np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Nkululeko]

Metagross Pursuit hits harder than Scizor Pursuit, assuming they switch out and Technician is not activated. Of course, it they stay in, Pursuit will be weak as shit either way so it doesnt matter anyway.



As I said, 4G move tutor, though it's illegal with anything in Gen5 (which I guess is just Hone Claws, but still...)



People, don't use Ice Punch on CB Gross. It's bad. Instead, you should just 2HKO standard Gliscor with Meteor Mash.

The OHKO is a big deal if don't want to get outsped and EQ'ed on the next turn, Ev's factor in here but I doubt you're surviving a STAB EQ from Gliscor. And if you're using Choice Band Metagross than it should be a Gen 4 version, Hone Claws+Choice Item=Lol
And btw, Conkeldurr and Metagross are both Bulky Physical attackers. Conkeldurr just does it better. The set up move doesn't always need to be the same for identical roles. For example, SD Excadrill>SD/RP Landorus>Rock Polish Rampardos (all physical sweepers). I go by general team roles, not specific sets.
@Woodchuck Ice Punch shouldn't be a KO w/o Choice Band, unless I need a new damage calculator (with my pokemon expertise, I do), but it also does great against Skarm and Bronzong, making them EQ weak and less reliable counters to your physical sweeper. Like Landorus, which doesn't need a Gliscor lure unless it's Scarfed assuming it goes mixed.
And Metagross has base 95 Sp Atk, why would use use something that slow and Mixed for Flash Cannon and Psychic, getting in that Agility isn't a given anymore, don't see the point.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, CB Meta has no problems beating Gliscor with Meteor Mash (needs SR support). Ice Punch is definitely nice to one-shot it, though, since Metagross wouldn't enjoy stuffing an EQ. MMash - EQ - Hammer Arm - ThunderPunch is probably the best combination of moves to hit everything hard.

@Woodchuck: true, if Metagross can pick off Gliscor with Ice Punch, that's one less thing Meta doesn't have to waste its Trick + Iron Ball on.

Does anyone know if Gliscor holding an Iron Ball would lose its Fighting / Bug resistance? That would be good news for Scizor, Conkeldurr, and Terrakion. Just wondering.

EDIT: Gliscor's EQ doesn't come close to an OHKO on min HP / min Def Metagross. If Meta is running bulk, it can even take two.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I'm pretty sure Metagross is sturdy enough not to be OHKO'd by a Gliscor's Earthquake (yes, a Swords Dance boosted one from the standard set)...or many other Earthquakes for that matter. Its stat distribution is still competitive and ideal.

 

[lordkira]

I'm pretty sure Metagross is sturdy enough not to be OHKO'd by a Gliscor's Earthquake (yes, a Swords Dance boosted one from the standard set)...or many other Earthquakes for that matter. Its stat distribution is still competitive and ideal.

I'm pretty sure even impish glister with no attack boost will do around 50% with EQ (without swords dance) to the standard CB metagross, OHKO if SD'd

 

[SJCrew]

It's just the STABs that are the problem. You can't just go around spamming Meteor Mash when you know your opponent's running a Rain team and has at least three things that resist it. Your prediction needs to be at the absolute top of its game to surmount that one major flaw, which is why people usually wouldn't bother and just got to Scizor to spam U-turn. Metagross's niche in this metagame is really small.

 

[Nkululeko]

Yea, CB Meta has no problems beating Gliscor with Meteor Mash (needs SR support). Ice Punch is definitely nice to one-shot it, though, since Metagross wouldn't enjoy stuffing an EQ. MMash - EQ - Hammer Arm - ThunderPunch is probably the best combination of moves to hit everything hard.

@Woodchuck: true, if Metagross can pick off Gliscor with Ice Punch, that's one less thing Meta doesn't have to waste its Trick + Iron Ball on.

Does anyone know if Gliscor holding an Iron Ball would lose its Fighting / Bug resistance? That would be good news for Scizor, Conkeldurr, and Terrakion. Just wondering.

EDIT: Gliscor's EQ doesn't come close to an OHKO on min HP / min Def Metagross. If Meta is running bulk, it can even take two.

Bulbapedia says it doesn't work that way (Serebii's probably more reliable but I use Bulbapedia cuz it just looks more pleasant). Looks like the only thing Metagross has to worry about is SD Gliscor (even then, not really), didn't know it could man handle Gliscor, I'm kinda shocked.

Edit: @SJCrew That's why I didn't add Meter Mash. Metagross has great defensive typing, even though it has good attack, Steel is still one of the worst offensive types in the game. And your prediction doesn't have to be too great, there's always switching out. If you're aiming for a physical sweep (and using Metagross as a lure) then you should spot threats to your sweeper in Team Preview, see which one your opponent uses/bluffs as their primary counter to it, and wear it or w/e they switch out to down with strong neutral, or solid SE, hits. However I will agree that Metagross' niche in OU is really small, [playing back up to a physical sweeper typically doesn't get too much usage.

 

[New World Order]

Hey Smack Down was pretty good on Excadrill, in lieu of X-Scissor (which it probably needed more but it worked), if Bronzong or Skarm was your opponents main 'Drill counter Smack Down on the obvious switch and EQ could seriously dent if not KO (probably not a one shot but 'Zong wasn't too bulky).
And with Trickballin', Metagross finally has something not done better but Conkeldurr (typing makes it a nicer lure IMO).

Edit: @Winston, Ice Punch should be a OHKO with Choice Band, otherwise that EQ is gonna hurt. But if 'Gross is a physical lure I'm guessin' it should use something along the lines of Ice Punch/Trick/ and EQ to take out/cripple Gliscor, Bronzong (it's usage should drop soon but w/e), and Skarmory, Zen Headbutt sounds straight to me, just figuring EV's now.

First of all, Excadrill never had Smack Down. If it did, it would've been Uber a long time ago. SD+EQ+Rock Slide+Smack Down would've been ridiculous.

As well, Metagross's main problem so far has been 5th gen power creep. With things like CB Haxorus Outrage flying around, Metagross has been left in the shadows. With Exca gone, I think the Agiligross set could see more use. Agility+Meteor Mash+Earthquake+Ice/Thunder punch would rip holes in a lot of offensive teams.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I'm pretty sure even impish glister with no attack boost will do around 50% with EQ (without swords dance) to the standard CB metagross, OHKO if SD'd

Ran off calcs. Yup, 41% chance to OHKO it with Swords Dance. You'll need 84 EVs in Def for a 2HKO. Feasible in some aspects, but still a considerable amount to take away from Attack. Ah well, at least you can gamble with it and put in lower amounts.

 

[Nkululeko]

First of all, Excadrill never had Smack Down. If it did, it would've been Uber a long time ago. SD+EQ+Rock Slide+Smack Down would've been ridiculous.

Kinda late to that party. The girl's out of the cake and everybody's had a piece.

As well, Metagross's main problem so far has been 5th gen power creep. With things like CB Haxorus Outrage flying around, Metagross has been left in the shadows. With Exca gone, I think the Agiligross set could see more use. Agility+Meteor Mash+Earthquake+Ice/Thunder punch would rip holes in a lot of offensive teams.

I wouldn't use Metagross as a sweeper, not strong enough to warrant not boosting it's attack, not fast enough to set up on and outspeed offensive teams. If the power creep has done anything it's made Metagross a better partner to the DD Haxorus/Mence's flying around and made Agilgross worse.

 

[Pocket]

Agility Metagross can be a monster as a late-game Sweeper. All it needs is some LO boost to do work. Magnezone for dispatching Steels is probably ideal.

It's a shame that Iron Ball doesn't remove Flying type. According to Bulbapedia, EQ hits neutral on all Flying Types, even Skarmory, which is a shame. I guess they changed the mechanics, otherwise Tornadus would have no typing with an Iron Ball lol. Thanks for the confirmation, Nkululeko.

In the same vein, I wonder if a smacked down Skarmory is only neutral to EQ rather than weak to it.

You're right SJCrew and NWO, MMash isn't the best thing to be spamming (Magnezone bait), and there are way too many mons that resist this main offense. CBMeta still has potential imo, since it does have the moves to hit everything hard. Magnezone would help a lot here, too, lol, since it can free up a slot for Zen Headbutt, which provides an alternative STAB offense with good neutral coverage.

Trick + Iron Ball is still a good set-up for Landorus, too.

Speaking of Steel / Psychic mons, I've been using Magic Coat on my specially-defensive Jirachi. I have a Volcarona, so having such an easy spikestacking bait like Jirachi was really fucking me up. Magic Coat flings all those hazards right back at the opponent, so it's a good way to keep hazards off my field and laying hazards on the opponent's side, lol. It's also good for keeping Jirachi status-free aside from Scald burns.

 

[Nkululeko]

Agility Metagross can be a monster as a late-game Sweeper. All it needs is some LO boost to do work. Magnezone for dispatching Steels is probably ideal.

It's a shame that Iron Ball doesn't remove Flying type. According to Bulbapedia, EQ hits neutral on all Flying Types, even Skarmory, which is a shame. I guess they changed the mechanics, otherwise Tornadus would have no typing with an Iron Ball lol. Thanks for the confirmation, Nkululeko.

In the same vein, I wonder if a smacked down Skarmory is only neutral to EQ rather than weak to it.

You're right SJCrew and NWO, MMash isn't the best thing to be spamming (Magnezone bait), and there are way too many mons that resist this main offense. CBMeta still has potential imo, since it does have the moves to hit everything hard. Magnezone would help a lot here, too, lol, since it can free up a slot for Zen Headbutt, which provides an alternative STAB offense with good neutral coverage.

Trick + Iron Ball is still a good set-up for Landorus, too.

Speaking of Steel / Psychic mons, I've been using Magic Coat on my specially-defensive Jirachi. I have a Volcarona, so having such an easy spikestacking bait like Jirachi was really fucking me up. Magic Coat flings all those hazards right back at the opponent, so it's a good way to keep hazards off my field and laying hazards on the opponent's side, lol. It's also good for keeping Jirachi status-free aside from Scald burns.

No problem man. On the 'Rachi thing, it sounds good. All Sp Def Jirachi usually packs is Iron Head, a Parahax inducing move, and Wish-Protect/two filler. You might not even need the protect now that I think about it, but the idea's still the same (half-hax, half-support). But if you're using it with Volcarona then I suggest you ladder now, nobody'll see it comin'. Their typing together is good besides Ground weakness and the strategy is sound, and very creative.

And btw, as much as I hate Jirachi, it's still part of my favorite opening line to a suspect nomination.

Jirachi
Broken ass little pixie makes the game uncompetitive as hell.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Offensive spikes are quite good in this meta now that Excadrill is gone. Last fomat, I couldn't really find any usable ghosts that could wall Excadrill, and it just kept coming in with its balloon and spun infinitely. Starmie is a great spinner too, but I find it easier to stop since it can hardly find time to recover against offense. It never spins more than once per game, if at all.

Two Pokemon that have been extremely successful for me in my tests so far on spikes based teams are RestTalk Gyarados and Life Orb Deoxys-e. Gyarados simply doesn't die to anything that isn't an electric or STAB rock attack, while Deoxys-e sweeps everything after SR + 2 layers are up. The standard Psycho Boost, Boltbeam, Superpower set is absolutely fantastic in this format, and is now the fastest thing in all of OU (except the occasional Jolly Scarf Terrakion or Timid Scarfmie).

 

[Nonary Game]

Well, since Excadrill and Thundurus got kicked upstairs, I finally found myself able to actually build a team that didn't rely on Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, Gliscor, my own Excadrill, or some other weather to control Excadrill, lest it just murder bitches everywhere. I didn't see Thundurus often, but the few times I did, it always dealt nasty amounts of damage to even a specially defensive Jirachi of all things. Overall I knew Excadrill was a pain, but didn't think it warped the metagame to where everyone wanted it banned.

Moving along, with the threat of Excadrill out of the way, what could I potentially use in place of the mole? I used a scarfed variant with Rapid Spin to clear the way for Volcarona. Perhaps Starmie could replace him?

 

[Pocket]

If it's primary role was a Scarf Rapid Spinner (weird), then Starmie probably fits the bill, since it pulls it off well. However, nothing will truly replace Excadrill as a Rapid Spinner, since it's combination of bulk, resistances, and offense cannot be met by any remaining Spinners imo.

Speaking of RestTalk Gyarados and SpikeStacking, RaikouLover told me about the interesting set he's trying out: Dragon Tail - Roar - Rest - Sleep Talk. Sounds like a bitch of a Pokemon, lol. People really underrate the bulk of Gyarados. It has all the useful resistance as Dragonite, such as Fighting, Bug, Fire, and Ground, but it doesn't have that exploitable Dragon or Ice weakness, which makes a huge difference when it comes to countering shit like SDance Lucario. Intimidate is also much more consistent and reliable than Multiscale.

 

[New World Order]

Pocket, I agree, Starmie is not Excadrill. Sure it still blows Jellicent to kingdom come, it has trouble dealing with more dedicated spinblockers such as Dusclops and Spiritomb. Laugh as you may, but Dusclops has the best overall bulk among all OU viable ghost types, and while Spiritomb seems to suck, I personally feel those immunities to fighting and psychic will ensure Spiritomb a niche in OU.

While that Resttalk Gyarados certainly has potential on a stall team, I fail to see how it counters threats such as SD Lucario? Where's the damage output? Dragon Tail? If Luke or whoever is the last man standing, the team is going to get plowed anyways.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

No Gyrados still is a hard counter for Lucario. Even before stealth rocks and life orb damage, waterfall is a 3HKO 100% of the time. No to mention the strongest move it has to hit it with it is close combat, which is only a 3 HKO at +1 (intimidate), not even factoring leftovers, and Lucario is then 2HKOed after its defenses go down. Gyrados could only be killed if its sleeping, and has stealth rocks damage upon coming in, and even then, it could be lucky with waterfall sleep talk.

BTW, crunch and extreme speed are only 4HKOes

 

[NoUserName]

Metagross Pursuit hits harder than Scizor Pursuit, assuming they switch out and Technician is not activated. Of course, it they stay in, Pursuit will be weak as shit either way so it doesnt matter anyway.



As I said, 4G move tutor, though it's illegal with anything in Gen5 (which I guess is just Hone Claws, but still...)



People, don't use Ice Punch on CB Gross. It's bad. Instead, you should just 2HKO standard Gliscor with Meteor Mash. With max EVs and Adamant, the 2HKO is guaranteed.

It does not care, Illegalities would be with Egg Moves exclusives to 5th gen(none, in Metagross case) or DW ability(which is useless compared to Intimidate, reducing damage to the rares Low Kick and Grass Knot(even Metagross has no worry about GK) and losing the Punches and inmunity to Intimidate)

So, Thunderpunch is so useful in metagross, unexpected and takes away those ugly water pokemon who appear to wall it.
Also Skarmory dislikes TP.

Pursuit to trap Latios and Kazam.

I think Scarf Metagross would be useful, Tricking those waters and outspeed all OU tier bar Scarfers and Deoxys-S, or Tricking walls like Skarm o crippling Reuniclus(Reuniclus with Scarf and Trickless would be the scariest set ever, even more than Defog Skarm with hazard support)

Hone Claws would be interesting with paralysis support. Also perfect Meteor Mash accuracy is nice.

I think Metagross fall in usage due the nerfed Explosion and Drizzle, Drought and Air Balloons everywhere.

 

[alphatron]

Doesn't lucario learn stone edge though? With volcorona around, I'd say that he should be running it, lest you become setup fodder when it catches you with your pants down.

 

[Bad Ass]

hmm, what can spin these days without Excadrill roaming around? Starmie seems to be a good choice, but it's not really what a water-type needs to be these days (sponging hits from the likes of Gliscor, Heatran, and MixTar). Sure it's got a ton of power, coverage, and speed, you will probably need to fit in another water-type or something to fill the role. Maybe that's not so bad but with all of the Latios, Haxorus, and other things that smash waters to high heaven it sure very good!

Even though I harp about Starmie lacking things that water-types need, it's really a fantastic Pokemon if you run a more fast paced team. I love Hydro Pump / Recover / Rapid Spin / Psyshock @ Life Orb. Psychock finally gives Starmie a way to be able to hit everything neutrally in 1 move so that it can use Recover and Rapid Spin on the same set. Hits Waters, Grasses, Blissey, pretty much everything, hard. Great revenge killer to Terrakion, Virizion, and pretty much everything below 361 speed. Recover lets it stick around against Heatran, Gliscor, etc. Just don't plan on it being as sturdy a check to those two as, say, Gyarados or Suicune.

Lastly, Choice Band Terrakion is a monster. Plain and simple. It tears the entire metagame up. Even Gliscor is felled by 2 Stone Edges with Stealth Rock and a bit of prior damage. Even so, it can't OHKO with Earthquake. Seriously, try it NOW. Pair it with Spikes as well and pretty much every time it comes in, you will get an OHKO. It does crazy stuff like OHKOing Rotom-W, doing 70%+ to Landorus and Latios and OHKOing Tornadus (and previously Thundurus) with SR support, 2HKOing Skarmory, and OHKOing many specially defensive Jirachi and all Scizor with just SR support (not needed for Scizor). Use it now.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

hmm, what can spin these days without Excadrill roaming around? Starmie seems to be a good choice, but it's not really what a water-type needs to be these days (sponging hits from the likes of Gliscor, Heatran, and MixTar). Sure it's got a ton of power, coverage, and speed, you will probably need to fit in another water-type or something to fill the role. Maybe that's not so bad but with all of the Latios, Haxorus, and other things that smash waters to high heaven it sure very good!

Even though I harp about Starmie lacking things that water-types need, it's really a fantastic Pokemon if you run a more fast paced team. I love Hydro Pump / Recover / Rapid Spin / Psyshock @ Life Orb. Psychock finally gives Starmie a way to be able to hit everything neutrally in 1 move so that it can use Recover and Rapid Spin on the same set. Hits Waters, Grasses, Blissey, pretty much everything, hard. Great revenge killer to Terrakion, Virizion, and pretty much everything below 361 speed. Recover lets it stick around against Heatran, Gliscor, etc. Just don't plan on it being as sturdy a check to those two as, say, Gyarados or Suicune.

Lastly, Choice Band Terrakion is a monster. Plain and simple. It tears the entire metagame up. Even Gliscor is felled by 2 Stone Edges with Stealth Rock and a bit of prior damage. Even so, it can't OHKO with Earthquake. Seriously, try it NOW. Pair it with Spikes as well and pretty much every time it comes in, you will get an OHKO. It does crazy stuff like OHKOing Rotom-W, doing 70%+ to Landorus and Latios and OHKOing Tornadus (and previously Thundurus) with SR support, 2HKOing Skarmory, and OHKOing many specially defensive Jirachi and all Scizor with just SR support (not needed for Scizor). Use it now.

Y U NO USE BLASTOISE? Nah jk, he isn't too great.


CB Terrakion is an ass hole. He's the reason I'm using Scarf Rotom-W over Specs <,<


Has anyone used SEAKING? I was using it as a joke, but it actually worked with lightningrod o_o
LO + Agility with Return, Waterfall, and Megahorn. Sure, it only has 311 Attack, but it's hilarious to actually safely switch in on Rotom-W's Volt Switch and watch people say "wtf".

Oh, btw, does ANYONE have ANY use for Articuno? It seems like he can't do anything right. Ignoring the 4x Rock weakness for a second, he can take hits like a champ sometimes, but then I think I should just be using Zapdos instead. Will this poor thing remain NU forever?

 

[THATSAplusONE]

Articuno is barley usable in the lower tiers. I wish it were more usable too, but the SR weakness just kills it before it can even do anything.

 

[New World Order]

No Gyrados still is a hard counter for Lucario. Even before stealth rocks and life orb damage, waterfall is a 3HKO 100% of the time. No to mention the strongest move it has to hit it with it is close combat, which is only a 3 HKO at +1 (intimidate), not even factoring leftovers, and Lucario is then 2HKOed after its defenses go down. Gyrados could only be killed if its sleeping, and has stealth rocks damage upon coming in, and even then, it could be lucky with waterfall sleep talk.

BTW, crunch and extreme speed are only 4HKOes

The Gyarados set I'm talking about doesn't carry Waterfall. Its the Dragon Tail+Roar+Rest+Sleep Talk set Pocket mentioned. Even though Crunch is only a 4HKO, would you care to calculate how long it'll take Gyarados to take down Lucario with Dragon Tail?

Y U NO USE BLASTOISE? Nah jk, he isn't too great.


CB Terrakion is an ass hole. He's the reason I'm using Scarf Rotom-W over Specs <,<


Has anyone used SEAKING? I was using it as a joke, but it actually worked with lightningrod o_o
LO + Agility with Return, Waterfall, and Megahorn. Sure, it only has 311 Attack, but it's hilarious to actually safely switch in on Rotom-W's Volt Switch and watch people say "wtf".

Oh, btw, does ANYONE have ANY use for Articuno? It seems like he can't do anything right. Ignoring the 4x Rock weakness for a second, he can take hits like a champ sometimes, but then I think I should just be using Zapdos instead. Will this poor thing remain NU forever?

With CB Terrakion, your best answers are Slowbro and Mew, although with Spikes support, even Mew will be taking a beating. Most teams should just rely on revenge killing Terrakion, or double switch to your scarfer when you predict a CB Terra switchin. Unless you have that bulky fighting resist, your only way of dealing with CB Terra is smart play.

I've actually been owned by a Seaking before, in the exact situation you stated. I use Volt Switch on my Scarfed Rotom-W, and find to my surprise a fucking goldfish can survive electricity now. The I switch into a Celebi only to get hit by a big fat Megahorn. I would later lose my Volcorona to this douchebag as well. Oh well, I learned my lesson. Seakings can now survive Electric moves.

Oh yeah, and yes Articuno will remain NU forever. Unless Gamefreak gives it some freak new ability/ move, the fact that Articuno gets mauled by Ttar, Rotom-W, Scizor, and Ferrothorn (the 4 most common pokes in the game) as well as its SR weakness and poor defensive typing in general, this thing is doomed to rot in the lower tiers.

 

[NoUserName]

Articuno is barley usable in the lower tiers. I wish it were more usable too, but the SR weakness just kills it before it can even do anything.

It also has the "I can do nothing to Steels!"

 

[xero_k]

well now that thunderus is banned i wonder what will replace him as the best anti lead. I hope not whimiscott, that thing sucks @ss. If he somehow gets taunted with no sub up, he's screwed because those that do use him(i don't think) don't use attacks on him.

What kills him is predictability. I basically walled a team with the puff ball because they mispredicted and didn't have anything immune to leech seed... With Thundurus gone, his most solid counter is also gone. Not say he's amazing, but he can really screw with people. He can REALLY be a middle finger to a stall team that hates his priority Taunt, or Leech Seed... plus Sub... if he runs protect, that makes him a little more of a troll, if he runs memento, he has something useful against an offensive team.

With some prediction, he can usually make SOME use of himself, even if it's just firing off a leech seed before it goes down.

 

[alphatron]

Substitute isn't good on whimsicott though. Subseeder whimsicott doesn't work at all with rotom-W/Scizor and ferrothorn everywhere. Whimsicott is best used as a disrupter with encore, stun spore, and two filler moves. You can run taunt, but the ability to eternally encore a dragon dancer/ bulk upper/quiver dancer no matter how many boosts they get up is satisfying. And stun spore is your get out of jail free card too for speedy pokemon who may have put you in a bind as well.

Plus, whimsicott is insurance. No one in their right mind is going to attempt to use a setup sweeper as long as its still alive and on your team. You can use this to your advantage by outpredicting them as they predict the whimsicott switch in. Although I despise using whimsicott on drought teams, I have had a few successful turns in which my opponent's dragonite goes for the fire punch on my heatran when they expected the switch to whimsicott instead.

Honestly, I'm mainly parroting what Green Mage always says about whimsicott. But in short, don't bother using sub/protect on this pokemon. You hamper your utility for the glorious ability to do nothing in return.