np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[TorchicBlaziken]

Except you won't limit it to just abilities. In fact, these exceptions shouldn't have happened in the first place. Eventually some idiot will come along and propose complex bans on moves and items for the sake of balance like you are right now with abilities. You act as if you can draw a line here but you simply can't, and you're demonstrating this right now perfectly.

And then people will say "hell no, the Speed Boost Blaziken ban was enough, now this is just crazy", in the hypothetical situation where Blaze Blaziken comes back and some idiot comes along.

 

[Virizion]

Sounds good, but first we gotta prevent Shaymin-S from being broken by making it all physical. While we're at it, let us unban Mewtwo by preventing him from being broken by unbanning level 82.



It is my understanding that Deoxys is the one and only exception because of stats. Blaze Blaziken and SB Blaziken have the same stats And are different b/c of a niche/Speed Boost. The different stats of the Deoxys Forms make them essentially different pokemon with a similiar sprite b/c the typing and movepool might be identical, but the STATS determine usefulness of sets. Speed form Deoxys' stats are different from Attack Form's. Only one breaks the meta and b/c of the Stat difference they are essentially different pokemon. Besides, never said I supported not banning all formes of Deoxys but b/c of the different STATS and therefore increased/decreased effectiveness or devastating effect on OU, one is broken, one isn't, and Deoxys's formes are too statistically different. It's why Combusken isn't Uber.

I'm sorry, but people who make those counter-arguments are acting like idiots - You can level-up that Mewtwo outside of battle. You can change that Shaymin's moveset easily. Can you legitimately change Blaze Blaziken's ability? No. Blaze Blaziken is its own Pokémon; while physical Shaymin is nothing but a gimmick that can be changed easily without altering the Pokémon - same for the Mewtwo. Until they have some sort of crippling ability or a crappy "can't-unlearn" move (see: Rotom-S's Air Slash), then there's no reason to stupidly argue about moving them down a tier.

@ Shenlong
Hi Jump Kick used to be 100 BP, IIRC. Jump Kick was only 90.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Except, unlike in that situation, there is a mass of people who want Blaze Blaziken to come back. Even if the SBBlaziken ban happens, nobody wants a moveset/level/item/IV/Nature ban. The farther we go down the slope, the stickier it gets. It's far from slippery.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I actually did read you post, although I missed a few key words that made me thing you where opposed to Philip's desicion.

It doesn't matter if the people make bad desicions, quite frankly bad desicions need to be made sometimes, so people can learn from there mistake. Democracy is a trial and error process, the people may be wrong sometimes, but after they have seen there wrongs they will never make such votes again. For example, Nazi Germany was a democracy, and it made terrible desicions, but becuase of the terrible flaws they made, no one in world history will ever head down that same path again.

 

[Nkululeko]

Except, unlike in that situation, there is a mass of people who want Blaze Blaziken to come back. Even if the SBBlaziken ban happens, nobody wants a moveset/level/item/IV/Nature ban. The farther we go down the slope, the stickier it gets. It's far from slippery.

The stickier comment makes no sense as we can nerf any pokemon into OU/UU, etc by banning good aspects it has. The slope is slippery, it was said during the Aldaron proposal thread and look where we are now.

I'm sorry, but people who make those counter-arguments are acting like idiots - You can level-up that Mewtwo outside of battle. You can change that Shaymin's moveset easily. Can you legitimately change Blaze Blaziken's ability? No. Blaze Blaziken is its own Pokémon; while physical Shaymin is nothing but a gimmick that can be changed easily without altering the Pokémon - same for the Mewtwo. Until they have some sort of crippling ability or a crappy "can't-unlearn" move (see: Rotom-S's Air Slash), then there's no reason to stupidly argue about moving them down a tier.

People use illegitimate pokemon all the time. They call them "legit hacks" b/c the stats are legit but the pokemon isn't. Pokesav/gen are really popular and are used all the time. But to be fair, Mewtwo wouldn't be Uber if it wasn't at level 100. It's only Uber at level 100. It's only Uber with Psychic moves. As you hopefully see, you can't unban pkoemon by suggesting using a worse set to make it fit into different tiers, that's it. And based on the suggestion of Blaze Blaziken getting UU w/this complex ban, the gimmick Shaymin is equally gimmicky.

 

[Virizion]

The stickier comment makes no sense as we can nerf any pokemon into OU/UU, etc by banning good aspects it has. The slope is slippery, it was said during the Aldaron proposal thread and look where we are now.



People use illegitimate pokemon all the time. They call them "legit hacks" b/c the stats are legit but the pokemon isn't. Pokesav/gen are really popular and are used all the time. But to be fair, Mewtwo wouldn't be Uber if it wasn't at level 100. It's only Uber at level 100. It's only Uber with Psychic moves. As you hopefully see, you can't unban pkoemon by suggesting using a worse set to make it fit into different tiers, that's it. And based on the suggestion of Blaze Blaziken getting UU w/this complex ban, the gimmick Shaymin is equally gimmicky.

First bolded part: They're called "legal hacks", as a "legit hack" is an oxymoron.

Second bolded part: Last Gen, Mewtwo's most common set used Ice Beam/Aura Sphere, not Psychic. Not sure if they all use Psybreak now or not.

 

[Ace Emerald]

I'm going to try (and probably fail from what I've seen in this conversation) to take this conversation back a notch. Lets look at it in perspective. Its one pokemon. Its good. Its banned. Is there something so wrong with that? Yes it could be taken down with a complex ban on ability. But why? Why does it matter so much? The threat was removed, and thats the purpose of the ban. Problem solved.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Because Blaziken is the only case in which one if its abilities have made an otherwise-UU Pokémon get sent to Ubers.

Magnet Pull made Magneton OU in ADV, Poison Heal and No Guard made Breloom and Machamp OU in DPPt, Drizzle has made Kyogre a surefire Uber until the end of time.

That is a horrible argument against it, because Starmie and Dragonite aren't broken with their best ability. It's not the same case as with Blaze/SB Blaziken.

Garchomp is broken in DPPt with its best STAB. Besides, I'm sure Dragonite is broken with their best ability. Broken in UU.

It's impossible for a Pokémon with one ability (4th Gen Staraptor) to have an alternate ability. Please make a valid argument.

Also, Intimidate was a bonus, it wasn't what defined Staraptor since hopefully you know that it's a sweeper, not a wall/tank.

Yes, what broke it was Close Combat. So let's ban Staraptor+Close Combat in DPPt UU? CC-less Staraptor plays completely different and has a shitload of counters.

Can you legitimately change Blaze Blaziken's ability? No. Blaze Blaziken is its own Pokémon; while physical Shaymin is nothing but a gimmick that can be changed easily without altering the Pokémon - same for the Mewtwo.

Hi I have this Adamant DD Tyranitar and I want it to become a Careful Pursuit bro. Help me?

Until they have some sort of crippling ability or a crappy "can't-unlearn" move (see: Rotom-S's Air Slash), then there's no reason to stupidly argue about moving them down a tier.

Rotom-S doesn't need to have Air Slash.

Argueing "oh if you where to ban certain abilties on certain pokemon," that might lead to banning moves or items on certain pokemon," is honestly silly. As I noted before, slippery slope arguements are pointless as you can make key seperations in choices to prevent a whole system from falling down. Just becuase your banning abilties, does not mean you can extend that to anything else. You can see this everywhere in the way people make politic desicions in the real world.

You forgot the part where none of this madness would be discussed if it weren't for Aldaron's proposal. If the "Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" is our Constitution of sorts, Aldaron's proposal is our Patriot Act.

You actually made yourself look bad with this post.
It is possible to express a point without cursing at someone or being rude.

Oooo, don't talk to him like that, he is a ~suspect voter~, look, he even has a badge rip-off, oooo

 

[zyrefredric]

The way I understand it, Blaziken was the one that got banned, NOT Speed Boost. Thus, Blaziken can't be used even if it's using Blaze.

This is unlike the ban on Moody, where the ability itself is banned. In this case, any Pokemon having the ability Moody is not allowed to be used. However this doesn't stop anyone from using Sniper Octillery, Ice Body Glalie or Unaware Bibarel. (Correct me if I'm mistaken in this part.)

IF it was Speed Boost that was banned, then any Pokemon having this ability is not allowed to be used in normal play. However, Blaze Blaziken, Tinted Lens Yanmega, Infiltrator Ninjask and Rough Skin Sharpedo can still be used if you want to.

If all my points above are valid, anybody who wants to use Blaze Blaziken in the grounds that it is "not "broken" is effectively claiming that it is Speed Boost that is broken, and that it is the ability that should be banned.

 

[UncleFinger]

The way I understand it, Blaziken was the one that got banned, NOT Speed Boost. Thus, Blaziken can't be used even if it's using Blaze.

This is unlike the ban on Moody, where the ability itself is banned. In this case, any Pokemon having the ability Moody is not allowed to be used. However this doesn't stop anyone from using Sniper Octillery, Ice Body Glalie or Unaware Bibarel. (Correct me if I'm mistaken in this part.)

IF it was Speed Boost that was banned, then any Pokemon having this ability is not allowed to be used in normal play. However, Blaze Blaziken, Tinted Lens Yanmega, Infiltrator Ninjask and Rough Skin Sharpedo can still be used if you want to.

If all my points above are valid, anybody who wants to use Blaze Blaziken in the grounds that it is "not "broken" is effectively claiming that it is Speed Boost that is broken, and that it should be the ability that should be banned.

I think their point is that neither Speed Boost nor Blaziken are broken individually, but together are broken.

 

[zyrefredric]

ahh, I see. If that's the case, I'm not sure anybody would be pleased with another complex ban like that, and I'm not even sure it's allowed. I'd say just deal with it. I'm sure UU could do without Blaze Blaziken, and UU players can easily find suitable replacements for his roles, what with powerhouses now dropping unexpectedly in their tier.

But if people would continue to argue for the sake of arguing, this argument will not end. Besides, I feel that Blaziken's ban will not be revoked, nor revised anytime soon.

 

[SJCrew]

I think their point is that neither Speed Boost nor Blaziken are broken individually, but together are broken.

They're not separate entities. It's like claiming Draco Meteor and Salamence alone are not broken, but together, they limit its potential checks and counters to a ridiculous degree. Speed Boost is a part of Blaziken the same way Draco Meteor is a part of Salamence. Weakening Pokemon to keep them OU is not a fundamentally sound idea.

 

[haunter]

Can we, please, get over the Blaziken argument? Blaziken is not part of the current testing stage so I'd like to read people's thoughts about Pokemon like Latios and Deoxys-S, which were voted Uber after round 3, rather than the usual bitching about Blaziken and Drizzle + SS.

To me, it seems that the current metagame is quite balanced and that there's nothing to remove.

Also, although this should be unnecessary, I exhort everybody to make their points in a civil manner. Flame wars are not going to be tolerated. Thanks.

 

[Virizion]

They're not separate entities. It's like claiming Draco Meteor and Salamence alone are not broken, but together, they limit its potential checks and counters to a ridiculous degree. Speed Boost is a part of Blaziken the same way Draco Meteor is a part of Salamence. Weakening Pokemon to keep them OU is not a fundamentally sound idea.

Comparing an ability to an attack is a stupid idea in this case - a Salamence with Draco Meteor looks exactly the same as it would without it. If you made the example being "Salamence with Intimidate is broken, but it's not broken with Moxie" then it'd be suitable (although wrong, even if it's just an example). You can immediately tell if a Salamence has Moxie or not; but you can't tell if it has DM or not - therefore, attacks shouldn't be used in arguments against abilities.

Also, as I've said before, DM is not a "part of Salamence" as it can easily forget the move without the Mence itself being illegally altered. Speed Boost is indeed a part of Blaziken, but it is not a part of the non-broken Blaze Blaziken, as it can't have both abilities at once.

@ Haunter
Sorry; and this post was late cuz the Wii is dreadfully slow.

 

[verycoolguy]

You can change that Shaymin's moveset easily.

Your point about easily changing a moveset isn't complete. If I wanted to use an egg move, I'd have to breed up a new Pokemon, or if I want Roost on my Skarmory, I'll have to get a new one from a Gen IV and teach it there.

Deoxys-E is really good at getting its way. I always get scared of that thing because I'm always wondering, "does that thing have a 4x Super Effective move?" It's by far the best Dual Screener imo, which covers its 'weak defenses'.

 

[Virizion]

Your point about easily changing a moveset isn't complete. If I wanted to use an egg move, I'd have to breed up a new Pokemon, or if I want Roost on my Skarmory, I'll have to get a new one from a Gen IV and teach it there.

Deoxys-E is really good at getting its way. I always get scared of that thing because I'm always wondering, "does that thing have a 4x Super Effective move?" It's by far the best Dual Screener imo, which covers its 'weak defenses'.

Shaymin doesn't have egg moves.

Also, about Deoxys-S; it's been a tad underwhelming for me (I use T-wave/Taunt/Reflect/Recover), it usually just becomes a wasted slot once their supporters/etc. are gone, and it dies fairly quickly despite Reflect + Recover. Maybe I should run Spikes on it, but from what I've seen after using it, it's not worthy of a ban IMO.

 

[Thorhammer]

I'd like to have physical Shaymin-S unbanned. It has a great Swords Dance set that's horrible in Ubers but could actually have an interesting impact on OU with Shaymin-S's blistering 127 base Speed (and 103 base Attack isn't bad for a Swords Dancer). It would be interesting to see how OU deals with this threat.

I'd also like to have Mewtwo unbanned at a lower level. Mewtwo is one of my favourite Pokémon - hell, I'm sure it's in the top 10 of just about everybody here - so I definitely think that this is a worthy endeavour assuming that we're fine with nerfing species to fit into the metagame.

See what I'm doing here? No, this is not different from banning an ability from a Pokémon; changing even one move from a set can change how it functions completely, so naturally removing the entire special movepool from Shaymin-S will effectively make it a "different Pokémon". And I can argue that lv ?? Mewtwo can be thought of as a pre-evolution (since that kind of thing is irrelevant to competitive battling). A lot of suggestions that we can currently write off as retarded would be easily justifiable if we allowed Pokémon+Ability bans... unless somehow it is a justifiable exception as Aldaron justified the Swift Swim + Drizzle combo ban.

What you've managed to prove is that complex bans based on anything other than abilities are unreasonably complex, and that we should make a policy to never use them. As no complex bans based on abilities are anywhere near as complex, you have not proven why there would be anything wrong with those bans, if they were to be the only bans allowed. As for what basis they would be this exception? In showing problems with other complex bans that are not present in ability complex bans, you have proven why ability complex bans are different from other complex bans and should be treated differently, and therefore why an ability complex ban would not necessarily lead to any of those things.

 

[Yoshiken]

Haunter: Tbf, a lack of discussion implies that people are agreed on it being fine. I think the usage stats pretty clearly broke any arguments regarding those, anyways.
(Also, Blaziken was mentioned in the OP, so technically it's legit for this thread, right? ;o)

I'm sorry, but people who make those counter-arguments are acting like idiots - You can level-up that Mewtwo outside of battle. You can change that Shaymin's moveset easily. Can you legitimately change Blaze Blaziken's ability? No. Blaze Blaziken is its own Pokémon; while physical Shaymin is nothing but a gimmick that can be changed easily without altering the Pokémon - same for the Mewtwo.

Yo, my Ho-oh has 0 in every IV, is it allowed in OU now? :)
As a point, games are being played on POL. Everything can be changed easily, so those grounds for a ban are just bad.

As for Deoxys, yeah, it's really easily shut down by a Taunter or an effective attacker. Most of the time, I just see it as setup-bait.
Latios is a little more difficult, since it's a lot harder to effectively take down, but I'm inclined to say it's not over-centralising and, as such, shouldn't be banned.

 

[haunter]

I'm wondering what kind of taunter (other than prankster Thundurus\Tornadus\Whimsicott) can effectively shut down something with 180 base speed and access to taunt itself. Actually even prankster users must be careful because of magic coat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with Deoxys-S being OU, it's just that your statement made me curious.

Also, about there being no discussion about the current suspects: on one hand probably means that people are fine with them, but on the other hand it's caused by the fact that many users in this thread are still discussing about controversial bans like Blaziken's, "de facto" shadowing and twisting the topic of the thread itself.

 

[SimonSays]

I find that the most Over-bearing threat is Reniculus; it can easily fit on just about any team, without disrupting too much on the team, but forcing needless sacrifice for the 5 turns you outspeed it and are still hit first.
Excadrill is tollerable, due to being reliant on SS, but I think the neccessity to use some form of Weather disrupts other potentially good playstyles.

I don't think that Weather is fully broken; I mainly say that so that I can preserve my SunStall team. =]

Latios is relatively underwhelming without it's SoulDew yet, and Deoxys is just a fun match for my MagicCoat Tentacruel*. =] The main point of hillarity is that they just Taunted/TWaved/Stealth Rocked themselves, and they know it.

*MagicCoat Tentacruel is intellectual property of me. PM for permission, although you will have to beat me at Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

[Yoshiken]

I'm wondering what kind of taunter (other than prankster Thundurus\Tornadus\Whimsicott) can effectively shut down something with 180 base speed and access to taunt itself. Actually even prankster users must be careful because of magic coat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with Deoxys-S being OU, it's just that your statement made me curious.

Hm. Maybe the ones I've run into have just been bad, then. >.>
Either way, seeing one on a team usually just means you lead with a powerful attacker, and since most attackers can deal with it pretty effectively, all it's doing is helping the rest of the team with screens - that, in and of itself, isn't that big a threat. This also isn't over-centralising, since having 'an attacker' is, uhh, pretty obvious.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Magnet Pull made Magneton OU in ADV, Poison Heal and No Guard made Breloom and Machamp OU in DPPt, Drizzle has made Kyogre a surefire Uber until the end of time.

What made Kyogre Uber was its 100 HP, 150 SpA, 140 SpD, and Water Spout. In the end, Drizzle was just a bonus.

The others were not banned; people just started using them because of their abilities, pushing them over the usage threshold. If Magneton was broken in UU because of its ability, then it would be BL in D/P. Breloom and Machamp ARE broken in UU, but it's not because of their ability; even in ADV, where they only had Effect Spore and Guts, they were BL.

 

[alexwolf]

First of all, I used the phrase, "I think", which clearly indicates that it is my opinion, not fact. Secondly, your hostility is completely unnecessitated.

man you just told us some things that you have told us that you didn't want to tell.so if you want to say somethng say it straight.don't say ''i am not going to say this'' and then put it in ( ).

Okay.

First of all, it's not my only reasoning. Read my other posts. It's merely my only non-repetitive argument.

this was your first post in this discussion.if you mean that in an other discussion about blaziken you had presented your arguements then sory but you must present again these arguements instead of quoting other peoples sayings...

Secondly, it's not "the opinion of someone else". It's the rules laid down by our former head-of-policy. Which our new head-of-policy have not changed.

i told you again that rules are there to change eventually!see aldaron's proposal!

Thirdly, that's exactly what you did with Sand Veil. You said "it's uncompetitive" and then you called it a day.

i already responded to this...

I shouldn't even respond to this, because it's basically you just whining about me.

it isn't like this.it was your attitude that is wrong for discussions.and of 'course when i see someone acting all high and mighty instead of presenting arguements then i am going to interefere!
But I actually didn't dismiss their arguments, because I continued to discuss their arguments in my next couple posts.[/QUOTE]i don't care what you did later.i care for what you did in the beginning.you came in the discussion by humiliating their point of discussion and then you said that your only arguement will be the refference that you made.and then in your next post when someone said to you that you did well you said that you were happy and that your purpose has been served!so don't try to convince me that you came for a discussion...

 

[SupremeDirt]

OH MY GOD THE DRAMA.

Blaziken is NOT coming back to OU. It is NOT HAPPENING. Pokémon + Ability bans are expressly DISALLOWED. As are more complex bans. The line was already drawn. Drizzle + Swift Swim is the ONLY COMPLEX BAN. EVER. Get over yourselves. Stop being Blaziken fanboys and bitching about hax from Sand Veil/Snow Cloak when you play a game with a large component of probability management. If you don't like playing a game with a large "luck" component, then go play a fighting game or something, this is NOT THE GAME FOR YOU.

Sandstorm is common because Tyranitar just so happens to be a completely awesome Pokémon, having good stats all around. It's thus commonly used on teams that aren't weather based. It just so happens its ability is Sand Stream. This means NOTHING. The HORROR. Why is rain so common in Ubers? Maybe because Kyogre is debatably the MOST POWERFUL POKÈMON in the GAME. Its ability also happens to be Drizzle. Thus rain is incredibly prevalent in Ubers. Yet non-weather teams function just fine. Maybe I'll go back to Gen IV and bitch about how my hail stall team needs to take out Tyranitar as quickly as possible, that being its highest priority in a match. I won't, because that is FUCKING RETARDED. If you are running a weather team, you are accepting the fact that against another weather team you need to eliminate their weather starter. THAT IS HOW YOUR TEAM WORKS, IT IS YOUR FAULT THAT YOUR TEAM WORKS LIKE THAT.

You are all just looking for things to ban, simply because you don't like stuff. This is stupid. The metagame has a fine balance right now. Ferrothorn doesn't need to go because it's at the top of usage. There will ALWAYS be something at the top of usage, that does not make it broken.

Going to stop before I start rambling too much.

 

[Yoshiken]

You are all just looking for things to ban, simply because you don't like stuff.

Resent this. But yeah, other than being a little more blunt about it, pretty much my thoughts on the matter.