np: SUMO UU Stage 2 - Countdown

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Well I will not talk about Weavile cuz I agree with most the previous post but I would like to extend on Buzzwole X Xurkitree.

Tbh I trully think Buzzwole is not the biggest problem in Underused right now and Xurkitree is clearly more broken since it obliterate on is own a whole archetype aka Stall. I've testing some stalls on the ladder and it's amazing how it's barely impossible to deal with Xurkitree. Maybe you think Latias is a good answer on stall but with Pursuit users everywhere (Muk Alola, Weavile, Krook etc..) it's really hard to keep Latias alive for checking Xurkitree. After a Tail Glow, Xurkitree is brainless vs Stall, the opponent just have to click X and you lose a Pokemon or lose your Electric immunity the next turn. But Xurkitree doesn't shine only vs Stall, it basically pressure every single team and Pokemon slower than him and even if is Speed is not good, it's enough to pressure a huge majority of the bulky Pokemon. So what we do ? We run speed on our Pokemon to outspeed this thing like people who need to run fast Gliscor to outspeed Xurkitree (and often, they run enough to outspeed Nidoking too since the difference beetween this two isn't huge : 160 EV with Jolly Nature to outspeed Xurkitree Timid and 176 EV still Jolly Nature to outspeed max speed Nidoking).

Buzzwole is far different from Xurkitree. As pif said, I think Buzzwole is a Clefable-Like, it check a lot of thing without being passive and I clearly think it's healthy for Underused right now because there is so much threat to deal with.

To finish this post I'd like to show you a thing that I've tested on the ladder and It's kinda fun (clearly it's just a thing to use for fun I guess since it's very match-up dependant).


HungryLips (Trapinch) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Quick Attack / What ever you want

It's one of the Pokemon I tested to deal with Xurkitree / Raikou and tbh is meh but fun to use. If it come on Electric attack (and Xurkitree / Raikou aren't set-up) Trapinch win it's one vs one.

252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 92-110 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- 83.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 92-110 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Xurkitree Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 84-100 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 54.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 124-148 (42.3 - 50.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xurkitree: 288-338 (93.8 - 110%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

[if you opponent is a random and he's running Energy Ball on Xurkitree then you're f*cked as you can see :
252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 186-220 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]

So don't made me said what I don't have say (lol idk if u understand the idea), Trapinch is not a viable Pokemon in UnderUsed (or maybe C-------------), just a fun Pokemon to use >o>
 
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Well I will not talk about Weavile cuz I agree with most the previous post but I would like to extend on Buzzwole X Xurkitree.

Tbh I trully think Buzzwole is not the biggest problem in Underused right now and Xurkitree is clearly more broken since it obliterate on is own a whole archetype aka Stall. I've testing some stalls on the ladder and it's amazing how it's barely impossible to deal with Xurkitree. Maybe you think Latias is a good answer on stall but with Pursuit users everywhere (Muk Alola, Weavile, Krook etc..) it's really hard to keep Latias alive for checking Xurkitree. After a Tail Glow, Xurkitree is brainless vs Stall, the opponent just have to click X and you lose a Pokemon or lose your Electric immunity the next turn. But Xurkitree doesn't shine only vs Stall, it basically pressure every single team and Pokemon slower than him and even if is Speed is not good, it's enough to pressure a huge majority of the bulky Pokemon. So what we do ? We run speed on our Pokemon to outspeed this thing like people who need to run fast Gliscor to outspeed Xurkitree (and often, they run enough to outspeed Nidoking too since the difference beetween this two isn't huge : 160 EV with Jolly Nature to outspeed Xurkitree Timid and 176 EV still Jolly Nature to outspeed max speed Nidoking).

Buzzwole is far different from Xurkitree. As pif said, I think Buzzwole is a Clefable-Like, it check a lot of thing without being passive and I clearly think it's healthy for Underused right now because there is so much threat to deal with.

To finish this post I'd like to show you a thing that I've tested on the ladder and It's kinda fun (clearly it's just a thing to use for fun I guess since it's very match-up dependant).


HungryLips (Trapinch) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Quick Attack / What ever you want

It's one of the Pokemon I tested to deal with Xurkitree / Raikou and tbh is meh but fun to use. If it come on Electric attack (and Xurkitree / Raikou aren't set-up) Trapinch win it's one vs one.

252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 92-110 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- 83.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 92-110 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Xurkitree Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 84-100 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 54.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 124-148 (42.3 - 50.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xurkitree: 288-338 (93.8 - 110%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

[if you opponent is a random and he's running Energy Ball on Xurkitree then you're f*cked as you can see :
252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 186-220 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]

So don't made me said what I don't have say (lol idk if u understand the idea), Trapinch is not a viable Pokemon on UnderUsed (or maybe C-------------), just a fun Pokemon to use >o>
you can also trap alomomola
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 66-80 (22.4 - 27.2%)
but get 3HKO by guagsire and blissey ;-;.
 
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Well I will not talk about Weavile cuz I agree with most the previous post but I would like to extend on Buzzwole X Xurkitree.

Tbh I trully think Buzzwole is not the biggest problem in Underused right now and Xurkitree is clearly more broken since it obliterate on is own a whole archetype aka Stall. I've testing some stalls on the ladder and it's amazing how it's barely impossible to deal with Xurkitree. Maybe you think Latias is a good answer on stall but with Pursuit users everywhere (Muk Alola, Weavile, Krook etc..) it's really hard to keep Latias alive for checking Xurkitree. After a Tail Glow, Xurkitree is brainless vs Stall, the opponent just have to click X and you lose a Pokemon or lose your Electric immunity the next turn. But Xurkitree doesn't shine only vs Stall, it basically pressure every single team and Pokemon slower than him and even if is Speed is not good, it's enough to pressure a huge majority of the bulky Pokemon. So what we do ? We run speed on our Pokemon to outspeed this thing like people who need to run fast Gliscor to outspeed Xurkitree (and often, they run enough to outspeed Nidoking too since the difference beetween this two isn't huge : 160 EV with Jolly Nature to outspeed Xurkitree Timid and 176 EV still Jolly Nature to outspeed max speed Nidoking).

Buzzwole is far different from Xurkitree. As pif said, I think Buzzwole is a Clefable-Like, it check a lot of thing without being passive and I clearly think it's healthy for Underused right now because there is so much threat to deal with.

To finish this post I'd like to show you a thing that I've tested on the ladder and It's kinda fun (clearly it's just a thing to use for fun I guess since it's very match-up dependant).


HungryLips (Trapinch) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Quick Attack / What ever you want

It's one of the Pokemon I tested to deal with Xurkitree / Raikou and tbh is meh but fun to use. If it come on Electric attack (and Xurkitree / Raikou aren't set-up) Trapinch win it's one vs one.

252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 92-110 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- 83.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 92-110 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Xurkitree Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 84-100 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 54.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 124-148 (42.3 - 50.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xurkitree: 288-338 (93.8 - 110%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

[if you opponent is a random and he's running Energy Ball on Xurkitree then you're f*cked as you can see :
252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 186-220 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]

So don't made me said what I don't have say (lol idk if u understand the idea), Trapinch is not a viable Pokemon in UnderUsed (or maybe C-------------), just a fun Pokemon to use >o>
Sure, Xurkitree dominates stall, but it completely fails against any sort of offensive play style. I also don't see a problem with fast gliscor since as you mention people run 176 jolly to outspeed Nido, which is much more useful than just creeping Xurk. The main problem with Buzzwole, is that it neuters physical attackers with its sheer bulk, can pick and choose counters with ridiculous coverage z moves and has monster attack stat also,something even Clefable doesn't have. I feel something that fits on every play style, puts you at a supreme disadvantage for not using it. makes every team better, and checks every physical attacker not supereffective when otherwise they would be amazing is inherently the definition of centralizing. Your argument about more pursuit trappers to deter Latias is also flawed since excellent stall players like pokeisfun and hjkhj will recognize the pursuit trapper and play more carefully with Latias. Not to say Xurkitree doesn't cause stall problems but I do think it can be played around the wish passing on stall being a thing. Another thing I would like to bring up is how I don't feel Xurk entirely invalidates stall as a play style, as many people (including myself) have thought in the past, I believe Xurkitree raises the skill barrier for successful stall, which is a necessary thing in my opinion as higher ladder players know the prevelance of the play style 1500+, this all is theoretical but I feel there is the possibility might spur metagame creativity in what stall runs, but also increase the amount of offense teams so it isn't stall all of the time which could ultimately have a positive effect on the meta.

I also don't think Trapinch deserves a place on the VRs or the UU tier, you lose to Raikou if it has a Z move and you have taken some prior damage :
+1 252 SpA Raikou Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 228-269 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


+1 252 SpA Raikou Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 182-215 (61.9 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


And your Xurkitree examples really only apply to the Scarf set which isn't really a good set anyway:

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 308-364 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 206-244 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 186-220 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


But that's all, hoped you learned something while reading this and I sincerely hope you're not using Trapinch seriously. :)
 
"It's one of the Pokemon I tested to deal with Xurkitree / Raikou and tbh is meh but fun to use. If it come on Electric attack (and Xurkitree / Raikou aren't set-up) Trapinch win it's one vs one."

I love when people don't read me ;_;

You said that Buzzwole can be good in every playstyle but that was clearly the case of Clefable. Stall, Balanced or even Offense (CM LO for exemple or 3 atk + softboiled were a thing). So imo Buzzwole is clearly like Clefable. A gr8 versatile Pokemon.
For Xurkitree, I don't think I'm a dumb player and we're not stupid when we play Stall but Xurkitree + Pursuit is a real pain because if you let Xurkitree set-up it's most of the time the end since 0 Pokemon in Stall team can handle this thing when it's set-up. It force so much 50/50 and stall don't like 50/50..

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Latias: 350-412 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 679-801 (95 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 444-522 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(the other Pokemon get absolutely rekt by the coverage Grass Knot + HP Ice or regular T-Bolt even if Xurkitree isn't set-up..).

PS : Sure Trapinch is a bad mon I just said it was kinda fun to use.
 
to steer away from this trap inch talk, i feel like i wanna add a bit about buzzwole

everybody pretty much knows what it does and how good it is, and some might say its like not broken or overpowered while others think its bulk and power make it way too versatile for this tier so like whatever we all know its at least very good.
but besides that, i feel like buzzwole is almost reaching primal groudon status in ORAS in terms of how nearly every team can easily benefit from just slapping a buzzwole on there.
like HO? run a stall breaker set, or just z move focus punch to pivot and wreck on a physical mon
bulky offense? nearly perfect fit with sub lefties, focus punch (with/out z), phys def even
balanced? also nearly perfect fit, gr8 role compression with its phys def bulk and power
fat/semi stall? also perfect fit
stall? p e r f e c t f i t u can run phys def with toxic, spdef bulk up i guess with cleric support

like almost any team can benefit from having an amazing physical check to top threats while still sporting massive offensive power for such a bulky mon and not losing too much momentum
for a lot of the sets it can also afford to run pretty much any coverage to help support the team
poison jab if ur team gets wrecked by primarina, ice punch for gliscor, idk what else really, i guess EQ for chandelier. lunge is also kinda under appreciated i guess? preventing physical setup is pretty damn good

like buzzwole in itself may not be broken, but the roles it can offer a team are just so many that theres hardly a reason to not run it i feel. don't know if thats like a good or bad thing for the tier but just thoughts?
 
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"It's one of the Pokemon I tested to deal with Xurkitree / Raikou and tbh is meh but fun to use. If it come on Electric attack (and Xurkitree / Raikou aren't set-up) Trapinch win it's one vs one."

I love when people don't read me ;_;

You said that Buzzwole can be good in every playstyle but that was clearly the case of Clefable. Stall, Balanced or even Offense (CM LO for exemple or 3 atk + softboiled were a thing). So imo Buzzwole is clearly like Clefable. A gr8 versatile Pokemon.
For Xurkitree, I don't think I'm a dumb player and we're not stupid when we play Stall but Xurkitree + Pursuit is a real pain because if you let Xurkitree set-up it's most of the time the end since 0 Pokemon in Stall team can handle this thing when it's set-up. It force so much 50/50 and stall don't like 50/50..

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Latias: 350-412 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 679-801 (95 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 444-522 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(the other Pokemon get absolutely rekt by the coverage Grass Knot + HP Ice or regular T-Bolt even if Xurkitree isn't set-up..).

PS : Sure Trapinch is a bad mon I just said it was kinda fun to use.
I did mention specs Xurk, but I want to focus on why I think the Clefable comparison falls short as I pretty clearly mentioned how Buzzwole picks its counters, whereas sure Clefable CAN run 3 attacks + LO, but lets be honest here, 99% percent of Clef usage boiled down to rocks/cm/unaware wall depending on team comp. Buzzwole has CB, Physdef with toxic, Bulk Up, subpunch, and various AoA z move sets, and all of them with the exception of Physdef pack more punch than Clefable ever could, not to mention it also has decent enough speed and the unpredictability factor. I mean it's Spdef is bad, but I never felt Clef was bulky enough and could be worn down by powerful wallbreakers. That's why I feel the comparison falls short, as how they're used and their levels of versatility are completely different. Don't get me wrong though, Clefable was a top tier S rank mon but Buzzwole blanket checks nearly every physical attacker while STILL packing a ridiculous punch and I think that negatively affects the meta.

And on Xurkitree, all I said was that it wasn't IMPOSSIBLE to beat with stall, it's difficult sure but if mons were banned based off being "difficult" for a playstyle, Prima, Togekiss and Nidoking would be banned for being pretty hard to beat for Offense, Stall and Balance respectively. I don't think being amazing against stall but a dead weight against decent chunk of the meta really classifies it as a bigger problem than the buzz.

PS: Xurk's only good sets are Specs and Tail glow plus random Z, and 90% of Raikous are CM Z move
 
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This may not be the most appropriate timing with the current Weavile suspect and the recent voting on Buzzwole, but I really think this needs to be said. Buzzwole is, in my opinion, very unhealthy for UU and needs to go. On a side note, I've found Xurk to be a lot less powerful than I previously thought. I believe the council made the right choice in keeping it, but Buzzwole requires further action. Here is my reasoning, and I want to emphasize that each individual point is not what makes Buzzwole broken but all of them combined:

1. Buzzwole's versatility. The good sets carry either Substitute, Bulk Up, or both in conjunction with Fighting STAB. This leaves Buzzwole with one or two free moveslots to literally pick what checks it. The only reliable counters I can think of are bulky Ghosts like Cofagrigus, Jellicent, and Doublade, but Ghost-types are pretty bad right now and Buzzwole still finds ways to muscle past them. Cofagrigus is really bad, especially defensive sets, Jellicent takes half from Thunder Punch, and Doublade needs a turn to Swords Dance to do anything back. Fairies might seem like a good counter until it 2HKOs your Sylveon/Florges/Togekiss with Poison Jab, and it doesn't even need to predict switch for Florges and Togekiss if it has Substitute as well. Crobat is dropped by Ice Punch, Stone Edge, or Thunder Punch. Mantine the same minus Ice Punch. Chandelure to Stone Edge etc. Of course, Buzzwole is absolutely not unique in this regard. We already have plenty of versatile offensive threats in Infernape, Latias, Nidos, Hydreigon and more, but what Buzzwole has that they don't is:

2. Buzzwole's phenomenal bulk. 107/139/53 defenses are ridiculous for something that is so difficult to switch into. Latias and Hydreigon are bulky but comparing their defenses look like Mienshao's in comparison to Buzzwole. Its amazing bulk and decent typing invalidates the vast majority of the tier's physical attackers and gives it far too many opportunities to get a free Substitute or Bulk Up. Tier staples like Cobalion and Krookodile have to avoid clicking any move in fear of Buzzwole switching in and praying it doesn't have the coverage move to break your team. Terrifying wallbreakers like Flame Orb Conkeldurr, Mamoswine, non-Acrobatics Gliscor are turned to liabilities the second Buzzwole appears on team preview. I've heard some people say Blissey does the same thing to most special attackers, but such a comparison is flawed due to the obvious offensive differences. Buzzwole does not even need Attack investment to hit hard and dissuade offensive checks from switching in. Here's a good replay demonstrating how much of a force Buzzwole has in a match:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-595616320

This is a battle between me and Sacri (which Sacri proceeded to save and share on discord to show off how he completely outplayed this ladder scrub :,[ ). I did get vastly outplayed, though, as Sacri ended up winning. But look at the lengths at which he had to play at to kill Buzzwole. It came in throughout the game to hard wall Weavile, Mega Swampert, and Conkeldurr, which sounds insane just typing this out, and it even forced out SD Scizor when I revealed I was defensive Bulk Up (really good set IMO). Multiple times Sacri was forced to U-Turn or make a double switch with these Pokemon, because he knew giving Buzzwole a free Roost would cost him the game. The kicker is, despite his amazing plays, it still came down to a Waterfall flinch and a 50/50 at the end to break my Buzzwole.

Ironically this team loses to Sub + Bulk Up Buzzwole, but that's besides the point.

3. Buzzwole's offensive presence is unmatched for a Pokemon with such defensive utility. When people say it invalidates 90% the tier's physical attackers, they are not exaggerating. Just one Pokemon gives a reliable check to Cobalion, Conkeldurr, Mega Swampert, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Beedrill, Krookodile, Terrakion, Gliscor, Lucario, and many others. However, it has the ability to deal significant damage without any offensive investments.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594736151

Turn 2 I OHKO an incoming Latias with Lunge predicting the Hammer Arm. While the crit did matter, Latias was going to be severely crippled for the game either way. You can argue whether or not this was the ideal play (as he had Primarina), but what other defensive Pokemon can do this? If I try and make a double switch on an Alomomola, but it Scalds the switch in for super effective damage, I'm not losing 80%+ of my health. Blissey's Seismic Toss is never going to OHKO an incoming Fighting-type. Buzzwole, however, can, and even if my set was walled by Primarina in this game, my opponent had no way of knowing. For all he knows, I could be creeping Timid Primarina with Poison Jab. In the end, my opponent won via timer, as I was playing this at work and could not finish :/.

Sacking to bring in something like CB Ape or Mega Aerodactyl safely is not even the best play at times. If Buzzwole gets a boost in Defense from its ability, things get real stupid.

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 192-228 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You literally wall CB Ape at +1 as it dies to recoil. This happened to me in a game, but I unfortunately do not have the replay.

252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aerial Ace vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 204-240 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 232-280 (55.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 188-224 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You better carry a strong special attacker to revenge Buzzwole, but when you realize BlissWole is arguably the most powerful defensive core right now, you better hope they misplay.


I concede that Buzzwole has flaws, the most notable one being mediocre STAB combo always leaves it walled by something, and bad speed + Spdef means revenging it is not totally unmanageable. Regardless, I believe Buzzwole is currently the most "centralizing" presence in UU right now and deserves to be looked at or talked about more. To be clear, I am in no way criticizing the council's decision to keep it UU (it would have been naive to ban it right away without first seeing its effects), but as of now I think it's clear it is too unhealthy for UU. I welcome others to discuss and chip in on whether they agree or disagree.
 
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Hogg

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Didn't really get to post last week as I was out of town with limited computer access, but regarding the Weavile suspect, I have yet to see anything that indicates Weavile is unhealthy in the current meta. Even outside of Buzzwole, Weavile has been good but not overwhelming, as despite its excellent Speed, most teams carry reasonable defensive checks and rocks weak + potential LO recoil severely limits the number of times it can come in to do its thing. Ama, Dext and Hikari summed up my thoughts on Weavile's place in the current metagame fairly well, so I'm not going to waste a bunch of words saying what they've already said, but unless something changes drastically in the next couple of days I'm planning to vote unban on Weavile.

Speaking of which, voting should be up shortly. If you've got some opinions on Weavile that you think the council should see before they vote, now's a good time to post!
 
Hey there, it's been a little while since I have given my thoughts on the meta, but as I am apart of the rotating council I feel like it's important that I give my 2 cents. For now, I am only going to discuss Weavile.

Since Weavile has revisited the tier I have used it a good amount. Specifically, I have used SD + Icium Z and Life Orb Pursuit. Before I discuss my opinion on Weavile as a whole, I want to touch up upon the SD + Icium set because I noticed a lot of people shitting on it in this thread. The SD set is not bad at all. Throughout my many ladder games, SD weavile has proven to be an effective win condition. Although Weavile has a poor defensive typing along with less than desirable bulk for a set up Pokémon, it naturally forces a TON of switches which give it the opportunity to set up. LO or CB are going to be the expected sets so the surprise factor is great.
Now as for Weavile as a whole, I find it to be a very effective and threatening offensive presence, although I do not find it overwhelming. There are several revenge killers that either naturally resist Weavile's STABs or have SE stabs such as Mach punch or Bullet Punch to revenge kill . In my opinion Weavile could fit finely in the tier as an above average offensive attacker used as a Pursuit trapper and revenge killer.
 
With voting going up im gonna post my thoughts. Everything that has been said about weavile's frailty, terrible defensive typing, sr weakness, and the large presence of buzzwole is true. Weavile is simply not something you can just slap on a team and expect to do work due to its massive amount of flaws that will require significant support to make up for and even then, the fact that it offers no defensive utility is really hard to deal with since offensive teams absolutely need some sort of soft switch ins to shit like aero, scarf hydra and scarf shao, while the best weavile can do is try to predict latias clicking psychic.

However i find that ice/dark stab is absurdly hard to deal with without going out of your way to cover it, this is specially true when the dark attack permanently cripples stuff you would want to consistently switch in like klefki, bulky scizor, forry etc.

Ice shard is cherry on the cake with 125 speed, making the few potential revenge killers like aero, crobat and bee just fall apart after prior damage which can easily be accomplished late game, and that is where weavile truly shines as it can clean teams with a simple life orb crash knock shard low kick set.

People keep bringing up that even with few hard counters it has a lot of soft checks, but thats simply not true. Infernape is outright 2hkoed by low kick and knock+low kick will ko scarf on the switch in after rocks, primarina is 2hkoed by knock+crash after rocks, cobalion takes 80% min from low kick, mega blastoise can only come in once assuming its very healthy which is unlikely outside early game for a slow spinner with no recovery, mega lix is 2hkoed by low kick after minimal prior damage, conk cant switch on knock prior to orb activating or it becomes useless and it needs to be in absolutely perfect condition in order to tank crash+orb dmg+shard, phys def pert cant come in directly or it will lose 1vs1 (though it will take 60% off weavile's health, but its not like you cant just knock it off then switch out anyway).

Yes weavile is far from unmanageable and requires quite a bit of team support, but the amount of constraint it puts on teambuilding due to being able to force out such a large chunk of the tier and how hard it is to stop it from cleaning up leans me towards Ban.
 
The vote is now done and this time it was extremely one sided.



Weebile is now unbanned from the UU tier and will be allowed in the upcoming UU Open VI. In preparations for that massive UU tournament, we will be doing another council vote in the next few days to address any major threat that we might have overlooked in the previous one.
 
The vote is not done and this time it was extremely one sided.



Weebile is now unbanned from the UU tier and will be allowed in the upcoming UU Open VI. In preparations for that massive UU tournament, we will be doing another council vote in the next few days to address any major threat that we might have overlooked in the previous one.
Council vote? Like the ones that sent things like Weavile and such to BL?
 
So this vote handles the OU drops and such?
Not exactly: if something drops from OU, it automatically enters in UU. But if it prove to be too much difficult to handle, the council can decide to suspect/quickban it.
There may be a case of a drop of something that was previously banned (for example Kyurem-Black), in that case is goes directly in BL, unless the council decide that the metagame is changed enough to handle it
 
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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
With Smogon's largest UU tour just around the corner, we have decided to hold a special council vote to address any major threats that may have previously been overlooked.

After reviewing posts on this thread and discussing the current state of the metagame with the council, we have decided to suspect the following Pokemon:

Buzzwole
While Buzzwole was voted to remain UU by a healthy 9-3 margin in the last council vote, several people have expressed concern that the vote was a bit premature. New sets such as specially defensive Bulk Up and Rockium-Z have demonstrated Buzzwole's versatility and ability to power through typical answers. In addition, several posters have expressed concern that Buzzwole's combination of incredible defensive utility and wallbreaking power make it an unhealthy presence in the tier. However, flaws do exist: poor Special Defense, a mediocre Speed and lack of a reliable Fighting-type STAB all serve as potential roadblocks to Buzzwole.

Latias
Prior to the last tier shift, there was a lot of discussion on whether Latias had an unhealthy presence on the metagame. Incredible offensive flexibility, an excellent defensive typing/ability, reliable set-up moves—Latias had it all. In particular, Calm Mind sets with a Z crystal proved particularly difficult to counter during UUPL. However, the last tier shift was incredibly unkind to Latias. The departure of offensive threats such as Keldeo meant that Latias no longer held quite as vital a defensive niche, while new additions to the tier such as Alolan Muk, Steelix-Mega and Beedrill-Mega helped to keep its most dangerous sets in check. That being said, even following the tier shift and the unbanning of Weavile, Latias remains one of the top 'mons in UU, and the council has decided to review whether or not it can truly be considered balanced in this new metagame.

Xurkitree
With a 6-6 vote, the council appeared divided regarding whether or not Xurkitree was a healthy presence in the UU metagame in its last vote. With the highest Special Attack in the tier and access to the powerful boosting move Tail Glow, it is safe to say that UU has never seen a wallbreaker as powerful as Xurkitree. With the raw power to break through dedicated electric counters such as Blissey, Amoonguss and Steelix-Mega, many have worried that the pressure Xurkitree places on defensive teams is simply too much to bear. On the other hand, Xurkitree struggles with a difficult combination of poor defenses and a mediocre Speed, which limits its setup opportunities, makes it difficult to switch in safely, and leaves it easily revenge killed. Still, Xurkitree's healthiness in the tier remains a matter of hot debate both in and out of the council, and we have decided to vote on it once more before UU Open.

As with the previous votes, this will be a council suspect. Both council members and non-council members are encouraged to discuss these threats in this thread, so that the council can make an informed decision. Voting will remain open through Sunday.
 
Let's get right into this.
Buzzwole:


My personal belief is Buzzwole is unhealthy for the tier and should be banned. As Adaam wonderfully put it, Buzzwole's combination of versatility, bulk, and incredible offensive presence while still having solid defensive backbone is what makes Buzzwole banworthy. It can be tailor-made to beat its checks very easily (Gliscor? Ice Punch. Togekiss? Poison Jab) with enough chip. Buzzwole can easily nullify many team's physical sweepers such as Scizor due to its phenomonal bulk and easily OHKO/2HKO back depending on its set. Its even able to boost its gargantuan Attack and Defense to frightening levels, forcing out prominent physical attackers such as Weavile and Krookodile easily so it can do so for free. Beast Boost only adds to its presence on the field, letting it steamroll even without being a BU set or any boosting set of the sort. Plsban.

Xurkitree:


Xurkitree is undoubtedly a huge threat in the tier, steamrolling offense as it pleases after a boost of any kind. However, I don't find it to be broken, or seriously unhealthy. A lot of dominant threats in the metagame can easily check Xurkitree one way or another, such as Mega Pert in rain, Scarf Krookodile and Hydreigon, Gliscor being immune to Z-Hypnosis, and Mega Shark being able to outspeed even +1 Xurkitree with a boost of its own. Unlike Buzzwole, Xurkitree is not fairly versatile in terms of sets and is rather predictable when it comes on the field (Tail Glow/ Electric STAB/ Speed boosting move/ coverage). Xurkitree's speed is also bad by UU standards before a boost, and even after its still outsped by a very common and dominant mon in the meta, Mega Aero. Also, Xurkitree cannot just sweep: it is incredibly frail, and pretty much all possible offensive checks have to be removed before it can sweep/attempt to sweep. And if we're talking the Z-Hypnosis set to even get a speed boost, relying on a 60% move just to even have a chance of cleaning is not ideal and put Xurk's chances of even having a chance to sweep in jeopardy. For now I'd say Xurk isn't bannable.

EDIT: Ye, Lati isn't broken lol. Meta's adapted to it with things like Scarf Krook running around and Weavile being reintroduced and almost every playstyle has something for it (Just to give some examples: HO has Weavile, BO has things like Prima and stall has things like Kiss and things that can generally that can take a hit from lati.) Don't ban pls
 
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Buzzwole + Xurkitree > I've already give my opinions about this two. While Buzzwole can be more controvertial, I trully think Xurkitree deserve to be ban just cuz it obliterate on his own a whole archetype (and that sucks a lot). TG + Z-Thunderbolt + HP Ice & Grass Knot or TG + Z-Hypnosis + T-Bolt & Grass Knot can both 6-0 Stall. I've played a lot of game with different stall team (with Weavile Band, Krook Scarf or even Sub Roost Kyurem) and Xurkitree was allways a huge and annonying threat. Even if Xurkitree isn't the most versatile Pokemon in the tier for sure, tbh It's an unhealthy one..

Latias > Since the tier shift, Latias isn't as dangereous as it was before. Just let it free.
 
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I figured I would put my 651.25 Iranian Rials in so I'm not late to the party. (s/o to anyone who deciphers that joke.)

I do believe Buzzwole is the biggest problem with UU, it's sheer ability to muscle past every unboosted physical attacker is simply ridiculous, as if it's max HP, and gets a bulk up off it avoids the 2HKO from Scarf Infernape, a super effective 360 after STAB and S/E Boosts coming off a respectable 104 attack. That and in combination with such an obscene attack stat, decent speed relative to the bulk and power it has, and all the coverage it could dream of in the form of Stone Edge, PJab, EQ and the elemental punches to hit whatever its stabs don't and reliable recovery in Roost to top it all off. Oh, and did I mention the absurd BEASHT BOOST? The ability to boost any stat it wants to depending on the spread really helps it snowball momentum or bust holes for teammates to exploit. Let me get this clear, Buzzwole does have counters. Everything does. But the amount of strain you have to go through to check it and only that due to its movepool, plus the sheer disadvantage you are at by not using one of SubPunch, SpDef BU, AoA Z move lure sets, Choice Band, and full Physdef is simply too large to not to be called centralizing. ban it, ban it yesterday.

Xurkitree is a hotly debated topic, and rightfully so, it can steamroll stall if played right after Tail Glow, but it loses to every other play style. It has 173 SpA, you say. It also has mediocre base 83 speed and average at best defensive stats. I am going to make a bold statement. Stall isn't dead. True Stall is. The days of Blissey/Alo/Quag/Mandibuzz teams are gone. But I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Stall as I'm seeing it is moving more toward Semistall by running more offensive stuff like Latias and SubRoost Kyurem. I think Xurkitree is ultimately healthy as it's spurring the development of Stall. And these new developments such as running SubRoost Kyurem allow proficient stall players such as pokeisfun to actively play around Xurk. Another reason I want Xurk to stay around is one that I've mentioned before. It raises the skill barrier for Stall. I won't go into it again so read the post where I talk about this earlier on this page, but tl;dr raising skill barrier for Stall will most likely increase ladder diversity and get more people interested in offense, which should make the game more fun in my opinion. All in All, it's borderline, it's very borderline but I hope the council votes Stay once more.

Lastly, Latias. Now, making a decision on this one is tough, as new drops like Mega Steelix, Weavile, and AloMuk serve to pressure it via sheer bulk or Pursuit. However my main issue with these trappers is that in the case of Weavile, it's super frail, and in the case of Steelix and AloMuk, they lack recovery, and CM Dragonium Z sets decimate these after the appropriate prior has been taken. Mega Sceptile is pretty much irrelevant, and Clefable left with the last shift. Scizor, and Empoleon must watch out for HP Fire, and Z Thunder respectively. I don't believe Latias is healthy because I dislike the concept of how it can circumvent normally hard checks like Krook and Empoleon via Z-Move IN ADDITION to an amazing base 110 speed, and phenomenal 80/90/130 bulk, and decent support movepool of stuff like Healing Wish,Defog, and Trick if you're a choice set as well as good coverage of Tbolt, Ice Beam, it's STABs, and HP Fire. For all of these reasons, I am hoping the council leans toward ban.

s/o LeoLancaster for the help and being a cool dude.
 
Yay, more stuff that could get banned.

Screw everything about everything. Buzz is too strong in every sense of the word. Defensively makes having Krook and almost every physical attacker a liability, offensively is impossible to really not lose something to if it gets a sub up. It's too strong, too bulky, and too fast to really let it stay in any healthy sense.

Tree is a different case. Screw the above about raising the skill gate, with a little support it still rips through stall. We should be leaning towards a healthy meta, not forcing stall to run offensive pokemon to try and check a single thing. Ban this thing too, and sharpish.

Latias just isn't unhealthy lol. Like, seriously, maybe before when nothing could stop it bar Clef. Now we have bulkier things around and the meta has adapted around stopping this thing. The new mega drops check this immediately, if not hard wall in the case of steelix unless it starts running surf. Can't call something unhealthy if it isn't, even if it was before.

Tl;dr: ban the ubs, keep lati.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
I haven't posted here in a while, but I personally think Buzzwole is really a bit much at the moment.

The set that I predominantly use is the Sub + FP set, which is by far the best set to abuse Buzzwole's incredible power. Buzz's ability to both switch in on a lot of offensive physical threats easily and force switches on defensive ones gives it unmatched set-up opportunities to get behind a sub and fire off Focus Punches easily. This aforementioned quality gives it very little counterplay in the current metagame mostly because Substitute allows it to bypass incoming damage to trade unevenly.
 

TSR

dead blue
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey there, I'm gonna drop my thoughts on something that'e been bothering me with the discussion thus far.

This seems to be an unpopular opinion for some reason, but I believe Xurkitree is easily the most problematic of the three. While it does have quite poor defensive capability compared to a lot of other prominent threats, in addition to seemingly viable counterplay on paper, I've found it quite hard to put into practice. The problem it causes not only lies in the heavy constraint is places on teambuilding, but also how these constraints transfer into actual play, thus making many situations that are extremely low risk for the Xurkitree user.
The main problem that Xurkitree imposes in the teambuilding phase.Before its addition to the tier, there were an abundance of decent or better electric checks, that mostly focused on checking Raikou. Nowadays, its presence mandates that you pack a few solid offensive checks able to revenge kill it, as its Tail Glow set has the power to invalidate a large portion of viable defensive counterplay to it. Ways of dealing with Tail Glow Xurkitree are typically reduced to offensive pressure and revenge killing with either:
a) faster Pokemon with strong Ground-type coverage like Aerodactyl, Krookodile, and Nidoking. Xurkitree's defensive capability might suck but its rarely put out of commission by a single unboosted neutral attack.Most if not all of its offensive checks are poor switch ins to Xurkitree, meaning its always a couple good plays away from shattering a team's defensive backbone.
b) Faster dragons that can switch into Xurkitree's coverage at least once and can apply offensive pressure. This basically means Latias, Kyurem, and Hydreigon; Pokemon that can resist Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, and not fall right over to HP Ice. These switch ins are all flawed for one reason or another. Latias is prone to being trapped via Pursuit, Kyurem has a weakness to Stealth Rock, common priority like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, as well as an overall poor defensive typing. Hydreigon often doesn't include Roost in its movesets due to the majority of them packing Choice Scarf or Specs. Dazzling Gleam is also a strong option for Xurk to use, which smack Dragon-types a fair bit harder (especially Hydreigon) while also not hurting its overall impact in most games.
Conventional defensive answers to Electric-types that were highly successful in the past such as Amoonguss, Mega Steelix, Swampert, and Blissey are simply no longer as effective as they used to be. Xurkitree's overwhelmingly high Special Attack in conjunction with Gigavolt Havoc lets it plow through tradtionally good special walls, and its coverage options are just right to let it threaten anything that could otherwise to attempt to check it through unique typing or abilities.
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 444-522 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 301-355 (85 - 100.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 679-801 (95 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


As most of us reading are well aware, Tail Glow isn't the only thing that sets Xurkitree apart as a dangerous wallbreaker. Choice Specs and Zap Plate sets have been popping up that have proven effective as well. I've mentioned previously that most, if not all, of the Ground-types that inhabit UU are not even close to true counters to Xurkitree, and only faster ones such as Krookodile and Nidoking actually tend to pose a threat to it. Offensive Nidoqueen sets as well as Mega Swampert and Mamoswine take a hit in their abilty to reliably check Electric-types, as anything slower than Xurkitree run the risk of being crushed by its insanely high-powered coverage options. As such, I have had battles where slamming Specs- or Zap Plate-boosted Volt Switches into my opponent's team was extremely low risk for me while my opponents played from behind, trying to check powerful wallbreakers, or getting stuck in dangerous VoltTurn cycles.The mere idea of Volt Switch going rampant after a Ground-type dies is often more than enough to keep said Ground-type from switching into Xurkitree. It can become a massive strain on any team, as the risk of losing their only stop to Xurkitree's Electric moves is often coersive enough to make your opponent play conservatively with it. This once again displays the extremely low risk that Xurkitree takes to use, and in conjunction, the high reward that often comes with it. In addition, while Xurkitree sports relatively poor defensive stats and capabilities, many Pokemon still struggle to outright KO it with unboosted neutral hits. In many games, Xurkitree usually trades with a target that isn't a healthy Krookodile, Nidoking, Latias, or Aerodactyl. A bit of theorymonning on my part (mostly courtesy of Cynde), but even Shuca Berry sounds like a viable option, allowing Xurk to tank Earthquake from Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl, and even Earth Power from Nidoking (guaranteed without Stealth Rock). Xurkitree doesn't exactly need Gigavolt Havoc to break through teams that lack Blissey (most), and Shuca Berry would seem like its most viable option to neuter a group of its potential checks.
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shuca Berry Xurkitree: 201-237 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shuca Berry Xurkitree: 148-175 (48.2 - 57%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shuca Berry Xurkitree: 247-292 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


To wrap this post up, I'd like to talk about Xurkitree's matchup against various playstyles in the current metagame, and explain why none of them are particualrly bad for Xurkitree.

* Offense, most commonly seen in UU with a decent defensive backbone to cover a couple key threats with most of the team relegated to applying offensive pressure. Xurkitree's "bad" matchup vs offense is often grossly overinflated. Straight Hyper Offense that has the capability to quickly overwhelm Xurkitree is few and far between, the reasoning boiling down to the effect that losing a defensive backbone can have on the consistency of a team (tldr HO is somewhat unreliable in the current state of UU). Common defensive staples on Bulky Offense such as Togekiss and Empoleon can end up giving Xurkitree a dangerous amount of breathing room. In addition, the option of Volt Switch makes Xurkitree a potent momentum grabber, which can put offensive teams on the back foot. As I've elaborated beforehand, it's extremely high-risk to send your Ground-type into Xurkitree, which makes it much more favorable for the Xurkitree user to grab free momentum via Volt Switch. When people say that Xurkitree tends to have a poor offense matchup, I feel that many are saying this without the right idea of what exactly the word "offense" implies in UU. Xurkitree's matchup vs a majority of the offense in UU tends to be slightly tougher, but quite far off from being truly poor.

* Balance; bascially nonexistent in the current metagame thanks to the large number of threats that it has to attempt to handle defensively. As a more defesively inclined team style, the number of Pokemon Xurkitree takes advantage of is bound to increase in this scenario. Balance has an even harder time stopping Tail Glow because of this. It's also harder to stop Volt Switch since one wrong play can end up with a dead Ground-type, which is more than likely a key member of the teams defensive core. If played halfway decently, Xurkitree can find itself in a lot of low risk situations where it can deal significant damage.

* Stall, I believe, actually has a slightly better matchup against Xurk than that of balance teams. While Xurkitree's Tail Glow can allow it to crush most defensive answers with relative ease, stall teams have somewhat adapted and thus caused an influx of Kyurem, Latias, Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl, and now Weavile, that attempt to check Xurkitree offensively and/or cripple it for the remainder of a match. Stall has commonly employed tactics like these throughout the various generations, and this trend is no different. However, for reasons I've stated previously, none of these options are exactly safe options against it, and Xurkitree can often end up forcing a huge amount of damage onto a key member of a defensive team before it can be safely revenge killed.

With that, all of my thoughts have been laid out fairly well. I ultimately don't have any say in how the vote will actually go, but I'd gladly urge anyone to support this thing leaving UU before open starts.

---------
As a final final note, I'd like to refute anything I said that might have shown Arcanine in anything resembling a positive light in my last post in this thread. I deeply regret anything that I said that might keep it out of D rank for a few more days, apologies.
 
I'd like to chime in on this. I'll start with Xurk. Most people have bought up the points I was thinking about with xurk. Yes it has subpar bulk, but it's speed isn't exactly horrible. 83 base speed is still quite good for a wallbreaker. Specs+pursuit is absolutely deadly to most offensive teams as their way of answering xurk is latias or celebi. Pursuit weavile handles many of the other xurk checks(amoon nido). The TG Z-tbolt set absolutely decimates stall/fat teams. And it finds many opportunities to set up. You need to have multiple checks for it for offensive teams and for fat teams you just better pray you guess right or you're toast. BAN

On to latias. Honestly Latias has quickly become the Lando-T of UU. Easily splashable on most teams, great coverage options(tbolt, surf), multiple sets(scarf,Z-tbolt or draco,LO), and great utility moves in defog, healing wish, recover(go away roost) and trick. Even with all this, many of the recent drops have not been kind to latias(weavile alomuk megalix) and the fact that it's extremely pursuit weak. I feel as if latias still needs further testing before a decision can be made on it.

Finally Buzzwole. With its incredible physical attack and defense, a movepool thats almost hydreigon-esque, great utility with sub roost bulk up, Buzzwole is a force to be reckoned with. One needs to scout what set Buzzwole is running, and if they guess wrong they just put themselves behind 8 ball. It gets ridiculous coverage and easy setup opportunities on many physical attackers. Yes it has a very subpar Special Attack, but with enough investment it can easily setups substitute on many of the weaker Special Attackers and proceed to boost with Bulk Up. BAN
 
I've already voiced my opinion on buzzwole's need to go, but i also wanna try and refute any possible counter arguments
-oh its spdef is bad
i mean like sure its not great but with base 100 hp and little defensive investment it can eat hits
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 152 HP / 52 SpD Buzzwole: 229-271 (58.2 - 68.9%)
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 152 HP / 52 SpD Buzzwole: 288-339 (73.2 - 86.2%)
252 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 176-210 (44.7 - 53.4%)
252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 152 HP / 52 SpD Buzzwole: 279-328 (70.9 - 83.4%)
like its not bad enough to be OHKOed by anything really (non specs attacks) so its not like frail as shit on the spdef side.

-its slow
like ok but its fast enough to outspeed what it needs to with base 79, and what it cant outspeed it has teammates for. also its bulk more than makes up for the speed imo so.

as of fighting STAB, choiced sets can use hammer arm or superpower, as with a band it still hits hard af after a drop. I also feel like those are actually pretty good fighting stab like one lowers speed which as a semi slow mon u don't really care about, and the other lowers attack and def which is bad ya but you'd just use those on a choice set and would probs switch out anyways since theres so many fighting resists in the tier

idk i got distracted but gonna post this anyways

xurk is strong af and Z-terrain is a pretty good countermeasure to offense bc u get a electric stab boost and a speed boost so its like 2 in 1.

latias is almost like an ORAS hydreigon in a sense, bc its strong af, but also can soft/check a ton of threats so its like almost necessary? unsure but i would probs lean towards no ban. also ya new megas pretty much all can threaten it so its def not as centralized as like beta or whatever stage
 

Sam

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so I've picked up UU again recently to prep for slam, I tend to agree w/ people on buzzwole but I got to say:

I think xurkitree isn't even that good, much less a bannable mon. It's matchup vs offense is not exaggerated: it is terrible. z terrain sets will have to take a hit to set up and then fold easily to priority or any mon that can eat a hit, of which there are surprisingly many even on an offensive team. Yes a togekiss or an empoleon can give can give xurkitree set up chances but if your team consists of one of those mons and 4-5 mons that just fold to xurkitree then that is the team's fault, not xurkitree's. Volt Switch is threatening but this isn't anything new and isn't something exclusive to xurkitree. It's not any more threatening than any other electric type with volt switch despite it's increased offenses. Honestly I've been running an offensive team with a spdef empoleon, and scarf hydrei and LO mamo are plenty to never really be too threatened by xurk.

Yes some full stall builds can be threatened by something like sub tail glow, but there are mons on stall that can threaten xurk (mega lix is a big one), and even then I don't think stall having to run one mon that can outspeed xurkitree is really too restricting considering base 83 leaves you with a lot of options.

Even with the good stall matchup, bringing xurk is such a liability against faster teams I honestly don't find it worth using. There are other things that can fill that role while not folding to an offensive team at preview.

xurkitree for B
 
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