np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[ssbbm]

38.9% - 46%
is what LO Adamant EQ does to Suicune.

 

[badabing]

Dnite definitely has a niche in the rain but I don't think there is an efficient spread that can 2HKO spdefensive rachi with aqua tail, reliably outspeed the jolly tar benchmark + creeps, and buff up his mediocre spatk to usable levels. Feel free to prove me wrong, I think the set sounds really cool.

 

[RhyssaFireheart]

This thread is viewed way too much XD anyway you got your calcs wrong dude
it does 97.8-99.1 damage including STAB.

 

[NoUserName]

252 HP/252 Def Salamence can counter Excadrill fine.

 

[Eggbert]

Dnite definitely has a niche in the rain but I don't think there is an efficient spread that can 2HKO spdefensive rachi with aqua tail, reliably outspeed the jolly tar benchmark + creeps, and buff up his mediocre spatk to usable levels. Feel free to prove me wrong, I think the set sounds really cool.

252 Atk neutral nature with LO will do around 50% to jirachi in the rain. There isn't really a point of beating the 244 creeps, just use dragonite's bulk and extremespeed to tank hits from them and KO them back. 100 spA might seem mediocre, but with LO, quiet, and 120 base power moves it hits everything incredibly hard. Nite doens't need speed, it uses bulk / multiscale against offense and agaisnt stall you are faster than everything anyway.

 

[RhyssaFireheart]

252 HP/252 Def Salamence can counter Excadrill fine.

You are right but it can't handle a LO +2 Adamant Earthquake I doubt that.

 

[pokekazzam]

You are right but it can't handle a LO +2 Adamant Earthquake I doubt that.

Yeah but team preview ruins excadrill just keep any one of your bulky pokes till the end and finish it when it comes in

 

[New World Order]

SP.Def Jirachi is his only counter i think.And he doesn't need much speed because he has Extremespeed.
Almost zero pokes can take a first hit on the switch followed up by an ES. If you run Leftovers, then tons and tons of pokemon will be able to survive the first hit+extremespeed. 367 attack with an 80 base power move that can never be super effective, plus no boosting item, really isn't that powerful at all. Even if you're hitting something with like 150 defense, it'll take a little over 100 damage. And even most sweepers in OU have ~200 defense. If you run Life Orb, then you've gimped MultiScale, which is pretty much the only reason to use it over salamence.

About the part for which common pokes outspeed Salamence you forgot Landorus,Terakion,Gengar,Starmie and maybe more...
There are also MANY MANY more pokemon that outspeed Dragonite. Since you can't run any speed on Rain Abuser MixNite. Its going to be outsped by pretty much anything that runs any speed at all. Dragonite wishes it had the choice of outspeeding Hydreigon, Lucario and the like.

Also stop exaggerating,a 10 stat difference in S.Atk is not far higher. If the attack is Draco Meteor, and both are carrying Life Orbs, then it actually makes a huge difference.
Dragonite in rain can easily 2hko almost all of ou, this is only with a Life Orb, and that takes away the only reason to use Dragonite over Salamence. As well, Dragonite can't run any speed and will lose Multi Scale after just one move. Meaning its gonna get outsped and Ice Beamed or something. except Jirachi i think,and can do it much more reliably than Salamence,which his stronger move is a move that gets weaker and weaker with every use. Salamence has Hydro Pump, in the rain, thats hits even harder than Hurricane due to Salamence's superior offensive stats in every category. As well, you can argue accuracy, but water is a much much better offensive type than flying will ever be.
Also don't forget that Dragonite has priority which is invaluable. once again, not much power behind that priority. Even with a life orb, you're not going to be getting any 2HKOs unless what your hitting is Meinshao or something.
Both are very good but to call Salamence a better wallbreaker is an understatement of Dragonite and not true in the slightest... Its completely true, I think everyone here has proven this already.

Finally about your sayings on Gliscor i have to say this.
Excacrill or not Poison Heal Gliscor is and will be the better Gliscor out there for multiple reasons. I agree with you for once O.o Poison heal Gliscor is pseudo immune to status, and can run an absolutely deadly Subtect staller. The only move you miss out is Roost, which you'll probably get back in 5th gen move tutor or something. Because you cannot understand these reasons doesn't mean that your arguments are justified.Well we got a little hypocrite here don't we

I've done this before on the Dragonite thread, can't believe I have to do it here as well.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I don't get what you guys are talking about, escadrill is not over powered in the slightest all you need is a bulky water to counter it and hit it with super effective damage, I can say that I have never been swept by an excadrill

Hide

Bulky waters with standard speads:

Jellicent 248 / 216 Bold vs Excadrill +2 earthquake:

-Life Orb / Jolly: 1HKO
-Air Balloon / Adamant: 85.11% - 100.5%

Gyarados 248 / 252 Impish vs. Excadrill + 1 rock slide:

-Life Orb / Jolly: 70.23% - 82.44%
-Air Balloon / Adamant: 59.03% - 69.72%

Rotom - W 122 Modest vs. Excadrill + 2 Return:

-Life Orb / Jolly: 83.64% - 98.51%
-Air Balloon / Adamant: 70.26% - 82.9%

Politoed 252 / 252 Bold vs. Excadrill +2 Earthquake

-Life Orb / Jolly: 98.7% - 115.89%
-Air Balloon / Jolly: 83.07% - 97.92%

Swampert 240 / 216 Relaxed vs. Excadrill +2 Earthquake

-Life Orb / Jolly: 86.78% - 102%
-Air Balloon / Adamant: 73.32% - 86.28%

Vaporeon 248 / 252 Bold vs. Excadrill +2 Earthquake

-Life Orb / Jolly: 92.87% - 109.5%
-Air Balloon / Adamant: 78.4% - 92.22%

Interesting, when I started this I thought none of these could hold there own, but they can. Although there biggest problem is residual damage, quite a few of these bite the dust after a layer of rocks or spikes. Also damage from unboosted excadrill still does quite a bit, about a 1/3 from most of these. So on round 2 vs. excadrill, most will be fodder. Finally there is nothing to stop Excadrill from using adamant + life orb, which almost everything here gets destroyed by.

 

[ssbbm]

You are right but it can't handle a LO +2 Adamant Earthquake I doubt that.

salamence is flying...

 

[RhyssaFireheart]

Yeah but team preview ruins excadrill just keep any one of your bulky pokes till the end and finish it when it comes in

People underestimate it way too much man it will destroy your bulky sweepers except from Cresselia but LO Adamant Excadrill can 2HKO a Specially defensive Cresselia.

 

[Razza]

You are right but it can't handle a LO +2 Adamant Earthquake I doubt that.

salamence can take +2 adamant lo earthquakes all day, i mean it barely even 3hko's...

physically defensive quagsire is a good check/counter to excadrill, barring a crit, it also checks a lot of set up sweepers such as dd scrafty and conkeldurr and depending on the item terrakion too

 

[RhyssaFireheart]

salamence can take +2 adamant lo earthquakes all day, i mean it barely even 3hko's...

physically defensive quagsire is a good check/counter to excadrill, barring a crit, it also checks a lot of set up sweepers such as dd scrafty and conkeldurr and depending on the item terrakion too

Hahah lol sorry I thought he said Sandslash well Rockslide OHKO salamence.
Lol

 

[tomtom5858]

salamence is flying...

Damn right, Salamence tanks those +1 (Intimidate) LO Earthquakes like dry waz nuttin.

 

[NoUserName]

Cresselia cannot do nothing to Excadrill back, bar, HP Fire?

While Cresselia Reflects, Excadrill SD

 

[RhyssaFireheart]

Cresselia cannot do nothing to Excadrill back, bar, HP Fire?

While Cresselia Reflects, Excadrill SD

Yeah that ruins Excadrill but never seen HP fire on cress

 

[alexwolf]

My words are in normal letters and yours in bold:

SP.Def Jirachi is his only counter i think.And he doesn't need much speed because he has Extremespeed.
Almost zero pokes can take a first hit on the switch followed up by an ES. If you run Leftovers, then tons and tons of pokemon will be able to survive the first hit+extremespeed. 367 attack with an 80 base power move that can never be super effective, plus no boosting item, really isn't that powerful at all. Even if you're hitting something with like 150 defense, it'll take a little over 100 damage. And even most sweepers in OU have ~200 defense. If you run Life Orb, then you've gimped MultiScale, which is pretty much the only reason to use it over salamence.
Who was talking about leftovers?When did i ever talked about leftovers?
You keep talking generally about how mediocre his priority is and other theorymon crap while you still haven't answered my main question.How many pokes in ou can avoid being 2hkoed by mixnite?
Untill you answer this question i am not going to bother anymore with your random theorymon...

About the part for which common pokes outspeed Salamence you forgot Landorus,Terakion,Gengar,Starmie and maybe more...
There are also MANY MANY more pokemon that outspeed Dragonite. Since you can't run any speed on Rain Abuser MixNite. Its going to be outsped by pretty much anything that runs any speed at all. Dragonite wishes it had the choice of outspeeding Hydreigon, Lucario and the like.Excuse me but YOU said that Salamence's speed is very good because it lets him outspeed the most commom attacking threats.And i just mentioned all the pokes that you forgot to put in the list.
I never supported that dragonite's speed is good so i have no need to show you what it outspeeds and what it doesn't.
You started the argument about salamence being fast yet you failed to support it not me.I NEVER said that Dragonite's speed is nice while you clearly said so about salamence.The burden of proof lies to you my friend!You must prove how Salamence is fast enough not me.

Also stop exaggerating,a 10 stat difference in S.Atk is not far higher. If the attack is Draco Meteor, and both are carrying Life Orbs, then it actually makes a huge difference.
Can you pls stop for a second theorymoning everything and show me some examples where Dragonite wishes it had the bigger S.Atk and Draco Meteor?
If you can show me then alright,or else stop arguing with worthless theorymon.


Dragonite in rain can easily 2hko almost all of ou, this is only with a Life Orb, and that takes away the only reason to use Dragonite over Salamence. As well, Dragonite can't run any speed and will lose Multi Scale after just one move. Meaning its gonna get outsped and Ice Beamed or something.
Because you seem to like very much the random talk without any solid proofs i will make a statement that i made again in the dragonite thread:
Mixnite can 2HKO ALMOST THE WHOLE OU TIER in rain!Try and prove me wrong if you can instead of talking generally.You know with situations that happen in real battles.
Also you keep telling that Dnites only pro to Salamence is MS and youare so wrong that my eyes hurt.
His pros as a wallbreaker over Salamence are:MS,higher bulk,Priority,Hurricane,Thunder.

except Jirachi i think,and can do it much more reliably than Salamence,which his stronger move is a move that gets weaker and weaker with every use. Salamence has Hydro Pump, in the rain, thats hits even harder than Hurricane due to Salamence's superior offensive stats in every category. As well, you can argue accuracy, but water is a much much better offensive type than flying will ever be.
You really cannot get some things with logical reasoning alone.I told you so mant times how Dragonite's power and coverage is superb yet all you are telling me is how Salamence is better.So go on and do calcs about all the ou tier with your mixmence and the rain abusing mixnite and then come to talk here.

Also don't forget that Dragonite has priority which is invaluable. once again, not much power behind that priority. Even with a life orb, you're not going to be getting any 2HKOs unless what your hitting is Meinshao or something.
Again this ''weak'' priority is meant to finish off foes that got hit by your primary attack.Seriously have you ever played a pokemon game?

Both are very good but to call Salamence a better wallbreaker is an understatement of Dragonite and not true in the slightest... Its completely true, I think everyone here has proven this already.
Yes you have proven it veryy clearly with all thes facts that you presented!!You have yet to give me one single example of a real life battle,which involves a poke that can be ohkoed by Salamence and not by Dnite.(talking about the mixed sets obviously)

Finally about your sayings on Gliscor i have to say this.
Excacrill or not Poison Heal Gliscor is and will be the better Gliscor out there for multiple reasons. I agree with you for once O.o Poison heal Gliscor is pseudo immune to status, and can run an absolutely deadly Subtect staller. The only move you miss out is Roost, which you'll probably get back in 5th gen move tutor or something.
Ok!

Because you cannot understand these reasons doesn't mean that your arguments are justified.Well we got a little hypocrite here don't we
Here you got me!!!So unfortunate for me!!!

 

[tehy]

Spdef jellicent walls that set entirely;takes half damage from thunder and recovers it off. Eventually, i can just go to hippowdon on a thunder if i feel like it, stall you out even harder.

 

[Eggbert]

New World, the point of using multiscale + LO is not to maintain it for the whole game, but to use it as a one time shield and then retaliate. (against offensive teams) This means that something on the other team will die since only like 2 OUs can OHKO through multiscale. Dragonite also hits much harder than naive salamence and is much bulkier. Against stall teams you are faster anyway except that they can't force you out because of -2.

And tehy your jellicent takes at least 70% from thunder meaning you have to sac something before you bring it in and start recover stalling. The 30% paralysis and 30% confusion nite is capable of can also be annoying if you are recovering off multiple hits. And don't act like you can stall it out with ease, once it takes down a member of your team you are open to being swept by other things (ie if you lose Skarm, gliscor can sweep you ;), which is the point of a wallbreaker

 

[tehy]

And about the exca thing;here's the deal. If you use skarm, LO sets will get stalled out pretty easily. Balloon sets either get it popped early or save it until the end. At that point, all you need is something that can take a timid excadrill's attack and polish it off.

 

[badabing]

@egg: It can't beat rachi without either inner focus or considerable speed investment so something isn't going to add up on that set...

edit @ alexwolf: That still won't cut it against Wish + Protect

 

[Raikaria]

Skarmoury can easily come in as excadrill sd, roost take 30-40 percent from rock slide and whirlwind out,

also poison heal gliscor is far superior and gliscor cares about all status, burn? goodbye leftovers recovery hello -6% health per turn and oh look earthquake no longer ohkos terrakion or excadrill giving them time for another sd = gg.

Freeze = gg
sleep = gg breloom sweep
paralysation = the ever common jirachi now laughs at you as it paralyses you leaving you to lose to excadrill between flinches and para

GG TFP

You missed my point entierly about Skamory, so this is the final time I'll explain. Skarmory can only WW Excadrill out. If it brings in something it cannot Roost on, Skarm is forced out, and dosen't get to Roost. It will be at great risk of being KO'ed by Excadrill next switch-in. And woe betide the Skarm who WW's in something it can't roost on a 2nd time.

The point about Poision Heal Gliscor:

1: Why bring Excadrill into it? I'm saying Poision Heal will drop in useage if Excadrill is banned. I never said that Roost Gliscor > Poision Heal for Excadrill.

2: My point was DEFENSIVE Gliscor dosen't care about burns. OK, -6% health per turn. Woop De Doo. I can restore 50%. Take away that 6%, and that's 44%. FAR superior to 12% recovery, don't you think? Oh, and Terrakion is very easy to stop, you hardly need Gliscor to do that. You know, being weak to all priority except ExtremeSpeed/Quick Attack, and having weaknesses to the most common types in the game, and being vunerable to all hazards?

And, I'd rather risk a Burn on my Gliscor in an Excadrill-less metagame than lose Roost.

As for the Terrakion point, see #3.

3: Team Preveiw, if you know your foe carries sleep, and has something like Terrakion, why would you send Gliscor into the sleep inducer? If you need Gliscor, you wouldn't let it get slept.

4: The mere mention of a Freeze on Gliscor is stupid. It's x4 weak to Ice. The only move that can induce a freeze that isn't Ice is Tri Attack.

5: Breloom Sweep? Gen 5? *Sigh* another sign you have no clue what you are talking about. Breloom was annoying in Gen 4, but now, the only thing it manages is abuseing the new Sleep Mechanics.... and even then, something as frail as Breloom coming in, and then getting a Spore off? Not gonna happen when Gliscor is already switched in.

6: What sane Jirachi is gonna Body Slam Gliscor? Who can Earthquake it to death? Hell, most Jirachi run Thunder Wave anyway.

Without Excadrill for Poision Heal Gliscor to counter, Roost Gliscor will be superior when utilised by competant players. The ones who are smart enough to keep Gliscor away from status. Poision Heal will be inferior without Excadrill in the metagame, as it dosen't do anything that Roost Gliscor cannot. [Except being a status-sponge, but you're a far less effective physical wall/tank/attacker.]

 

[X5Dragon]

Personally the only time anyone should use LO + Multiscale is to run Dragon Claw and maintain freedom instead of Outrage and consume a Lum berry that may go away due to status effects at anytime.

Hyper Offensive teams such as my self or those that use Nite as a clean up-sweeper think of MS as Egg said, a one time shield, a turbo button.

 

[alexwolf]

Spdef jellicent walls that set entirely;takes half damage from thunder and recovers it off. Eventually, i can just go to hippowdon on a thunder if i feel like it, stall you out even harder.

Here is the damage that a max/max HP/S.Def Jellicent takes from Thunder:
328 Atk vs 339 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 216 - 256 (53.47% - 63.37%).

A 100% 2hko even without rocks.Not to mention that this set is very rare.

If you go to Hippo then you get 2hkoed by Hurricane 100% of the time,49% when you factor in Hurricane's accuracy!

@egg: It can't beat rachi without either inner focus or considerable speed investment so something isn't going to add up on that set...

Even without inner focus it can beat it 40% of the time.
Basically you hit it the first time it comes in,it takes a hit losing 52,6% on average,and then if Iron Head doesn't flinch you ko next turn!
Not the best solution but still Jirachi is far from a counter...

6: What sane Jirachi is gonna Body Slam Gliscor? Who can Earthquake it to death? Hell, most Jirachi run Thunder Wave anyway.

They are going to use Body Slam when you switch in to wall them!Because you know Gliscor is a Jirachi counter and that is what counters do!
Also the standart paralyzing move on Jirachi is definitely Body Slam!

 

[verycoolguy]

Finally there is nothing to stop Excadrill from using adamant + life orb, which almost everything here gets destroyed by.

But that's the only Excadrill people run, so all those checks you posted aren't even checks. Jolly+Life Orb doesn't even make sense.