np: RU Stage 2 - Dancing Queen

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Damn, really thought I had made council.

Personally the only suspects I would like to see gone are Gorebyss and Huntail. Its far too easy to play with SmashPass unless you are overprepared for it or run Trick Room, and the lack of walls capable of dealing with it down here makes it that much more dangerous. As for the culprits I believe its Gorebyss and Huntail that need to go, they're more than capable of sweeping of their own accord and can then pass off the boosts to one of the capable receivers we have.

 

[November Blue]

I'm fairly certain that Huntail and Gorebyss would be banned rather than implementing a complex ban. This is the way it's always been, and rain was the one exception.

 

[Nails]

for the record, i am strongly against complex banning; i was probably the most vocal opponent of aldaron's proposal. however, i feel that smashpass is an acceptable use of a complex ban.

the requirement for a complex ban is that all, or a large number of pokemon must be broken when using a tactic. smashpass is even a better use of a complex ban than drizzle + swift swim, as all of the abusers function in roughly the same way, so if you feel one if overpowered they all are.

on the topic of the suspects: stop forgetting smeargle. spore lets it guarantee a free turn to set up; with a sash you can smash while getting knocked down to 1 hp, spore while you outspeed everything, and then pass while they switch to ensure your reciever gets in safely. taunt and magic coat also block status, something gorebyss and huntail would kill for. the near guaranteed pass makes up for the lack of attacks which are gorebyss and huntail's main draw.

 

[Oglemi]

There's three ways to get around a smashpass ban:
1. No Shell Smash + Baton Pass on same set, but no specific Pokemon is banned. You can still use your Amnesia-pass Gorebyss, SR + Spikes Smeargle, what have you.

TL;DR: So Oglemi, which one were you thinking when you put Smashpass as one of the suspects? Or are we just gonna not worry about this until it actually gets voted?

This is exactly how I saw the ban being implemented.

Though, I am still open to suggestions to instead just have Huntail, Gorebyss, and Smeargle on the ballot instead of Shell Smash + Baton Pass if that's what people would really rather vote on.

The reason I put SmashPass on the ballot was because all three users of the strategy are broken, and while Gorebyss and Huntail are indeed threatening sweepers with Shell Smash, I don't find them broken at all without Baton Pass. They become broken, at least imo, when they are able to Pass the boosts on when they are confronted with a wall that they can't sweep through themselves.

Venomoth is kind of irrelevant to the point since it was a broken Quiver Dance sweeper, and then it got Baton Pass on top of that. imo Venomoth would have been broken even if we implemented a Quiver Dance + Baton Pass ban.

Just my thoughts. Would you guys rather have SmashPass on the ballot or Huntail, Gorebyss, and Smeargle?

 

[Honko]

I don't really like complex bans, but in this case I think Shell Smash + Baton Pass is the better suspect. If it's broken, it's broken on everything that receives it. It doesn't work to compare it to Quiver Passing, because Masquerain can Quiver Pass and Masquerain is clearly not broken, so Venomoth was the problem there. I think SmashPass is a pretty unique case, and I think people are smart enough to not use a SmashPass ban as an excuse to start a trend of unnecessary complex bans. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy, remember.

 

[lars]

unless you are overprepared for it or run Trick Room, and the lack of walls capable of dealing with it down here makes it that much more dangerous.

It's for these exact reasons why I thought Rain and Sun would have been suspects.

Taken slightly out of context for sure, but I couldn't have worded it better.

I'm against banning Honchkrow and Lilligant, but I guess I'm indifferent about SmashPass.

However, if I had to take a stand on it... I would go with

1. No Shell Smash + Baton Pass on same set, but no specific Pokemon is banned.

Quick questions to Nails (or any person that can answer it really), how will this be enforced on PO? Obviously the highest tiered Pokemon on a team sets its tier, but will any Pokemon that has Shell Smash + Baton Pass be considered as an UU or higher tiered Pokemon? Does this directly affect NU and the legality of Smash Pass there (considering all its users are actually NU...)? And finally, when and if the ladder will be reset.

Thanks in advance!

 

[marilli]

Oh, good to know that most of the community is agreeing with each other on this issue. Though before I start, please do tell me if I'm out of my place, crossing the line on an issue that is not mine.

I've always thought that yes, Shell Smash + Baton Pass is the only thing they have that made those three mons suspects. "If it's broken, it's broken on everything that receives it." Yes, that's exactly what I believe too; they function almost identically. But why does Gorebyss and Smeargle get to hang around when their best set is considered banned? When you talk about banning a mon, you always consider the set that uses its full potential. I'm sure the most of you now know how the rest of my argument's gonna go: Gorebyss' best set is banned, and Gorebyss as a whole should be banned as well, etc. etc.

I'm sure this type of argument's cropped up multiple times (nothing is original, heh), and I'm genuinely sorry if this is just beating a dead horse over and over again. (I don't know much about how Aldaron's proposal got passed so i really don't know because I wasn't around to) I mean, very few people use smeargle / gorebyss / huntail to begin with other than for smashpassing, so not like it's gonna take out big, otherwise viable options. IMO I agree with Nails that DrizzleSwim ban wasn't very acceptable use of complex ban as not everything with Swift Swim is broken in rain (like Swift Swim Luvdisc). Still, it covered many troublesome mons like Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Omastar, Gorebyss & Huntail. We only have 3 mons at fault here, and IMO while I feel that a complex ban wouldn't be wrong per se, but why complex ban when there's no need for it?

(Note my wording here suggests / tries to suggest that those three mons may not be banned / broken, and I'm in no ways trying to sway that vote one way or another)

 

[Pocket]

It is apparent that Gorebyss, Huntail, & Smeargle are merely a vessel for the strategy Shell Smash + Baton Pass. Their "brokenness" at the moment resides solely in this exclusive strategy. That is why Drought was banned in UU, rather than Vulpix, since Vulpix was merely a vessel to the overwhelming support of sun. It didn't matter if Drought was on Vulpix or Seel, people would add whatever mon that lets them abuse Drought (with reasonable exceptions - ie Magikarp). SmashPass is similar in nature - if Carracosta or even Torkoal had Smash Pass instead of Gorebyss and Smeargle, people would more than likely use these mons to abuse this strategy.

If you realize what is at fault - a single particular aspect of a mon or the cumulative combination of the mon's characteristic - then it is easy to pinpoint what should be banned. In this case, I think it is clear that the strategy Shell Smash + Baton Pass, rather than Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeargle as individual monsters, are suspect.

 

[Ewil]

Like most of you, i think that Shell Smash+BP on the same set is the way to go, since the three vessel-mons can be used in other ways, smeargle have a lot of utility to pass or abuse and Huntail & Gore can abuse Shell Smash as sweepers (not the same things like passing but always threating though.

 

[jake]

Quick questions to Nails (or any person that can answer it really), how will this be enforced on PO? Obviously the highest tiered Pokemon on a team sets its tier, but will any Pokemon that has Shell Smash + Baton Pass be considered as an UU or higher tiered Pokemon? Does this directly affect NU and the legality of Smash Pass there (considering all its users are actually NU...)? And finally, when and if the ladder will be reset.

Thanks in advance!

The way that it worked with Sableye previously was that because it was banned from RU, it was also not allowed in NU. I would almost guarantee that it'll work in the same way, whether the combination of Shell Smash + Baton Pass is banned or the three abusers. Those three are the only ones with Shell Smash + Baton Pass anyway iirc so if they're given the boot from RU then I'd assume yes, they'll be considered BL2 (or usable in UU and up).

 

[kniteowl]

If Gorebyss and Huntail were gonna be banned (I hope they do) I went to check if Clamperl got Baton Pass thank fully it didn't get it.

Imagine what it could do with Batonpass, just give it an Evolite for defensive sets and deep seas tooth for offensive sets, Surf + Ice beam/Hidden Power is more then enough.

As for whether to ban individual pokemon or Smash Pass, I vote for Smash pass, mostly because I want to keep Smeargle to baton pass ingrain on my baton pass teams, it'd be a huge lost to my baton pass team at least if smeargle was gone.

 

[Nails]

glad to see we have a consensus on smashpass vs the abusers

if a pokemon is banned in one tier it is banned in all tiers below it; for example, wobbuffet is banned from ru depsite the fact that it was never suspect in ru and never reached a high enough usage level to reach uu

 

[Rakan]

SmashPass is definitely the way to go if we're banning something. Gorebyss and Huntail can be dealt with by themselves, but if they Baton Pass and get another sweeper in safely, it's pretty much gg. Although Gorebyss and Huntail are fearsome sweepers in their own right, they are much easier to deal with than a whole bunch of potential sweepers with +2 / +2 / +2...

On the subject of Honchkrow and Lilligant, I feel that they both have enough counters in RU that they shouldn't really be considered broken. Lilligant is completely shut down by Bouffalant, while MoxieKrow (its most common set) is easily walled by basically any Steel-type. MixedKrow can be troublesome, but its low Speed usually causes its downfall.

Long story short, SmashPass should be banned while Honchkrow and Lilligant stay.

EDIT: On second thought, it might be good to ban Gorebyss... I just got to the RU leaderboard in just 5 battles using Gorebyss >.<

 

[Nails]

modest clamperl is horrible; it is outsped at +2 by positive natured base 100s. it takes 71.7% - 84.43% from an unboosted entei espeed, choice band ohkoes 100% of the time, and if you have any residual damage you can ko. honchkrow has a guaranteed ko with sucker punch, and pretty much anything faster can at least revenge kill. the fact that it's the most powerful shell smasher doesn't change the fact that it's by far the easiest to revenge kill.

edit: and really, after you account for the fact that it has to use surf for stab, omastar with a life orb hits 10% harder, discounting the higher defenses and speed

 

[alexwolf]

A complex ban should be done only for saving a great amount of pokes like aldaron's proposal did and as an extreme emergency measure.

I don't really understand why you try to isolate the combination of factors that break something,instead of banning these few pokes.
If it was for saving a large amount of pokes that will greatly benefit the metagame with their pressence then it would be ok but is keeping 2 pokes that are not so influencial in the metagame right now(not entirely sure about this,feel free to correct me) more important than keeping our ruleset more simple?

I repeat bans should be avoided and done only as last solutions.
BANS.
Not even talking about complex bans.
Complex bans are like the last possible solution to an unsolvable big problem.

Do these 2 smash passers pose such a problem?I don't think so...

If Gorebyss and Huntail are broken in RU ban them.
What does the metagame gain from a complex ban of smashpass that it doesn't if you just ban those 2 pokes?
Ok you manage to keep those 2 pokes as Shell Smash sweepers in exchange for complicating the ruleset even more,setting precedent for many many more bans that could take a very ugly course and finally making the whole smogon community even more ban happy with new kind of bans to abuse.
Is it really worth it?

 

[Pocket]

I'm pretty sure the RU council wont all of a sudden start banning more mons / complex ban stuff just b/c we elected the most pragmatic choice in suspecting Smash Pass.

Saving a large amount of pokes from being banned was the reason for Aldaron's Proposal. It was a reason that compensated for its shortcomings, specifically not fulfilling the "if everything with the suspect strategy is broken, then it's broken" criteria.

Smash Pass meets this criteria, though, so that's more than enough reason to ban 1 strategy vs 3 Pokemon who may be perfectly viable without the strategy.

 

[Nails]

What does the metagame gain from a complex ban of smashpass that it doesn't if you just ban those 2 pokes?

this is an irrelevant point. that's not how you decide whether or not to complex ban something. in this situation, all smashpassers function roughly the same. if there were 10 pokemon who could pass shell smash and only three were broken, it would obviously be the abusers who were broken. however, when every pokemon with the strategy is overpowered, it is the strategy that is broken; not the abusers.

we've reached almost a full consensus over the issue of gorebyss/huntail/smeargle vs smashpass. let's let the issue rest.

 

[Furosuto]

Now, I was just trying a new set with an underused mon that is in NU: Pidgeot.

Laugh all you like, but this mon is actually pretty decent with a cheer up set. It has access to some nice special moves (heat wave, hurricane, air slash, hp fighting), and has access to a great recovery move. On top of that, it has a trolly base 91 speed which outspeeds lilligant's base speed by 1. While it may take 2 cheer ups to actually do anything, the first time I've used it, it swept through 4 out of the 6 mons my foe had before dying. I normally always gets a kill.

I know it's outclassed, but I think it's worth a mention. Give it the right teammates and you're set to go.

 

[Nails]

sorry, but if i'm going to bother running a special sweeper i'm using something else. lilligant can boost speed and special defense and has a typing with useful resisances. cm uxie is faster, stronger, and bulkier. subcharge rotom-f has near unresisted stab and matches up well against hail. normal/flying is quite possibly the worst possible defensive typing that isn't part ice, it offers no useful resistances or immunities (ground is paired with rock, rotom has electric stab). not that normal/flying types can't be useful... they need to be fast and powerful though, and pidgeot is neither.

as you said, it's outclassed. why would i use it when i can use an objectively better pokemon?

 

[Furosuto]

I'm just surprised by it, that's all. It's able to get so many kills in, even though it's outclassed. It surprises me as something more powerful than people think of it is depicted. However, it is outclassed. I'll give it that.

Also, what are some good moves to go with spikes on omastar?

 

[Yuelia]

Also, what are some good moves to go with spikes on omastar?

Scald is a great place to start, since the burn chance is always welcome and a base 80 Water STAB off 115 SpA will hurt even without much investment. Then Stealth Rock, or Toxic Spikes, if you don't already have them (it should be noted that Omastar can only use up to 2 hazards on one set due to legality issues). After that, probably Knock Off, since the chance to ruin a switch-in is a really helpful thing to have.

 

[Upstart]

I just have to say that knock off is such an amazing move in this tier with the high usage of eviolite that practically neuters pre-evos, while at the same time taking away the pesky scarves, specs, bands, etc.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Oh my God, Coil Arbok is amazing. A simple Coil, Gunk Shot, Earthquake, Sucker Punch set is amazing. Not only does it get really bulky, it has priority to deal with fast psychics, not to mention an excellent 120 base power STAB move. Two great abilities also help: intimidate helps in setting up Coils, whereas with Shed skin you can run Rest, and it helps against random paralysis and burns. Can't wait to write up the analysis for this beast...

 

[EonADS]

^ Haha, I've been running Coil Arbok for a while now on different alts, and it always manages to impress. One thing I've found helpful is Aqua Tail, which still gets great coverage but also hits Rhydon extremely hard.