np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Molk]

What about our newly-found Prankster Sableye? It can switch into a predicted Close Combat and greatly nerf Terrakion with priority Will-O-Wisp.

what if terrakion uses stone edge instead? and couldn't terrakion just switch out to avoid the will-o-wisp. sableye is really only a check to terrakion imo.

 

[tomtom5858]

what if terrakion uses stone edge instead? and couldn't terrakion just switch out to avoid the will-o-wisp. sableye is really only a check to terrakion imo.

Given that we've been talking about CB Terakion, why the hell would it stay in on an immunity that could completely cripple it?

 

[Nix_Hex]

He said Stone Edge. And if Terrakion did use Close Combat, Sableye wound still be a check by virtue of its Ghost typing.

 

[Cold Fusion]

On the subject of Terrakion, here is an epic sweep that I obtained a while back.

Hide

Start of turn 22
Fusion Test called Terrakion back!
Fusion Test sent out Ninetales!

The foe's Rotom-W used Volt Switch!
Ninetales lost 118 HP! (33% of its health)
Ninetales fainted!
The foe's Rotom-W is hurt by its Life Orb!
[F.S]Theebay called Rotom-W back!
[F.S]Theebay sent out Tyranitar!

The foe's Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!

The sandstorm rages!
Fusion Test sent out Terrakion!

Start of turn 23
[F.S]Theebay called Tyranitar back!
[F.S]Theebay sent out Gliscor!

Terrakion used Swords Dance!
Terrakion's Attack sharply rose!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

Start of turn 24
Terrakion used Stone Edge!
The foe's Gliscor lost 80% of its health!
The foe's Gliscor fainted!
Terrakion is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sandstorm rages!
[F.S]Theebay sent out Rotom-W!

Start of turn 25
Terrakion used Close Combat!
The foe's Rotom-W lost 72% of its health!
The foe's Rotom-W fainted!
Terrakion's Defense fell!
Terrakion's Sp. Def. fell!
Terrakion is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sandstorm rages!
[F.S]Theebay sent out Tyranitar!

Start of turn 26
Terrakion used Close Combat!
It's super effective!
The foe's Tyranitar lost 58% of its health!
The foe's Tyranitar fainted!
Terrakion's Defense fell!
Terrakion's Sp. Def. fell!
Terrakion is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sandstorm rages!
[F.S]Theebay sent out Jirachi!

Start of turn 27
Terrakion used Close Combat!
The foe's Jirachi lost 35% of its health!
The foe's Jirachi fainted!
Terrakion's Defense fell!
Terrakion's Sp. Def. fell!
Terrakion is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sandstorm rages!
[F.S]Theebay sent out Terrakion!

[F.S]Theebay: whos faster? D:

Start of turn 28
The foe's Terrakion used Quick Attack!
It's not very effective...
Terrakion lost 97 HP! (29% of its health)

Terrakion used Close Combat!
It's super effective!
[F.S]Theebay: hahahahaha
Fusion Test: wow
[F.S]Theebay: wow
The foe's Terrakion lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Terrakion fainted!
Terrakion's Defense fell!
Terrakion's Sp. Def. fell!
Terrakion is hurt by its Life Orb!

Fusion Test won the battle!
[F.S]Theebay: Good Game :/

What is the moral of the story? Not even the great physical wall known as Gliscor can stop Terrakion at +2.

 

[SlimMan]

Going back to the Metagross thing, nkululeko, Metagross tanks a Gliscor EQ easily, meaning the 2HKO is not a problem. And did you honestly think I was talking about Hone Claws on the CB set? lol
You say Conk is better than Gross as a bulky attacker but zero explanation why. Wanna try again?


Ok, now onto a currently-relevant topic. Slowbro works excellently as a CB Terrakion check, as it cannot get 2HKOed from even X-Scissor, with Lefties. However, a layer of Spikes or SR and Slowbro suddenly faces a 2HKO from Stone Edge or X-Scissor, meaning that spin support would be needed to truly "counter" it.
Cresselia also avoids a 2HKO from X-Scissor, even with SR on the field, with Leftovers. It's a pretty solid way to go.

But neither of those two Pokemon can OHKO Terrakion, meaning that even if they switch in, take another hit and attack back, Terrakion is still free to hit them a third time for the KO. I honestly don't think you can straight-up counter CB Terrakion. Just check it (or play way better than your opponent).

edit: Max/Max Bold Sableye gets 2HKOed by a Stone Edge followed by a burned Stone Edge. Even if the Will-o-Wisp hits you still lose your Sableye.

 

[alexwolf]

SlimMan Slowbro is almost a flawless CB Terakion counter because even if it can 2hko you with SE or X-Scissor you can just switch out to a rock resist having lost only 1/3 of your health thx to Regenerator.

 

[Cold Fusion]

SlimMan Slowbro is almost a flawless CB Terakion counter because even if it can 2hko you with SE or X-Scissor you can just switch out to a rock resist having lost only 1/3 of your health thx to Regenerator.

Uh... He doesn't qualify as a counter if he is being forced out.

 

[yee]

Uhhh a healthy Slowbro fucks up Terrakion's day. Jolly CB doesn't even 2HKO with X-Scissor so just imagine how many times Slowbro can swap in and out of there. If Slowbro makes a smart switch for some health every now and then you're getting nowhere without running SR and another hazard, or battering it with another attacker.

 

[SlimMan]

Uhhh a healthy Slowbro fucks up Terrakion's day. Jolly CB doesn't even 2HKO with X-Scissor so just imagine how many times Slowbro can swap in and out of there. If Slowbro makes a smart switch for some health every now and then you're getting nowhere without running SR and another hazard, or battering it with another attacker.

Jolly can't 2HKO (factoring in Lefties) but it can 2HKO with Stealth Rock or 1 layer of Spikes. As Cold Fusion said, Terrakion can force Slowbro out, which is not exactly Terrakion's day being ruined.

SlimMan Slowbro is almost a flawless CB Terakion counter because even if it can 2hko you with SE or X-Scissor you can just switch out to a rock resist having lost only 1/3 of your health thx to Regenerator.

If it can 2HKO then Slowbro is not a counter, because it can't always switch into it. It's a check.
It's sorta like how Hitmontop couldn't switch into Excadrill but it could manhandle the mole once it got in. A check.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Well, it's slightly different, as slowbro can safely switch into all variants of Terrakion, as even if it is CB and slowbro faces a 2hko it can switch out to the appropriate resist and regain most of the damage via regenerator; if it switches into SD / RP / LO / CS it can handle all of those easily.

It's neither a full counter or only a check but somewhere in between the two, but leans more towards the side of a full counter.

 

[November Blue]

Now that Excadrill is banned, I assume that Gliscor usage will decrease somewhat, and other physical walls will become popular. Slowbro, for example, is amazing. He's definitely OU material, and will hopefully get a chance to shine.

Great set of resistances, never stops recovering HP, and hits quite hard as well. He works quite well with Ferrothorn, Celebi, Tangrowth ect.

 

[SlimMan]

Well, it's slightly different, as slowbro can safely switch into all variants of Terrakion, as even if it is CB and slowbro faces a 2hko it can switch out to the appropriate resist and regain most of the damage via regenerator; if it switches into SD / RP / LO / CS it can handle all of those easily.

It's neither a full counter or only a check but somewhere in between the two, but leans more towards the side of a full counter.

Yeah, I'll admit my Hitmontop analogy had its flaws, as Slowbro actually can switch into Terrakion. It's just that it might be forced right back out. You pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Technically, since Slowbro can't OHKO Terrakion, it has trouble with SD Terra as well, because that could take a hit and 2HKO the Bro. But then Terra runs the risk of getting burned, failing to 2HKO, and watching Slowbro heal back up to full health. Meh, I'd say that either one of these could beat the other.

 

[SJCrew]

I think Gliscor is working well enough for everyone right now. You're not going to lose if you have a Protect variant, unless you get some joker running HP Ice. Scizor being everywhere keeps him in line too. You could also use Golurk if you really wanted. He wasn't that bad last time I tried him out.

It's tough to argue against him being top dog in this meta though. I think he's right where he needs to be in terms of a manageable top-level threat.

 

[Rurushu]

Slowbro can (and probably should) run Thunder Wave since it's a guaranteed stop against terrakion and also cripples common foes like Lati@s, Rotom W and Volcarona.

 

[November Blue]

Thunder Wave Slowbro is good, yes. He kinda suffer from four moveslot syndrome though. You run Slack Off and any three of Scald, Psychic, Fire Blast, Thunder Wave and Yawn.

Yawn is really a secondary option, but Slack Off and Scald are mandatory. Psychic, Fire Blast and Thunder Wave check different things, depending on what you need. This is what makes Slowbro great, really. It doesn't just sit there and take hits, it threatens stuff. Base 100 Special Attack is decent, useful double STAB is useful, and stuff like Disable, Trick and Calm Mind can give the opponent an unexpected headache. Throw Calm Mind on your Slowbro, and you have a physical wall + mini Reuniclus!

Psychic is used for Conkeldurr, who you don't want to Scald, and Toxicroak.

 

[sirndpt]

Slowbro is pretty badly owned by both halves of the Rotom-W / Scizor combo though - I personally haven't had much success with him since.. Blaziken left.

 

[alphatron]

Regen slowbro can't learn trick, but if you're talking about own tempo, then that's fine.

Despite my past bashing, I decided to try sun team cress again. Hp fire ohkos scizor and is almost mandatory, while cress serves as a shut down to landorus, terrakion, and dragons that aren't named hydriegon. Paired with CB Snorlax, who laughs at volcorona and heatran, all of drought's common weaknesses are pretty much covered. And with twave or dual screens, cress can actually be a nuisance. The grand downside to using cress is that its tyranitar food. So just carry an infernape (whom so many teams are weak to these days), scrafty, or other t-tar check/counter. Cress may seem like spike stacking fodder, but that's what hp fire is for. If you don't want to run psychic, then find a moveslot for something like magic coat instead.

 

[alexwolf]

Jolly can't 2HKO (factoring in Lefties) but it can 2HKO with Stealth Rock or 1 layer of Spikes. As Cold Fusion said, Terrakion can force Slowbro out, which is not exactly Terrakion's day being ruined.



If it can 2HKO then Slowbro is not a counter, because it can't always switch into it. It's a check.
It's sorta like how Hitmontop couldn't switch into Excadrill but it could manhandle the mole once it got in. A check.

Come on dude let technicalities alone you get what i mean.
Let me rephrase it like this:
If you have Slowbro and a solid rock resist you counter CB Terakion.Better now?

 

[SlimMan]

Thunder Wave Slowbro is good, yes. He kinda suffer from four moveslot syndrome though. You run Slack Off and any three of Scald, Psychic, Fire Blast, Thunder Wave and Yawn.

And even then there are some other options, namely Toxic and Ice Beam.
I don't think they're as good on Bro as most of the moves you mentioned, but Ice Beam can make it a pretty awesome DDNite/Mence check, and it also allows it to OHKO Landorus (I think). Toxic can be about as good on Bro as on any wall, it's just that it faces a lot more competition for a slot than on other walls.

Come on dude let technicalities alone you get what i mean.
Let me rephrase it like this:
If you have Slowbro and a solid rock resist you counter CB Terakion.Better now?

Yeah, I wasn't trying to be all technical, but I can see how it came off like that I guess. Ok.



edit: SJCrew mentioned Golurk (who isn't necessarily bad, but he isn't exactly top-tier), so I'm gonna delve into some less usable Pokemon. Nidoqueen works pretty well, because very few CB Terrakion in my experience run EQ, and that's the only way Terra has a chance. Claydol is similar, but I think it's less bulky and it also gets 2HKOed by X-Scissor. Nidoking I guess could work but he's so much better off abusing Sheer Force that we might as well discount him.
Out of those three, Claydol is vulnerabl to X-Scissor and Nidoking doesn't run bulk, so that really just leaves Nidoqueen. But Sheer Force STAB Earth Power is nice to hurt Terra.

 

[alexwolf]

Golurk,Nidoqueen and Claydol are all very good checks but are all 2hkoed with good prediction and noone of them has reliable recovery.

A good CB Tera counter which i think hasn't been mentioned is max def/max hp Tangrowth.
It can tank even 2 X-Scissors and ko back with either Giga Drain or Power Whip if Sandstorm is up.
Here is the calc for X-Scissor against Tangrowth:

535 Atk vs 383 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 160 - 190 (39.60% - 47.03%)

Without sandstorm,and with SR + Lefties factored in it only has a 0.07% chance of being ohkoed,which equals to 0 practically.

With sandstorm,and with SR + Lefties factored in it has a 35.77% chance of being 2hkoed which less than half of the time.

EDIT:Forgot that he can be 2hkoed by CC since it deals more damage than a super effective X-Scissor.Still a very good and sturdy check.

 

[New World Order]

Even though the likes of Golurk and Claydol are solid counters to Terrakion. You have to stop and consider: are these pokes viable for anything else? Slowbro, Mew, and Tangrowth can all fulfill purposes other than taking on Terrakion. Slowbro can check a good chunk of fighting types and DD dragons. Mew can act as a great stallbreaker or baton passer. Tangrowth can act as a great sun sweeper or rain check. Golurk on the other hand, can't really do anything else. Claydol is even more pathetic. The only rapid spinner it is more reliable than is Donphan, and becasue of power creep, it gets beated down by just about everything, while its pathetic offenses mean you'll be doing nothing in return.

Before discussing the likes of Golurk or Claydol as CB Terrakion counters, you have to consider: would anyone actually put this thing on their team? This applies for everything. Lanturn is technically a rock solid Thundurus counter, but does it have any niches outside of that? There's no point in blindly slapping a poke onto a team when there's something else that can accomplish the same tasks and more. Once No Guard Golurk gets released, we can discuss its merits as a Terrakion counter since its now a legitimate OU viable poke. Claydol? Not so much. Atm, the only things it can do are check Terrakion and Landorus, while Gliscor can do that and more.

 

[THATSAplusONE]

Thunder Wave Slowbro is good, yes. He kinda suffer from four moveslot syndrome though. You run Slack Off and any three of Scald, Psychic, Fire Blast, Thunder Wave and Yawn.

Lol. I got owned today by a Slowbro with Amnesia. It tore me up. Amnesia's another move to add to that list of moves he can run effectively.

 

[Chris P. Bacon]

Before discussing the likes of Golurk or Claydol as CB Terrakion counters, you have to consider: would anyone actually put this thing on their team? This applies for everything. Lanturn is technically a rock solid Thundurus counter, but does it have any niches outside of that? There's no point in blindly slapping a poke onto a team when there's something else that can accomplish the same tasks and more. Once No Guard Golurk gets released, we can discuss its merits as a Terrakion counter since its now a legitimate OU viable poke. Claydol? Not so much. Atm, the only things it can do are check Terrakion and Landorus, while Gliscor can do that and more.

What's wrong with Iron Fist Golurk. Focus Punch gets a nice boost, not to mention so will Hammer Arm making it stronger than Dynamo-Punch. He also gets STAB EQ. I guess it would help with Stone Edge, but what are you trying to hit in OU that Ghost / Ground / Fighting didn't cover (Dragonite?) I'm sorry if this post sounded rude, it wasn't my intention to insult anyone, I just don't think No Guard will make Golurk any better.

Edit: While I'm here anyone know any good Gliscor lures? I think Lucario has the potential to rape standard teams (no more Mole) once Gliscor is out the way. Tyranitar doesn't work very well these days, maybe Expert Belt Jirachi?

 

[lordkira]

is it just me or are there more stall teams now?
i was expecting to see A LOT of HO teams but I still don't see too many of them. The only differences from prior to the latest ban is the increase in number of stall-based teams and scarfers.

 

[lmitchell0012]

i think you're the only person who uses specs / cm deoxys-e. people are telling you counters to standard sets because they're much more likely to be used than what you may use...

So we only counter "standard" sets now?? Just because he isn't using a set doesn't mean he can't use it.