Metagame np: SM PU Stage 1.1: Legend Has it [USM! post #60]

Akir

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#51
There have been a lot of good opinions and I will try to avoid echoing anything previously said, so I will try to be brief-ish.

So if you have talked to me at any length about my personal tiering philosophy, you should know that team diversity is top priority for me. That is why I supported the Hariyama re-test honestly: Even though Lanturn and company work fine as Fire and Ice checks, they don't go on every team per se and teams shouldnt be forced to pick from a small handful of mons for a role anyway. AV Hariyama gave teams some extra building room by providing a new alternative that bought new breathing space for teams via role compression and new defensive synergy dynamics, and therefore more team diversity can unfold. In this sense I feel like most people agree: AV Hariyama is good for the tier. It provides more opportunities for more teams to branch out and diversify. It isn't overwhelming and gives me a not-Magmortar option for my offense.

However I am reminded of the Machoke suspect as well. Machoke in ORAS was also beneficial to the tier, but we banned it because of one singular part. It was dpunch in that case, and it is Guts in this case. I am definitely in the camp that believes that complex bans should be avoided when possible, so while the AV set is beneficial in so many ways I have to admit that the Guts set is nothing but damaging and warrants a ban. Ironically enough, the Guts set has the opposite effect of the AV set: it shrinks the number of options available to teams. Weezing goes from a perfectly fine Fighting check to an iffy one, as does Granbull and others. I found that I had to have multiple mons to beat Fighting Types now all because just having 1 made me too vulnerable to Hariyama teams. It is due to the constricting nature that Guts has on the metagame that I will vote ban in the suspect.

To be fair though, Guts does have a lot of drawbacks that have been covered. Guts is not a set for the long-term as it is worn down pretty easily, although you can extend it by sacking a 2nd member of your team for it with a Healing Wish. You do also have to predict heavily if you are the one using Hariyama, as a bad cc almost always forces you out and Hariyama relies a lot on pressing the right attack at the right time. I do offer this counter-argument though: Yes Hariyama is a short-term wallbreaker and is prediction-heavy, but I really only need to get 1 really good hit in most games. In so many of my matches, I only needed Hariyama to break 1 threat, and sometimes 1 attack was enough. Predicting Fighting switchins is also pretty easy, so I just went for the easy Facade/Knock Off and got a kill most of the time...or at least crippled something. This poses a problem for teambuilders: either have a hyper-specific counter (Gourgeist-XL comes to mind) to Hariyama or have multiple answers for 1 single wallbreaker. The repercussions for not doing so is to make your team very vulnerable to Hariyama and, more specifically, the sweeper/wincon that Hariyama is breaking for.

tl;dr: I'm voting ban even though I love AV Hariyama and what it offers to team diversity. The Guts set, even though it has its flaws, is not meant to win games but break walls...and it does so reliably enough that it limits the number of consistent walls and constricts teambuilding more than what AV potentially adds.
 
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galbia

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#52
Unrelated to the suspect test: Guzzlord is now NU as a result of the October quickrises.

Related to the suspect test: i am going to vote to keep hariyama banned. a lot of people wrote about it much better than i could if i tried (and really there is no need to repeat) but the i don't think the easy teambuilding a pokemon like it promotes is any good for the tier long term. it just works so well as a blanket check to special threats it could be easily ran on half the teams you build.
the fact that it can also run a scary wallbreaking set (which probably isn't as unbeatable as some of the people in this thread think) just adds unpredictability and options to an already great pokemon.

no doubts that over time (they already did tbh) teams will be able to adapt to it like for any other non-super-ridicolous threat with more of gourgeist, palossand, pain split qwilfish, etc. but i am sure it will not be worth it in the long run even if we get an additional fire/ice/dark resist

read hjad's and raiza's post since they explain what i mean more in detail
 

Twix

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#53

Hey pals after about 150 games on the ladder I achieved reqs to vote so I'd like to explain my point of view on hariyama. No lie, I haven't read any of the other posts since I haven't had much time so I'm sorry if I'm regurgitating what other people had said. Luckily, out of all of my ladder games, I found time to use both varients of Hariyama. Hariyama is disgusting with its high HP and Attack, allowing it to dish out very strong hits while being hard to kill. I've also seen Earthquake variants of the Guts set which can turn Qwilfish on its head. Hariyama just has a lot of move options in the last spot which can change the outcome of the game and turn counters into checks or just dead. Throughout my games, I barely found any viable teams which did not contain Mesprit and/or Qwilfish, which kinda takes diversity out of teambuilding. It is my opinion that even the Assault Vest variant is pretty disgusting, even if it can check threats such as Magmortar, so I will be voting ban.

The first team I explored was a really cool Offensive team with Guts Hariyama + SD Grassium Abomasnow which I used in the first suspect tour and got to semis where I lost to pu main dundies. Unfortunately, the team is on my other computer so I won't be able to post it before the suspect ends. However, from what I saw, the damage produced by Yama was actually disgusting, doing around 75 to things like Mesprit which are supposed to be hard checks. On a kinda separate note, SD Abomasnow is fire lol.

From there, I can actually get into teams which I had used on the actual suspect ladder that I have on hand.


Hariyama Spike Stack
Guzzlord @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Def / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
- Crunch

Kangaskhan @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Facade
- Sucker Punch

Mesprit @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- U-turn

Qwilfish @ Waterium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Aqua Tail
- Explosion

Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Heavy Slam

This was probably my most creative and favorite team to use during the suspect, which I passed around to about 10 different people. The main idea was to set up entry hazards with Qwilfish and Mesprit, with each having the ability to beat common hazard removers such as Hitmonchan and Skuntank. Life Orb Mesprit is actually really cool since most people expect more of a passive version with Colbur. From there, Kangaskhan and Hariyama use Fake Out as well as their strong moves to break through teams in conjunction with the entry hazards, while Zebstrika is effective in providing momentum and the ability to clean. Defensive phazing Guzzlord is probably one of the most fire sets I've used and in many cases just ended up winning me the game as my opponents allowed their checks to it to die. The most disgusting part about it is it's able to live a Close Combat from Scarf Primeape and 2 Drain Punches from standard Gurdurr. Overall, this team was my favorite and carried me to my ladder wins.

I also tried out a fire Trick Room team with Hariyama and it usually ended up getting 2-3 kills while under Trick Room because of its extreme attack in conjunction with great coverage. It's just a really disgusting Pokemon overall, and this team really just showed me the complete raw power of the set, especially since it was rarely outsped and could just nuke opposing Pokemon. I also lost the pastebin to this team as well lol.

To conclude, keep the sumo banned. It's not healthy with its Guts setm even if it could potentially help out the tier with Magmortar being a scary threat and Guzzlord just leaving. However, no matter what way I see it there's just way too many cons than pros with the unbanning decision.


on another note, rip guzzlord

I can see Pokemon like Magmortar, Mesprit (doesn't even have to run Gleam anymore), Musharna, and Raichu-Alola gaining usage since Guzzlord was one of their largest stops. In effect, Pokemon such as Drampa and Exeggutor-Alola will most likely rise in usage to make up for the loss of a great Dragon-type. I really think Magmortar gets even more better, even to the point of becoming S-Rank.
 
#55
Discussion machine broke, let's get something going

Allow me to bring to light what I believe are some of the most slept on threats in this metagame.

image.jpg

Drampa @ Choice Specs
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast

Bulky cores? What bulky cores? Drampa is one of the best balance breakers in PU. There is nothing, and I mean N O T H I N G that can switch into this monstrosity. Specs Draco Meteor on it's own does huge damage against everything that does not possess the Fairy typing. The few Fairies that do exist get obliterated by Hyper Voice anyway.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aggron: 270-318 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 237-279 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if you're running a balance/bulky offense team and your opponent is using Drampa, better smash that mf x button

image.jpg

Pinsir @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker/Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

The thing about Pinsir is that it has very serviceable bulk, allowing it ample opportunities to set up on bulkier mons, and then go all-out with strong SD boosted attacks. Mold Breaker EQ allows Pinsir to actually threaten Weezing, while Moxie can allow for some sweet ass snowball sweeps.
 
#56

Raichu-Alola @ Normalium Z
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Celebrate
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic

So this is my first post about a set that I've ever done so hopefully it's all good. So I haven't been getting around to making super legit teams but i have been using a few fun mons on my teams, and this is one of them. Z-celebrate Raichu is not strong enough to one-shot everything the opponent sends in to revenge kill, while scarfers take down nasty plot chu too easily. This thing, though, sets up on things like Clefairy and passive mons that most opponents just send out to die, as they assume they can revenge kill raichu easily. From there, set up both boosts and proceed to sweep. It works especially well with healing wish support, as it gets two chances to sweep! Give it a try, it can be pretty effective!
 
#57


Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 180 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Destiny Bond
- Haze
- Hex/Filler
- Will-O-Wisp

So this is my first ever post on an analyses page so, cut me some slack (also on mobile). So as you can see I am talking about dusclops today. Dusclops, that I have seen, hasn't been used in pu. I think that should change. First, Dusclops stops hitmonchan from hitting high powered STAB boosted Mach punches and drain punches.
Moves:
Drain Punch 92.292%
Rapid Spin 86.135%
Ice Punch 83.752%
Mach Punch 77.803%

Another thing that Dusclops does is stop hitmonchan and others from spinning away the hazards. Dusclops, in return, can cripple hitmonchan or most (gurdurr guts) physical attackers with will-o-wisp. Not only can Dusclops stop physical attackers, it can also stop special attackers. With its 130 sp def, (and 130 def) it can take multiple hits from top threats like Mesprit. Well, I will leave calcs down below.




Calcs:

252 SpA Mesprit Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 70-84 (24.6 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 151-179 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Hitmonchan Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 44-52 (15.4 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO ( i picked a super effective move for this one.)

252 Atk Skuntank Crunch vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 104-126 (36.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (can tank a hit from Skunktank.)

Well, I hope this post showed others to use Dusclops more in PU. As you can see it can pretty easily take hits from STAB super effective moves. Thanks for using your time to read this and enjoy using this set or your own custom set!
-LucarioAidan
 
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Taskr

Wanna Know
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#59
Okay so the meta has developed a little bit since PUPL and I wanted to highlight what I think are some of the Pokemon that have stood out for me.



Z-Me First Pinsir is a menace for offensive teams to deal with as it is able to outspeed the scarfers that offense tends to run like Primeape and Jynx. It's X-Scissor+EdgeQuake coverage is able to hit everything in the tier for at least neutral damage, meaning that Moxie boosts aren't that hard to grab and can allow Pinsir to snowball the opposing team once it gets one. Also, this Pinsir set is often paired with Pokemon that are able to pressure Weezing, Regirock and Gurdurr well such as Archeops or special Carracosta and this makes it much harder to check late game. Pinsir is able to find set-up opportunities against a decent amount of things in the meta such as choice-locked Primeape, Skunktank and Hitmonchan, as well as forced switches from Mesprit and Musharna.



There hasn't been much of a metagame buzz around Haunter but I still feel like it has some untouched potential right now, even with Skuntank being so popular. Destiny Bond allows Haunter to double down against Skuntank in most cases and removing Skuntank for the game can provide good opportunities for teammates such as Mesprit, Jynx and Shiftry, it can also allow you to set up Toxic Spikes freely with teammates like Qwilfish or Weezing. With Guzzlord rising too, the tier doesn't offer many good Ghost resists outside of Skuntank so if your opponent is using a non-Skuntank team then Haunter has the ability to put in a lot of work breaking down defensive cores.



Eelektross is actually super good right now, slow Volt Switches are really nice to bring in wallbreakers and it's ability to threaten defensive cores like Ferroseed and Gastrodon with super-effective coverage make it really annoying for some teams to deal with. It is also one of the only Pokemon that can take on all of the tiers top Flying-types in Archeops, Oricorio-Sensu and Swanna decently well and can also serve as a decent blanket check in general for special attackers such as Abomasnow, Floatzel and Lanturn. Overall, I feel like its splashability on a lot of offensive and bulky offensive teams makes it a great Pokemon in the metagame at the moment.
 

galbia

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#60

Rwby

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#61
Okay so I thought I'd share my current thoughts about the new additions that USUM brought to PU. I will be ignoring the Rock/Steel Ultra Beast because, even though it could drop to PU, it's currently OU and wont reach here for a while.


Okay so this is the first Pokémon I wanted to address purely because Passimian received significant hype prior to the release of the games, with people theorising how powerful it would be with the myriad of new moves that it gained access to along with Defiant. The issue is, Passimian didn't get Defiant. This basically means it's still stuck with a useless ability that isn't able to aid it, with only a few stronger moves to try and differentiate it from its rival, Primeape. However it doesn't really shine in comparison as almost all of its new moves Primeape had prior access to, such as Gunk Shot and Iron Tail, and getting only two new relevant moves that are able to separate it from Primeape, being Knock Off and Seed Bomb. The latter only hitting a select few Pokémon such as Colbur Berry Golurk and Gastrodon, with the former giving it a decent utility move that does remove items; the issue is everything it's able to hit super-effectively with Knock Off will mostly carry a Colbur Berry and be able to deal with it regardless. Even though it does posses more bulk than Primeape, Primeape has a better Speed tier and access to Defiant, which makes me question why you'd use this over it, bar a Choice Band set I guess. If it actually got Defiant I may have a different opinion, but sadly it didn't.


I think that Lycanroc has slightly improved thanks to its new moves, but I don't believe it's a massive change. The main move that caught my attention was actually Endeavour, as this addition means it's able to function as a better Suicide Lead in comparison to Archeops, in my opinion. Endeavour plus priority, along with access to Taunt, means it'll be a strong lead for more offensive teams. Quite honestly I don't believe Zen Headbutt will change much about Lycanroc, it's basically a waste of a move-slot on the offensive Swords Dance sets as it has to give up an otherwise valuable coverage move to hit foes like Qwilfish and Weezing for only 10 more base power than Stone Edge, while forfeiting its coverage for Pokémon such as Ferroseed. Drill Run is an interesting one, because I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. Not getting Earthquake and instead getting a weaker move with a chance to miss sucks for this Lycanroc form and was clearly intended for the Midday one, due to Tough Claws boosting it. It does hit things like Regirock, Carracosta, Qwilfish, etc. super-effectively, but at the cost of a coverage move such as Fire Fang or Brick Break; Stone Edge also has only a slightly lower base power than it. Drill Run might be a neat addition, but currently I'm finding justification rather difficult.


Togedemaru got two new interesting moves in Iron Head and Super Fang. The former finally gives it the Steel-type STAB we've wanted for it since PU dropped, allowing for a STAB move that isn't able to be absorbed by either abilities of Ground-types. The latter gives it a way of chipping standard switch-ins like Ferroseed and Eelektross, instead of it having the rely on Toxic for resists that aren't Steel-type like itself. Now something that has always interested me about Togedemaru is its Speed tier, which is actually really solid for a Choice Scarf Pokémon. Being able to outspeed Choice Scarf Primeape and +1 Jynx/Lilligant is a very attractive trait and, along with its newfound STAB move Iron Head, I think Togedemaru may actually be a viable Choice Scarf user in PU.


Originally when this was announced it was hyped quite a lot in NU because of it being a Stealth Rock setter than can also heal itself with Shore Up, but didn't receive Stealth Rock in the base games. However, now getting Stealth Rock in USUM will really boost how viable Palossand is. This is huge because it's able to successfully spin-block versus every viable Rapid Spinner in the tier while setting up on them. Palossand also has a fantastic match-up versus most setters in the tier, including Mesprit and Qwilfish, meaning it'll most certainly be a top tier setter. I'm actually slightly worried that NU could take this because being a Stealth Rock setter able to beat Steelix and pressure Xatu is huge, along with it being the only setter in NU with reliable recovery.


I think Defog is going to improve this Pokémon a lot, across its multiple forms, but the one that peaked my interest was Silvally-Water. A Defogger with the ability to beat basically every single hazard setter in the tier is huge, thanks to its coverage moves in Flamethrower, Surf, and Thunderbolt. A good base Speed coupled with a decent enough offensive stat means that it'll be harder for setters to keep their hazards up or set directly in front of it. While its utility outside of Defog might be quite limited as it isn't that strong, the fact that it can exert pressure on every setter will certainly give it a solid niche in the metagame. Oh, it also gets Tailwind too; neat.

These were just some basic thoughts but I'll probably post more once the meta has been explored a little better!
 
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#62
Since we're doing discussion, I'm jumping in.

Okay, I know people are gonna try and hype this for that Choice Scarf set saying it got better with the new moves but I just wanted to say that it's really not that good even with new tutors. Iron Tail does squat to Regirock and only has a 6% chance to 2HKO standard clef. Zen Headbutt only does 2% more to Weezing, still making it a 4HKO and Gurdurr still beats you unless you flinch-crit it. Fire Punch 2HKOs Ferroseed which Fire Fang already did. So basically you're only ever still going to be clicking Stone Edge with this mon even with the new moves.

Okay, so I know that Lurantis and Servine have completely different roles, but I still imagine them using similar sets of Leaf Storm, Defog, Synthesis, and either HP Fire/Ice or something like Knock Off/Leech Seed. Whatever the case, I feel like now with Defog that Servine may overall be better. While it has lower base stats, its bulk with Eviolite isn't that much worse (actually taking special hits better), it still has reasonable bulk even with just max HP and no defenses. And even though Servine has a lower SpA than Lurantis, the Speed difference is enough to make me consider it marginally better. I'm gonna have to try them out, but I feel like Lurantis may be better as a physical attacker now that it has Superpower and Knock.

I still don't like this mon because I've seen way too many missed Sucker Punches right before it dies, but the addition of Knock Off at least lets it have better competition with Absol so now I'might actually listen to some arguments for moving this up in the VR instead of just posting this replay (though his team was very meme-y it still shows downside of Hustle).

Finally able to successfully trap and beat Ferroseed and Bronzor, but not too much to say other than that. I haven't been seeing as many Steel types lately, and though I'm sure Togedemaru will rise in usage a little bit, it can still U-turn on this.
 
#63
I haven't seen this here, so might aswell give it a go.



Cutiefly @ Eviolite
Ability: Shield Dust/Sweet Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe /156 HP / 92 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Moonblast

Cutiefly is the second fastest Sticky Web user in PU next to Leavanny, while its typing is slightly better and it gets access to U-Turn. Its niche over Masquerain lays in Cutiefly not being totally demolished by Stealth Rock (on the other hand Masquerain has access to Intimidate). Max Speed Evs are necessary for a fast Sticky Web while 248 are there to make Cutiefly take a feeew more hits. The rest is put into SpA to get off some damage, but that is totally up to you.
Sweet Veil as ability and the second EV spread checks Lilligant with Sleep Powder. Unboosted Lilligant never KOs Cutiefly (even after rocks), while U-Turn gives you momentum and around 33.2 - 39.8% damage on Lilligant, making it easier for other Pokemon in your team to kill.

what am I doing
 
#64
Bippidy bop, when will my love for Pom-Pom stop.


Ok, so my beloved child Oricorio-Pom-Pom got defog. On surface this is great, but when thinking about it the match-up against stealth rockers is so bad that most of them can just switch in for free, such as Regirock, Ferroseed and Golurk. I've been speculating on a defensive pivot set with u-turn and rocky helmet, with the other alternative being an offensive set (hurricane, revelation dance, defog and roost) which might be better, but with the amount of defoggers the tier has received as competition I don't think there will be a set that compresses what Pom-Pom wants to do for a team in 4 moveslots to distinguish itself as an option. Overall disappointing, and I think the stallbreaker and bulky calm mind sets will overshadow any version of defog Pom-Pom, especially since they help differentiate it from this next mon...


As much as I hate to say it, but Rotom-Fan is going to be a much better defogger than Pom-Pom. They both have the same typing but Rotom-Fan has a bunch of tools that make it much more effective as a defogger. First of all, access to will-o-wisp is huge since burn cripples a large portion of the common stealth rockers, mainly Regirock, Golurk and even Golem which has seen more usage recently. Even access to volt switch over u-turn is good because it means Rotom is able to keep dual stab and still act as a momentum grabber, whilst Pom-Pom would have to use u-turn which means it drops either hurricane or revelation dance. Yeah not having roost sucks and I doubt it has room for pain split, but overall Rotom-Fan is looking pretty healthy and defog was the buff that it needed.

Pom-Pom is still cooler ;-;
 
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Anty

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#65

Bellossom @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Strength Sap
- Energy Ball

After using bellossom a lot pre USM I had to accept it was completely unviable, however Strength Sap gives it an actual niche now which should be explored, and its actually gained more than a lot of the hyped up mons. Shit speed tier but at plus one you always outspeed skuntank and magmortar, plus 2 you beat all non boosted (relevant) mons, and plus 3 puts you above every scarfer. Bellossoms issue was always power, as if you didnt invest in bulk you should use lilligant, meaning random strong mons like kanga had an ability to RK you, but strength sap stops that (eg take the DE, QD again, outspeed and heal to full), and you pretty much heal over half the first time vs every mons, and vs physically offensive mons like hitmonchan you can get 3 good heals out of it, while nullifying their ability to KO you. Not sure if Sleep Powder is worth using over a coverage move (hp fire/moonblast) but its certainly nice at racking boosts, as with SS you worry less about an early wake. Not an amazing mon still as it has issues with magmortar/oricorio, while mono grass coverage isnt that great (you should still beat non-toxic ferro). Ive been tempted to run Z but lefties is really helpful when the opp is at like -3 and ur not healing much, but at the same time you have the option of z-SS to boost defense.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-660945955 - shit replay but its just an example of how bellossom works (i havent got any good replays with it still in testing stage, just wanted to bring light on an undervalued mon)


Absolute trash. Shocker. NP cant break rocks/grounds/most steels, and can rarely set up, and if it does you lose to every scarfer. Fell stinger is epic but you dont even do 70 with plus 3 LO iron tail and its other coverage move is peck.

Cutiefly's niche is people not knowing it learns sticky web so they don't taunt it with their suicide leads.
 
#66
I have a few Bellossom replays to contribute, I've been running a similar set and while it's not going to be meta defining it's a cute bulky set up sweeper. I'm running max hp/max+ speed Grassium with Sap/QD/Eball/Sbomb, since the coverage is decent enough and the z-sap boosts defense or you have a z-eball for some immediate power.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-661234562 - sets up against a Guts Ursaring, of all things, and sweeps a trick room team, of all things.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-661232288 - some very meme sets on display here (including me), but it sweeps so.

Some other lil things: Perish Trap Chimecho is kinda hilarious but nothing amazing. Scarf normal Rat has some potential I think? Outspeeds and 1hkos all of scarf ape, +1 Jynx and +1 Lilli, Return/Double Edge is a nuke and it has U-turn to pivot out of normal resists. It cleaned up a few times in my brief testing today so I think it might be cool.
 

Eclipse

I've seen so much I'm going blind & I'm brain dead virtually
is a Contributor to Smogon
#67
Some sets I've been using and some observations I've had on the current meta:


Rotom-Frost @ Icium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Pain Split
- Volt Switch
- Blizzard

Decided I wanted to use SubSplit Icium Z Rotom-Frost to take advantage of the usage of passive Rocks setters such as Defensive Mesprit and Palossand. Behind a Sub, this thing can lure in potential checks such as Ferroseed and wear it down with the combination of Blizzard + Subzero Slammer. It is also an amazing pivot since Ground-types obviously do not want to pivot in on this thing and block Volt Switch due to the threat of Blizzard. SubSplit also allows you to wear down potential would-be checks to it such as Lanturn (although you're still going to need partners to pair with this to lure/weaken Lanturn since it basically switches into Rotom for free. I wanted to try and run Defog + Pain Split over Sub on this set, but I decided to run SubSplit instead and pair Rotom with this:


Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 240 HP / 100 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

There's still obviously a more optimized spread for this thing, but while it's early on in the USM meta, figured I might as well experiment a little. I saw this thing get gassed up and wanted to try it out for its ability to take on numerous hazard setters such as Regirock, Qwilfish, Alolan Duggy, Golurk, Palossand, Ferroseed. There are times wish I had Parting Shot at times, so you can probably switch it out with Tbolt or Flamethrower if you wish to not get pivoted on for free by Lanturn. HP EVs for bulk, Speed for Ada Skuntank and Modest Magmortar, and the rest in Special Attack so that you don't hit like a wet noodle.


Granbull @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Double-Edge

This idea came to me when I wanted a physical Fairy-type wallbreaker that could still help me check Fighting-types like Primeape, Passimian, Gurdurr, and Hitmonchan which were a giant nuisance to my team and could take advantage of them. While Weezing fucks this set up hard, it's easy to wear down and put into 2HKO range of Double-Edge. While Granbull finds itself facing heavy competition as a physical check/cleric, it is the strongest physical Fairy-type in the tier next to Mawile (Which doesn't check Fighting-types well which is why I opted for Granbull over that, and Intimidate allows it to check physical attackers such as Archeops, Regirock, Golurk, and Skuntank provided that it has enough health to take it on (which is why I pair this mainly with Healing Wish Mesprit since Granbull gets worn down easily). Speed EVs outspeed Weezing, but you can run more or less EVs as you like, I'm still experimenting on this set. Overall this set has worked better than I expected it to perform, and it's very fun to use, so might as well give it a shot; this thing isn't AS shit as it is made out to be, it just needs to be experimented a little bit, is all.

Some other mons I have noticed that are performing pretty decently despite not having used them myself:


I've seen Many experimenting with Silvally-Steel on the ladder so he probably has more to add here, but it looks to be a really annoying Defogger to deal with due to its great defensive typing and bulk allowing it to last throughout the match despite its lack of recovery. Defog + Flash Cannon + Flamethrower + Toxic helps deal with the likes of Regirock, Golem, Ferroseed with its coverage moves and Golurk, Palossand, and Mudsdale with Toxic.


While Choice sets on Passimian are annoying, I've also been seeing Bulk Up sets prove to be a pain on this thing due to its superior Speed tier over other Bulk Up users such as Gurdurr (although they perform far differently due to Gurdurr's much higher bulk). It'll be interesting to see how this fares against competition such as Primeape as this meta develops, but it isn't looking that bad.


This thing doesn't fucking die. Iron Defense + Swords Dance sets mean that if your potential Ghost-type gets trapped and taken out, then you will have EXTREME difficulty breaking past Type: Null. There is other counterplay to it such as Taunt users like Pyroar which I have been using myself, but yeah, this thing is a pain in the ass to fight against.

Overall, this meta is very fun; while nothing has relatively changed THAT much, the move tutors helped bring life to a number of mons, such as Passimian, Kingler, Mudsdale, Palossand, Altaria, Type: Null, and the Silvally forms (more specifically Steel, Water, and Ghost, but I haven't tried the other forms besides Fairy much as of late). The multitude of new Defog users means that hazard removal is MUCH easier to fit on teams so I don't feel like I have to be forced to shoehorn AV Hitmonchan or Defog Skuntank/Swanna onto all of my builds (not that these mons are bad, but I like having options when I build so this is appreciated). I'll definitely be looking forward to see how this meta progressed, because it is looking pretty damn great so far and I'm having fun playing it, so that's always lit.
 
#68
Shh
It's okay everyone, the savior of PU is here.



Raichu @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Nuzzle
- Volt Switch / Wild Charge

For real though, with Raichu-A taking the niche away as a NP Special Attacker, let's distinguish Raichu's niche as an annoying utility mon with a usable base 90 attack, a high 110 base speed, and a plethora of physical options. This is just a set that I've been testing that's been doing some relatively good work spreading status, crippling teams, and creating momentum. This set would have been perfect with U-Turn but beggars can't be choosers. Having access to Knock Off and Extreme Speed is wonderful.
 
#69

Bellossom @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Strength Sap
- Energy Ball

After using bellossom a lot pre USM I had to accept it was completely unviable, however Strength Sap gives it an actual niche now which should be explored, and its actually gained more than a lot of the hyped up mons. Shit speed tier but at plus one you always outspeed skuntank and magmortar, plus 2 you beat all non boosted (relevant) mons, and plus 3 puts you above every scarfer. Bellossoms issue was always power, as if you didnt invest in bulk you should use lilligant, meaning random strong mons like kanga had an ability to RK you, but strength sap stops that (eg take the DE, QD again, outspeed and heal to full), and you pretty much heal over half the first time vs every mons, and vs physically offensive mons like hitmonchan you can get 3 good heals out of it, while nullifying their ability to KO you. Not sure if Sleep Powder is worth using over a coverage move (hp fire/moonblast) but its certainly nice at racking boosts, as with SS you worry less about an early wake. Not an amazing mon still as it has issues with magmortar/oricorio, while mono grass coverage isnt that great (you should still beat non-toxic ferro). Ive been tempted to run Z but lefties is really helpful when the opp is at like -3 and ur not healing much, but at the same time you have the option of z-SS to boost defense.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-660945955 - shit replay but its just an example of how bellossom works (i havent got any good replays with it still in testing stage, just wanted to bring light on an undervalued mon)
Sleep Powder seems nice for free setups, but your setup may get compromised by Grass-types. Replacing it by Sludge Bomb or HP Fire (if you get one) might be a good idea to surprise Grass-type trying to check you from using Sleep Powder (as long as they believe that you have SP instead). Sludge Bomb for a decent damage, HP Fire against steels like Ferroseed, also Moonblast for decent damage aswell (Dazzling Gleam if you go doubles).

MODEDIT: stick to pu discussion

I wonder, will Poipole be a check for Bellossom? or stuff like +1 Moonblast will dent it? (x0.25 with Energy Ball so don't even mention it!)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#70
I wonder, will Poipole be a check for Bellossom? or stuff like +1 Moonblast will dent it? (x0.25 with Energy Ball so don't even mention it!)
I mean, you could theoretically use Eviolite Poipole to tank the two-move variants, but it gets slept on easily by the far more common variant and absolutely needs setup to do damage. Poipole is sort of a unmon in general though.

(Still, that part of your post should've been saved for a Simple Questions thread. Just saying)
 
#71
I wonder, will Poipole be a check for Bellossom? or stuff like +1 Moonblast will dent it? (x0.25 with Energy Ball so don't even mention it!)
In case you haven't found out, Poipole is just a pure poison type so it only resists energy ball (and moonblast for that matter) by 0.5x, not 0.25x if it was a Poison/Dragon type. Also due to the fact it's not a Poison/Dragon type, it's pretty much an unmon so no point in discussing it.