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Another example or Haunter's scenario. A person has decided that the pokemon out against you is little more than death fodder and decides to leave it in to scout a move. You overpredict, Roob paybacks you to hell/weakened Buru Shadow Balls you/weakened nattorei Gyro balls you etc.
That's why it's called prediction. Any stupid newb can play a Reuniclus but only a smart player can play Reuniclus successfully. When it comes right down to it you need to play around Reuniclus to beat it. But playing around it is incredebly easy to do and with a little prediction and power you can break through it easily.
@Chris P. Bacon
....I think you did the Calcs wrong somewhere. 252atk +0 Adamant Technician Choice Band Bug Bite is doing 99.1% - 116.5% to 252/252 Bold Reuniclus.
I wasn't gonna give you shit about Bug Bite. I agree with you that it's viable and it's so incredably fun to mind fuck your opponents into thinking you got superpower.
Edit: I see where you went wrong. You put the +1 and choice band on the same calc. Take off the +1 and try again.
I run Sp. Def. Tar, and I run Pursuit. And you'd be surprised: switching pursuit can OHKO Latios. It does 89.4% - 105.3%, which is essentially guaranteed after a bit of damage from SS, rocks or something.
I believe he's asking if TTar can OHKO a Latios that decides to stay in and use surf. In this case the answer is no, though defensive CB TTar just needs around 52 Atk EVs to ensure the KO after SR and SS (76.2% - 90.1%).
This community got so banhappy over the course of 4th gen.....
If we had this community vote on Suspects in the older gens Tauros in RBY, Snorlax in GSC and Jirachi/Celebi in ADV would have been Uber too. Maybe learn to adjust???
Just a few hints im throwing out there:
Max HP/Max SDef-TTar is perfectly viable. Exspecially when coupled with a CB and Pursuit those pesky Latios/Latias are nothing. (2hko with Pursuit if they stay in, they cant 2hko.) Not to mention that one can abuse the fac that Latios is choiced and set up on him with Skarmory/Nattorei/w.e..
Just use Haze versus Reuniclus. Every Haze member out there is faster than Reuniclus and some of them are perfectly viable in other scenarios too (i.e. Haze-Dragonite). Perish Song works too, if you can phaze him til end game and conserve 1 of its 8 PP for this situation.
Sometimes I don't even run Pursuit on TTar. Here would be how I'd manage Latios in a lazy way.
All I really need here is Tyranitar (because I mentioned TTar on the first sentence), a bulky Steel (which most teams have anyways. For the sake of this example this Steel is not Nattorei or Jirachi because they pretty much completely wall Latios), and something faster than Latios (I'll use Doryuuzu in this case). Oh and a Water resist of some sort that'd probably die to Latios' other attacks. This seems like a lot but team with Tyranitar very very often have all of these.
Let's suppose I have SR down already. Latios comes in at 87.5%
I send in ttar, he Surfs. Sandstorm rages. Latios is at 81.25%
Latios switches out, TTar does w/e.
Latios comes back in later in the game, for free again (probably me playing badly). Latios is now at 68.75%
Because I decided not to care about predicting Surf, I send in TTar to get 2HKOed (assuming their weather changer is dead/nonexistent. Else I probably would send in my Steel). Latios takes two turns worth of Sand damage and is now at 56.25%. I could probably avoid losing Tyranitar at this point, but as I'm said I'm too lazy to predict.
I can now revenge it with Doryuuzu. This means Latios won't get a chance to sweep as long as Dory is alive.
Should Latios come in for free again, I still have the Steel to take on DMs, who probably could probably take two hits from Latios. I mentioned that this Steel isn't Nattorei or Jirachi. However, the two other common Steels - Skarmory or Scizor, can Roost, so they can avoid being worn down the time Latios comes in again. Or I can predict the Surf and send in a Water resist, just how people would predict between Fire Blast and Draco Meteor from the other Dragons...
Also, if it uses Trick, it becomes significantly less powerful.
And this isn't taking into account any direct damages Latios would likely receive upon switching in. And this is taking into account Latios using Surf every time I send in something that would otherwise be able to absorb a Draco Meteor. I didn't mention Latios dying but let's get real here. During the time its out its teammates are probably suffering and if they keep Latios alive and leave their teammates in the dust then be my guest.
Tyranitar doesn't even require Pursuit. It's pretty obvious that after you've Pursuited a Latios recovering a Draco Meteor, many things will try and set up on you, making it a pretty bad nail in his moveslot syndrome. Like Jibaku pointed out, a bulky Tyranitar may be all you need to be a threat to a Lati@s using team. I personally use the infamous BOAH set to check most forms of Stall (in Nattorei and Jellicent and Skarmory) AND switch in to Latios. Once Latios switches out, it enables me to set up a bulky Substitute and have fun. I'm even dying to use a Specially Defensive set with Dragon Tail to ward out my would-be counters once my targets are done. It's my own lazy way of managing the Latios / Reuniclus-infested metagame right now, even if it doesn't take advantage of its more outstanding qualities.
Also, taking the metagame into consideration, I don't think we're "getting ban happy" about this. All the bans we've implemented thus far have good justifications for being used (broken Inconsistent and forceful Drizzle + Swift Swim). While Aldaron's Proposal is an exception, I'm okay with it, since I don't have to run stupid things to counter up Kingdra. As far as the Suspect tests go, Latios is my main target. Reuniclus is pretty okay, just Latios because of Specs Draco Meteor (hey, BOAH cant last long).
Although not Uber (yet, although...) Cloyster should be given thougt to as a major problem again in my opinion. Cloyster is the best Shell Smasher and with the disallowing of easy Swift Swimming, opens the possibilities of so many opportunities for Cloyster to come in.
At -1 as well, it could survive Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch, non Guts Roopushin Mach Punch, Infernape Mach Punch, etc as long as it didn't get a taste of Stealth Rock+Life Orb recoil together with -1 Def. I would also like to point out it resists Choice Band Azumarill Aqua Jet (it LAUGHS even after -1 at min hp at Aqua Jet, hell, Aqua Jet is set up although you should just attack it to stop it from try to Super Power) which is seen because of Doryuzu and Blaziken. It outspeeds Blaziken after the +1, murders Breloom with Ice Shard (I don't care about the coverage, murdering Breloom is more important) and still murders almost everything barring water/ice for a 1-2 hit ko after Shell Smash and Vaporeon actually can't beat it since +2 Icicle Spear is a 2 hit ko although it could roar it out.
The things that outspeed Cloyster are fairly limited to Sunny Day Pokes (many of whom are grass type and would struggle against Ice Shard unless they're Tangrowth since it ohkoes all others), Swift Swim (which is rare due to the Swift Swim/Drizzle together ban but still possible), Doryuzu in sand, and Scarf variants of 110+ speed pokes. And Scarf Variants get killed by the +2 Ice Shard (Tornelos, Voltlos, Latios) as well as getting past Mischievious Heart because of the equal priority making it come down to speed (which after Shell Smash Cloyster wins). Actually, because of the lesser appearance of Roopushin, no Breloom in non Dream World (although Ice Shard handles it either way), no Ditto in non Dream world as well as being fairly predictable if Ditto comes, there actually isn't much that can truly stop Cloyster. You'd need a really bulky fast poke (after Shell Smash almost non-existent outside of things like Hp Electric Suicune which hasn't been seen in forever) or a very bulky Mach Puncher and/or to weaken it off from recoil. Actually thinking about it, I'm kind of scared again because the only reason Cloyster fell out of popularity because of the nightmare Drizzle era which Cloyster could do shit against and the Ubers+Inconsistent previously.
Cloyster has quite a number of switchin opportunities now especially with the decline of Roopushin and sharp usage of things like Gliscor...
Team usage: mainly a... sand team
Record with said team: 5-0
High-profile enemies: 2 Blaziken, 1 Reuniclus, 1 Thundurus, 1 Excadrill, though my sand team only faced the Excadrill
Comments:
A "sand" team that I put together to really test the power of sand got a rough start yesterday, but today it got a tie, followed by five wins, followed by another tie. An enemy Excadrill tried to sweep the team, but my own Excadrill took care of that. Other teams have been suffering from the same pattern of dumb losses (not the one from yesterday, though; I didn't use it); if I didn't know better I'd claim that Blaziken and CM Reuniclus are freakin ridiculous. But yeah, I'm trying to salvage these teams, but I'm finding it hard to do so.
I did manage to name my Reuniclus "400 BABIES". Thoughts?
Although not Uber (yet, although...) Cloyster should be given thougt to as a major problem again in my opinion. Cloyster is the best Shell Smasher and with the disallowing of easy Swift Swimming, opens the possibilities of so many opportunities for Cloyster to come in.
At -1 as well, it could survive Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch, non Guts Roopushin Mach Punch, Infernape Mach Punch, etc as long as it didn't get a taste of Stealth Rock+Life Orb recoil together with -1 Def. I would also like to point out it resists Choice Band Azumarill Aqua Jet (it LAUGHS even after -1 at min hp at Aqua Jet, hell, Aqua Jet is set up although you should just attack it to stop it from try to Super Power) which is seen because of Doryuzu and Blaziken. It outspeeds Blaziken after the +1, murders Breloom with Ice Shard (I don't care about the coverage, murdering Breloom is more important) and still murders almost everything barring water/ice for a 1-2 hit ko after Shell Smash and Vaporeon actually can't beat it since +2 Icicle Spear is a 2 hit ko although it could roar it out.
The things that outspeed Cloyster are fairly limited to Sunny Day Pokes (many of whom are grass type and would struggle against Ice Shard unless they're Tangrowth since it ohkoes all others), Swift Swim (which is rare due to the Swift Swim/Drizzle together ban but still possible), Doryuzu in sand, and Scarf variants of 110+ speed pokes. And Scarf Variants get killed by the +2 Ice Shard (Tornelos, Voltlos, Latios) as well as getting past Mischievious Heart because of the equal priority making it come down to speed (which after Shell Smash Cloyster wins). Actually, because of the lesser appearance of Roopushin, no Breloom in non Dream World (although Ice Shard handles it either way), no Ditto in non Dream world as well as being fairly predictable if Ditto comes, there actually isn't much that can truly stop Cloyster. You'd need a really bulky fast poke (after Shell Smash almost non-existent outside of things like Hp Electric Suicune which hasn't been seen in forever) or a very bulky Mach Puncher and/or to weaken it off from recoil. Actually thinking about it, I'm kind of scared again because the only reason Cloyster fell out of popularity because of the nightmare Drizzle era which Cloyster could do shit against and the Ubers+Inconsistent previously.
Cloyster has quite a number of switchin opportunities now especially with the decline of Roopushin and sharp usage of things like Gliscor...
Focus sash Cloyster is quite frankly terrible. You miss out on the life orb boosting every hit of your 5 hit attacks by 30%. Focus sash Cloyster doesn't have the ability to KO what life orb Cloyster can. Eliminate the mach punch user your opponent is carrying and you're pretty much fine. Also, setting up with Cloyster is pretty easy. I run one with only 40 HP Evs and an adamant nature. Do you know how much it takes from a jolly balloon Dory Earthquake before shell smashing? Around 41-49%. Base 180 defense goes a long way.
Focus sash Cloyster is quite frankly terrible. You miss out on the life orb boosting every hit of your 5 hit attacks by 30%. Focus sash Cloyster doesn't have the ability to KO what life orb Cloyster can. Eliminate the mach punch user your opponent is carrying and you're pretty much fine. Also, setting up with Cloyster is pretty easy. I run one with only 40 HP Evs and an adamant nature. Do you know how much it takes from a jolly balloon Dory Earthquake before shell smashing? Around 41-49%. Base 180 defense goes a long way.
I've faced King's rock Cloyster before. Oh boy, is that thing a pain in the ass. Thankfully, it isn't as strong as LO Cloyster, so it allows me to play around it in an easier fashion.
No don't you dare! xD But actually if anything deserves more discussion in this thread it's Sharpedo, I've been murdering with it, and don't get why no one else is using it.
Why on earth would people run it with Focus Sash? That's just stupid. Base 180 Def and it has so many set up opportunities and is pretty painful to play against once it does get that Shell Smash and since fewer stuff than ever can actually outrun it (and many that do also coincidentally are weak to ice) and the downplay of Roopushin...
No SD and mach punch weak really makes Sharpedo pale in comparison to Blaziken. Not to mention the higher BP of Flareblitz/blaze kick and Hi Jump Kick.
I thought so too, but I made a rain team with one today and it is totally amazing. It's best if you can pass it a SD from Gliscor though, at which point it's usually gg, but it can come in and revenge a lot of stuff, and if they choose to switch out instead of eating a LO Waterfall they just give Sharpedo +2 instead of +1. This thing should definitely be used a lot more.
Sharpedo's main problem imo is the lack of high bp STAB moves/attack boosting moves unlike Blaziken, which prevents it from just powering its way through teams. Its paper-thin defenses don't help it even(not that Blaziken is bulky, but it at least can switch into resisted attacks more than once).
I've never really had problems with Baton Pass Gorebyss, but maybe that's because it's so unrecognized in the current metagame. Passing those boosts to a powerful sweeper like Salamence or Dragonite or Infernape sounds like a daunting prospect though. As for Cloyster, yeah, it hits hard here and there, but it dies. Frecuentemente.
The only thing in themetagame i really have problem is gliscor so far. And partialy doryuzu. Reuniclus has been a joke while work great just like another top tier and Landlos isnt that mighty even with its brutal power.
I think this meta is kind of balanced in some way.
Sometimes I don't even run Pursuit on TTar. Here would be how I'd manage Latios in a lazy way.
All I really need here is Tyranitar (because I mentioned TTar on the first sentence), a bulky Steel (which most teams have anyways. For the sake of this example this Steel is not Nattorei or Jirachi because they pretty much completely wall Latios), and something faster than Latios (I'll use Doryuuzu in this case). Oh and a Water resist of some sort that'd probably die to Latios' other attacks. This seems like a lot but team with Tyranitar very very often have all of these.
Let's suppose I have SR down already. Latios comes in at 87.5%
I send in ttar, he Surfs. Sandstorm rages. Latios is at 81.25%
Latios switches out, TTar does w/e.
Latios comes back in later in the game, for free again (probably me playing badly). Latios is now at 68.75%
Because I decided not to care about predicting Surf, I send in TTar to get 2HKOed (assuming their weather changer is dead/nonexistent. Else I probably would send in my Steel). Latios takes two turns worth of Sand damage and is now at 56.25%. I could probably avoid losing Tyranitar at this point, but as I'm said I'm too lazy to predict.
I can now revenge it with Doryuuzu. This means Latios won't get a chance to sweep as long as Dory is alive.
Should Latios come in for free again, I still have the Steel to take on DMs, who probably could probably take two hits from Latios. I mentioned that this Steel isn't Nattorei or Jirachi. However, the two other common Steels - Skarmory or Scizor, can Roost, so they can avoid being worn down the time Latios comes in again. Or I can predict the Surf and send in a Water resist, just how people would predict between Fire Blast and Draco Meteor from the other Dragons...
Also, if it uses Trick, it becomes significantly less powerful.
And this isn't taking into account any direct damages Latios would likely receive upon switching in. And this is taking into account Latios using Surf every time I send in something that would otherwise be able to absorb a Draco Meteor. I didn't mention Latios dying but let's get real here. During the time its out its teammates are probably suffering and if they keep Latios alive and leave their teammates in the dust then be my guest.
Ok, so, there are some MAJOR flaws with this strategy and I'd like to point them out. Firstly, I carry HP fighting on my Specs Latios, which, if you don't want to predict, cleanly 2HKOs your specially defensive T-tar. Secondly, specially defensive T-tar is set-up fodder for a heck of a lot of pokes (Roob, Natt, Skarm, etc), which makes it a hinderance on every team it's in. Finally, the statement "I still have the Steel to take on DMs, who could probably take two hits from Latios" is incorrect. Only Nattorei, Jirachi, Blissey and Heatran aren't flat-out 2HKOed from specs'd DM, while you'd need severe special defense investment for Scizor and Skarmory to be able to tank the hit with rocks up. If you have 2 of these pokes however, it means your team carries two Latios checks, so it's no wonder you can deal with it without overpredicting.
On a side note, Drought, Drizzle, and Snow Warning teams are hindered by Tyranitar, so you cannot just slap it on every team you create.
As i've stated b4, -2 Latios isn't set-up fodder for anything but CM Rank. Specs DM still easily does over 50% to any sweeper (including Ulgamoth), to the point where they are revenged by any priority. The thing is extremely powerful, fast enough even in this new meta, and has multiple switch-in opportunities due to its resistances.
I no longer want Latios to be banned however, not now that I use it and OHKO stuff like specially defensive Hippodown without prior damage :) It could harm my winning record /sarcasm
Anyways, i don't carry Tyranitar, so i guess my team is "Rankurusu weak", yet i still seem to deal with it just fine. You only need two physical attackers that do over 60% to it or Spiritomb and you've got it checked. It faces the same issues other bulky boosters do, its low speed. The TR set is extremely uncommon, and hella easy to predict through team preview.
Landlos seems pretty powerful as long as i don't have the weather advantage, however against Drizzle teams it's hardly an issue, what with Ice- and Water- type attacks all over the place and without its Sand force. Even SS teams can run Bronzong, who checks not only Landlos, but also Dorry and SD Gliscor and is very useful in the current meta.
With Drizzle teams less common however, Blaziken simply dominates. He breaks stall on his own with the SD set, while offensive teams cannot revenge him. Finding a turn to set up is easy too, seeing as Nattorei is everywhere. No priority hits him hard enough, he takes 40% from Roob Mach punch. Only residual damage can take care of him.
HP Fighting Latios? What are you using that over? Psycho Shock / Trick? Now you're walled by Blissey. Latios has to sacrifice that moveslot. Excadrill can run HP Ice to 2HKO Gliscor for the lulz; that doesn't mean that Gliscor isn't a reasonable counter.
This generation is very different from last generation, and it shows with Tyranitar and Scizor running rather different sets despite not changing much. SpD Tyranitar is good now; I run a somewhat SpD spread and I don't see it as a hindrance to the team at all. Hell, I like that it can clutch SR after surviving random super effective moves.
As for the Steel comment, there's no point in arguing against the intentionally vague point that Jibaku made. Maybe he pivot switches his Steel-type or invests heavily in special bulk. We can't know any of this right now, and all you're doing here basically is accusing Jibaku of lying about his experiences.
EDIT: MY GOD PK GAMING (and other people talking about it). Do you want Gorebyss to overrun the ladder?
No taunt hurts it though, it's vulnerable to phazing.
But with most phazers being physical and having +2 sp atk... even huntail might not have problems. Who is outclassed by Gorebyss by a mere 20 sp atk points (although his 20 atk points could help in some situations I suppose), so if Gorebyss ends up broken, he'll be banned too. But once again, no taunt...
