I largely agree with what Aeroblactyl has pointed out here. While I find myself able to get off Brick Break or some decent damage via U Turn against Tyranitar occasionally, U Turn is what you will use most of the time until your opponents team is vulnerable. Otherwise you endanger yourself by allowing your opponent bring in something that can sweep Victini then another Pokemon due to the speed drop if you use V Create. The issue is that while it hits hard, the V Create is a one time use because of the reduced stats. I've only used a Choice Band variant thus far, but it feels very similar to Latios in that regard. It is much better a punching holes in the opponents team than it is successfully sweeping. In the sun, I'd much rather have Sawsbuck or Venusaur attempting a sweep AFTER Victini has come in and hit something.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Yes, but again, unlike other pokemon you'd want to counter, forcing it out is normally a positive for you instead of a negative or neutral. With Magic Guard, Reuniclus can easily retreat and come back in again at will, as opposed to Lucario and Garchomp, who lose health from entry hazards and fear status afflictions.
The pursuit situation should be narrowed to just Ttar and Scizor, as we stated before. They are admittedlly good checks, but every team should not be forced to use either TTar or scizor to keep themselves from using an overcentralized counter like Specially Defensive drapion etc. And, as stated before, they can be very easily beaten to begin with.
haunter
Banned deucer.
This is really relevant only for teams that make massive use of entry hazards. Magic guard is a great trait and Reuniclus makes great use of it, but really, dealing with it is just a matter of team building. Also, Reuniclus fears sleep and paralysis like everything else, though admittedly immunity to toxic and burn is useful.
You don't need to use Sizor\TTar to deal with Reuniclus. Many people just use things like Jirachi or specs draco meteors from the Lati twins to check it. Other strategies such as encore or perish song work as well.
If TTar and Scizor were that easy to beat then they would not be top tier Pokemon like they are.
Anyway, I'm done arguing about this. I'll just reiterate that if you think that something is broken you have to provide better arguments than "centralization" or "prediction" as they mean absolutely nothing.
Tyranitar and Scizor are just talking advantage of the situtation, you not forced you use anything, and besides there OU staples anyway. I have used Latios in he past, and I can tell you first hand that there are many more ways of killing the sucker then those 2. Sure its a good idea to keep around a counter for it, but can't that be said with any pokemon?
I remember when Gen V was first introduced on PO and there was a thread on Smogon titled something like "Most annoying generation V threats" or something like that. First thing I mentioned was Reuinclus due to its ability to survive hits, deal with hazards and just hit you hard in return.
That said, I never once thought it was broken despite how irritating it was to fight for me. And I had problems with it mainly because I was still adapting to the new generation shift, and I was using slower, weaker, more tankish Pokemon because of what I was used to in Gen IV.
Now I have very little problems dealing with Reuiniclus. I recognize I need to handle it carefully, but it is never my top priority when I see it on Team Preview.
That said, I never once thought it was broken despite how irritating it was to fight for me. And I had problems with it mainly because I was still adapting to the new generation shift, and I was using slower, weaker, more tankish Pokemon because of what I was used to in Gen IV.
Now I have very little problems dealing with Reuiniclus. I recognize I need to handle it carefully, but it is never my top priority when I see it on Team Preview.
Forcing Reuniclus out is always a positive - the pokemon that switches in is forced to take hazard damage, and unless you can perfectly predict a non-attacking move, Reuniclus will be switching into an attack again in the future. Not only that, but you forced Reuniclus out. The momentum is in your favor, period.
I can say with certainty that I have not used Tyranitar or Scizor on ANY of my teams as of yet, and Reuniclus has not been a problem simply because of the power most sweepers are packing. If I see Reuniclus with team preview, I'm not going to waste my time spiking with Ferrothorn and giving it a free switch - I'll Power Whip and go to a powerful hitter capable of 2HKOing it. And let's not pretend it will have time to Recover off of that base 30 speed.
I'm really not sure why you keep bringing up SpD Drapion, no one has suggested that as far as I know. Reuniclus has been receiving less and less of the vote as the rounds go by, indicating that most people have finally begun to adapt to it. How? Just by using what is naturally common - Tar, Jirachi, Scizor, faster sweepers, etc. If it really were as broken as you are trying to imply, MANY more people would know it. Just look at Blaziken - it became immediately clear of how strong it was, garnering 75% of the vote (admittedly Drought has much to do with this).
Not taking damage from entry hazards is simply one of the advantages to using Reuniclus over another pokemon. You cite that Lucario and Garchomp take damage, but I can just as quickly turn around and say that Garhcomp and Reuniclus lack priority, or note that Garchomp is much more difficult to revenge kill than Lucario or Reuniclus.
Finally, you keep bringing up "limited checks" as a reason to have Reuniclus banned. Have you not looked at the other pokemon to whom this applies as well? Name something relevant in OU that can reliably check Terrakion. Gliscor? Lol jk SD Stone Edge just crushed you. Scarfchomp tried to come into SD? The joke is on you - I RP instead. How about Latios, a common special attacker? Blissey? Psycho Shock / Trick. Ferrothorn? Haha I had an Expert Belt and now you get KOd by HP Fire. LO Hydreigon? Just try to find something that can switch into that reliably.
Anyway, I'm still looking closely at Drizzle and Drought. We've already banned Manaphy and Swift Swim for Drizzle, and it continues to dominate as the most potent weather, while Drought has provided enough of a boost to ban Blaziken (who I believe to be manageable otherwise), elevate V-Create Victini to a top wallbreaker (which is impressive given its mere base 100 attack stat), and makes Volcarona all the more difficult to deal with. I'll probably be looking at NP Thundurus, Specs Tornadus, LO Starmie, Volcarona, and Venusaur as they are undoubtedly the best abusers of their respective weathers.
Deoxys-S is solidly OU in my opinion. It sets up fast screens, yes, but so can other pokemon. Especially considering that many of the other screen setters will throw them up when they force a switch. It is a good revenge killer, but cannot reliably sweep with those average offenses. And I'll say it again - the death of the lead metagame makes Deo-E a significantly less desirable spiker. I would much rather use Ferrothorn, Skarmory, or Forretress, who can function throughout the match.
I'm still left wondering why we continue to discuss Latios, Excadrill, and Reuniclus.
I'm not done arguing about this. Its imprudent just to dismiss an argument simply because you dont agree with it.
On to your points. Lati twins lose to Reuncules (not CM roar Latias, which is an overcentralized counter to begin with) so im not sure what you meant. If they are Specd, they are univested, which means they are OHKO'd by a Trick Room Shadown Ball. If Reuniclus has a CM up, he can survive a hit, and OHKO back with Shadow Ball. Either way, if he gets scared, a simple no penalty switch out will occur.
Perish song not the best solution, as eveyone knows, and encore users all fear Reuncules' moves to begin with, so maybe the second time they encore his trick room or CM, they eat a Psychic instead.... Either way, if he gets scared, a simple no penalty switch will occur.
Again, it doesnt come down to prediction or centralization as you think im saying. It comes down to MAGIC GUARD. Magic Guard is now on a powerful and terrific pokemon, making it too powerful.
Well for one, all of the above counters dont have Magic Guard. That is the dealbreaker, get it? they all have limited counters, but all are succeptible to penaltys in switching in and out ON TOP OF status conditions. Reuniclus is just as powerful PLUS magic guard.
I'be used Trick Room Reuniculus since forever, and I never remember OHKOing either Latios or Latias with Shadow ball at all. And you run Shadow Ball with Calm Mind, then your either insta losing to any Steel-type and Tyranitar or you get setup on by Fighting-types of all things. And all Encore users are pretty much safe when Encoring Renucilus considering he camnnot OHKO any of them, and sometimes fails to 2HKO. The main thing that makes your arguement rediculous is that you think that this Reuniculus your talking about is running Shadow Ball/Psychic/Focus Blast/Trick Room/Recover/Calm Mind.
Specs Latios can actually survive Quiet LO Shadow Ball factoring in Stealth Rock, and will OHKO you with Draco Meteor. CM Roar Latias wins (and lol overcentralized, she checks tons of things).
But you've missed the point entirely. Sure CM Reuniclus can Shadow Ball. But that just means I'll maul it with Tyranitar, Scizor, or something else that it can't hit because it lacks Focus Blast.
You can't claim that he is simply dismissing an argument because he doesn't like it when you do the same for Perish Song. It is actually a very decent move given its utility against set-up sweepers and those last pokemon.
Encore users do not fear Reuniclus' moves. The most relevant one, Politoed, will outrun you and Encore your Calm Mind or Recover, then put you to sleep and hit you with STAB, Rain-boosted Scald. It is bulky enough to take an unboosted Psychic as well.
But you've missed the point entirely. Sure CM Reuniclus can Shadow Ball. But that just means I'll maul it with Tyranitar, Scizor, or something else that it can't hit because it lacks Focus Blast.
You can't claim that he is simply dismissing an argument because he doesn't like it when you do the same for Perish Song. It is actually a very decent move given its utility against set-up sweepers and those last pokemon.
Encore users do not fear Reuniclus' moves. The most relevant one, Politoed, will outrun you and Encore your Calm Mind or Recover, then put you to sleep and hit you with STAB, Rain-boosted Scald. It is bulky enough to take an unboosted Psychic as well.
Best set ever!
Its not broken, it can be killed, and has a tough time killing other things. Sure its a threat, but in no way uber.
No you missed the point entirely. The thing that sets Reunc apart from other powerful sweepers is his immunity to anything other than a direct attack.
Suppose i get a little conservative and dont think ill OHKO latios with trick room shadowball...ill just switch out. no damage, no penalty, while you have to come back in on SR again in the future.
Magic guard is the reason....
But you can't deny that "other pokemon" do it even close to as well as deo(s). I don't use screeners as much, but I would assume latios would be the next best, due to memento.
But your not really using Deo(s) just because he can spike. your using him because the opponent can't assume he is a spiker. Deo is the fastest taunter in the game, one of the widest move pools, and spiking may not even be his thing. The pokes you named are incredibly predictable. Skarmory and fortress only have 1 set, and I really don't see fortress as a late game poke when its only move is usually Gyro ball.
In short, Choice specs latios is incredibly powerful, and was at one point, demmed uber. Sand is incredibly common and Excadril can sweep entire teams. And reuniclus has the (arguably) best ability in the game with much better stats than its only former user (Cleffable). And has amazing bulk. I am not saying that these are all banworthy (out of the 4, I would only nominate latios), but I am not surprised most of these keep getting brought up.
Also, do keep in mind latios and deo(s) did make a simple majority last round, if I recall correctly.
@tobes: My bad, for some dumb reason, I thought CB scizor OHKOed DD and mixedmence after rocks, but I was a bit off.
And when you switch back in, I'll hit you with an attack and repeat the process. Eventually, you won't be able to switch (last pokemon remaining), and I'll overpower it with strong moves before it has a chance to recover. In this particular example, it doesn't matter if you switch either, since I'll Pursuit you without fear of Focus Blast.
No, they can't do it as well (and by that I mean as quickly). In any case, I don't find the strategy to be too threatening relative to others, and there are quite a few things that can go wrong.
If you are using it in the lead slot, you need to be using it as a Spiker. It is the fastest Taunter, yes, and it is that same niche that makes said Taunt incredibly predictable. I usually lead with my Ferrothorn when I see a Deoxys lead, and just knock it out with Gyro Ball while it gets two hazards. Those two hazards are no more than Ferrothorn or Forretress can expect to get, only they don't die in the process.
If I don't see Deoxys in the lead slot, I'll generally assume it to be an attacker. It has a wide movepool, but relatively predictable moves that are actually viable competetively. You'll see Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Superpower, and a wild card (Psychic or HP Fire, usually). Furthermore, even if the element of surprise does work in its favor...all it gets is a weak hit with an unSTAB attack coming off of base 95 offenses.
That was more of a rhetorical statement. And yes, Specs Latios was deemed Uber...in 4th gen. Very few things changed from round to round with respect to Latios this time around, so I see its increasing percentage as little more than the correct pool of voters getting to nominate it, a loophole in the process (IMO) that allows virtually any pokemon to be nominated if enough people get behind it.
Excadrill can sweep entire teams...so can Lucario, Garchomp, Volcarona, Terrakion, Starmie, Thundurus, Virizion...get my point?
Reuniclus we have been discussing, but it has failed to clear even 30% if memory serves correctly (40%, maybe), and has various checks that make it manageable in terms of the metagame.
Deoxys-s lost some checks with the loss of Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Swift Swimmers, etc, so the increased percentage makes sense. I'm still of the stance that it's OU.
I kind of loled because I have done the exact same thing. And when my opponent does the variation of ..., I respond with "obvious taunt was obvious".
I didn't mean to imply his large offensive movepool. I meant his ability for that, the dual screener, or the set up was what made him good, and probably his best movepool (imo). The fact that he could go set-up or the surprise offensive movepool was just icing.
Except that Excadril can sweep thorugh all of those after +2. (and some without it if he carries the right move. And he outspeeds all of them, even if they are scarfed. I am not saying he is better, but merely to point out why people dislike him.
I also think he is ridiculously powerful, but not broken. What I dislike is that he can single handily reck stall as a strategy (that and I think Magic Guard is almost too powerful.)
Agreed here as well. And I apologize that I did not get you were being rhetorical.
Could the opposite be true as well? I think to assume that at least some of the voters are biased to their own teams when considering bans. For instance, I would not be surprised if some of the voters who voted no ban for drizzle ran drizzle themselves, or sand if they voted no ban for Excadril.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I would think that most of the voters, who obviously played pokemon enough and consistently to get suspect voting rights, would not vote simply to promote one playstyle and discriminate against the others, as playing one playstyle indefinitely for the entire metagame is downright boring. On the other hand, I would think most competitive players would try to promote diversity to make the game of pokemon more interesting and fun to play.
That is why I said, could be. I would never imply the minds of the voters are all biased, I am simply responding to the point of latios being banned because of the correct set of voters, could also be implied that latios has stayed in because of voters who ran latios, or had muiltiple checks to him.
Not a perfect example, but most of the people who are upset about blaze being banned or not broken ran blazeken. I feel it would be a safe assumption that a good portion of the voters ran a blazeken (or had 2 or more checks to it). And lets also be honest here: the rating system for voting is far from perfect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words
That is really up to debate, but I think it is better to debate about why a pokemon is broken, rather than why voters would or would not think it is broken.
That "most of the people who are upset about blaze being banned" evidently didn't vote, as Blaziken was banned with a 70% majority. In the end, the outcome turned out to be the same whether or not people were biased in favor of keeping Blaziken OU or not.
And I doubt that any suspect voter-selection system would ever be perfect.
The cool thing is that Tyranitar risks getting 2HKOed by V-create, so unless you sac a Pokemon so you can bring TTar in (which means Victini can still do ~50% to your Tyranitar on its second V-create before dying), Tyranitar will LOSE to Victini (unless you're running a fast TTar, which I have hardly seen). The typical bulky Tyranitars I've been seeing get outsped even after the -1 drop, lol. On the topic of Pursuit users, Tyranitar is virtually the only thing you have that can even dare to Pursuit Victini, since everything else dies horribly to V-create.
I think that is a little too much. The point was said that latios made a simply majority because the right pool of voters moved in. My biased argument was simply trying to say that it is a two-way street that the right pool of voters have kept latios in OU.
That's fine with me.
And to no surprise. Biased also works both ways, were they could be voters that hated blazeken with such a passion that wanted to see him out of here, regardless of wheter or not they thought him broken.
I do apologize for derailing the thread. Back on topic, I am not sure how I feel about a hot topic from last round: Sand Veil/Snow Cloak. It is clear that the reason the people don't want a blanket ban of the abilities is for sand, it hurts a lot of poke's move pools while hail isn't strong enough to really abuse snowcloak with only two decent users (Frosglass and Mamoswine).
I know the idea for a Sand Veil/ Stream idea is being proposed by a couple others, mainly (for the reason that I'd guess) because a ban on the only user who really abuses it (Garchomp) would be rejected. Thoughts on this?
Actually, Jolly T-Tar is pretty awesome, but, yeah, I agree with you otherwise. Victini is awesome and if you can win the "weather war" it can completely decimate teams. Pursuit is becoming increasingly uncommon in this metagame, with the only users being Tyranitar and Scizor, who both tend to forgo it for stronger alternatives. Victini can almost OHKO Rotom-W with V-Create in the Sun, while only taking about 1/3 damage from Hydro Pump in return. That's pretty insane. I've been fucking around with Victini lately and I must say that it is fucking powerful, however I believe it is not broken for a couple of reasons.
1. Victini sits on the 100 base speed benchmark, which, although isn't slow, isn't really that fast. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that Victini NEEDS to be Adamant. Without an Adamant nature, Victini becomes much less threatening. If it didn't need to run Adamant and could run Jolly instead, Victini would find itself in a pretty cool place, being able to outspeed Sazandora, Haxorus, Darmanitan, Adamant Garchomp, Adamant Randorosu, etc. However, the most importantly, Jolly Excadrill. Unless it has a Choice Scarf (which would be very stupid if you ask me) Victini has trouble outspeeding many pokemon, (even though it can still outrun Rotom-W. To me, this isn't really much of a fault, as I believe Victini has enough bulk to mitigate its lack of speed, however I can see how this can be a problem for some people.
2. V-Create is absurdly powerful, however, its drawbacks are less-than-optimal. Having lowered Defense/Spdef/Speed may seem to be not as bad as lowered attacking stats, but actually, in this case, it is much worse. Having lowered speed turns many to-be 2HKOes on switch-ins into hit-and-runs due to Victini being in danger of being outsped and killed. Furthermore, Victini's Psychic typing leaves it dramatically vulnerable to pursuit after a single V-Create. Although I said this wasn't a problem due to it being uncommon, I do not base my arguments on the state of the metagame due to the fact that it constantly changes. Pursuit usage could skyrocket for all we know, and Victini could become a little more than useless a week from now. Shrang's scenario where he 2HKOes the Tyranitar switch-in is a tad too convenient as well, as it relies on the Tyranitar having a specific EV spread that could easily be altered to neuter Victini. Scizor is much less of a problem due to the fact that it (obviously) is OHKOed by V-Create and Victini resists Bullet Punch.
3. Sun is pretty fucking hard to keep up. With Ninetales being vulnerable to all of the weather starters, one would be hard-pressed to find a place to switch it in without some clever switching. This may not seem to be much of a problem, but in the case of most sun teams, it is due to most sun team staples being weak to Stealth Rock. This ensures that Victini can only see any real play when the opponent's weather starter has been sufficiently whittled down to the point where Victini can kill it. However, this is the point where Victini's coverage comes into play to redeem it. Victini boasts amazing type coverage in Electric/Fighting/Fire, nabbing SE coverage on Politoed and Tyranitar, while pummeling Hippowdon with a neutral V-Create. With sufficient prediction, Victini should be able to eliminate the Weather starters, however a smart player would have different checks to Victini so as not to risk losing their weather slave to it. This is where Victini's Stealth Rock weakness really hurts it. Victini can only switch in a limited amount of times, when it needs to be able to switch in nearly all the time in order to weaken it's counters with a boosted U-turn or any coverage move. This, coupled with Victini's limited (albeit useful) resistances, severely cuts its chances at switching in. Hence, the conclusion: Victini just can't be in play that often. However, Rapid Spin support becomes very effective on Sun teams and Pokemon like Donphan suddenly become effective, having its Water-weakness removed. This allows it to pack enough power to sufficiently threaten spinblockers like Jellicient, however, sometimes this just isn't enough.
Don't get me wrong - Victini is amazing and I love using it. My point is that I believe that Victini has enough faults that prevent it from overpowered, and therefore should not be nominated for Suspect Voting.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
V-create Victini isn't broken, especially if you're using sun to back up your claims. Politoed doesn't like being smacked in the face by a fusion bolt on the way in (why can't we use Fusion Bolt on the server yet?).
I've had my fair share of specially defensive jirachi. You get 2hko'd by modest politoed's choice specs hydro pump. That, and crit hax. It does indeed make a great counter to reuniclus and latios though. And tornadus. Thunderos? Not so much.
I've had my fair share of specially defensive jirachi. You get 2hko'd by modest politoed's choice specs hydro pump. That, and crit hax. It does indeed make a great counter to reuniclus and latios though. And tornadus. Thunderos? Not so much.
I really don't see why Reuniclus needs to go. Strong physical attackers can 2HKO it, and Trick is a major problem. It may not have too many counters, but it's so easy to check with physical attackers it almost doesn't matter. Against a competent team, Reuniclus really shouldn't KO than 1 Pokemon unless its counters are gone. The only team Reuniclus completely slaughters is a full stall team, but if that team loses to just one Pokemon, than frankly it sucks. If a stall team can't deal with Reuniclus, than it can't deal with any boosting sweeper with Rest like Bulk-Up Scrafty.
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