np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Digital Love - Genesect is now banned

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#26
I’ve been waiting for this suspect for quite sometime. Any way’s here’s my thoughts on the suspect. Friendly warning its 1016 words long.

Let me start off by saying that Genesect is a very powerful and scary threat in the current overused metagame. Genesect is the equivalent of the perfect offensive Pokemon have almost 0 flaws and those very few flaws don’t exactly hurt it much. While there’s nothing wrong with being the perfect offensive Pokemon there are several reasons why its too good for OU. I feel like even with some of the new Pokemon such as Toxapex, Heatran, Mega Venusaur and Marowak-Alola its still not enough for Genesect to be called balanced, because Genesect has a set to beat every one of those listed Pokemon (one of the main issues with Genesect). To start my reasoning why Genesect in my eyes Is broken. I’m going to list the pros and cons of Genesect first.

Pros:

-Very high attacking stats on both sides of the spectrum allowing it to go mixed

-Ideal defensive typing on an offensive Pokemon

- Passable bulk to go with its typing

-Huge offensive move pool

-Decently fast

-Can boost Speed to make up for its decent base speed

-Will always have +1 attack or +1 special attack

-Has strong priority

-Can “bluff” certain sets by changing it to a shiny

-Very versatile

-Has a very easy time grabbing momentum

-Has the strongest U-turn in the Overused tier

Cons:

-4x weak to fire type moves (Not like any good Genesect user’s letting it take one anyways)

-Choice sets are often walled by the Pokemon mentioned above (Genesect just U-turn’s out on them)


Other then that Genesect has almost next to no cons which further proves my point it’s the ideal offensive Pokemon. As far as Genesects sets go you have the two main sets which are the most common. These two sets are Choice scarf and choice band. The choice scarf set while not the best set gives you a very fast choice scarfer only out sped by scarf Keldeo (mediocre currently), Scarf latios (gene only fears Hidden Power Fire), and Scarf Pheromosa. Marowak-Alola, Toxapex and Heatran almost always counters this set, Toxapex and Heatran but really Genesect just U-turn’s on them or can surprise Toxapex with Thunderbolt. Again, thanks to Genesects Download ability it always comes in at +1 atk/SpA so it further bolsters its cleaning ability vs teams. Choice band sets have Similar issues but this set is very strong because you can potentially be up against a +2 Atk Genesect assuming it picks up the boost. Having strong priority also helps make up for gene’s speed. Then we have the other sets which can seriously mess up and surprise the opponent because of how they take advantage of Genesects large move pool. These sets include Expert belt, Rock polish, Shift gear and choice specs. Expert belt sets aim to lure in the common Genesect switch ins such as running Hidden Power ground to Marowak-A and Heatran. This set is also capable of bluffing a choice set because it can run U-turn which is one of the bigger issues with Genesect: The unpredictability. Other then that expect belt can run Thundebolt, ice beam, flamethrower and iron head which are standard. Then you have more obscure options such as Giga drain to lure in things such as Quagsire or Rotom-Wash. The rock polish set is one of the better sets currently and has seen a lot of usage on rain teams due to how it can abuse Rain boosted Techno blast water. This set can pretty much break 3 of the more common Genesect switch ins being Toxapex, Heatran and Marowak-A. It also functions outside of rain (naturally without techno blast) and still has decent cleaning potential. The shift gear set is much worse however but still a solid set due to hitting Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn and other steels with blaze kick while Revenge killing things with extreme speed. Then you have the choice specs set. It works in a similar manor to the CB set which gives you the equivalent of +2 SpA assuming you grab the special attack boost. As I mentioned before you never really know what set Genesect is running until it gives away a important move which provides Genesect with a ton of luring and bluff potential so it’s a guessing game until they reveal a move a choice set normally never runs or reveals to not be choice locked. This is in a way like how Landorus-Incarnate was in ORAS but to a much bigger extent. Yes, Genesect has counters and checks but can simply U-turn out vs them or on the incoming switch hitting them for chip damage so you don’t even lose momentum vs them.

With that said I wanted to say my thoughts on one reason for keeping Genesect that I remember someone saying a while ago. This is “Banning Genesect will turn sun and moon into ORAS and bring back more bulky teams”. Banning Genesect wont revert Sun and moon to another ORAS. Its physically impossible for that to happen because we have Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele and even Tapu Fini and some of the Ultra beasts to deal with all the fat bulky offense and stall teams that were in ORAS. You even have z-move nukes that absolutely destroy Defensive Pokemon such as Clefable. If anything, banning Genesect means that offense wont be as prominent anymore which exactly what happens in a metagame where Genesect is allowed in. Also, keep in mind we still have Pokemon such as Hoopa-Unbound and Greninja.

The reason to ban Genesect is because of how its very strong and really has no bad matchups because if its not in favour of the current situation it just U-turns out. As I mentioned before it’s the Ideal offensive Pokemon and has no real flaws. Having checks and counters might mean you can deal with Genesect but when those checks and counters only deal with specific sets you have a problem because you might find you’re Heatran baited in and removed by an expert belt Genesect for example. I get its fun to use Genesect because of how versatile and strong it is but being fun is not a valid reason to keep something in a tier if its broken. With that said I think Genesect needs to be Banned.
 
#27
Reading is a skill which we invest many years into, dear psVoltage. I think it was quite clear I referred to genesect only from the standpoint of stall. Good user blarghfarghl's post was made to seem like Genesect himself is a wallbreaker, which unfortunately is a wronghood which cannot even be considered 'misconceived'. Genesect is in fact nowhere close to a wallbreaker. What it brings in after isn't of great importance, unless you claim that Landorus-T or any other Uturner is broken based on the merit of what their switch brings in.

The standard reply to that is that Genesect does about two times as much damage with U-Turn since it has STAB and a potential Download boost. Also Genesect's movepool threatens more things, so a conservative player would switch something out, allowing the Genesect user to gain momentum.

The question is whether the meta has less Pokemon that Genesect could threaten with its coverage moves or U-Turn (and/or as a taboo has some broken Pokemon that it could threaten). (It is "taboo" since it is essentially a "broken" checking "broken" argument, but checking Tapu Lele is a good thing for me!)

For what its worth, specially defensive Celesteela is a good "check" for Genesect (i.e. Genesect cannot come in on it and threaten it if Genesect gets a free switch).

252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celesteela: 146-174 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Scarf Genesect does threaten offense, but it is not so good against stall, but one may say that the viability of Scarf Genesect is what makes the other Genesect more insidious since it could surprise a more defensively oriented team. I am interested in what a stall player would say about playing against Choice Band Genesect.


The problem is a lot of people do crazy things like it such as bluffing. A lot of the lower leveled players expect Choice Scarf when it isn't even its best set. Mixed Gene is the elephant in the room here because it can bypass one of its bigger checks - Heatran. Furthermore, Genesect + Dugtrio is a very solid combo as Genesect can simply U-turn over to Dugtrio to have Dugtrio trap and make Heatran useless in the process. Genesect with Life Orb and Expert Belt have much more freedom on wreaking havoc against teams. This is especially true with Expert Belt because it can simply attempt to bluff Choice sets. As some users even witnessed they'll go as far as using the Event Genesect just to create a mind game out of you, too.
Yes, Genesect is dangerous with Dugtrio. I wonder to what extent Dugtrio is more viable because of its offensive boost, or that there are more threats in the metagame that it could check. Trapping itself is a controversial issue in OU, which is why Shadow Tag was banned.

I don't remember Dugtrio being a huge factor for the banning of Genesect last gen.
 
#28
Genesects versatility and access to u-turn are what make it a threat. It gains momenturm for your team or it can punch holes in the opposing team before switching out to a check. It can't be trapped due to U-turn so that makes Dugtrio and Magnazone invalid. It only takes super effective damage from fire, which isn't a very common typeing this gen and it can counter those with hp ground/douse drive. There are no safe switch ins and no real counters. Can it be walled? of course it can, but only after you know what set its running and even then its not guranteed that you will have one of a handfull of walls that can counter/wall it. Celesteela could probably do the job, but only if it isn't running thunderbolt, blaze kick, flamethrower, hp fire, hp electric, etc... which is highly unlikely that it doesn't have at least one of those. Not to mention the remaining 5 team mates it has that have to be delt with that can cover any of its weakness or flaws. If you have to run a check for a specific mon on every team you make or resort to a specific playstyle just to counter one mon that is so predomenant then that mon (Genesect) is too over centralizing and very unhealthy for the meta. The same reason for Banning Ageslash works for Genesect; It's overcentralizing, plays mind games, and can be played offensivly or to a lesser extent defensivly since it can safely switch in on just about everything baring fire, ghost, ground, dark, and rock all of which deal neutral and even with stab can't K.O. it (barring fire) without a good deal of previous damage. I would vote to ban it, but I'm not high enough rank and I don't really have much time to spare for increasing my rank right now, but my point remains valid (the underlined portion).

arguing to keep it unbanned just because your favored playstyle works against it or because you know a trick or two to dealing with it is not a valid reason to keep it in the meta when it threatens the vast majority of the meta and overcentralizes it. Sorry if thats on the rude side, but its more of a counter argument if anything and is not meant to be taken as offensive or an attack in anyway. I am of the opinion that those types of arguments are not valid arguments that is all and nothing more.
I'm not trying to attack you either but I feel there are some very serious flaws in your arguments. "It has no safe switch-ins and no real counters" ... is neither a fair or accurate statement. The CB set probably gained the greatest number of checks and counters than any of its other sets (and I really hate that we're still talking about this), the Choice Scarf set is comparatively its worst set and the easiest to outplay, and while LO "wallbreaker" is really the only set that anyone should be basing an opinion on right now, you seemingly gain the best of both worlds in going mixed at the cost of being far more easy to revenge-kill, you're almost definitely not running LO U-turn (subjective, but imo this is not ideal), and you're even easier to wear down through chip, hazards and recoil. I don't know why you have singled out Celesteela as the only pokemon capable of doing this -- I can name you like, 5-6 pokemon that are way better at helping you to scout its sets than this. If anything, this argument is undermined by the objective fact that Genesect has gained several checks that did not exist or did not perform similar functions in past generations as they do now. Even so, the very faulty and unreliable argument that a good player uses literally 1 pokemon to check another 1 pokemon is just not valid and it hasn't been for many generations. "Checks and counters" is just one of many ways that something is dealt with or outplayed, and while I'm very aware of the "anything can be revenge-killed" argument, I don't even think that this applies to Genesect. Use the pivots that you have and your assessment of your opponent's team at preview and proceed from there. The minute Genesect clicks any move, if it would really make you more secure in scouting it, run a damage calc, rule out what you can. I can keep going but I feel it would be condescending and that is not my intention, I'm just trying to draw attention to the fact that you've highlighted one small part of a pro-ban argument as your entire reasoning for its ban and I think that's unjustified.

The rest of the underlined part of your post is a bit difficult on my eyes but honestly the gist of what you're saying is that overcentralization is bad, Genesect is centralizing, and as part of our tiering precedent we should treat like cases alike -- except I wholeheartedly disagree this entire premise. Without putting words in anyone's mouth, as a supplement to ABR's argument above it is the position of many anti-ban players that a versatile offensive pivot helps a metagame develop without the need for very specific answers to specific builds. What results is a metagame where you are free to run more creative sets, less-restrictive coverage and avoid the heavy role-compression that strained ORAS. There is a reason why Landorus-T and Latios were on a ton of teams - people relied on blanket answers to mitigate the fact that you could not reasonably prepare for everything. Maybe everyone has already forgotten the (very forgettable) ORAS metagame, but you needed a reliable "bird" check, at least one answer to the trendy-Sableye-stall build of the month, a whopping selection of like 2 good Zard-Y checks, some counterplay to Manaphy and Mega Medicham and a way to pressure Chansey ... etc. In this way, I can argue that Genesect is equally a decentralizing force in a metagame because of the load it takes off of the rest of your team. Aegislash and Genesect are two completely different pokemon who perform entirely different functions, this is a totally erroneous comparison that no person should base their vote on.

Not everyone uses stall? You cant say "He doesn't break walls so he isn't threatening warranting no ban" you even said it yourself your opinion on it isnt terribly valid. Genesect may not break walls by itself but you will never pin it down, and paired with another pokemon it has the potential to break stall by just merely getting something like a tapu lele in.
Defensive Landorus-T can do exactly what you've just said, but I would suspect that you aren't going to call that pokemon broken. Using a pivot to bring in a wallbreaker is a very basic part of playing this game. Many pokemon do this. The fact that Genesect can come in and click u-turn against stall is a reasonable and healthy form of counterplay, and the set with the hardest-hitting U-turn (banded) is the one that is most easily checked. Disagree with this point totally.
Genesect is by far a unique Pokemon in the OU metagame at the moment. Its sheer flexibility is one of the scarier things about it since it can pull a multitude of \sets. Having 99 Speed tier also means it outguns Tapu Lele - which is another big threat at the moment. I think the most predictable and easiest set is Choice Scarf. It's straightforward that it usually will outspeed a lot of Pokemon with the item.

The problem is a lot of people do crazy things like it such as bluffing. A lot of the lower leveled players expect Choice Scarf when it isn't even its best set. Mixed Gene is probably the elephant in the room here because it can bypass one of its bigger checks - Heatran. Furthermore, Genesect + Dugtrio is a very solid combo as Genesect can simply U-turn over to Dugtrio to have Dugtrio trap and make Heatran useless in the process.

I definitely could go into more detail later, but, for now, we'll preface with this. I look forward to this suspect test.
Apologies in advance for using your post as a way to respond to an argument more generally, not specifically you, but the fact that lower-ladder players reflexively expect every non-shiny Genesect to be choice scarf should not be a reason for its ban. It's just lazy scouting. Also, the Genesect + Dugtrio core says more about Dugtrio than it does about Genesect, since I can very readily name a ton of pokemon whose counterplay or available checks are limited because they are Arena-Trapped and removed.
 

Colonel M

Team Yuri
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#29
For those responding to the whole "low ladder analogy", this was not intended to be a reason as to why it should nor should not be banned. Rather, consider it as Genesect often carries Choice Scarf that sometimes players are led into false sense of security more than anything. Genesect is very powerful in that it can bluff a lot between its choice sets and even its regular / shiny form.

My post isn't really to say support or do not support of a ban. Merely to explain what helps make it a threatening Pokemon.

Dugtrio is more or less mentioned as it's a Pokemon that often patches a lot of Genesect's issues as well. Genesect often has flaws, and the thing is it can cheese some of these flaws with only minimal support. Sometimes with moves like Hidden Power Ground it doesn't even have to do that.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#30
Personally I am in favour of a ban, simply because of how versatile it is in combination with how good each and every one of its sets are. Rock Polish is outrageously dangerous, its typing and passable bulk afford opportunity lategame, and download makes it's stupidly powerful, few Pokemon are as threatening with 1 turn of set up. Its Choice Band set has the strongest priority and U-turn in the tier, it's just so devastating to offense and defense alike. Its all out attacker, lure and Choice Specs sets are no joke either, again Download and its movepool make it effortless for it to rip huge holes in teams. I mean, there really are not good counters to Gene. Between Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, Iron Head, Flamethrower, Douse Drive Techno Blast and Thunderbolt pretty much nothing stands up to it. Heatran, Toxapex, Charizard X, Marowak, Mantine, and Chansey all have a decent matchup, but they all can be bypassed with typical coverage attacks from Genesect. It puts immense pressure on defensive teams by threatening to 2HKO anything, it threatens a Choice Scarf very effectively, forcing offensive teams to dance around it. It's a great sweeper, revenge killer, wallbreaker and pivot all in one. There's very little Genesect can not do in an S-rank manner.

If Genesect was only capable of one or two sets, I would not be in favour of removing it. However its complete unpredictability gives the user a greater advantage than just the one set they're using. An advantage that pushes Genesect into the realm of Uber.
 
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#31
I can name you like, 5-6 pokemon that are way better at helping you to scout its sets than this.
genuinely curious about these mons you have in mind, so would you mind telling us all what those are?

i feel like theres people who honestly dont understand how difficult it is to check genesect properly with a correct set scouting. this is the most difficult mon in the entire meta as of now to switch into to eat shit up because it can effectively run a ton of different sets with different coverage that wrecks its most normal checks AND gain momentum against mons that DO check it because it wasnt using the correct move. if you're so sure that an opposing genesect is running one set and then its running another one, ur just gonna lose a mon most of the time.
 

I'm Rick Pickle

BOOM! Big Reveal!
is a Tiering Contributor
#32
Ok, so I’d like to preface this by saying that I’ve deliberately held off on finalising my opinions on a lot of different pokemon in the meta right now. Initially I thought Pheromosa was the most broken thing ever, but actually it’s not quick ban worthy, so I've decided to be more hesitant when looking at the rest of the meta too. When making bans at the start of a new tier, we ought to be somewhat cautious. An example where we could have made a mistake would be near the start of ORAS where a bunch of voters including myself voted to ban Mega Metagross, when actually it was fine, and the meta game just needed to shift a bit to handle it better. Therefore, particularly at this point in the meta, we need to take into account potential metagame changes which haven’t happened yet.

With that being said, I don’t think Genesect is healthy for the tier, even taking into account potential metagame adaptations. I do not have anything against the idea that somebody can point to a pokemon and definitively say “This is the best thing in the tier”, but it has become apparent that it is significantly easier to win when using Genesect than when facing it. A big part of this is the unpredictability that it has. You can make certain guesses based on team preview, but with the large variety of moves and sets at its disposal, there isn’t really a truly safe answer to Genesect. It isn’t just the lack of safe switch-ins, but the fact that Genesect can be an incredible revenge killer and momentum grabber at the same time as breaking. A choice banded set has extreme speed to revenge threats, and hits hard, especially if it gets the attack download boost. Playing around Genesect becomes a tricky process when each individual set has a variety of moves it can run - they might be choice band, but are you sure they don't still have ice beam? Alternatively, you might know they’re life orb, but you can’t safely tell the other moves. Each individual set might have a solid answer or certain drawbacks, but there is a lot of potentially very costly guessing into figuring out what the set is, and what coverage they are running.

However, the kicker is that even when you do know the set, and respond well to Genesect, you don’t come out on top. It u turns, gets off big damage, and maintains momentum. Genesect has decent switch in opportunities, and so it will come in, put big pressure on the opponent, and help your team maintain that pressure. It isn’t absurdly broken, but it is very good at every point in the match. Just as an example, life orb can break early game, and then pick off weakened threats with extreme speed in the late game.

Now I’ve coughed up the whole “There’s nothing specific that makes it too good, but it’s too solid in general” argument before with Mega Metagross, and been disastrously wrong, but I don’t think I’m wrong this time. Genesect’s variety in sets means firstly that it is unpredictable, but also that if the meta does adapt to it, it can adapt back. For instance, suppose Toxapex becomes more common, as it handles most of Genesect’s moves. Well I reckon in that case, we’d see far more Genesect start to run tbolt so Toxapex goes from being a decent answer to a very shaky one.

Genesect might not have any one aspect that is broken about it, but I believe that due to how it is such a massive threat at every point in the game, in every game, that it tilts the skill required in a match, resulting in it being much easier to play with than against. Due to the vast potential adaptations it has, it looks like it will continue to do so in the future too. I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a clear top dog in a metagame, but Genesect is good to the point where it is unhealthy.

Here’s a summary for those who aren’t interested in reading the full post:
  1. We ought to be careful about banning things at the start of the meta
  2. Genesect is very unpredictable, so answers to it change.
  3. Even if you do answer it correctly, it can pivot out with ease, and maintain offensive pressure.
  4. Genesect applies big offensive pressure at every point in the match
  5. Due to 2, 3, and 4, Genesect tilts the skill required, because playing using it is noticeably easier than playing against it.
  6. This is unhealthy for the current meta game.
  7. Genesect has a large variety of adaptations in sets and coverage, so even with a meta game shift, Genesect will have the same effect in future meta games, because it can simply change itself to best suit the metagame.
  8. Therefore, Genesect will never be healthy in a future metagame.
  9. Even while we should take caution at the start of a new metagame, the correct decision is to ban Genesect.
 
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#33
Genesect really is unlike any other pokemon OU has experienced. It contains a certain versatility and unpredictability that is quite outstanding. It can run Scarf, Band, Specs, Life Orb, and Expert belt, while also having access to moves such as U-turn, Iron Head, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice beam, and more. The ability to utilize so many different options makes switching into this pokemon very difficult at times, and you would probably be accurate in saying that there are no 100% full counters to Genesect. Now, while Genesect has amazing versatility and the theoretical ability to kill all of its primary switchins with the appropriate coverage move, this doesn't necessarily make it ban-worthy. If you look at the counterplay that exists for Genesect instead of the raw counters, you'll see that beating it in practice isn't as difficult as it may seem on paper. Additionally, it is crucial to consider the metagame at large and how a ban would affect it when voting in a suspect test. Considering the aforementioned notions, I will be voting Do Not Ban.

Genesect may have no perfect switchins, but it can definitely be beaten in a reasonable way. Firstly, there are many pokemon that can more often than not switch in safely. Pokemon such as Heatran, Marowak-A, Toxapex, and Mantine can switch into all sets besides mixed hpground/tbolt ones. Even something like an Amoonguss comes into and scouts a choiced set handily, and if you figure out its CB then you can use Lando-T as a switchin for example. In general, choiced sets really aren't broken in the slightest as Genesect locked into anything can be abused quite easily. Even U-turn, which many people claim as overwhelming, isn't risk free. If the pokemon that Gene is in vs (let's say Keldeo) isn't bug weak then the pokemon coming into Keld after a U-turn still has to take a hit and Keld wont take that much in the process. Additionally, there are the prevalent Rocky Helmet Ground types, as well as Regen mons like Torn-T that don't mind U-turn at all. So, in terms of pure defensive counterplay, mixed sets with hpground/tbolt are probably the hardest to beat. There is, however, an important tradeoff involved in using such a Genesect set. When Gene is forced to drop a Scarf and even Espeed, it becomes increasingly easier to revenge kill and/or abuse offensively. Considering there's Life Orb recoil and a -def/spdef nature, grouped with a lack of great raw speed, Genesect is beaten by myriad offensive pokemon - examples include Tapu Koko, Greninja, Pheromosa, and the Zards. Another method of beating Gene, which is certainly underutilized at the moment, is that of trapping. In fact, all of Magnet Pull, Pursuit, and Arena Trap can potentially trap the right Gene set. Magnezone traps any choiced Genesect, and can also use scarf to beat mixed ones. Band TTar lives non-downloaded U-turns and Weavile can also trap a slower set. Lastly, CB Dugtrio can pick off a slower Gene that has taken very minor prior damage. So, despite the lack of pure hard counters, there are still many viable countermeasures to Genesect.

From a sort of philosophical standpoint, it is important to assess what we really want from our tiers. Given that this is a new generation for OU and for Smogon as a whole, perhaps we can tweak our understanding of ideal tiering. If you go by the standard current banning philosophy (that I and many others took part in during ORAS), then Genesect can potentially be deemed broken as it is versatile + lacks real counters, or "can beat all styles". However, we have to ask ourselves if banning Genesect improves the metagame, which is the reason we have this tiering in the first place. I, for one, believe that Genesect's influence on the metagame is indeed healthy and should be preserved at all costs. What Genesect does is force a certain creativity and activeness that we would lose with its ban. The mere fact that there are no 100% safe counters means that people need to be creative to beat things, instead of just trying to wall everything. When you have a metagame that revolves around only hard countering things, it becomes increasingly stale and matchup based. With Genesect allowed, and thus the pressure to be more unorthodox or active in beating certain pokemon like Gene, the tier is able to flourish with creativity. One can view this as overcentralization, but the degree to which Gene influences the tier seems less like a hindering force and more like a healthy stimulant.

Going forward, I hope that the OU community is brave enough to experience a metagame where we don't ban pokemon just because they're tough to switch into. There are more factors at play here, and while it may seem difficult to get through at first, it'll be worth it in the end.
I feel like this is a big, flowery statement that really says nothing other than "I like genesect and want it to stay." So.... you're saying that we should tweak our tiering philosophy to let genesect stay because having no perfect switch-ins and greatly skewing the risk vs reward of using it in favor of the genesect user fosters a healthy and creative metagame? On top of that, in the scenarios you're listing about why genesect isn't perfect, the Keldo user, the rocky helmet users, and the tornadus-t user are still taking on far more risk than genesect, and if they don't get totally fucked, their reward is 1/6th damage on genesect

Genesect functions no differently than it has in previous generations and is no less threatening than before. Going through philosophical hoops to justify it being reasonable for the meta rather than successfully demonstrating that past/current arguments about why genesect is unhealthy are wrong suggests that mayyyyybe it's still a problem. Oversimplifying the situation and saying you hope the community is brave enough to experience a metagame where "we don't ban just because they're tough to switch into" is disingenuous, and you're right in that there are more factors at play. We've never just banned things because they're "tough to switch into." We ban things because they impact any given game in a disproportionate way to the trade-off of using them.
 
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Lord Moet

formerly RiCH HOMiE CHRiS
is a Past WCoP Champion
#34
genesect should be banned if not simply because it forces a certain pool of pokemon to be used, which suffocates the tier and stifles any creativity. Arguments could be made that there are checks that can switch in a few times but that's only once you have identified the set it is using. Before that identification though you are forced to switch in every check you have before you can decide which one switches in safely. I bold this because you cannot successfully bring just one check for genesect and expect to win a majority of battles against it. As it went with lando, when you have a versatile pokemon, that needs multiple checks, from a limited pool its hard to make the point that it is healthy to have genesect unbanned any longer.
 
#35
The genesect user exchanges relatively nothing in opportunity cost in exchange for free momentum. Also, genesect's versatility makes it so that many would-be checks for one set cannot check another set. Heatran, Alolawak, etc. would be able to check gene but if it has hp ground they can't. The same goes with other would-be checks and other sets Genesect can run to deal with them. On top of that, even if the other player makes the optimal play by going to the pokemon that can actually check the particular set his opponent is running, the genesect user still "wins" the engagement because he can simply U-Turn out for no loss. If I get reqs, I'll vote Ban.
 
#36
genuinely curious about these mons you have in mind, so would you mind telling us all what those are?

i feel like theres people who honestly dont understand how difficult it is to check genesect properly with a correct set scouting. this is the most difficult mon in the entire meta as of now to switch into to eat shit up because it can effectively run a ton of different sets with different coverage that wrecks its most normal checks AND gain momentum against mons that DO check it because it wasnt using the correct move. if you're so sure that an opposing genesect is running one set and then its running another one, ur just gonna lose a mon most of the time.
The poster who I was responding to cited only Celesteela as an example of how Genesect may be reasonably checked or walled. I don't suspect either of us agree with that given that on every one of its sets, it has at least some fire/electric coverage or a faster u-turn. So in this way, yes, there are at least "five or six" pokemon that can allow you to check Genesect better than Celesteela.

So as not to cop out, though, my point wasn't about how Genesect is checked but rather how it is scouted, and I guess that seems to be the main point of contention that pro-ban users such as yourself find too burdensome and that anti-ban posters find manageable. Fundamentally the difference between "checking" and "scouting" is that if you're checking something, you are reasonably confident that your opponent lacks the tools to outplay your defensive switch-in, whereas when you're scouting, you're assuming that it might have an answer to at least one switch-in that you have, but not to multiple. Analyzing what any rational, non-lower-ladder player would do in any given situation is a fundamental part of being successful in tournament play and at the top of the ladder. I'm not saying this because I think you don't know this already, I'm sure you're very skilled, but if I don't define these terms the way that I have then this debate will be at a stand-still where it is impossible for anti-ban to ever win in a purely-theoretical scenario.

For example, if I say that Toxapex checks many variants of Genesect, you'll say that it's Specs/LO T-Bolt. If I say that Toxapex + Heatran check Genesect, you'll say it's LO Bolt/HP Ground. If I say Toxapex + Amoong + Alolan-Marowak checks Genesect, you'll say it's LO T-bolt/Flamethrower/HP ground. Taking this even further, if I said I'm running Hyper Offense, you'll say you successfully got off a RP or my team has been weakened and Extreme Speed wins. If I said I'm running stall, I really don't know what you would say, because this playstyle is the epitome of the argument I'm trying to make in terms of using more than just one pokemon to check an opposing offensive threat, but I'm sure you'll think of something. But you're neglecting to talk about the turns where Genesect actually does not have the coverage it needs, reveals its item or damage output, or is simply locked into the wrong move, etc. These turns are more valuable than some pro-ban posters are making them out to be.

In an actual game, Genesect is incapable of being everything that the suspect forums thread will inevitably make it out to be, because while it can perform any one role reasonably well for a team, it is usually constrained primarily to that role. Choice Scarf is a cleaner and grabs momentum but it is not a wallbreaker and is the easiest to outplay. Choice Band hits hard but the number of pokemon that can individually manage this set is greater than it has ever been in any past generation (Tox, Mantine, A-Marowak, Mandi, Gastrodon/Seismitoad, Lando-T to an extent, etc.). Expert Belt is an argument that I'm honestly not even sure how to respond to because bluffing and/or luring is neither new nor unique to Genesect and I don't see why you should assume without any warrant for doing so that if something looks like it's choice scarfed, it is actually choice scarfed.

LO as I originally said is, at least in my opinion, the only set worth looking at in this suspect because that set actually does lure out its checks and counters in an intelligent way while potentially having the coverage it needs to function as you need it to. My honest response is that if you're running LO Genesect, you are just not going to arbitrarily throw four moves onto a set and call it a day. You are going to be countered by Heatran and A-Marowak without HP Ground, you are going to be hard-walled without electric coverage by Tox/Mandi/many other bulky waters that are viable in the tier, without any fire coverage you are walled by a ton of popular steel types, etc. I don't think any of this has changed your mind though because I just have a perspective that in a battle, things are not so cut and dry as "send X check into Y threat", whereas you seem to think that scouting Genesect is unreasonable. For what it's worth, this was my reply.
 
#37
The poster who I was responding to cited only Celesteela as an example of how Genesect may be reasonably checked or walled. I don't suspect either of us agree with that given that on every one of its sets, it has at least some fire/electric coverage or a faster u-turn. So in this way, yes, there are at least "five or six" pokemon that can allow you to check Genesect better than Celesteela.

So as not to cop out, though, my point wasn't about how Genesect is checked but rather how it is scouted, and I guess that seems to be the main point of contention that pro-ban users such as yourself find too burdensome and that anti-ban posters find manageable.
It is an empirical question whether there is more or less Pokemon that are threatened by Scarf Genesect in this gen. Even if Genesect threatens a Pokemon, it is not as obvious as clicking the appropriate coverage move since your opponent could switch into something that could take that coverage well. Of course, being locked into its suboptimal Choiced move is bad.

I cited Celesteela since it is another Pokemon who could check Scarf Genesect with a common stat spread and KO it, even though Genesect has two (or three counting Blaze Kick for banded) moves that can hit it super effectively. It doesn't require any prediction on the Celesteela user if it has sufficient health. It is not as obvious as Heatran or Marowak-Alola, but Celesteela is commonly played to deal with other things too besides Genesect.
 
#38
So it's time for the bug to leave the overused again...
here are some aspects which will lead genesect in Ubers...or not. (it's just a list as it's 2:30am and fuck off)

1)the upredictability of genesect, it has plenty and plenty of sets which are all different and have different checks too.

2)as Genesect's movepool is near endless, it cans break every of his supposed check with the appropriate coverage and the help of download. And you can easily lost a mon if you try to scout which set it runs as genesect can 2HKO the whole metagame with the appropriate move.

3)People often said you can "easily" switch on scarfgenesect's U Turn which is the move it spams the most. But people forgot you have 5 other mons behind genesect. so it's nice if you bring your toxapex on my gene but it would be nice too if I can bring my wallbreakers (hmm Tapu Lele for example) for free and pressure your team. Also it's very hard to grab momentum against genesect.

4) it can easily clean too. Even if it's not the most used set It learn shift gear (and Rock polish xd). and at +2speed genesect is near unstoppable with a LO or even a douse drive. It's pretty similar to the way RP lando-i could sweep weakened team in oras imo. Band genesect can be a great late game player with a boosted extreme speed too.

5) One of the best typing in the game. It can switch on fairy, metagross, scizor, tapu bulu etc....

and here is the cons:

6) grounded so it can be wear down quickly with the help of hazard.

7)be choice locked can be annoying but is it really a big deal as it affects every choice users ?

Looking at all these points Genesect is 100% ban-worthy imo, and I will vote ban.
 
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#39
i think the reasoning behind putting gene up for suspect, and it being broken in my opinion, is simply the versatility that it has. i've used genesect on about 80% of my sm teams so far and have experimented with all but the choice band set. the mon itself chooses what counters it with its set and this lets it choose its teammates accordingly. every gene set has a counter, ppl seem to forget that but while you try to scout it's set, be it e belt, scarf, lo, band, rp ect you're essentially losing a mon if not two bcus of how hard it hits with download/ebelt and its super effective coverage. with all of its sets being so destructive and so viable, the coverage it has as its disposal, its respectable bulk and not being fully countered by any one mon that can take on most of its sets other than maybe chansey (except band) i think robobuge deserves to be banned.
 
#40
I realize that genesect has a large number of viable sets available and that, with the right coverage, it's capable of 2hkoing every pokemon in the metagame. However, i also believe that it's unhealthy to encourage a metagame where every pokemon is fully counterable, and that it's okay for a mon to not have hard walls if it still has soft checks and other counterplay. Genesect will always be plagued by 4 moveset syndrome, since a boosting set is forced to give up one of its slots for shift gear/rock polish and a choiced set must give up one of its slots for u-turn to gain momentum.

The best genesect sets, in my opinion, are choice banded, expert belt/life orb, and rock polish. While the scarf set is fairly common and decent as a revenge killer, it's widely considered to be the easiest to deal with because it locks itself to a single, relatively weak move whenever it comes in.

Banded Genesect:
Runs: Uturn/Iron Head/Blaze Kick/Extreme Speed
This set hits hard right out of the gate, especially if it manages to rack up a download boost to physical attack, and it can be difficult to switch in for many teams. However, it's fairly straightforward to deal with once it's inside because all of its moves can be easily punished by rocky helmet, and because if it opts not to go for u-turn, then it can often give an enemy pokemon a chance to setup. This genesect usually can't afford to predict and must click u-turn instead -- for example, if the opponent has a hoopa-u in the field, and their switch into Celesteela is obvious, then the player has the option of clicking blaze kick to potentioally knock out the incoming celesteela and eliminate it from the game. However, if you do so, genesect is locked in, giving the opponent the free opportunity to go into a threat like RP Landorus-T, SD Garchomp, Coil Zygarde, etc and get a free boost against you. Therefore, the genesect player is pressured into making the u-turn play even if it's obvious and not particularly helpful outside of momentum-gaining.

Expert Belt Genesect:
Runs: Uturn/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Hidden Power Ground/Flash Cannon/etc
This set often attempts to bluff a choice scarfed set and hit the opponent with its wide array of coverage; however, it suffers from much more sever 4 moveslot syndrome than the previous set since there are only so many things it can lure and check. Additionally, since it's enjoyed a recent surge of popularity on the ladder, opponents are now more likely to scout around for its coverage (eg: bringing in alolan marowak, then switchin into a flying type to see if you have hp ground) which has caused this gensect to lose a lot of its surprise factor. While still effective, it works best against opponents that are unfamiliar with genesect and the options it has available, and the number of people like that is diminishing day by day.

Rock Polish Genesect (Rain):
Runs: Rock Polish/Techno Blast (Water)/Thunder/Bug Buzz
This genesect is run with the intention of setting up in the rain and sweeping with its very broad 3-move coverage that allows it to hit whatever threats the opponent happens to be packing. Water/Electric/Bug is a very hard combination to switch into, I concur, and genesect is strong enough to clean up weaker teams with ease. There are, however, still 2 glaring problems with this set. The first is that it foregoes momentum entirely, replacing a pivot move with a boosting move, so it's significantly less effective in the mid-game and garnering the initiative for your team. Secondly, it lacks a boosting item like expert belt or life orb, so if it gets a physical attack boost form download that it will have a very difficult time hitting hard enough to sweep after a boost. A clever opponent can double into a specially bulky pokemon on the turn you switch in genesect, giving you the wrong boost in order to deter you from setting up right then. This reliance on the download boost makes genesect a scary but not necessarily overcentralizing sweeper.

I hope that my breakdowns for the 3 sets posted above clearly communicate my perspective on genesect, that while it's versatile enough that no one mon can beat every genesect set, it's also very possible to play around and take advantage of the pitfalls of each set listed above. A skilled player should reasonably be able to guess what genesect set the opponent is running based on their team composition (ex: wow, this team would really appreciate luring and weakneing alolan marowak {hp ground ebelt} vs wow, this team has no priority and that genesect is shiny {banded espeed}). I definitely think genesect is a top threat in the metagame, but not one that particularly disadvantages the opponent or constrains teambuilding in ways that would be considered uncompetitive. Please don't ban him.
 
#41
I hope this doesn't come off as shit posting or an argument that doesn't go anywhere but a few people are using the argument of "if I have to run something specifically to deal with this mon then it must be broken." If this is your argument, what are you running to handle Gene that can't be used to handle other mons? Are you forced to run otherwise unviable mons to deal with Gene? In my experience the answer to the second question is "no." This isn't like Hoopa-U where you have to run Mandibuzz or something to even have a chance to switch in. The answers to Genesect are all perfectly viable in OU. To answer the first question lets look at some common Gene answers. Celesteela, Heatran, Alowak, Magearna, Fini, M-Venu, any Zard, and Toxapex can all either switch in or at least provide an answer to Gene depending on the set and what move Gene is locked in to (hell, some even counter in the case of Alowak, heatran, and Tox). These mons are also useful at handling other mons. So I ask again, what mons are people using to SPECIFICALLY handle Gene?

tldr; I'm not saying Gene isn't versatile and very strong but needing to use mons specifically to handle it sounds like a bunch of bunk.
The issue herein becomes that these mons are not all consistent answers to Gensect, whether for the set in particular it is running or the coverage choices the set is running for that particular team. The logical extension of this becomes that you can't rely on just one of these mons to check Genesect and expect your team to have it covered. Some of these combinations don't necessarily synergize well together, whether it's because they're suited for different playstyles (Zard offense vs Toxapex balance/Stall), a lack of defensive Synergy (more than half of these mons are weak to Ground alone), which further limits combinations of these mons in regards to general team-building. You listed Alowak, Heatran, and Toxapex as the closest to counters, but any two of these guys stack a Ground weakness, which is a serious issue given Ground is still a powerful offensive typing, which basically necessitates a good Ground Resist for the team and severely limits the ability to use other ground weak mons regardless of their usefulness (Tapu Koko, Metagross, Tyranitar). These are all severe restraints on the teambuilding phase brought on by Genesect requiring (not encouraging, REQUIRING) multiple effective checks, whether they're commonly viable mons already or not. It's about how many answers are needed to Genesect at once before one can call him properly accounted for.

The second issue to consider emerges from Genesect being part of a team. Many of these mons are good picks because they check a lot of things in the tier, whether that's their job outright (Alowak) or something they do while performing their primary job (Magearna). They're already likely to have something on the opponent's team they need to answer, now add the burden of Genesect's load onto their backs. You can't know unless your opponent is bad with their plays and/or you are a god of reads what Genesect set they are running when the battle begin, so you're either playing cautiously because you can't risk a potential check, or you're gambling on what set they have and hoping your only answer to (say) both Genesect and Tapu Koko didn't just get Lure killed by HP Ground. Genesect is a mon that already swings momentum to its user very easily when you're playing well against it, now throw in the severe risk/reward it brings when you have to gamble on what set it's running to avoid losing something else crucial to your team's core. What is often cited as 4MSS, regardless of proper attribution or not, goes the other way as forcing an unpredictability on the opponent's head and granting a significant number of options to the Genesect user.

My opponent has Genesect and Tapu Koko on their team, and my best answer on the team right now is Alola Marowak. If Genesect is a non-HP Ground set, I check both of these mons and have no issues... but if I guessed wrong and Marowak gets crippled by HP Ground, I now lack an answer not just to Genesect, but to Tapu Koko, a mon that your team has an uphill battle with if your checks aren't ready. Genesect forces either extremely cautious play or a guessing game out of hell if his teammates share checks with sets he can use or bluff, and these are assuming they are general purpose checks that bring Genesect under the blanket, rather than more specialized answers. Genesect also doesn't have the biggest sacrifice to make with typical bluff plays, because the move it can most easily use to hide its coverage is U-Turn, a move that almost always swings momentum to Genesect's user and forces the opponent into a reactionary position. Being in that position makes it hard to force the Genesect user into a position where they have to do something that gives away their set before it's already done extreme damage to your team or allowed the other members to.

Just because Genesect can be answered by common Pokemon choices does not necessarily mean he's not putting a huge constraint on team building. If we have a pool of 30 Pokemon, from whom we can make 45 usable defensive cores, that seems like variety, until it turns out that half of those are very weak to Genesect play. We don't necessarily have a smaller pool of Pokemon, but we're still limiting the ways we can use them, which is in and of itself a constraint on team building. With the Holidays in progress I don't know that I'll have the time (much less the ability) to make reqs for the test, but observation alone makes me lean towards the position that Genesect is an unhealthy presence in the OU metagame.
 
#42
Alright, technically I'm new to this kind of thing even though I lived her for the last few months of Gen 4. What this situation is reminding me of is the Salamence/Latias situation- Pokemon that actually had solid counters (Scizor revenge killing a standard DD Life Orb Mence after an Outrage, Latias running for the hills also at the sight of a Scizor UNLESS she was running HP Fire, Mamoswine and Weavile with Ice Shard to also revenge kill Salamence and threaten Latias) but yet were still banned because they warped the metagame and the people that decided the tiers back then found it unacceptable. Now, this isn't a Garchomp situation (The trolly 102 speed, Sand Veil adding RNG into Garchomp's already great bulk and typing, the ability to run Haban OR Yache berries to negate and then kill people carrying those types of attacks, and a very large movepool of two crucial STABs) but holy shit Genesect is just tilting.

1. Base 99 speed means that it's on the upper half of the metagame in terms of speed. Often times, you're not actually sure exactly which Genesect variant you're looking at until you see the damage/see the moveset's components that AREN'T U-turn/decide to risk a speed battle between the Genesect you're facing and one of your squishier, faster Pokemon.

2. Download means that it will always have some sort of boost switching in, and considering its resistances and decent bulk, it can switch in a lot. If it's not Scarfed, or if it's Banded/Spec'd and gets an attack/special attack boost respectively, hold on tight.

3. Can we please admit it? U-turn is one of the best moves in the game, because of the amazing value of information in a game like this. They stayed in? Oh, time to swap to something immune/resistant/a wall. They switched out? Great, time to push them back out again. Information wins games, and Genesect is undisputedly one of the best collectors of information because it's one of the best users of U-turn out there with a good speed tiering and even decent power with a STAB to reinforce U-turn. (It might even have an attack boost from Download, who knows, and on the subject of information Download can alert the Genesect user to the set used by the Pokemon it's switched into.)

It contains a certain versatility and unpredictability that is quite outstanding. It can run Scarf, Band, Specs, Life Orb, and Expert belt, while also having access to moves such as U-turn, Iron Head, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice beam, and more. The ability to utilize so many different options makes switching into this pokemon very difficult at times, and you would probably be accurate in saying that there are no 100% full counters to Genesect.
"Probably accurate"? That's reality, mate. The movepool wouldn't be a problem (Think Dragonite, or even Goodra) if it weren't for Download and great offensive stats on both sides of the spectrum.

What Genesect does is force a certain creativity and activeness that we would lose with its ban. The mere fact that there are no 100% safe counters means that people need to be creative to beat things, instead of just trying to wall everything. When you have a metagame that revolves around only hard countering things, it becomes increasingly stale and matchup based.
Creativity?

Having to play the "Which Genesect variant am I dealing with here" roulette is creativity?

Going forward, I hope that the OU community is brave enough to experience a metagame where we don't ban pokemon just because they're tough to switch into. There are more factors at play here, and while it may seem difficult to get through at first, it'll be worth it in the end.
...Uh, I'd REALLY not deal with something that has the capability of literally becoming anything the player wants it to be. Genesect may be a jack of all trades, true (It's speed is good, but not impressive, and it really needs a Download boost aligned with its current set to be a particular threat on a particular side of the attacking spectrum) but when it's jack of all trades and more, that's a huge problem.
 
#43
M217 - you cannot really tell whats the moveset its running despite its set, thats the main problem with genesect. for the band set, it can easily ditch blaze kick if the team isnt weak to steel types (mainly ferro/scizor) and use ice beam for landorus-t, it can run an insane amount of coverage in 3 moves alone because it has so many options for the EB/LO set. it can afford to use its coverage moves that easily. genesect doesnt care about 4MSS because it can afford to run so many coverage that a lot of its suppossed checks cannot switch in easily because they dont know what moves are running, and this goes beyond its set. most of the time the genesect user is just going to rack up an insane amount of damage (specially with the EB set) to fully know its set. and yeah, you are most likely going to have a complete stop for it. congratulations. but now genesect managed to pull a little dent on your teamates just to scout the set, and it can still u-turn out of the check and go straight into check a for that mon in particular and still cause problems for later on in the match. this is specially worse for shit like tran/maro/toxa/celesteela/skarm because with trapping support they are eliminated with ease, opening cleaning/sweeping potential for genesect. and before you bring the argument "well theres a lot of stuff in ou that suffers from 4MSS, why isnt this a problem for genesect?" you need to recognize that the stuff that supposedly wall genesect are a lot less safe to switch into it because it simply scares the entire meta due to the its ridiculous movepool.
 
#44
There are a limited number of checks and counters that can be used against Genesect, and even then its shaky because the move sets it can run are so flexible and its team mates make up for any flaws it has. In addition to this not all teams carry the checks or counters for Genesect, even though some of them are very common such as Alolan Marowak, and you effectivily need to carry 2-3 checks/counters for it because you don't know what you'll be up against when you see it; add in that not all of these work well with your team or with each other or stack a common weakness that is super easy for Genesect to switch into or counter on its own. You can argue that Landorus-T and other U-turn users are just as bad, except they have exploitable weaknesses and only run a handfull of sets because of there natural jobs, lets not forget that they also have common or multipul weakness such as ice and water (the exception being Scizor and its mega form by virtue of its typeing, but the move pool is far more limited and its stats are no where near that of Genescts). If you want to argue that you should be able to tell what item and set Genesect is going to run or at least have a higher probablity of running thats fine, but that isn't always going to be the case and not everyone is going to know what team mates it uses with each set and these can be swapped out depending on the teams overall needs. In otherwords it isn't a reliable prediciting tool in this case. For the argument of scouting the sets, this is problematic due to the versatility of its sets, you likely lose 1+ mons just to find this information out which puts you at a severe disadvantage and even if you don't lose any team members out right they become severly weakend in the process and are much easier to revenge kill, while your opponent gets to scout you for free and keep pressure on you. The only way to effectivily have chance at killing genesect outside the realm of luck is to kill off its other 5 team mates which will be no easy task as the game is automatically in the genesect user's favor (barring mirroresk matches). Edit: In addtion to this Genesect is more than capable of taking on the leftovers of the opponent's team almost regardless of its set, because by that point, unless the genesect user was very sloppy, the opponent's remaining few (if not only) pokemon will have lost a good chunk of their health and easily be revenge killed by it. This thing literally punches holes in opposing teams like they are made out super thin paper.

For those saying that running hazards such as SR and Spikes are a good answer because it will limit how much damage Genesect can cause and help keep its shenanigans in check I have this to say:
Yes this is true, but only to a point as there is plenty of room on the Genesect user's team to fit in defog or rappid spin to remove these hazards and it is very easy for genesect to switch into them. In addition this would force most if not all teams to run a SR setter and a spikes setter, prefferably more than one so as to be able to reset spikes after that are removed (and yes it will happen). Add to that that it takes 3 turns to set up spikes to deal effective damage in which time genesect can u-turn out or switch out or kill the spikes setter and then remove the hazards in no particular order depending on what the genesect is running. At the end of the day this really isn't a good argument for not banning it no matter how common entry hazards are (SR being the most common).
 
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#45


I'm currently on the fence in regards Gene, I mean sure he has a great typing with only one weakness (currently limited fire type mons and mostly used as coverage), a fantastic mixed movepool in tandem with STAB U-Turn meaning Download ability is almost never a waste and ability to make it creative using anywhere from scarf to e-belt and water drive, I mean its just great, no questions here.

But as an offensive player, I too can look at other things, mainly its base speed (tier 3) which means plenty outspeed it even with a scarf, ability to OHKO it with a strong neutral stab since it will almost never invest in bulk (calcs below) and the fact it still does need to net a 2HKO on many things puts it in trouble offensively. Also the "virtually very few" switch ins can be said about many pokemon who are/aren't in consideration, for example Pheromosa and Char Megas.

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 230-270 (81.2 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Genesect: 242-285 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 234-276 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

etc.


So what is the problem exactly? Predicting its sets so you don't lose a pokemon figuring it out. I am in agreement with other great players that our tiering philosophy needs to be updated because that game has witnessed heavy changes in gen 6 and 7 that we don't even know if we want things to be creative or for each pokemon to have 2 known sets and thus turning it into a pokemon game of chess.

In short, its fast, it hits hard, it has an endless mixed movepool and can boost itself on top of all that, but can it be stopped? Yes, the question is how many pokemon have to die in the process and what teams are we talking about here? Of all the sets mentioned I believe scarf is the easiest to figure out (lead/either it outspeeds something it shouldn't or is switched in on something boosted of your own), with the physical sets coming in second and the special sets are virtually guesswork without Chansey/stall until you've fainted seen enough.
 
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#46
But as an offensive player, I too can look at other things, mainly its base speed (tier 3) which means plenty outspeed it even with a scarf, ability to OHKO it with a strong stab since it will almost never invest in bulk (calcs below) and the fact it still does need to net a 2HKO on many things puts it in trouble offensively. Also the "virtually very few" switch ins can be said about many pokemon who are/aren't in consideration, for example Pheromosa and Char Megas.
Alright, so first off, base 99 speed is not great. It's good, but not great. However I think you're kidding yourself- tier three? Which other pokemon out there exactly does Genesect lose to in terms of speed that isn't a Mega or just naturally absurdedly fast? If anything, the one thing I've noticed as the generations have progressed is that speed is becoming somewhat less important, and that the people you mentioned have severe baggage of their own- Charizard has a 4x rocks weakness that MUST be addressed by Defogger or Spinner if you don't consistently lead with it, and Pheromosa, while unbelieveably fast, is fodder for priority and Toxapex. Also, none of those would in their right minds switch into Genesect- Charizard has to be sure about hazards first, and base 100 is fodder for revenge killers and either can be walled decently well by a different but diverse set of counters, and Pheromosa is way too squishy to ever properly enter on a switch unless it's prediction of a non-attack. Genesect has neither problem- neutrality to Stealth Rock, bulk that's decent and even on the middle-high side statistically, and a typing with one actual weakness and many, many more resistances than that says it can freely enter and exit much better. (Oh, and neutrality to Toxic Spikes. That's actually huge these days.) Oh, and that steel typing means that only Aqua Jet/Water Shruiken really hits Genesect neutrally in terms of priority moves (Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave are pretty rare)


252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 230-270 (81.2 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Genesect: 242-285 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 234-276 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

etc.
Literally all you proved right here to me was that you can use the damage calculator. Why are you posting calculations of rare situations where NOBODY besides dedicated walls (Read: Not Genesect) would want to enter? Why not post more common examples of Genesect switching into the absurd number of resistances it possesses?

So what is the problem exactly?
Uh...

In short, its fast, it hits hard, it has an endless mixed movepool and can boost itself on top of all that, but can it be stopped? Yes, the question is how many pokemon have to die in the process and what teams are we talking about here? Of all the sets mentioned I believe scarf is the easiest to figure out (either it outspeeds something it shouldn't or is switched in on something boosted of your own), with the physical sets coming in second and the special sets are virtually guesswork without Chansey/stall until you've seen enough.
You literally listed out the problem right here and yet you don't see it as problematic? You have no problems with its versatility and ability to bushwhack people in plain sight?
 
#47
I'm curious what do people think of the meta without gene so far on the suspect ladder?

I think I've finally figured out how to deal with things that counter my team by getting better at scouting, there are a number of top tier mons I have to check for a lure first else I'll quickly get swept
 
#48
RGenesect has been a pretty good pivot for me in Uber. In OU, I can capitalize on that, but it is much harder to predict, as it has many less counters compared to in the uber metagame. I dont even need genesect as a pivot, because pheromosa already can do that, and also brings much more speed to the table.
The obvious difference between the two are their coverage moves.
Pheromosa really only has STAB, with it being countered easily by flying types, as well as poison jab for the physical side, but also has ice beam for the special. It has a very bad ability for a pivot mon, however.
Genesects coverage is very vast; flamethrower, douse blast, thunderbolt, energy ball/giga drain, ice beam, psychic, bug buzz, dark pulse, and flash cannon for special moves.
Blaze kick, gunk shot, fly(?)/aerial ace, zen head butt, u turn/fell stinger, shadow claw, and iron head physically.
It also has great boosting moves in shift gear and rock polish, as well as an ability in download that boosts either front, which allows the use of mixed sets more easily.
Pheromosa is super frail to priority, while genesect can take amy form whatsoever.
Genesect is too versatile in such a metagame, and would I support the pros to ban it to the Uber tier.
 
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Finchinator

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#49
Genesect is a fairly unique Pokemon. Not many things in the tier get the coverage it does, the mixed offensive stats it does, or the ability it has, but those points alone do not make a Pokemon banworthy. What is being measured here is if Genesect can use what it has at its disposal to be broken or not.

While I see a lot of people above addressing the Choice Banded set, I think that the main set that spotlights how potent Genesect is in SM OU is the LO 4 attacks set. This set runs a variety of moves - Bug Buzz, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Iron Head, Ice Beam, Extreemespeed, etc. - but it usually is able to hit a vast majority of Pokemon in the tier no matter which four it elects to use. Any arguments for "4MSS makes Genesect not as threatening" are fairly irrelevant as the opponent doesn't know which moves Genesect has and prediction is always a two-way street in these discussions, so let's refrain from putting much emphasis or value on this point. There will always be a small handful of Pokemon that can check/counter Genesect; Heatran and Alolan-Marowak are seen as the most reliable answers (HP Ground EBelt is viable and Douse Drive have been seen here and there although neither is insanely common), but there are others depending on the set (Mantine, Pelipper, and various bulky waters work when Genesect lacks TBolt, for example, but that doesn't make them too reliable, especially w/ TBolt becoming more and more common w/ time). Overall, defensive counterplay to Genesect is on par with that of many other banworthy threats of the past. With that said, having checks and counters is not all there is to it. If a Pokemon is too frail, slow, inconvenient, or simply not practically relevant to the extent that it compromises the effectiveness of it, then it doesn't matter what counters it has or doesn't have due to it not being too good in the tier. With that said, Genesect does not have any of the aforementioned pitfalls to the crippling extent necessary to detract substantially from its usefullness or viability. Genesect has a solid defensive typing and it is in no way "bulky", but it's far from being as frail as some of the tier's other breakers - it can live most relevant priority moves and while it only has base 99 speed, it can tank some hits and it has priority of its own that it sometimes uses on non-scarf variants (which are the variants we are discussing).

Tiering Policy said:
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) Important to note that it is a relative statement; a 200/200/200/200/200/200 BST Pokemon with standard movepool would be broken in a metagame where the average is say, 100/100/100/100/100/100, not where the average is 200/200/200/200/200/200
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it.
It's fairly clear, in my opinion, that Genesect fits into this general definition of being broken. Genesect is by far one of the most potent offensive presences in the tier and nothing parallels what it can do with everything it has at its disposal.

ABR said:
From a sort of philosophical standpoint, it is important to assess what we really want from our tiers. Given that this is a new generation for OU and for Smogon as a whole, perhaps we can tweak our understanding of ideal tiering. If you go by the standard current banning philosophy (that I and many others took part in during ORAS), then Genesect can potentially be deemed broken as it is versatile + lacks real counters, or "can beat all styles". However, we have to ask ourselves if banning Genesect improves the metagame, which is the reason we have this tiering in the first place. I, for one, believe that Genesect's influence on the metagame is indeed healthy and should be preserved at all costs. What Genesect does is force a certain creativity and activeness that we would lose with its ban. The mere fact that there are no 100% safe counters means that people need to be creative to beat things, instead of just trying to wall everything. When you have a metagame that revolves around only hard countering things, it becomes increasingly stale and matchup based. With Genesect allowed, and thus the pressure to be more unorthodox or active in beating certain pokemon like Gene, the tier is able to flourish with creativity. One can view this as overcentralization, but the degree to which Gene influences the tier seems less like a hindering force and more like a healthy stimulant.

Going forward, I hope that the OU community is brave enough to experience a metagame where we don't ban pokemon just because they're tough to switch into. There are more factors at play here, and while it may seem difficult to get through at first, it'll be worth it in the end.
I'm quoting this because it's one of the main arguments that the anti-ban side has been presenting and it's the most properly articulated variant of it in this thread -- ABR's post had some good points at the start and I respect the intent behind this portion of it even, but I simply disagree w/ it and think it does not hold as a valid argument in the context of tiering decisions currently and here's why:

We tier based on what improves the current metagame and, therefore, we eliminate elements of the tier that are banworthy. We do not tier in attempt to create an ideal tier or cater to some countermeasure against a prospective change in the metagame if something were to get banned - we are not going to keep something broken like Genesect in the tier to keep balance/fat in check to an extent if it is, indeed, broken. Broken things get banned. We do not tier in order to create an "ideal" metagame per se, but we tier in order to have a "balanced" metagame. There is some overlap between these two things, but it's far from a complete overlap. We are not going to repeat "mistakes" of past generations in a sense of allowing bulky styles to become "too good" by banning Genesect - the tier has a myriad of fast, strong, and efficient breakers that are not currently suspected and a vast majority of them will remain in the tier, in all likelihood. Any of these comparisons are simply invalid and irrelevant to this suspect test and opinions formed revolving around it. In addition, any fear that this suspect will lead to styles with things such as Sab+Dug being banworthy should not factor decisions in this suspect test, either (you cannot keep broken in the tier to check broken - if one thing needs to go, it should go and then, if another thing has to go afterwards, it should go afterwards. With that said, your cause and effect isn't even going to be the case, in my opinion, but it shouldn't impact any discussion in this thread). Moreover, discussion should be kept to Genesect and the impact it has on the tier and the prospect of it being banworthy (broken) or not. Given the argument I presented at the start of this post, I believe that Genesect is broken and should certainly be banned from the SM OU metagame.
 
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#50
However I think you're kidding yourself- tier three?
Check the speed tier thread that is stickied in this forum, that is its base speed tier. While you are at it also check the things that outspeed it and then go back the OU SUMO Viability rankings and see how many things outspeed it without going out of their way. I think I did it justice when I called it great in this regard.

Why are you posting calculations of rare situations
These are but a sample of common offensive threats that can OHKO it without resorting to hitting it Super Effectively, which is a point being emphasized alot here about it having one single weakness to exploit.

You have no problems with its versatility and ability to bushwhack people in plain sight?
No I don't have problems with versatile pokemon, they should not be limited to viable 1/2/3 sets in order for me to feel safe and know how to switch/team build, this is not chess where a pawn can move in certain directions, etc. What I have a problem with is an offensive pokemon being unstoppable with little to no setup/risk and forcing me to use gimmick mons/sets that have no use other than to stop him.
 
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