np: RU Stage 5 - Dark Side of the Moon

[Rakan]

I've like, never seen a Sawsbuck, ever lol

I've definitely seen people have great success with stall teams - I just haven't figured out how to use them well yet xD

I've also noticed a lack of HO teams up near the top of the ladder; for example, I can easily ladder to about 1200 or so with a simple HO team, but after that, it becomes more difficult to get further. Perhaps I shall try out stall sometime soon.

 

[Avira]

As a stall player myself, I wouldn't consider it (stall) the ideal way to ladder at the top. There is a reason why stall is not particularly common in RU. There are so many threats that your options in dealing with the threats can be quite predictable and exploitable (And I think this can only get worse in all tiers as more games are released). Stall is certainly viable, but I think that balanced and offensive teams are both superior for reliable laddering as seen by Silent Verse and ShakeItUp's consistency in the last couple of rounds.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm having a difficult time checking Sawsbuck, outside of running Cofagrigous. How do you guys deal with that monstrosity? It runs through almost every conceivable check I can think of (Entei is slower & gets stomped by nature power, ferroseed is fodder)

Its really strong.

EDIT: Durant's nice, good call on that one. Galvuntula hates taking DE's so its a check. Gonna try running either of those pokemon on most of my teams. Hate it hate it hate it.

Ferroseed is not fodder... It deals 41.72 - 49% to Sawsbuck with Gyro Ball, and takes 41.78 - 49.31% from Jolly LO Jump Kick, which is not a 2hko even after SR most of the times.
Also every time Sawsbuck attacks it is losing 22,5% health, so after 3 hits, which he will need to kill you, he will have lost 67,5% health, which is a ko with Gyro Ball factored in. If you add Protect in the scenario, which makes Sawsbuck lose half its health, you see that the battle is not really in his favour.
And Jump Kick is not standart on Sawsbuck, since Nature Power is also a very good option, for hitting Entei, Drapion and Qwilfish harder than anything else, and being slightly stronger than Jump Kick against Rock and Steel types.
Not saying that Ferroseed counters Sawsbuck, but it is a very good check, and far from being fodder for him.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

A good sun team can pretty much power through most teams out there. Since sun wasn't very dominant before most teams are not prepared for the Grass/Fire/(filler)/Growth combo out there. All you need to do is find out which pokemon can best plow through your opponents team first for your remaining sweepers to finish the job. A few things like Flareon, Munchlax, and Moltres do a decent job of stopping some sun sweepers but you would likely need a combination of sun counters to cover all the possibilities(Sawsbusk, Lilligant, Shiftry, Victribell, etc). So how do you guys deal with sun? The best method ive seen is having one good sun counter+a decent amount of priority to win. If there is a prankster user, substitute/protect stall is nearly impossible to pull off.

 

[spuds4ever]

I can honestly say I've never bumped into a sun team. I think the reason might be that there are a lot of stuff that counter it well that are common, like moltres, entei, heck, even typhlosion which usually give sun a hard time on their own. Whimsicott is really the only viable prankster in RU, volbeat and murkrow just struggle to survive against the sheer power of the stuff rampaging all over RU.

Though to be honest, I think it's just as viable as rain which can work really well. Definetely an under-rated play-style.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

I hope you know that Sawsbuck has Nature Power(earthquake) to destroy Entei and Typhlosion, Shiftry has the same thing, and I dont expect any of the three fire types you mentioned to stand a chance(as in switch in to tank a hit) against a Modest Solar Powered Scarf Fire Blast in the Sun from a Charizard. Likely you would only have one of the three anyways, what do you do when that one poke goes down? Its a lot more threatening than rain imo

 

[PK Gaming]

Ferroseed is not fodder... It deals 41.72 - 49% to Sawsbuck with Gyro Ball, and takes 41.78 - 49.31% from Jolly LO Jump Kick, which is not a 2hko even after SR most of the times.
Also every time Sawsbuck attacks it is losing 22,5% health, so after 3 hits, which he will need to kill you, he will have lost 67,5% health, which is a ko with Gyro Ball factored in. If you add Protect in the scenario, which makes Sawsbuck lose half its health, you see that the battle is not really in his favour.
And Jump Kick is not standart on Sawsbuck, since Nature Power is also a very good option, for hitting Entei, Drapion and Qwilfish harder than anything else, and being slightly stronger than Jump Kick against Rock and Steel types.
Not saying that Ferroseed counters Sawsbuck, but it is a very good check, and far from being fodder for him.

I never said anything ferroseed countering Sawsbuck I was just referring to the fact thats its easily beaten. Its not that good of a pokemon in the first place...

(and for the love of god, use the enter button)

 

[alexwolf]

I never said anything ferroseed countering Sawsbuck I was just referring to the fact thats its easily beaten. Its not that good of a pokemon in the first place...

(and for the love of god, use the enter button)

You said that Ferroseed is fodder, and you were talking about Sawsbuck, so i logically assumed that you were saying that it is fodder for Sawsbuck.

Also what about the Enter button?

 

[sheniqua]

I have tried out sun before, and i have never really been successful at all. It seems to me like all they have to do is switch to a honchkrow or absol and you lose. How are sun teams supposed to out priority these guys or live sucker punches?

 

[MegaKick]

I have tried out sun before, and i have never really been successful at all. It seems to me like all they have to do is switch to a honchkrow or absol and you lose. How are sun teams supposed to out priority these guys or live sucker punches?

Uh, you pack a counter to them like rhydon or something. Just beacause you use a sun team doesnt mean you have to carry 6 sweepers. You also need to have at least 2 support Pokemon

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Shiftry for Suckerpunches and it never hurts to just throw substitute on one of the sweepers and if your at full health you are probably going to live a sucker punch. But you are right though, suckerpunch poses a pretty big problem. Usually what i faced had 3 sun sweepers 2 sun setupers and 1 thing to deal with Suckerpunchers. Even with that, Honchkrow+a good wall against sun(munchlax/Clefable) usually stops all sun shenanigans.

 

[Double01]

Sun teams can be very effective and sun teams have some of the deadliest sweeper in the tier while in the sun (victreebel or charizard you pick). But the main problem I have with sun teams is the fraility of most of the sweepers with the exception of tangrowth. Also pratically everyone is running TR cofagrigus which doesn't help the sun. My other issue with the team is just the pokes ineffectiveness outside of the sun. You basically only have 5 to 6 turns to sweep before you become very slow. Even with the 6 turns to sweep it can easily die due to many priority users such as entei, hitmon's and feraligatr.

Overall sun can be a very effective playing style but usually requires screens support so it doesn't get koed on the switch in.

 

[alexwolf]

^What Double said. Most sun sweepers tend to under-perform outside of sun, and this is a plus that rain has over sun.

Rain teams can use sweepers like Kabutops and Omastar, which can perform very good even outside of rain.

 

[spuds4ever]

^What Double said. Most sun sweepers tend to under-perform outside of sun, and this is a plus that rain has over sun.

Rain teams can use sweepers like Kabutops and Omastar, which can perform very good even outside of rain.

I agree. I think the best way to get around this problem is by using walls/pivots which know scouting moves, like gligar and rotom-c, to create a safe switch for a sweeper (just make sure you don't run any speed EVs). Using this method, and keeping rocks off the field, specszard could grab a kill very easily. Not even the most prominent special wall in the tier with a fire resist, munchlax, survives a 2HKO from specszard in the sun, something which no rain sweeper can boast.

 

[complete legitimacy]

How did Gallade get underrated again? Screw Honchkrow, this is definitely more comparable to 4th gen Salamence. Gallade has two very good sets it can run, Bulk Up destroys offense, and Swords Dance destroys stall. Balance is not necessarily destroyed by either, but it takes some heavy hits in the process.

While it's 8th in usage, it's 40th in 1200+ usage. Why are people not using Gallade in the higher part of the ladder?

 

[D4RR3N]

How did Gallade get underrated again? Screw Honchkrow, this is definitely more comparable to 4th gen Salamence. Gallade has two very good sets it can run, Bulk Up destroys offense, and Swords Dance destroys stall. Balance is not necessarily destroyed by either, but it takes some heavy hits in the process.

While it's 8th in usage, it's 40th in 1200+ usage. Why are people not using Gallade in the higher part of the ladder?

people in the higher part of the ladder are usually more prepared for gallade, so pulling off a gallade sweep would be harder.

 

[Honko]

Yeah, it's the same reason why Honchkrow is so low on the 1200 stats.

 

[DittoCrow]

Gallade also probably went down to the increase in the usage of Cofagrigus. Cofagrigus is definately the best Ghost in RU because the TR + NP set is so effective. It's able to come in on the most common Rapid Spinner and get a free turn to set up. It's also better than Spiritomb because it won't be weak to Drain Punch after Foresight. There are only a few counters, and beating it requires constant pressure. Cofagrigus was discussed on the other page, but since I posted about it I will say that it can be considered in the top 5 best Pokemon in RU.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Gallade also probably went down to the increase in the usage of Cofagrigus. Cofagrigus is definately the best Ghost in RU because the TR + NP set is so effective. It's able to come in on the most common Rapid Spinner and get a free turn to set up. It's also better than Spiritomb because it won't be weak to Drain Punch after Foresight. There are only a few counters, and beating it requires constant pressure. Cofagrigus was discussed on the other page, but since I posted about it I will say that it can be considered in the top 5 best Pokemon in RU.

While I agree with you on Cofagrigus, Swords Dance Gallade easily beats it, as it runs Night Slash to give great coverage alongside Close Combat. While certain Pokemon can beat one Gallade set, almost nothing can consistently beat both of its sets. And if you guess wrong as to which set it's running, you're bound to lose at least one Pokemon.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

While I agree with you on Cofagrigus, Swords Dance Gallade easily beats it, as it runs Night Slash to give great coverage alongside Close Combat. While certain Pokemon can beat one Gallade set, almost nothing can consistently beat both of its sets. And if you guess wrong as to which set it's running, you're bound to lose at least one Pokemon.

SD set lacks speed, while it may be able to destroy more bulky teams pokemon like moltres, entei, Leaf storm sceptile(after a CC spdef drop) can easily come in to revenge kill it. You also have to hope that nothing attacks you while you set up the SD. Lack of immunity to statuses doesn't help it either. I do think it should be used more often though since i've used SD gallade before and it does work on alot of teams but that was before the rise of cofagrigus.

Another thing is Hitmonchan is the number 1 used pokemon for those above 1200, therefore fitting another fighting type like gallade in is hard to do for most teams.

 

[D4RR3N]

SD set lacks speed, while it may be able to destroy more bulky teams pokemon like moltres, entei, Leaf storm sceptile(after a CC spdef drop) can easily come in to revenge kill it. You also have to hope that nothing attacks you while you set up the SD. Lack of immunity to statuses doesn't help it either. I do think it should be used more often though since i've used SD gallade before and it does work on alot of teams but that was before the rise of cofagrigus.

Another thing is Hitmonchan is the number 1 used pokemon for those above 1200, therefore fitting another fighting type like gallade in is hard to do for most teams.

In addition to that, Gallade can't set up on Cofagrigus at all. Shadow Ball hits it really hard as SD Gallades usually doesnt carry much EVs in HP and Sp Def. and iirc, +2 Night slash from LO Gallade would always fail to one shot Cofagrigus, bar crits.

Something I've found being pretty good is Guts Hariyama. After a Guts boost, nothing can really switch into it safely, let alone Qwilfish. Guts boosted Close Combat hits really hard, 2hkoing even physically defensive walls such as Tangrowth. The biggest letdown of Hariyama is his base 50 speed though, which often stops him from sweeping. But yeah, I think it's something you guys should really try out.

 

[The Goddamn Batman]

I know this has come up before, but seriously, Trick Room is incredibly difficult to face. There is no chance for a hyper-offensive team to break through the extremely bulky attackers of Trick Room (Cofagrigus, Aggron, Druddigon, etc.). Does anyone else feel that the metagame would be better without Trick Room? Also, if the general consensus is that Trick Room does not make the metagame unfair, how do all of you check/counter the strategy?

 

[alexwolf]

In addition to that, Gallade can't set up on Cofagrigus at all. Shadow Ball hits it really hard as SD Gallades usually doesnt carry much EVs in HP and Sp Def. and iirc, +2 Night slash from LO Gallade would always fail to one shot Cofagrigus, bar crits.

Something I've found being pretty good is Guts Hariyama. After a Guts boost, nothing can really switch into it safely, let alone Qwilfish. Guts boosted Close Combat hits really hard, 2hkoing even physically defensive walls such as Tangrowth. The biggest letdown of Hariyama is his base 50 speed though, which often stops him from sweeping. But yeah, I think it's something you guys should really try out.

Adamant LO Gallade does 96% damage minimum at +2 to TR Cofagrigus, which is a OHKO after SR.

 

[D4RR3N]

I know this has come up before, but seriously, Trick Room is incredibly difficult to face. There is no chance for a hyper-offensive team to break through the extremely bulky attackers of Trick Room (Cofagrigus, Aggron, Druddigon, etc.). Does anyone else feel that the metagame would be better without Trick Room? Also, if the general consensus is that Trick Room does not make the metagame unfair, how do all of you check/counter the strategy?

Trick Room teams are really good, but it surely doesnt make the metagame unfair, or broken. Other then playing smartly, the best way to take out Trick Room is using stall. A simple combo of Steelix/Mandibuzz/Munchlax which can be seen on alot of stall teams pretty much handles all of the vialable Trick Roomer abusers around.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Speaking of stall, I'm seeing a lot of it on the ladder recently. I'm not sure if this is just to counter Trick Room, or if it just happened by itself.