no. First off I'm pretty sure this is covered in the etiquette thread to not be talked about.
Second off, if we unban everything the metagame ends up far worse because instead of being centralized around one Pokémon and it's few checks, the metagame becomes centralized around like six Pokémon and that is in no way better. They've all been banned for different reasons and nothing has happened in ORAS that makes any of them less broken.
Mega Slowbro is way too flawed to even be S-rank right now, never mind a suspect.

Got to love how we just suddenly got a slew of No Ban posts from members with a postcount under 10.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top