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np: RU Stage 2 - Dancing Queen

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Oglemi, Oct 26, 2011.

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  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi dab.
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    Secret Boss Mod

    Oct 13, 2009
    Here we are folks! RU has just experienced it's second round of banning suspects, and Alakazam and Sableye are out of the tier for good! So, what's going to happen to the tier now? Well, take a look at my new thread to get an idea of how suspects will be voted on.

    So who will come to the fore in this round? Will Honchkrow wreak his bossly havoc on the tier? Will Lilligant Quiver Dance her way through teams like a hot knife through butter? Is SmashPass going to dominate? I can't wait to find out!

    This Stage will end on November 14th, at 11:59 EST at which time the voters will be revealed and the suspects will be determined, with voting taking place on that Friday.

    Once again, please keep the focus on metagame discussion. And by discussion, I mean backing up your ideas with sound evidence. If you want to post about how Snover counters every Entei set in existence or how Medicham is an underrated switch into Cofagrigus then that's fine, just make sure you back it up with calcs.

    In case it wasn't clear, don't make one sentence posts.

    Also remember that you can become a member of the Council by making great posts here, so get cracking!
  2. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

    Jun 26, 2010
    I actually see Honchkrow being a little too powerful mainly because of its unpredictablity. Think you can wall it with Steelix? Take a Heat Wave to the face. Omastar? HP Grass. Or maybe Honchkrow gets a sub on you and you bring in a revenge killer? Sucker Punch to the face and now your facing a +1 Krow. With hazard support it can be hard to stop Krow from doing work on your team. My two cents.

    Haven't seen any Lilligant around lately so ill reserve judgment on that.
  3. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    Dec 6, 2009
    We were talking in IRC earlier today about SmashPass. More specifically, the fact that we never see it. We've got Uxie for Dual Screens and Memento, all three SmashPassers, and recipients like Electivire, Magmortar, Honchkrow, and Mixed Rhydon (lol) but I don't think I've seen a single SmashPass team since RU started. There's not a lot of Taunt, and the only real phazers are Munchlax and Steelix, so why isn't anyone using it?
  4. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    I think the main reason people don't use SmashPass in RU is that there's no real incentive: There aren't elusive "reqs" to get (#1 seat I guess but still) so why not play something more fun?

    Is it just me who hasn't really seen much of a change after Zam and Sableye were banned? I mean, there were more physical sweepers than before for obvious reasons, but overall team structure etc seems pretty much the exact same. I haven't noticed anything really spike or drop since they went, although I'm not trying to say they weren't broken (they definitely were.)
  5. bluemon


    Oct 21, 2010
    you know what is severly underrated?

    baton pass.

    sure, there are no espeons, but the lack of phazers (and most use roar) means that baton pass has a field day. i easily swept many teams with my team of..


    since mr.mime's ability blocks roar and perish song, i can easily get many boosts. drowzee is immune to sleep and sets screens and learns baton pass, mental herb on ninjask is stupidly god, and volbeat himself has priority encore to ward off taunt and whirlwind. (i dont think it has taunt..) with +6 +6, porygonz just demolishes teams with adaptibility triattack.
  6. Nails

    Nails Nuke the Weebs
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    May 14, 2010
    Consistent laddering is a key part of obtaining a council seat. I'd just like to clear that up at the beginning of the round. If you hit 1650 in the first week of the metagame but leave on vacation for three weeks, we'll take note (using hyperbole to make a point).

    Not to say I'm encouraging anyone to use smashpass (!) but laddering early and often is a good way to get on the council.
  7. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin forever
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    Apr 29, 2009
    Problem with Baton Pass is that RU has viable Hazers (Weezing, Cryogonal), and, well, without Magic Bounce, BP's actually pretty hard to pull off well. Sure, you have Mr. Mime, but you still lose the ability to block Whirlwind (meaning you have to dedicate a slot to Smeargle). However, the one other problem is that there isn't really anything like Espeon that can easily sweep between Assist Power / HP Fight / Sub / Baton Pass without having to drop extremely viable boosting moves that are part of the reason the said mon' fits onto your team (thus, Mr. Mime doesn't really play that role efficiently due to the fact that it's the main Plotpasser available as well as the best CM passer, though I suppose you could use Quiver Dance Volbeat).

    Anyhow, best thing in RU right now is Lilligant, hands down. I remember around the end of stage one, when Oglemi asked a couple of people on IRC which of a few suspects (rain, sun, honchkrow, zam, sableye) they thought were the most broken, and Lilligant was basically listed as broken by everyone. Sleep + Boosting move is really ridiculous. I mean, sure it can be walled, but you're always going to have to essentially sacrifice something to it due to the sleep mechanics, and it's just so easy to set up that it's kinda ridiculous. Hell, you can even pair it with like, Magneton + random physical attacker and just break down everything.

    Oh, and also, will the ladder be reset?
  8. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Jun 28, 2008
    There's also an assload of heavy hitters that are too frail for UU that stay down in RU which sort of directly prevent Baton Passing. I'm speaking of course of Medicham and Honchkrow for example. Magmortar works too.

    I feel like I'm going to go back to my original team that did really well first round and abuse Medicham + Pursuit.
  9. Omicron

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    Feb 17, 2010
    Right now, I personally feel like the majority of the RU metagame is focused on frail, hyper-offensive mons. Medicham, Honchkrow, Sharpedo, Porygon-Z, Lilligant, and more all fall into that category of: Hits very hard, but dies easily. In addition, there really isn't a single counter to all of these threats, so to deal with most of them, it comes down to smart playing rather than having a specific counter for each. Also, there aren't too many "good" Rapid Spin users, the only ones being Hitmonchan/lee Claydol, Sandslash, and Torkoal, meaning that if entry hazards are set up, it only makes it easier for the aforementioned sweepers to decimate entire teams. That being said, stall doesn't seem to fair too well in the current offensively oriented RU metagame.

    Another underrated threat that I have found is Moltres. Moltres has great bulk, amazing Special Attack, and decent Speed, and almost nothing outside of 4x resists can take a Choice Specs Fire Blast to the face. Moltres can also serve as a decent SubRoost staller with Toxic. Toxic Spikes makes it even more effective.

    I also particularly like Omastar. While everyone usually abuses its access to Shell Smash, fast Choice Scarf users can easily come in and revenge Omastar due to its low Speed, even after a Shell Smash. For this reason, I like to use defensive Omastar, which can take resisted hits like a champ, such as Porygon-Z's Tri-Attack, Moltres's Fire Blast, and more. In addition, due to its high Defense, with some investment, Omastar can comfortably survive even physical super effective attacks such as Electivire's Wild Charge, unSTABED Earthquakes, or Hitmonchan's Drain Punch / Mach Punch.

    However, regardless of what "underrated" mons exist in the RU metagame, for now, hyper offensive teams seem to be the way to go, and seem to be the most successful, at least for this round.
  10. VuvuzelaBzz


    Oct 15, 2011
    I've noticed the same, however I attribute it to the fact that a lot of the RU players that didn't have one of the two on their teams are unaware of the fact that they're banned. It's only been a day, which is a fairly short period of time.

    I am curious to know what people are replacing zam and sable with however. Anyone?

    As far as what my view on the metagame is, I was seeing a lot of Entei, Rotom-C, Claydol and Honchkrow prior to the ban and still am. In my experience RU is a primarily offense based tier(bulky offense included). I have seen a few balance and stall teams, however they are by no means the norm.

    From my experience Honchkrow is broken, quite majorly in fact. The moxie set will sweep almost any team after Entei and the possible flying resist is gone, while as stated in a prior post, non-moxie LO can run Heat Wave, stopping Steelix and Magneton cold, as well as Superpower, which will KO 252/252+ Omastar after a Brave Bird and one layer of hazards, even with minimum damage on both hits. If you consider both the wall-breaker and the moxie-sweeper sets, Honchkrow truly has no counters, and due to the fact it possesses Sucker Punch, the amount of checks it has is limited to say the least.

    If anyone's having problems with Lilligant I strongly suggest using Bouffalant. It completely walls it, as well as being useful outside of walling Lilli, or even being a Sap Sipper. The fact that it's on your team will make your opponent reluctant to use any grass attack, which gives you an instant advantage. The best set I've used is by far Substitute/Head Charge / Megahorn /Earthquake, being able to set up a sub in the face of things like Claydol with relative ease and then proceed to do serious damage to the opposing team.

    I'd also like to point out that Qwilfish is excellent in the current metagame. With Intimidate it can fearlessly come in on most Entei(CM is a bit of an issue) and proceed to either set up hazards, or Thunder Wave the switch in. It's also one of the best checks to Durant, being able safely switch in on any move it possesses and paralyze it. Stone Edge at -1 does not 2HKO, and it only has around 50% accuracy before Hone Claws regardless, meaning that statistically, Qwilfish can take 5-6 hits. It also checks rain's physical sweepers, laughing in the face of opposing swift swim Qwilfish while it paralyzes them, and being able to paralyze Kabutops, crippling it.
  11. HuntSaboteur


    Aug 19, 2010
    Honchkrow isn't broken. Many things resist Brave Bird, and if it KOs one thing you can always send out Entei or something to defeat it with Stone Edge + ExtremeSpeed. If Honchkrow is broken then Krookodile (also dark-type Moxier) is even more broken. Which it isn't. Therefore Honchkrow is not broken.

    Lilligant is even less broken as it can be countered by almost anything faster than it and has terrible defensive typing. It's weak to Bug and Fire, and doesn't like Porygon. And it dies to Honchkrow.

    What i think DOES counter 99% of the meta is physical Unburden Sceptile. After two turns of setup (Swords Dance and an attack with a Gem) it has x2 attack and z2 speed. Nobody is prepared for it. I cannot think of anything that defeats it bar some massively physically defensive Evioliters and critical-hit priorities. It's broken when it's set up, but said setup is hard to pull off well.
  12. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    RU Co-Leader

    Jul 27, 2011
    Omicron, although there are fast hyper offensive mons and that makes up a large portion of the metagame, also remember that some of the bulkiest pokemon are also down here, stall is very viable imo to give you an example of very defensive mons in the tier

    1) Tangrowth

    2) Slowking

    3) Steelix

    4) Rhydon (more of a tank but whatevs)

    5) Weezing (despite being nu)

    6) Cofagrigus

    7) Mandibuzz

    8) Munchlax

    9) Dusknoir

    10) Hariyama

    this isnt even all of them, there are plenty of defensive threats out there, Quaggy stops set-up sweepers, especially on the physical side. Drapion has a specially defensive toxic spiker set, Hell even qwifish and rotom-c can take advantage of their resistances and defensive stats or ability (intimidate qwilfish is pretty good) to defend for a while, theres no shortage of hazard setters or phazers either. Pokemon such as omastar, steelix, rhydon, qwilfish, and drapion are all defensive pokemon to set up hazards while mandibuzz, munchlax, and hariyama are all excellent phazers on a stall team, for spinblockers we have dusknoir and cofagrigus, both of which are perfectly good pokemon that can be used on a stall team viably. We even have natu to combat opposing stall (saw one on the ladder and it did its job well, its a threat that people dont see coming). As a stall / bulky offense player myself who has gotten high on the ladder, i can say that stall is definatley still viable, possibly even more so cause despite being an asset to stall, sableye was stall's worst enemy.

    on a different note, Volturning offense is amazing in ru, you can run 5 u-turners/volt switchers and natu, for example a good team is below:


    a 252/212/44 speed natu reaches 284/294/189 defenses not really bulky for an eviolite pokemon, but along with roost it can take a stray hit.

    it doesnt hurt that natu actually gets u-turn itself, Seriously, try out natu, it works.
  13. RotatingAtom


    Sep 24, 2010
    Honchkrow is by no means compareable to Krookodile. No. Just because they're both part (!) Dark-type and have access to Moxie, they're not related in so many ways that you can assume if one is broken, the other one is as well.

    Honchkrow is really really good, no questions, but I'm not sure at this point wether it's broken or not. Further laddering with / against it will tell. I think his case would be a lot clearer if Moxie was legal with Heat Wave and Superpower; thank god it's not.

    On the topic of Sceptile, however:
    What you said there makes me think you fought the team I'm currently building + testing.
    You're right, Sceptile with the AcroBling-SD-Unburden set is super-strong against the metagame at the moment once it is all set up, but the problem lies right there: You a) only have ONE shot at setting up and sweeping and b) creating circumstances under which you can safely set up a Swords Dance and use Acrobatics to double your speed is very tough.
    Also, Earthquake > Brick Break. Steelix is a bitch.
    It's also hard to decide how much Speed you wanna run - Adamant has the power it needs with 85 base Atk, but without Jolly, you get outsped by a lot of Pokémon you're supposed to be faster than. I personally run Adamant with enough speed to outrun +speed base 95s before Unburden, but I might have to go a little higher.

    Anothing thing I want to bring up that's partly related to this (my team is weak to it): Durant.
    Durant, while I do NOT want to say it's broken, is very very good. Base 109 speed is super trollish, and he has all the right moves he needs for coverage (Fire Types? Get outta here, I'm faster and I have Rock Slide / Stone Edge). The only major downfall he has is that he absolutely needs Hone Claws to be effective - without it, he lacks enough power and your sweep might come to an early end because you suddenly miss a move with originally 100% accuracy.
    Btw, it's funny to check Durant with Scarf Heatmor for the lulz, but it's not funny how Heatmor NEEDS the freaking Scarf to be a check to a Pokémon he is supposed to stomp into the ground just by their natural relation.

    I'm also surprised I have yet to run into a SmashPass team; but that also means I don't have an oppinion on that yet. We'll see.

    Last thing for now: Eviolite Natu is fail. Switch into a resisted move, take 30% + possibly 25% from SR? No thanks. Xatu needs to drop, use it less pls.
  14. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

    Jun 26, 2010
    The thing with Durant is that its base HP is so low that almost any hit will do a lot of damage so something like Steelix can wall it (bar Dig but really) and then do quite a bit of damage with Earthquake.

    Also completely agreeing with Omicron's statement that defensive Omastar is underrated. Its amazingly good at what it does which is lay hazards and sponge hits. One of the best checks to Honchkrow as long as it doens't Superpower or Hp Grass you.

    And use Swellow people. Seriously good once certain things are removed. (Hint Dugtrio and a Spinner)
  15. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Oct 23, 2009
    My thoughts exactly. Medicham really was shut down by the heavy presence of Salebeye and Alakazam, pretty much negating its main appeal. Now that they're gone, the only real Ghosts left are Cofagrigus, Misdreavus (hate this things -.-), and Rotom, making HJK spam that much easier. Further, with Sableye gone, Honchkrow has to worry less about burns and killing Sableye and can return to its main utility, whether it be used as a SubKrow, MixKrow or Pursuit Krow.

    I'm interested in how Mantine will fare in this metagame. When Sableye ans Alakazam were first released te meta sort of shifted away from the FWG-centric metagame it had been prior to their release (somewhat exaggerated), and with their banning I think it will return to that base, along with the defenseive normal types that appeared. As Mantine was the Pokemon I first theorymonned as the best replacement to Gastrodon after its tiering shift I am hopeful that it can make an impact on the metagame.

    I am also curious to see if fighters in general will do with Sableye gone. Throw a pair of Scarfed HJK users, a Banded Pursuiter, and a Pursuit Honchkrow and there is some potential for pain.

    On the topic of Lilligant, in my experience I haven't had too much issue with it, however this is likely due to my balenced team that can either kill it before it sets up or laugh at it with Cryogoboss. However, I can definately see how it could be difficult to handle for more defensively inclined teams, particularly those without Munchlax, or for fully offensive teams. If Lilligant can find a weak link in the offensive combos its pretty clear that it can go to work. However, I think that its role might best be suited as a support sweeper if it starts gaining in popularity. As in the upper tiers, it can provide huge utility, espescially to Sun teams, by bluffing a Quiver Dance sweeper set, and then when its about to go down rejuvenating a companion sweeper with Healing Wish. I can see this as being particulalry deadly for teams that lack several strong counters to Sun teams.

    On that note, what have people found to be effective checks and counters for Sun teams? The most obvious of these of course are Flash Fire users and bulky Fire types such as Moltres who can then abuse the Sun themselves but aside from those what have people found to be surprisingly effective in countering Sun?
  16. marilli

    marilli two, but one.
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    Nov 26, 2010
    If you want a full-out counter, then something like Altaria or Specially Defensive Flareon (which also counters hail) is the way to go--but really their usefulness just starts dropping from there. Another way is just flat-out denying the sun the first place, with something like Murkrow. I mean, he's not super bulky, but usually Sun Abuse teams have 2-3 setters that are completely unable to attack, allowing you to get those calm minds up to defend against strong Fire Blasts--and the only common offensive Sun Setter is something like Exeggutor, which gets flat-out walled.

    Murkrow @ Eviolite
    252 HP / 252 Def Bold
    -Calm Mind
    -Hidden Power (Flying)

    Completely murders stall teams as usual, not on the analysis but arguably just as good as the Perish Trap set-- I think similar set was running around in LC when Murkrow wasn't banned there yet.

    Also, other than Sun, Rain, and SmashPass what other mayhaps-broken playstyles do you think deserve a second look?
  17. Paradox


    Mar 1, 2010
    Definitely do not underestimate Natu. First of all, if Natu is on your team Stealth Rock will not be up 95% of the time, period. Natu singlehandedly beats almost every single Stealth Rocker as well as quite a few spikers like Qwilfish and Ferroseed. Natu shouldn't be used as a wall, it is a fantastic utility Pokemon that will keep hazards off your side of the field and is a great choice for an offensive team, especially with 4x weak 'mons like Scyther and Moltres. MoltenKyurem posted my team above, and it has done quite well largely due to Natu's presence. Give the little guy a try, my set is:

    Natu @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magic Mirror
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Roost
    - Night Shade
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    Night Shade and Toxic are both necessary to beat the majority of Hazard layers (Steelix, Qwilfish, etc ignore Toxic while stuff like Claydol or Omastar can't be dealt with without it) while Protect is very useful for scouting Choiced attacks (especially Pursuit) and stalling, and Roost is mandatory to beat a number of Pokemon that hit Flying-types for super-effective damage.

    The EV spread maximizes defence which is most helpful for the most threats while giving enough speed to outrun Claydol, letting Natu Roost on its Ice Beams.
  18. HuntSaboteur


    Aug 19, 2010
    Actually, yes, yes I did. I do remember fighting RotatingAtom. Twice. And winning.

    Re: Honchkrow and Krookodile, they are both physical sweepers that are part dark-type. On the other hand, Krow is better as it has Sucker Punch. EQ=BB. But you're right, I might have been pushing things a bit with the comparison.

    Natu is incredibly rare. Just because it has Magic Mirror doesn't make it the next Espeon. Psychic/Flying is rubbish as far as defensive typing goes. It is countered by, coincidentally, Krookodile.

    Also, Medicham? Seriously? It doesn't have enough speed to do anything (80 is rubbish) and is 1HKOd by Entei. And, for that matter, Medicham also faces a problem when it comes to Honchkrow. It might do something some day, but not now. It's outclassed by Reckless Hitmonlee, for instance.
  19. waterwarrior


    Oct 20, 2010
    @paradox: what do you mean it beats all SR users? Rhydon, Aggron, and Omastar have no problem with it, and those are only Rock types. Practically anything with a sliver of offensive presence beats Natu. Granted, it beats Ferroseed, but that's really the extent of Natu's usefulness.

    @hunt there's a reason 90% of Medicham's are Scarfed. Why? Because its the best Medicham. Unless you run Scarf Entei, Cham beats it. And Medicham has Zen Headbutt as STAB, while Hitmonlee only has HJK.
  20. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Jul 6, 2009
    Scarf Medicham + LO Hitmonlee + a Pursuit user. Man is that an effective attacking core. However, I intend to make a team around Spikestacking Offence, to see if it works out. I though of a defensive core of Qwilfish and Claydol, then Moltres and Swellow to take advantage of Spikes, then a SubSplit Rotom for SpinBlocking, and as a generally great Pokemon. Having a bit of trouble coming up with a last member, any suggestions? Preferably something Scarfed
  21. Xephyr


    Mar 7, 2009
    There have too been people using SmashPass teams! I got to like 4 on the ladder in a day in the early days in RU. I even posted an RMT of it ._.

    Anyway, I'm going to get back into this tier now that Sableye's gone. Stupid bastard and his will-o-wisps always ruining my Sceptiles and the like. Now SD Unburden Sceptile can thrive like it deserves to.
  22. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Sep 30, 2010
    I have been seeing some teams with Smash Pass, but to be honest, they have mostly been underwhelming. No matter how much weaker the offense here is than in higher tiers, the SmashPassers still are not very strong and still can't take much of a hit. Additionally, most of the receivers are frail and many rely on life orb making them easy to take down with some priority. Sure, Smash Pass can work and certainly is dangerous, but is not all that amazing.

    As for Honchkrow, it is certainly a major threat. It has great coverage and good power. It does just about everything right. However I don't think it is over powering. It is fairly frail and slow, meaning anything that is faster and can shrug off a Sucker Punch can take it down.

    Finally, as for Lilligant, I never see that thing, and for good reason. It is mediocre at best. Quiver Dance is great, but it really does not have the movepool to abuse it. It can be a decent sweeper, but is not going to take the tier by storm. To be honest, I think the most fearsome QD user is Masquerain. Intimidate lets it set up on many physical pokemon, but more importantly, it has Baton Pass. It might not be amazing itself, but as I'm sure you remember with Venomoth, if you let it pass off those boost to a good sweeper, you might as well just say gg. It certainly has downsides, especially in its typing, but with some team support, it can certainly overcome that. It might not be as dominant as it is can be down in NU, but it is one of those Pokemon that if you let it have a free turn, it may very well lead to your defeat.
  23. Xephyr


    Mar 7, 2009
    Honchkrow is actually probably the best receiver of a SmashPass in the tier right now. Mixed Honchkrow with a Shell Smash is almost impossible to wall. Everything in the tier will be 2HKO'd by nightslash/bravebird/heatwave/hpgrass
  24. DTC

    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus

    May 8, 2011
    80 base speed is rubbish sweeper standards, but Medicham is a wall-breaker. Also, please actually use the 2 before making a comparison. Medicham hits a lot harder then Hitmonlee and isn't countered by anything, other then Uxie who sets up screens on it. Hitmonlee is great and all, but it doesn't really have any advantages over Medicham. Another thing, Entei is OHKO'd by Band HJK. He can't switch in, therefore he is a revenge killer.
  25. Paradox


    Mar 1, 2010
    I've never seen a SR Aggron so I won't touch that, but Natu can stall out Rhydon's Stone Edge's no problem as long as you don't switch in on one (though that does make Rhydon the most troublesome Stealth Rocker to deal with, good thing its not too common) and Omastar's Ice Beam does around 80%, meaning you can Roost on it all day and use Toxic when you have enough health. Omastar can give you trouble if it burns you with Scald to be fair, but it'll still usually lose to Toxic damage.

    Natu usually beats every common user of Rocks that I've encountered apart from Clefable. The only times I've really had rocks up against my team is from dumb misplays where I sacked Natu or predicted incorrectly which 'mon carried SR on the opponents team. If you don't believe me you either haven't played with Natu or haven't played with it properly.

    Pursuiters are a problem, they require good prediction, but Protect helps – Natu takes under 50% from Krookodile if it stays in and can survive Scyther's Pursuit at near-full health. Does make U-turn quite viable over Toxic though.
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