Metagame np: SM PU Stage 1.1: Legend Has it [USM! post #60]

#2
First post woohoo

Is anyone actually surprised by this ban? Like, at all? Medicham is literally just Gallade 2.0, but instead of Knock and SD, you instead get Recover and Fake Out. Also, it's even stronger than Gallade, and has a better Fighting STAB. There was literally no way in hell this thing was sticking around for long, and I am glad it has been given the boot. Now, let's just wait and see how Mesprit and Archeops do.

P.S. Can we see the council votes for Medicham just to see what they thought?
 
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Rwby

@g change my smogon name to lalala memes :33
is a Pre-Contributor
#3
First post woohoo

Is anyone actually surprised by this ban? Like, at all? Medicham is literally just Gallade 2.0, but instead of Knock and SD, you instead get Recover and Fake Out. Also, it's even stronger than Gallade, and has a better Fighting STAB. There was literally no way in hell this thing was sticking around for long, and I am glad it has been given the boot. Now, let's just wait and see how Mesprit and Archeops do.

P.S. Can we see the council votes for Medicham just to see what they thought?
Fake out and recover were not why it was banned, at all. Like, recover was never used at all and fake out was, imo, not the best use of a move slot especially when it could use ice punch instead. Gallade also was a different threat in how it functioned, as it was more a set up sweeper whilst cham has immediate power. Maybe learn the mons you discuss a little better.

I am however happy that they banned it, especially with pupl coming up, as it had basically no defensive switch ins and still had presence versus offense; as said in the post. I also tried webs cham which was extremely broken due to it mitigating the average speed stat and beating most forms of hazard control.
 
#4
Just wanted to add my 2 cents with Medicham. tl;dr

It's only been a short amount of time since Medicham dropped and i've seen a bunch of comparisons to Gallade. Medicham has 1 key advantage over Gallade, and that's extra immediate power. This allows it to:
- Not need a boosting move to break bulky teams. The adamant life orb set could cleanly 2HKO the entire team aside from Sableye and Musharna. Even the generic physical walls Gourgeist-Super and Palossand we're 2HKO'd by the ice punch, and since it had a slot free from not needing swords dance this became a viable option.
- Run priority moves a lot better since they're stronger. Medicham gets access to fake out and bullet punch, and although fake out wasn't the best option bullet punch helped it have a purpose in hyper offense match ups.
- Run a much better scarf set. Since Gallade relied on swords dance to break fat teams the scarf set was always lacking in comparison. The extra power is crucial in calcs for breaking the fatter teams, meaning that Medicham could easilly run a scarf trick set and still break efficiently.

Overall, Medichams counterplay was restricted to Musharna and Sableye, and both of those are easily exploited by dark types which are natural partners for fighting types due to pursuit trapping. Overall i'm glad that the decision was made to quick ban Medicham since we're in an important stage with regards to tournaments (PUPL just coming up, midway between PU unopen). Despite this influencing the decision, I don't think we'll see a retest any time soon unless there's a major meta shift with regards to drops.
 
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#5
PU hype woot woot. Glad we got Mesprit back, but I feel like it'll be constantly rising/falling as we go on with the tier. Gonna share something I've been using over the past few days that seems to be forgotten about on the ladder.

Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power
- Hidden Power / Filler

Tangela is something that I haven't seen much of on the ladder, but still manages to act as a reliable pivot for Balance and Bulky Offensive teams thanks to eviolite boosted defenses+Regenerator backed by reasonable offensive stats. It acts as a nice blanket check to a lot of physical attackers like AV Hitmonchan, Absol, and Gurdurr, even without any Defensive investment. And while most people run Skunk/Weezing as their grass counters, neither one takes Leaf Storm particularly well (and you can just pivot out to get regenerator healing once you're at -2), which can wear them down for a teammate to come in and wreak havoc. Even without a deep movepool, you've still got utility in Knock Off, healing in Sythesis or Sleep Powder/Stun Spore for status spreading.

Tangela appreciates teammates who can provide it with Clerical support and take on threatening special attackers. I've been pairing it with Heal Bell Lanturn since they've got amazing type synergy, and also bulky SD Charizard since it stops most rock and ground-types in their tracks. Other things I've seen people pair it with is Mareanie to give Toxic Spikes support (though both of them are skuntank bait for the most part), and also form a neat Regenerator core.

Now Tangela's got its fair share of issues, notably really low special defense (its passable with Eviolite but don't expect it to take Ice Beam's any time soon), and the limited movepool means something will almost always come in for free against it. You drop Sludge Bomb the Lilligant sets up for free. Hidden power choices means that something will always take advantage of you (Ice means fire/steel types, Rock means Ferroseed sets up spikes for free, etc etc). And while regenerator offsets chip it can take, its prone to getting worn down from hazards and also losing its Eviolite.

All in all Tangela slipped a bit from where it sat last gen, but it still has the means to consistently contribute in almsot any matchup. Well minus sun teams/fire spam. Then its death fodder.

Poison Types
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Skuntank: 120-141 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Skuntank: 148-176 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Significant chip without even predicting properly

Absol
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 243-289 (72.7 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Absol Black Hole Eclipse (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You don't want to have it as your only measure against absol but in an emergency you can take the +2 Knock Off. It has to be adamant to deal really significant damage

Gurdurr
252+ SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 129-153 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 223-264 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- 86.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangela: 103-123 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
You can stop a potential Bulk Up sweep with relative impunity (watch out for preemptively losing Eviolite), and even if it has a few Bulk Ups you can whittle it down with Giga Drain into Leaf Storm (its dead with any chip).

Edit: Also question, now that NU banned Aurora Veil is it banned down here as well? Or is it one of those "cross that bridge when we get there" type of deals?
 
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galbia

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PU Leader
#6
PU hype woot woot, glad we got Mesprit back I feel like it'll be constantly rising/falling as we go on with the tier. Gonna share something I've been using over the past few days that seems to be forgotten about on the ladder.

Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power
- Hidden Power / Filler

Tangela is something that I haven't seen much of on the ladder, but still manages to act as a reliable pivot for Balance and Bulky Offensive teams thanks to eviolite boosted defenses+Regenerator backed by reasonable offensive stats. It acts as a nice blanket check to a lot of physical attackers like AV Hitmonchan, Absol, and Gurdurr, even without any Defensive investment. And while most people run Skunk/Weezing as their grass counters, neither one takes Leaf Storm particularly well (and you can just pivot out to get regenerator healing once you're at -2), which can wear them down for a teammate to come in and wreak havoc. Even without a deep movepool, you've still got utility in Knock Off, healing in Sythesis or Sleep Powder/Stun Spore for status spreading.

Tangela appreciates teammates who can provide it with Clerical support and take on threatening special attackers. I've been pairing it with Heal Bell Lanturn since they've got amazing type synergy, and also bulky SD Charizard since it stops most rock and ground-types in their tracks. Other things I've seen people pair it with is Mareanie to give Toxic Spikes support (though both of them are skuntank bait for the most part), and also form a neat Regenerator core.

Now Tangela's got its fair share of issues, notably really low special defense (its passable with Eviolite but don't expect it to take Ice Beam's any time soon), and the limited movepool means something will almost always come in for free against it. You drop Sludge Bomb the Lilligant sets up for free. Hidden power choices means that something will always take advantage of you (Ice means fire/steel types, Rock means Ferroseed sets up spikes for free, etc etc). And while regenerator offsets chip it can take, its prone to getting worn down from hazards and also losing its Eviolite.

All in all Tangela slipped a bit from where it sat last gen, but it still has the means to consistently contribute in almsot any matchup. Well minus sun teams/fire spam. Then its death fodder.

Poison Types
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Skuntank: 120-141 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Skuntank: 148-176 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Significant chip without even predicting properly

Absol
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 243-289 (72.7 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Absol Black Hole Eclipse (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You don't want to have it as your only measure against absol but in an emergency you can take the +2 Knock Off. It has to be adamant to deal really significant damage

Gurdurr
252+ SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 129-153 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 223-264 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- 86.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangela: 103-123 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
You can stop a potential Bulk Up sweep with relative impunity (watch out for preemptively losing Eviolite), and even if it has a few Bulk Ups you can whittle it down with Giga Drain into Leaf Storm (its dead with any chip).

Edit: Also question, now that NU banned Aurora Veil is it banned down here as well? Or is it one of those "cross that bridge when we get there" type of deals?
Thanks for bringing that up.

Aurora Veil by default is banned from PU.
We hypothetically could opt out of the ban but I don't foresee that happening since the main setters (ie Cryogonal) are likely drop down here soon since Aurora Veil was their main niche in NU.
 
#7
Hey guys, I'm so excited that PU is finally upon us and that I've been able to experience it the whole way through, it's honestly been so fun.
I wanted to take a moment to talk about a couple of mons that are VERY strong right now in the meta and exactly what they can do in this certain metagame.


----------------​

First off, one of my favorite mons, Jynx, is ABSURDLY strong right now. Especially with Vanilluxe gone, Jynx stands as a premier special ice/psychic monster and can shred most teams if they are not prepared. Most of the points in my past write-up of Jynx still hold true today, but I wanted to talk about exactly what it can do now that most of it's competition is gone.

Jynx can run around 4 different versatile sets including:
  • Z-Lovely Kiss
  • Focus Sash
  • Choice Scarfed
  • Substitute
  • Choice Specs (can work, but not recommended)
In my opinion, it's Z lovely kiss set is the strongest and is able to break through mons that even resist it. Jynx still stands as one of the best Weezing checks, being able to OHKO it with Psychic or a +2 Ice Beam/Psyshock. As well as this, Jynx has a very good speed tier, especially with Scyther being out of the tier now. It still has to worry about past threats, such as Liepard and now the addition of Archeops, but Jynx as a whole has a very nice speed tier at 95. One of it's best checks still remains priority, but we have a lot less threating ones now with the addition of some new mons. Qwilfish and Mesprit pressure the usage of Hitmonchan as a whole, Absol/Shiftry/Skuntank/Alolacate/Kang still remain with Sucker Punch but you can pivot around that by not using the z lovely on turn 1 if you see those mons still remaining, and you can fit your team to take out the other mons with priority before Jynx even comes out. After all, Jynx functions best as a late game cleaner that can cripple opposing threats while remaining a powerhouse with dual stab that is only resisted by things such as Bronzor. Beyond that, it's focus sash set allows it to remain overall fast while gaining a "double life" as most hits will kill it, and it's Choice Scarf set allows it to be a fast scarfer on a team that needs it. Finally, if more priority becomes common in the meta, a Substitute set can be largely beneficial towards Jynx's longevity by making another form of priority useless against it. Overall, I think that Jynx has ALWAYS been strong in the PU Metagame, and now more than ever, it is a complete monster when used on the right team, so I highly recommended trying one out on your team.


------------​

Alright, so Liepard in my opinion is often overlooked by two mons that do a part of what Liepard does. Most look to Skuntank for sucker punch and dark stab, and Sableye for prankster. However, I believe that Liepard brings together the best of both of these worlds by being able to have a very nice speed tier at 342, outspeeding base 105's, as well as having a pretty strong knock off and sucker punch, as well as access to PRANKSTER ENCORE, which is huge. While it can't burn things like Sableye or absorb TSpikes and hazard clear like Skuntank, I believe that Liepard is still amazingly good in this meta. The availability to singlehandedly shut down stall/set-up mons/hazard setters/force pivots is so huge right now, and Liepard does this with ease thanks to access of Pursuit and momentum in U-Turn as well. I do think this mon is very good, and when you can afford to fit it on your team, it certainly puts in work with either a Utility set or a Choice Band set.



--------------

A new addition to the tier is always welcome, and Archeops is honestly VERY threatening. While it's ability makes it pretty bad after it takes 50%, you can run quite a few sets on it that make it a threat due to it's very nice speed tier at 110, giving it only a select few threats that outspeed it. Thanks to it's 140 Attack stat as well, this thing is the definition of an Assassin, hitting not only monstrously hard but also very fast in our metagame. Due to this, I have enjoyed experimenting with a Choice Banded set, with Earthquake/Stone Edge/U-Turn/Zen Headbutt and foregoing the Flying Stab, however a few more sets can be used such as a Suicide Lead, or a Mixed Attacker. Overall, I think Archeops will be a very interesting addition to our metagame, and very threatening to slower and weaker mons that didn't have this as a threat before, so it will be very interesting to see how it does


Archeops @ Choice Band
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Zen Headbutt/Knock Off
- U-turn
- Earthquake

Jynx (F) @ Normalium Z/Focus Sash
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock/Psychic
- Lovely Kiss

Jynx (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock/Psyshock
- Trick

Liepard @ Black Glasses
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch

*can also include Thunder Wave/Taunt on Liepard

 
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Teddeh

They say I'm up and coming like I'm fucking in an elevator.
is a Tiering Contributor
#8
bad archeops.png


Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off / Defog / Stone edge / taunt
- Earthquake
- Roost

So this is my archeops of set of choice in this meta and i suggest you run this, if you haven't used archeops before as Base 110 acro coming off a base 140 attack, despite no boosting item is nothing to laugh at! By running roost, you're avoiding sucker punches from skuntank. By running taunt, you hard wall weezing and beat it 1v1 as flamethrower or sludge bomb are both resisted! Earthquake to obviously hit rocks / steel types who avoid the flying stab and generally it's one of the most promising breakers / revenge killers in the tier at the moment :toast: By running defog, you're role compacting a lot on the pokemon as often you can defog by forcing a switch and is very clutch late game. I would also stay away from the choice banded sets as the flying / ground coverage is what makes archeops so deadly (at least that's the case in my opinion)...
 
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#9
Here's a poke that I think is very underrated in the tier right now.


Manectric has a nice niche as the hardest hitting specially oriented Electric Type in the tier. 105 special attack coupled with 105 speed means it hits hard and fast. Its movepool isn't gargantuan, but unique Electric/Fire coverage means it can actually put a dent in steel types without having to worry about Focus Blast's accuracy. While it does face competition from other Electric types like Raichu Alola, Oricorio Pom-Pom, it hits harder than Raichu Alola and isn't walled by steel types like Oricorio is. However, Raichu is faster, and Oricorio's flying stab can help a lot in a tier filled with good fighting types.

Manectric @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power Grass
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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#10
View attachment 87801

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off / Defog / Stone edge / taunt
- Earthquake
- Roost

So this is my archeops of set of choice in this meta and i suggest you run this, if you haven't used archeops before as Base 110 acro coming off a base 140 attack, despite no boosting item is nothing to laugh at! By running roost, you're avoiding sucker punches from skuntank. By running taunt, you hard wall weezing and beat it 1v1 as flamethrower or sludge bomb are both resisted! Earthquake to obviously hit rocks / steel types who avoid the flying stab and generally it's one of the most promising breakers / revenge killers in the tier at the moment :toast: By running defog, you're role compacting a lot on the pokemon as often you can defog by forcing a switch and is very clutch late game. I would also stay away from the choice banded sets as the flying / ground coverage is what makes archeops so deadly (at least that's the case in my opinion)...
100% agree with this. By far the best most consistent set. Spammable acro hits the majority of the meta like a truck and archeops gets coverage for everything else.

I've been seeing people run mostly suicide lead, which while alright, only works with certain teams. A lot of the time I've been able to defog a couple of turns later and then its an easy 6-5 in my favor with no rocks. Band is alright but you don't get a good spam move, scarf is good occasionally in the right circumstances and I've seen Flyium-Z bop a couple of ppl early game. Mixed won't come about till later when more dedicated stops come to light and specs will come later.

Summed up agree with Teddeh and use this set :heart:
 

Rwby

@g change my smogon name to lalala memes :33
is a Pre-Contributor
#11
Heya everyone!

Yogi here, just posting about some kewl sets that I've made (or somebody I know has made) or just some underused ones too! I've been playing the meta a lot recently and I really dig how much it's improved since Alpha and how diverse it is and wanted to share some quick brain farts.

---​


Kabutops @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet / Stone Edge

So I originally made this set as a meme, surprise surprise, however I quickly found out how useful it could be. It allowed me to not only set up rocks but also potentially cripple common switch-ins to the Swords Dance and Choice Scarf sets with Toxic (things like Poliwrath and Cradily), along with having Weak Armour and Sash to possibly revenge kill something later on. The last slot in my opinion is a toss up between Aqua Jet and Stone Edge, and I change it around a lot. It's also nice that Kabutops has a good match-up versus most other Stealth Rockers too.


Shiftry @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Leaf Blade
- Rock Slide
- Defog

I really liked this set in ORAS NU and have liked using it during Beta and Post Beta, mainly because it allows for a lot of role compression, which is very useful for more offensive teams that require light hazard control. This set is able to give some element of speed control and allows it to check and revenge kill opposing mons that are usually able to beat it, like Archeops, Charizard, Pyroar, etc whilst also being able to hit Hitmonchan very hard with Leaf Blade. This set is also nice as it semi-checks Sun too!


Kiyo'sGroundResist (Mesprit) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / U-Turn
- Ice Beam
- Signal Beam / Dazzling Gleam / U-Turn
- Psychic

This is pretty much the standard ORAS NU Choice Specs Mesprit set and it's just as effective then as it is now, being able to punch holes through teams without proper resists, of which there are very few and overall being a very hard mon to play around. I would say that Skuntank moving to a more Physical Defog set has slightly affected how good it is but with pressure put on Dark Types by other teammates this mon is deadly.


Swoledies (Regirock) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 16 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Counter

Basically standard Regirock but instead of Leftovers it uses Chople Berry along with Counter. I love this set and find it very underrated, as it's able to chew any Fighting Type move and either cripple the opposing mon, set up Stealth Rocks or just Counter whatever move is thrown at it. Counter also makes it more efficient at blocking mons from sweeping due to its incredible Physical Bulk. Overall a fun set and I'm honestly surprised that not more people are using it.

---​

Right so I kinda also wanted to talk about the state of the current meta too. I think that all-in-all it's a pretty balanced meta due to all of the biggest threats leaving, and has shifted from being as offensive as it was in Alpha and Beta to being a bulkier and slightly slower-paced meta, which is good because it allows Balance to be more playable and has opened the way for more exploration and diversity in teambuilding. I think we currently do have some dominant threats in the meta however, and I'm gonna go into some detail about them now:


Probably the best core in the meta, Weezing and Skuntank put so much pressure on all team archetypes from Stall to Hyper Offense, being able to utilise things like Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Defog, etc. for Skuntank (along with a very good Special set too) and Toxic Spikes, Taunt, Painsplit, etc. for Weezing. I think that these mons are still currently healthy but they are certainly a dominant core that's hard to break with team support.


This mon is still as threatening in Post Beta as it was in Alpha. Access to Z-Moves made it a lot better compared to its ORAS NU version (which was still a solid A/A+ mon at the time), allowing it to break past would-be stops and checks with ease, like Skuntank and Weezing. With Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance at its disposal it's also able to set-up on most things that are slower, as long as they lack certain priority moves, and basically ravage teams late-game.


I've already talked about Mesprit a bit, but no where near enough. It has several equally viable sets that it is able to utilise to support its team such as; Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Defensive Rocks, Offensive Rocks, Sub Calm Mind and Calm Mind 3 Attacks (with some other more niche sets also being used too). The diversity also makes it annoying to scout at times, especially when facing the more offensive sets. Overall this mon is probably the most versatile mon in the entire meta.

---

Overall I'm really happy with the current meta and I am loving laddering and playing, which has been a rarity for me recently :3 I'll probably talk a little more about it but those were just some things off of the top of my head.

I took the colour out because Hjad wont stop bitching about it...

Yogi out, boop!
 
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#12
my turn to share :)


Palossand @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Shore Up

Palossand is great right now, definitely one of the best physical walls in the tier. Palossand counters pokemon such as Archeops, Kangaskhan, Primeape, Lycanroc, Zangoose, DD Charizard, and Hitmonchan. It does face competition from Sableye and Gourgeist but it's sheer bulk easily separates it from the former, and its unique typing offers valuable niches over the latter (not being deathly afraid of fire-types and being able to take on flying types, for example). With access to Shore Up and SR resistance, Palossand is difficult to wear down and it offers surprisingly good offensive presence for a physical wall- the combination of Earth Power + Toxic is very annoying for any kind of team to face.


Qwilfish @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Poison Jab
- Aqua Jet
- Explosion / Toxic Spikes / Spikes

Qwilfish @ Poisonium Z / Waterium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Poison Jab
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet

Qwilfish @ Poisonium Z / Waterium Z
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab
- Waterfall
- Taunt

Qwilfish is one of the most common pokemon right now, but most people don't consider that it can run very viable offensive sets. Qwilfish has a perfectly usable attack and speed, and poison/water is actually a strong offensive combination. Because people automatically assume Qwilfish to be passive it isn't hard for it to easily lure pokemon like Mesprit, Lanturn, or Drampa. Qwilfish can run a nice Choice Banded set similar to the one Skuntank runs, taking advantage of its nice typing and ability to get switch-in opportunities and crush stuff. If you still want Spikes, Qwilfish can also run a more offensive Spiker set with a Z-move and priority to punch some holes against offensive teams while also getting Spikes up. Qwilfish can also run a SD set that busts through the bulkiest of threats. While it can't run SD with Intimidate or Aqua Jet, which sucks and takes away any potential of being a Samurott-like threat, it can run Taunt to have perfect coverage and even break stall. You also can run Rain Dance but I'm not sure how effective that is not on a rain team.


Abomasnow @ Life Orb
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Mild Nature
- Giga Drain
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast / Earthquake
- Substitute

Abomasnow has already been talked about a ton because we all know it's a fantastic special wallbreaker. I just wanted to add that since Aboma's coverage is already so good, it can run Substitute in its final slot. Abomasnow forces so many switches and sacks against slower teams, as people try to jump around its STABs with predictions, which makes it not too difficult to get a free Sub up vs something like Piloswine and go to work. Other moveslots are valuable as well, but it's something to consider.


Guzzlord @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy / Careful Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Dark Pulse / Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This guy gets some recognition for his Choice Specs set and AV set, but I think we've reached a point in the meta where a defensive Guzzlord set can also shine. This fat phazing set is actually supremely annoying when paired with Spikes and other hazards, which are very easy to get up with stuff like Qwilfish, Weezing, and Ferroseed being so good. Guzz makes a nice blanket check to a lot of special attackers and even some physical attackers, like Skuntank and Regirock. With Leftovers and Rest-Talk, its bigness weakness of being worn down easily is taken right out of the window. Though it lacks offensive presence, with Spikes support and the right teammates, Rest-Talk Guzzlord can put in a ton of work.
 
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#13
Hello, ladies and gents of the smogon forums! Since I just made my account today, I figured I would start off by posting about a mon that I have been using to decent success lately.

Simisage @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (There would be a sprite here, but I don't know how to get them
Jolly Nature on a tablet.)
- Seed Bomb
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off/Superpower
- Rock Slide

This set is useful for revenge killing weakened mons and baiting in Charizard, which would typically walk all over a grass type. Seed Bomb is the STAB move of choice, getting decent neutral coverage. Gunk Shot is to steamroll Grass-types, such as liligant (sorry if I spelled that wrong). The third slot depends on what you want simisage to hit. Knock Off is a great utility move, hitting targets for decent damage and removing their item, which is especially helpful against mons like dusclops. Superpower can hit the steel types that wall simisage, such as ferroseed. However, the attack and defense drop leave simisage a sitting duck, so switching after using superpower is necessary most of the time. Rock slide is used to surprise the aforementioned charizard, along with many other flying- and fire-types. Some weaknesses of the set would be a weakness to being revenge killed, especially if simisage carries superpower, and a weakness to priority, due to simisage's poor bulk. I hope that this post informed you of an underappreciated mon that is definitely worth trying out!
 
#14
It's been a while since I've made a (decent) post around here. Why not now?

Meowstic-M_XY.gif

Meowstic @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Psychic
- Signal Beam/Shadow Ball

In my eyes, Dual Screens is just as good, if not better than Aurora Veil in certain situations. People always say that it's easier to break, but really, unless you face off against Mixed LO Absol or something stupid like that, Meowstic can easily set up both screens thanks to Prankster: Just set up the screen corresponding to your foe's best attacking type, and set up the other one immediately afterward. Meowstic is not perfect, though: It's power is underwhelming even with investment, and Knock Off is the bane of it's existance. And yes, I know Electrode exists, but I haven't gotten around to trying it.

Mesprit_XY.gif

Mesprit @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Ice Beam

Mesprit is a Pokemon renowned for it's versatility, so I figured "why not a sweeping set?" So I tried it on my Webs + Dual Screens team, and it works pretty well. Unlike Beheeyem, it has an actually usable Speed tier, meaning it isn't death fodder outside of Trick Room, and unlike Jynx, Kadabra, Alolan Raichu and Swoobat, it actually has good bulk and a nice defensive ability, giving it far more opportunities to set up. Again, not bad at all.

Pawniard_XY.gif

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch

Pawniard is a prime example of a Pokemon that really fell off in usage from last gen, which is sad, because I like it, and firmly believe it is still more than usable. If/when you bring this guy up, you'll frequently hear it being compared to Skuntank and Absol. I personally think this is an extremely unfair comparison, because Pawniard serves a completely different niche than those two. While Skuntank insures that not a single hazard gets on your side of the field and Absol slaughters everything that doesn't outspeed/tank it, Pawniard instead punishes hazard removal with Defiant. In fact, Pawniard has great match-ups against a number of prominent Defoggers, such as Lurantis, Non-Fire Blast Skuntank, Shiftry and Archeops if you are healthy enough to tank EQ. Does the opponent outspeed and do big damage? Then go to town with Sucker Punch. I dunno about other people, but every single time I've gotten this bad boy in on Sticky Webs or on a Defog, it always nets at LEAST one KO. However, there is a reason why this guy has sunken to not even being in the top 100 for usage. It's bulk, while decent in ORAS, has a hard time keeping up with all the powerful new stuff that dropped down this generation. It's typing also does it zero favors in a meta infested with Fighting types. Finally, it can be rather weak without a SD/Defiant boost. Ah well, you can call it outclassed all you want, I still luv it. <3
 
#15
So I wanted to get more active in this Forum and I thought I could do a post now. A post about the biggest thread in the metagame atm:

Toxic spikes


Tspikes are imo too much for the meta as it is at the Moment. The lack of reliable hazard removal and the existence of two great tspikers in weezing and qwilfish make tspikes extremely splashable and a big threat that you always have to think about when you build a Team. Tspikes are one of the most reliable ways to wear the opponents checks to your pokemon down, while having nearly no drawback if you use them, because both, weezing and qwilfish can still be important checks to common physical attacker like primeape. I dont think that tspikes or hazard spam in General would be a big Problem if we would have removers that wouldnt be so weak to hazards or weak and easy to wear down in General. This means, that you always have to Play a grounded poison type and grounded poison types are again, easily worn down. This Limits teambuilding heavily and even well prepared Teams have Problems when dealing with tspikes. And thats in my opinion just too much for pu. Walls and checks are just too easily worn down and with tspikes up, combined with some good spinblockers like oricorio, the Opponent has a hard time dealing with tspikes and when the opponents main check to one of your pokemon is poisoned, he will have a hard time against your main sweeper. This is just too easy and Pokemon like type null, Vigoroth or any other Setup Mons can be broken in many situations, because their main checks are destroyed by bad poison.

PU has still ways to beat tspikes and doubting that is not what I want to do. You have to get them on the field first and you have to provide enough Support for them to stay, mainly because tjhe main Setters in qwilfish and weezing dont have a good Access to reliable recovery except for z-haze and pain split. But I still think that tspikes are extremely unhealthy for this meta. It limits teambuilding extremely and hazard spam with tspikes is one of the most centralizing playstyles of this metagame. And thats why I think that a ban of the move tspikes would be healthy for the Moment, until we will get some more removers and some removers who have a easy way to deal with tspikes like claydol.

btw sry for my english I wrote this pretty quickly.
 
#16
Toxic Spikes are nowhere near broken. You say that one of the reasons for this is that there aren't very many hazard removers in PU, but this is not the case. Hitmonchan, Komala, Sandslash, Armaldo, etc are all very viable spinners that are very common on teams, and Skuntank and Shiftry are very reliable defoggers. Not only that, but Skunktank and Qwilfish are very common pokemon that literally get rid of toxic spikes just by switching in.

Toxic Spikes aren't even the best entry hazard, in fact, I think it's the worst (some people would probably argue that webs are but I personally don't think so). Not saying it should be banned either, but Stealth Rock is miles better than Toxic Spikes. There are a lot more stealth rock users to choose from when compared to Toxic Spikes, you only need to set it up once as opposed to toxic spikes which you need to set up twice, and Stealth Rock has a better effect, dealing entry hazard damage to any Pokemon that switches in, regardless of type.

So I wanted to get more active in this Forum and I thought I could do a post now. A post about the biggest thread in the metagame atm:

Toxic spikes


Tspikes are imo too much for the meta as it is at the Moment. The lack of reliable hazard removal and the existence of two great tspikers in weezing and qwilfish make tspikes extremely splashable and a big threat that you always have to think about when you build a Team. Tspikes are one of the most reliable ways to wear the opponents checks to your pokemon down, while having nearly no drawback if you use them, because both, weezing and qwilfish can still be important checks to common physical attacker like primeape. I dont think that tspikes or hazard spam in General would be a big Problem if we would have removers that wouldnt be so weak to hazards or weak and easy to wear down in General. This means, that you always have to Play a grounded poison type and grounded poison types are again, easily worn down. This Limits teambuilding heavily and even well prepared Teams have Problems when dealing with tspikes. And thats in my opinion just too much for pu. Walls and checks are just too easily worn down and with tspikes up, combined with some good spinblockers like oricorio, the Opponent has a hard time dealing with tspikes and when the opponents main check to one of your pokemon is poisoned, he will have a hard time against your main sweeper. This is just too easy and Pokemon like type null, Vigoroth or any other Setup Mons can be broken in many situations, because their main checks are destroyed by bad poison.

PU has still ways to beat tspikes and doubting that is not what I want to do. You have to get them on the field first and you have to provide enough Support for them to stay, mainly because tjhe main Setters in qwilfish and weezing dont have a good Access to reliable recovery except for z-haze and pain split. But I still think that tspikes are extremely unhealthy for this meta. It limits teambuilding extremely and hazard spam with tspikes is one of the most centralizing playstyles of this metagame. And thats why I think that a ban of the move tspikes would be healthy for the Moment, until we will get some more removers and some removers who have a easy way to deal with tspikes like claydol.

btw sry for my english I wrote this pretty quickly.
 
#17
Toxic Spikes are nowhere near broken. You say that one of the reasons for this is that there aren't very many hazard removers in PU, but this is not the case. Hitmonchan, Komala, Sandslash, Armaldo, etc are all very viable spinners that are very common on teams, and Skuntank and Shiftry are very reliable defoggers. Not only that, but Skunktank and Qwilfish are very common pokemon that literally get rid of toxic spikes just by switching in.

Toxic Spikes aren't even the best entry hazard, in fact, I think it's the worst (some people would probably argue that webs are but I personally don't think so). Not saying it should be banned either, but Stealth Rock is miles better than Toxic Spikes. There are a lot more stealth rock users to choose from when compared to Toxic Spikes, you only need to set it up once as opposed to toxic spikes which you need to set up twice, and Stealth Rock has a better effect, dealing entry hazard damage to any Pokemon that switches in, regardless of type.
Keeping Hazard on opponent's field is easier than you think. Hitmonchan, Komala, Sandslash, Armaldo and Avalugg all lose to common spinblockers in Sableye (bar Foresigh Hitmonchan, Lum Berry SD Sandslash and Play Rough Komala), Silvally Ghost and Misdreavus (bar Armaldo). Skuntank and Shiftry lose to Primeape. Also Lurantis loses to Weezing and Qwilfish taunts Vullaby, Prinplup, Lumineon and Vibrava. Swanna can defog on both but fears Scarf Stone Edge from Primeape and Silvally Ghost Thunderbolt. Yes, none of these Pokémon have access to recovery bar Z-Haze and Pain Split but Qwilfish and Weezing pair well with our Wishers (Komala, Audino and Togedemaru).

Edit: MonfernoInferno pointed me out that Lum Berry SD Sandslash beats Sableye.
 
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#18
I honestly feel as though Toxic Spikes aren't the issue, it's the fact that we have so many reliable spinblockers and a great way to punish Defog with Primeape. Offensive pressure combined with Toxic Spikes is a deadly combo, and makes it hard for spinners and defogers to get the job done.
Even one of the most sturdy spinners in the tier, Komala, can be pressured very hard. If the opposing team carries a spinblocker, it can become a mind game of predicting whether to spin, anticipating a switch into an offensive mon, or to use U turn and pivot out, expecting a spinblocker.
And I know what you're thinking. Why not just use U-turn if you even slightly suspect the opponent will go for a spinblocker? The opponent also has the ability to predict, and can punish accordingly, especially if the opposing team has a mon you don't have a reliable check for. However, with all that said, Toxic Spikes is far from unbeatable. Skuntank, one of the best mons in the tier right now, can remove toxic spikes by simply switching in. It also scares out weezing, since weezing will take heavy damage from Dark Pulse, and can't really do much except burn Skuntank. There are also moves that can shut down toxic spikes. Taunt is a guaranteed way to keep hazards off the field for a few turns, and can shut down weezing. Hazard removal is, while stated above to be difficult to get off with high offensive pressure, still a guaranteed way to remove hazards, and swanna, a great defoger right now, can hit weezing hard with a STAB Hurricane. This was just my two cents on the issue, and I look forward to seeing other people's responses. (P.S. I consider myself decently knowledgeable about the meta game, but please point out any mistakes I may have made with this post. Thanks :) ) Edit: Qwilfish can be put in wherever weezing is mentioned as well.
 
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#19
I think Toxic Spikes are quite unhealthy in this metagame, to be honest.The main problem with Toxic Spikes is the sheer amount of pressure it puts on teams, notably putting in work versus basically every playstyle, from HO to Stall. While the hazard removal is at its best right now, our Toxic Spikers easily find switch in opportunities versus top tier mons such as Hitmonchan, Granbull, Physical Skuntank and etc. in order to set them again. From that point, offensive pressure is very easy to apply so that our removers can't do their job; not to mention how much the setters on their own pressure defoggers: both are able to Taunt slower defoggers (Weezing ties/is outsped by some of the somewhat slow ones such as Vibrava/Lumineon, unless it runs speed), Thunder Wave from Qwilfish discouraging the switch in of more offensively-based removal like Swanna and Kabutops, aswell as Weezing's Sludge Bomb, which hits decently hard and can fish for poisons. The reliability of said Spikers is also a must: they check a huge portion of the tier. Therefore, they get multiple opportunities to switch in and start laying hazards. The problem with Toxic Spikes is that it's way more difficult to bear with, and the main setters aren't as easy to pressure as setters for regular Spikes (sans Qwilfish who gets both hazards, although it is hard to pressure it). The lack of grounded poison types is also noticeable, with Skuntank being the only noteworthy one. That being said, Physical variants do lose to both setters unless it runs Taunt AND it's in a 1v1 situation (Qwilfish can still fish for Scald Burns, though); Special beats both 1v1, but risks getting paralyzed by Qwil or even lured by an offensive variant and dying because of Explosion. Spinblocking is also significantly easier right now: a strong offensive behemoth in Haunter that pressures half of the tier; the mix of bulk and power plus pivoting that Silvally-Ghost provides; Golurk's access to SR and electric immunity, along with great offensive presence or even Sableye's power of blanket checking so much and stallbreaking with Taunt + Wow, or even serving as a wincon with its CM set. So, considering most defoggers are beaten 1v1, the few spinners left are easily spinblocked by those common ghost-types ran on archetypes that include Toxic Spikes, making it even more difficult to get them out of your field.

tl; dr: Toxic Spikes are unhealthy because of the reliability of the setters, both of which check and set up on a big portion of the tier and how well they fare versus our common removal. The lack of grounded poison types also helps with this issue coupled with spinblockers easily dealing with the few removers those spikers don't fare well against may prove to be too much for PU.
 

Teddeh

They say I'm up and coming like I'm fucking in an elevator.
is a Tiering Contributor
#20
I don't think t-spikes are too much for our meta and the drops we recently got from the tier really balanced it out, nor do I think that anything should be done.

Firstly, we have 2 setters main of t-spikes, admittedly they are good pokemon, but neither of them are broken in their own right and we are not even going to consider a complex ban for t-spikes since not every pokemon that gets access to t-spikes is broken, i/e beedrill for example.
Secondly, all 3 drops we recently got from NU help so much vs them that they got significantly worse via the tier shifts. Not to mention the top 3 pokemon in the tier; being mesprit, archeops and Skuntank, are all not affected by them.
Thirdly, the amount of specially attacking breakers in the tier atm, qwilfish and weezing are so easy to take advantage of with either pyroar, specsprit, guzzlord etc.

I really don't think there is too much of an issue surrounding t-spikes and I think it's hugely exaggerated. It's the vulnerability of using hitmonchan as your main answer for hazards, if you want to run a team less weak to t-spikes? pair it with a grounded poison type, skuntank / qwil / muk are all good pokemon atm.

Now I've posted my 2 cents, i highly suggest we don't ask for a t-spike suspect, for the same reasons i mentioned earlier in this post, it's not broken on every pokemon in the tier that gets access to t-spikes, it would create a complex ban situation and no one wants the same drama we had surrounding dynamic punch back in ORAS.
 

galbia

ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS
is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
PU Leader
#21
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ss-round-5-voting.3615232/page-5#post-7513063
A bit late but as a result of the last OU tiering decision Arena Trap Trapinch (and Diglett) is no longer allowed in PU. Free your Muks and Skuntanks I guess.

Why won't you do anything about it?!? Trapinch (and Diglett) for sure wasn't broken!?!
We will not break transitivity on this one for the foreseeable future since Smogon tiering policy in the last few months has taken a solid position against trapping abilities and I don't see why PU should go against it to save a niche threat. Also with Dugtrio looking to join us in the near future I don't see the point to take a decision that will have to be overturned shortly.


So yeah rip
 

TSR

dead blue
is a Tiering Contributor
#22
Hey there everyone, I might not be in the PU open thing anymore but I still feel somewhat invested in playing this tier because it's the only one that isn't objectively awful atm. There hasn't been a whole ton of discussion in this thread just yet which kinda makes sense as the tier is fresh out of beta, but I have to say I was fairly surprised to see the only discussion was on the prospect of banning Toxic Spikes. I think it boils down to Weezing being stupidly good and being able to easily shrug off most of the hazard control in the tier rather than the mechanics of TSpikes being too much for the tier. Also use Mareanie everyone, it's very good for teams with TSpikes issues, all the while providing you with some sick Tspikes of your own.

Onto the main issue I really wanna bring up with this post: Charizard.


How'd this not get banned in beta lmao. Maybe I'm missing some amazing counter to this thing and am completely blowing this out of proportion, but i find this mon incredibly dumb to try to play around since both of its broken sets (Specs and DD) aren't easy to determine from preview since they end up taking advantage of similar common mons i.e. Gurdurr, Skuntank, Lilligant, etc in a lot of common scenarios. Much like when Xurkitree was UU, the moment it outspeeds something it's pretty likely that it's gonna have an opportunity to do some massive damage. Unlike Xurkitree however, this mon outspeeds a good portion of the unboosted metagame, including many common offensive threats, and has an even wider range of coverage (given Xurk's was essentially perfect) and on top of it all it is by no means one-dimensional and can viably run waaaay more than the two most established sets (don't quote me on that, these are just the ones that stand out the most to me). As icing on the cake, its bulk is above average, if only by a bit. I know a couple people think Zard is ridiculous like I do but again I was pretty surprised to see discussion on it non-existent here.

Charizard @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Focus Blast
- Focus Blast / Roost

calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 339-399 (96.3 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 148-175 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 75.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (real talk have you ever seen this piece of shit die in 1 hit?????)



A simple set but extremely effective. Focus Blast and HP Grass nuke the shit out of what would otherwise be solid switchins like Carracosta and Regirock, it's dual STAB takes care of the rest except for like max SpD Altaria (good set D:), but only if rocks aren't up (not hard with other brokens like Piloswine). With some decent prediction, there aren't very many long term defensive answers that can take this on for more than a few turns. Not to mention that TSpikes are usually extremely helpful to this set as it's few solid checks (Regirock and Lanturn) are grounded and often end up taking a good amount of residual damage throughout a game. This set alone is probably enough to ban imo.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-632650421 - here I play a bad with stall and zard dies early because why wouldn't he crit poison in the first 10 turns amirite lmfao. Salt aside, just look at that damage Zard did to Audino. Zard easily destroying Audino let Skuntank pick it off meaning that half of his Eggy countermeasures are gone and with Mawile to take on Togetic i slowly but surely break it down and Alolan Eggy cleaves through the rest lategame.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-628815099 - Zard and Guzzlord just being busted (seriously how does anyone think GUZZ-SAMA ;W; is only B rank? wtf :I)

Charizard @ Firium Z / Flyinium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Roost / Fly


This set is a bit less dumb than Specs since it has a few clearly defined counters but it's still a devasating wallbreaker and wincon. +1 Inferno Overdrive or SSSS is absurdly strong and only a handful of Scarfers can actually revenge a Zard at +1, and the few viable choices like Pyroar has to hit it with otherwise niche move choices like HP Rock to safely KO it. Switching my Lanturn into 252 Atk EQ when iI was expecting a special set has to be one of my least favorite things about any SM tier in general, tbqh.

As far as I know I'm not the only one with these sentiments, but hopefully this can get some more discussion stirring about something more substantial than banning TSpikes. I know this post is a bit short for trying to explain why something is broken and simply pales in comparison to my essay on Xurkitree from about two months ago, but I thought it'd be best to just bring something up to start with in this case. If any PU regulars have more substantial input for either side than I do that'd be great for this argument. In my opinion, this mon is very objectively unhealthy for PU and unlike Xurkitree, which had arguably more complex dynamics in actual games, I find it unreasonably hard to play around unless you're stacked with Water-, Electric-, and Rock-type threats to slam it as hard and fast as possible.

Bulky SD:

Charizard
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

More conservative wincon that can also effectively double as a solid pivot vs threats like Gurdurr and Shiftry. Probably A - A- rank imo.

Mixed Celebrate:

Charizard @ Normalium Z
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Celebrate
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Boosts it's bulk to silly levels and kills all it's would be counters except for like, Swanna lol. I'd give it A- since it's pretty hit or miss.

Backup defogger:

Charizard @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Def / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Defog

Use this on a stall, Lurantis, + Zard + Mareanie pretty efficiently cockblocks just about every hazard setter unless you face rock move Piloswine. Probably B+ - B tbh.

GSC Drumzard but SM PU

Charizard @ z move or somethin
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Flame Charge
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Probably a set with Quagsire going to RU....probably....doubt it'd be dead weight in every game because it's Zard.


With that, that completes just about everything I had to say on this topic. I'll probably return to make a post on some other stuff when I get really fed up of UU again lmao. Ban Zard!
 

galbia

ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS
is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
PU Leader
#23
(TOTALLY not related to the post above)


The council is going to have a council vote (the last one i promise there will be a suspect soon) on Charizard in the next few days. It's a very big and controversial threat that has very little counterplay so we decided to deal with it sooner rather than later. We will be picking a few users for the rotating council once again so stay tuned for that!
 

Taskr

Wanna Know
is a Pre-Contributor
#24
I just want to make a post about what I think are some good Pokemon in the metagame right now and explain why.



Lycanroc @ Rockium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Brick Break
- Accelerock


Lycanroc is able to put a lot of pressure on Offensive teams that usually don't pack sturdy Rock resists. Charizard being very common now only helps Lycanroc's viability as it's able to check even Z Celebrate Charizard variants after a little chip damage with Accelerock's priority.
Outspeeding Archeops and being able to threaten it with super effective Stone Edges is another great trait to have and this can really take advantage of teams that run Archeops as their fastest Pokemon. Scarfers such as Jynx, Oricorio and Pyroar struggle to check this Pokemon at +2 as they can all be hit super effectively by Accelerock.

  • 252 Atk Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 300-352 (101 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 Atk Lycanroc Accelerock vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 204-240 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Accelerock vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 265-312 (89.2 - 105%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
  • 252 Atk Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 270-318 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
  • +2 252 Atk Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pyroar: 314-372 (100.3 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 252 Atk Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Ghost: 320-380 (109.9 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO





Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor


Guzzlord is picking up a bit more traction now, especially in PUPL were it is 7th on the week 1 usage statistics. Guzzord is really hard Pokemon to switch into, a lot of teams don't pack Dragon resists as Fairy and Steel types are scarce in this meta, although both can be hit by Fire Blast and Sludge Wave respectively. It's bulk combined with the Dark/Dragon typing mean it's a great check to Fire, Grass and Electric types in the tier.



Abomasnow @ Life Orb
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Blizzard


Abomasnow functions somewhat similarly to Guzzlord in that it's a good special wallbreaker. Ice resists on teams generally consist of Lanturn and Piloswine which Abomasnow loves as it can beat them both with Giga Drain. Ice Shard is handy for picking off weakened Lilligants and Earthquake is nice coverage for Steel/Fire Type Pokemon like Aggron or Magmortar.
 
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#25
we got some good new additions but let me discuss the quick-ban real quick. medicham with pure power plus band or scarf respectively had few switch-ins. sableye and a few bulky psychic like musharna and defensive mesprit. It had average speed because it hit so hard was difficult to revenge kill without losing a teammate or two. its defenses were pretty bad but this is overlooked by its extravagant wall-breaking capabilities; it was able to break through stall balance and some bulky offense as well because of its sheer power. Mesprit is a great new addition as it can serve many roles in the tier. Its a great rocker but can also be a wall-breaker with choice specs or a revenge killer with scarf. it also gives the tier a good healing wish user to support offensive pokemon. physical sets with choice band and calm mind sets with z-moves or other items can be possible as well but i think choice specs and stealth rock set would be the most popular. we got a nice wall-breaker in archeops which can run acrobatics sets and/or lead sets. other sets that you can mess around with include switcheroo plus choice item or z sky attack maybe which is pretty bad out side of a one time nuke. Finally, we got a great spike and toxic spike user in qwilfish. i can see it using the taunt double or single spike set. outside of a hazard setter; its best role, it can probably run something like swords dance into z-move as it has decent attack and decent speed by pu standards and can set up on physical attackers with intimidate plus its decent defense.