np: SUMO UU Stage 2 - Countdown

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Well it begins to touch on the logic behind the ban a bit. Basically pointing out that they play upon each other and as such you have to take out one element to balance the other. If x makes y broken, y makes x broken, and neither are boken without the other then how should you approach banning? In this case, seniority seems to have been the deciding factor, but it's perfectly reasonable to argue that consistency in limiting weather abilities fits smogon's past policy. Although I will say he was likely underselling houndoom's strengths outside of sun. Great speed tier, boosting, options for priority, etc.
 
Well it begins to touch on the logic behind the ban a bit. Basically pointing out that they play upon each other and as such you have to take out one element to balance the other. If x makes y broken, y makes x broken, and neither are boken without the other then how should you approach banning? In this case, seniority seems to have been the deciding factor, but it's perfectly reasonable to argue that consistency in limiting weather abilities fits smogon's past policy. Although I will say he was likely underselling houndoom's strengths outside of sun. Great speed tier, boosting, options for priority, etc.
It would have problems breaking past stall teams. Quite a few would use Blissey and the only way to break past is +2 in sun from something with Heat Rock Sunny Day (50% chance to OHKO, with rocks becomes guaranteed 100% chance to OHKO)
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
Nasty Plot+Taunt can break through Blissey, just with a little more work and care than a set boosted by sun because it either can fire off attacks vs Pokémon not named Blissey and expect to 2HKO, or find an opportunity to boost and OHKO. In general on Houndoom, I think the points Adam brought up had a lot of validity despite me thinking Houndoom was the correct ban of choice initially, but I don't see the point in pressing the issue at this point. I feel like almost all discussion from this point forwards is just going to be rehashing old thoughts.
 

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit / Low Kick

So over the last couple days I've come to the conclusion that this is the best Weavile set. I've seen a ton of different options thrown around which is only natural with Weavile's versatility on paper, but I believe this capitalizes on its positive attributes the best. The main set I really want to focus on and don't understand the merit of is the popularity of Choice Band. While the extra damage output and lack of recoil from Life Orb may initallt come off as more appealing, I can't ignore the huge losses of momentum that are caused by locking into one more or another. For example, you're forced into locking into Ice Shard or Pursuit if you want to successfully revenge kill faster Pokemon like a weakened Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Sceptile. This opens up ridiculously free opportunities for wallbreakers and setup sweepers in the back to come in and take advantage of a Pokemon forced into a 40 BP move. To add to this, your opponent can even play aggressively around the Ice Shard/Pursuit 5050 knowing they have those huge threats in the back to take advantage of your Weavile. And, on the other hand, if you lock into Knock Off or Icicle Crash on a slower Pokemon, you open up the door for the aforementioned weakened Aero or Scep to come in and throw out a free hit or double out on a telegraphed switch. Life Orb eases prediction and doesn't suffer from the same losses of momentum, which is especially useful given that Weavile fits best on offensive teams that are generally not suited to take on full health set up sweepers or powerful wallbreakers with free turns.


Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

This thing is so underrated and coincidentally a fantastic partner for Weavile, beating many of its checks and counters due its amazing typing and natural bulk. Doublade matches up ridiculously well against many of the top Pokemon in the current metagame, beating Mega Aerodactyl, most Latias, Scizor, Cobalion, Buzzwole, Mega Beedrill, and Terrakion all one-on-one. It's against offensive teams that Doublade really shines, as it hard counters many of the threats listed above and can serve as a strong win condition given its large amount of setup opportunities. Even then, it's offensive checks are forced in right away since Swords Dance is so free and are forced to eat a fairly powerful unboosted Iron Head or Shadow Claw, weakening them for a potential late game sweep. While it is weak to Pursuit, it has appreciated a slight decline in Krookodile's viability given the increased usage of Buzzwole and Mega Swampert, and is also capable of threatening the OHKO on Weavile which forces a 5050 situation at least. Another negative is that's using Doublade forces the user to pack a strong check to Mega Pidgeot, an annoyingly effective revenge killer of this set that can still threaten it despite its resistance to Flying. All in all though I'd say it's great amount positive attributes outweigh its negatives and make it a great pick for balance and bulky offense teams in the current meta.
 
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Anyone else think buzzwole is dumb? It counters all physical attackers in the tier except fire and flying types (of which there are few). And at the same time its really powerful and has limited counterplay. Imo it restricts teambuilding and is unhealthy for the meta.
 
I know this is kinda off-topic, but I want to give you my thoughts on Chandelure.

I've been using Chandelure since I first started playing UU and it has been a staple in most of my teams. It has a lot going for it:
  • High special attack
  • Nice STAB moves (Fire is nice and ghost has few real resistances)
  • Its typing allows it to hard counter a lot of mons and setup/fire off strong attacks, as I will cover later
  • It's a nice rapid spin blocker (at least against Forretress and Tsareena)
  • Flash fire gives makes it counter more mons, possibly being a win condition against a choice locked Infernape or Entei
Chandelure can have main three roles: A wallbreaker (sub cm), a hard hitter(specs) and a revenge killer(scarf). I think the latter one is no really the best right now. It's not really fast and it would be slower than a Xurkitree with +1 speed, which is the main reason almost all teams have a scarfer.

The first one can start setting up in a lot of mons -Cobalion, Buzzwole, Blissey, Tsareena, bulky Scizor,Forretress- making it, with Buzzwole and Crawdaunt, the best way to counter stall. If played well, it just wins against it. Blissey (the main answer to any special attacker) won't be able to touch you unless it's running shadow ball, but most stall players don't like the idea of giving up on a move slot for that. Haze Tentacruel can be a problem, but most stall teams run it with mixed defenses and somewhat speed, and having no reliable recovery makes it not really a counter. Against other playstyles, even if there's no chance to set up, it is still a mon with 427 spA (modest nature). This is my set for this:
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball

The specs set is kinda overlooked, but it is really nice. It gets a powerful attack almost everytime one of the mons listed above come in. It is also a nice Hydreigon bait (!), doing 63.3 to 74.7% with overheat. Running trick also helps against walls, although not being as effective as the sub CM one. Here is my set for this one:
Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat
- Trick
- Energy Ball

Downsides to Chandelure are:
  • In some games it will be just a sack
  • Pursuit trappers (mainly AV Alolan Muk)
  • You may have to bait some of the mons listed above to check if they aren't using a set with uncommon moves (like Earthquake Buzzwole or bulky Knock Off Scizor)
This is my first analysis post here and I would love to know what you think about it. Feel free to agree/disagree with it. Thank you for reading.
 

I feel like Weavile changed a lot since we banned it during Beta, I mean, the metagame changed a lot. Weavile has three dominant sets: Life Orb AoA, Choice Band, and Icium SD. Life Orb All-out Attacker is by far its best set; it has a solid Speed tier, is strong, and can pick a coverage move in the last slot, such as Poison Jab or Low Kick. However, I feel like this set is still underwhelming, since Weavile is really easy to wear down if there's Stealth Rock, and the Life Orb recoil doesn't help it either. There are many walls in the tier as well, such as Suicune, Buzzwole, Mega Steelix, defensive Mega Swampert, and even Icium Tentacruel. Choice Band is also pretty good, as it can Pursuit trap some tier staples such as Latias, Celebi, and Mega Pidgeot, but it lacks the needed power to OHKO what it needs to (it can't OHKO Mega Aerodactyl and Hydreigon with Ice Shard, for example), and being locked into Pursuit or Ice Shard is terrible since it gives many setup opportunities to foes. Lastly, Icium Z + Swords Dance can OHKO shit after one SD and all, but I think it's a pretty low reward Pokemon because it doesn't find as many setup opportunities as the other setup sweepers, such as Buzzwole and Mega Aerodactyl. Being weak to two of the most common priorities in the tier and Stealth Rock makes Weavile really easy to wear down, especially because it has many defensive and offensive checks, and even if it's a strong and fast wallbreaker, it doesn't deserve to be in BL anymore.

Ok imma talk about some mons I'm liking a lot.


Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roar
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The metagame was very unkind for RoarCune before the drops; Raikou was way more dangerous, it was a fodder to Bisharp and Latias if asleep, Specs Keldeo was a nuisance, Clefable was a better Calm Mind sweeper, and well, Vincune was in overall better than RoarCune. The tier shift happened, and while Xurkitree dropped, most of the Pokemon which annoyed Suicune rose, such as Clefable, Bisharp, and Clefable. Now, Suicune checks a plethora of offensive threats, such as Mamoswine, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Swampert, and unlike Slowbro, it can check Dark-types, such as Krookodile and Weavile, and Mega Blastoise. It's also a really good phazer, and this means Pokemon such as Scizor, Mega Aerodactyl, and Buzzwole struggle to set up on Suicune.


Crawdaunt @ Waterium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
This tier shift brought us really aggressive Pokemon, such as Mamoswine, Mega Pidgeot, Xurkitree, and Buzzwole, but it also brought us less aggressive walls, such as Alolan Muk and Mega Steelix. Crawdaunt finds setup opportunities against most of the walls in the tier, such as Slowbro, Suicune, Empoleon, Mega Steelix, and Alolan Muk. It also finds many setup opportunities against many attackers, such as Choice locked Latias and Hydreigon, Weavile, and Metagross. Y'all know the rest, Crawdaunt sets up, then wallbreak, and win games. I just wanted to highlight how good Crawdaunt is right now.


Buzzwole @ Rockium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Stone Edge
- Leech Life
- Earthquake
We all know Buzzwole is one of the best, if not the best, Pokemon in the tier, but I think this set is quite new. Bulk Up + Roost Buzzwole is already a good set because of its defensive stats, but I didn't see anyone using offensive Bulk Up, which is a really solid set. I am using Rockium Z because it legit OHKOes any Flying-type, even without a Bulk Up boost. Earthquake hits Nidoqueen, Tentacruel, Mega Steelix, and Cobalion, while Leech Life is a STAB move that recovers Buzzwole's health. The given EV spread allows Buzzwole to outspeed Timid Primarina and Adamant Scizor. I'll leave some calcs bellow to show how this set is efficient.
252+ Atk Buzzwole Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 472-556 (126.2 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Buzzwole Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 196 HP / 96 Def Crobat: 486-572 (135 - 158.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Buzzwole Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Buzzwole Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 289-340 (96 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Buzzwole Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 226-267 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Buzzwole Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 255-301 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 236 Def Tentacruel: 396-466 (109 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 282-334 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
 
I'm going to skip the whole discussion about Houndoom and share my thoughts on the more interesting Weavile. For the record, I've played around 60 games on alts with different Weavile teams with varying success.





The sets I've been playing are Band, Icium SD and LO 4 attacks. First, SD is ass: Weavile’s bad defensive typing and terrible bulk make it very hard to set up, and sweeping even harder. Band Weavile is definitely a better set, but still has been rather underwhelming in my games: while it was the most appealing item at first, maximizing Weavile's immediate power with no recoil, it locking Weavile into a move is a huge drawback. Ice and Dark, while being good offensive types, are individually resisted by many Pokémon and are much easier to play around if you can’t switch from one stab to another (especially if using Ice Shard or Pursuit). So LO 4 attacks is the best Weavile set in my opinion, as it still gives Weavile a needed boost in power but also lets it switch moves and potentially lure switch-ins with coverage moves like Low Kick.


Moving on to Weavile’s viability in general, I haven’t found it to have any broken aspect in the current metagame. As a pursuiter, it gets big competition from Muk-A, which was often more useful than Weavile on my bulky teams thanks to its better typing, bulk, utility and reliability; but it differentiates himself from Muk by having a really useful speed tier that lets it easily revenge kill stuff, although it really wishes it had a bit more power to turn some 2HKOs into OHKOs. The worst things about Weavile, though, are that it is easily walled by various Pokémon depending on its coverage move (Cobalion and Sharpedo if no Low Kick, Primarina if lacking Poison Jab, Buzzwole unless running Aerial Ace) and easily stopped by faster Pokémon and common priority users (thinking about Scizor and Conkeldurr), making it very tricky to use sometimes, if not deadweight. Add to this a pitiful defensive typing and bulk, and you have a Pokémon far less threatening than some make it out to be.


Don’t get me wrong, Weavile’s still a good mon, and I don’t see it being ranked under A- on viability rankings, but it definitely doesn’t deserve to remain banned from UU any longer.
Heck I was gonna use that gif

After building/playing with Weavile for a bit, I don't have that much to say that other people haven't already, it's good, but not too good, as he has several flaws and a good amount of competition for his role. I'd like to mention a few mons I found paired well with Weavile during my testing, to give a good idea of how he fits into the meta as it stands.


By far Weavile's best defensive partner. Tent's typing and bulk allows him to, at the least, hard check some of the most threatening pokemon to Weavile, such as Cobalion, Scizor, and Sylveon, while also providing hazard control, something that is almost mandatory when using Weavile. In return, Vile traps the psychic types (mainly Latias) that threaten Tentacruel.


As it is, Xurkitree already tears apart bulkier teams, but his reign of terror can be stopped short by a faster mon like Latias, Sceptile, or Aerodactyl, and, without a boost or if choice-locked into an electric attack, can be annoyed by the presence of bulky grass types. Just so happens that Weavile threatens all of those mons, making for an incredible offensive partner. In return, Xurkitree can blow through bulky waters like Primarina that threaten Weavile. It's important to note that neither of these mons can switch-in on many attacks, so a good volt-turn core or a strong defensive backbone is necessary to make up for this.


Buzzwole works with Weavile in a similar vein to Tentacruel, taking on Scizor and Cobalion while benefitting from the fast psychics Vile traps. The difference is, Buzz trades the better typing and hazard control for more offensive presence, reliable recovery and a better counter to Sciz/Coba. Just be sure to compensate for the shared weaknesses if you pair these two together.


Lastly, RD Pert is a fantastic cleaner in this meta, but struggles with bulky grasses and dragons like Celebi and Latias, who can eat an Ice Punch if healthy and either deal massive damage to it or kill it outright. You should know the drill by now: Weavile traps these mons, paving a way for Pert to clean lategame. Rocks Pert can also be used to better take on Vile's checks while also providing hazard support, and still benefits from Weavile's trapping.
 
I know this is kinda off-topic, but I want to give you my thoughts on Chandelure.

I've been using Chandelure since I first started playing UU and it has been a staple in most of my teams. It has a lot going for it:
  • High special attack
  • Nice STAB moves (Fire is nice and ghost has few real resistances)
  • Its typing allows it to hard counter a lot of mons and setup/fire off strong attacks, as I will cover later
  • It's a nice rapid spin blocker (at least against Forretress and Tsareena)
  • Flash fire gives makes it counter more mons, possibly being a win condition against a choice locked Infernape or Entei
Chandelure can have main three roles: A wallbreaker (sub cm), a hard hitter(specs) and a revenge killer(scarf). I think the latter one is no really the best right now. It's not really fast and it would be slower than a Xurkitree with +1 speed, which is the main reason almost all teams have a scarfer.

The first one can start setting up in a lot of mons -Cobalion, Buzzwole, Blissey, Tsareena, bulky Scizor,Forretress- making it, with Buzzwole and Crawdaunt, the best way to counter stall. If played well, it just wins against it. Blissey (the main answer to any special attacker) won't be able to touch you unless it's running shadow ball, but most stall players don't like the idea of giving up on a move slot for that. Haze Tentacruel can be a problem, but most stall teams run it with mixed defenses and somewhat speed, and having no reliable recovery makes it not really a counter. Against other playstyles, even if there's no chance to set up, it is still a mon with 427 spA (modest nature). This is my set for this:
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball

The specs set is kinda overlooked, but it is really nice. It gets a powerful attack almost everytime one of the mons listed above come in. It is also a nice Hydreigon bait (!), doing 63.3 to 74.7% with overheat. Running trick also helps against walls, although not being as effective as the sub CM one. Here is my set for this one:
Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat
- Trick
- Energy Ball

Downsides to Chandelure are:
  • In some games it will be just a sack
  • Pursuit trappers (mainly AV Alolan Muk)
  • You may have to bait some of the mons listed above to check if they aren't using a set with uncommon moves (like Earthquake Buzzwole or bulky Knock Off Scizor)
This is my first analysis post here and I would love to know what you think about it. Feel free to agree/disagree with it. Thank you for reading.
Okay, you forgot the part about how 80 speed is really shitty for an offensive mon with subpar bulk and rocks weakness, it's scarf set is outsped by mega aero, which isn't good especially for a scarfer and it's kind of dead weight vs offense in this super speed meta. I also question why run HP on Chandelure when it fails to live hits either way. SubCm does break stall sure but there aren't better mons who do the same thing and aren't so matchup dependent (I.e. Togekiss, Xurk) and 2HKOing hydreigon is irrelevant since A. The SpA drop is crippling and it just forces you out with dark pulse or draco,and if you're gonna run chande, max speed max SpA timid is p much the only way to go lest you're forced to click energy ball every time if there's a mega blastoise, which is disadvantageous since grass has so many resists.

Hope you have read this and learned something, and realize I don't mean to be a dick if I sound like it here
 
Okay, you forgot the part about how 80 speed is really shitty for an offensive mon with subpar bulk and rocks weakness, it's scarf set is outsped by mega aero, which isn't good especially for a scarfer and it's kind of dead weight vs offense in this super speed meta. I also question why run HP on Chandelure when it fails to live hits either way. SubCm does break stall sure but there aren't better mons who do the same thing and aren't so matchup dependent (I.e. Togekiss, Xurk) and 2HKOing hydreigon is irrelevant since A. The SpA drop is crippling and it just forces you out with dark pulse or draco,and if you're gonna run chande, max speed max SpA timid is p much the only way to go lest you're forced to click energy ball every time if there's a mega blastoise, which is disadvantageous since grass has so many resists.

Hope you have read this and learned something, and realize I don't mean to be a dick if I sound like it here
Hi MasterAmpharos, I'm gonna try to answer your points here:
  • I agree it is not a nice scarfer right now and is a dead weight in some matches, as I said in the original post
  • The way I use the choice specs one is to team it up with some bulky mons (like AV conkeldurr, sylveon, or scizor), and after hitting something really hard I switch to them. This spread allows you to outspeed most of the things that you would want, and I even agree with running max speed, but I really prefer modest over timid on this mon. I run some HP because it makes me feel more comfortable with using it in this role this way.
  • I usually run hazard control to help it switch in more easily
  • My point about hydreigon is it can't come in twice. If you switch to some wall chandelure is free to fire off some other attacks, which your opponent probably doesn't have much for besides hydreigon, and it will think twice about switching in again.
  • I disagree: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 207-244 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 167-197 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Sure, it won't come in when mega blastoise is out on the field, but that's not when it should come. It should switch in when your opponent has one of those other mons (like forretress) and then proceed to fire off big hits on everything. If your opponent tries to save their forretress or cobalion by going into mega blastoise, hydreigon, primarina, volcanion or krookodile they will be dead soon. This is why I prefer running the specs set with some bulky mons support.​
  • I prefer sub CM chandelure over xurkitree and togekiss for wallbreaking because it has more chances to setup during non-stall matches because of its typing. (I also hate these mons on a personal level but I don't think it matters in this discussion).
By no ways I feel you're trying to be a dick, I think it's nice if someone disagrees with me because that's the whole point of the forum. Feel free to reply again or pm me (I'm usually in the happy place with the name of darksafadao or safadaomaster4(or some other number)). Thanks for replying.
 
Hi MasterAmpharos, I'm gonna try to answer your points here:
  • I agree it is not a nice scarfer right now and is a dead weight in some matches, as I said in the original post
  • The way I use the choice specs one is to team it up with some bulky mons (like AV conkeldurr, sylveon, or scizor), and after hitting something really hard I switch to them. This spread allows you to outspeed most of the things that you would want, and I even agree with running max speed, but I really prefer modest over timid on this mon. I run some HP because it makes me feel more comfortable with using it in this role this way.
  • I usually run hazard control to help it switch in more easily
  • My point about hydreigon is it can't come in twice. If you switch to some wall chandelure is free to fire off some other attacks, which your opponent probably doesn't have much for besides hydreigon, and it will think twice about switching in again.
  • I disagree: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 207-244 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 167-197 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Sure, it won't come in when mega blastoise is out on the field, but that's not when it should come. It should switch in when your opponent has one of those other mons (like forretress) and then proceed to fire off big hits on everything. If your opponent tries to save their forretress or cobalion by going into mega blastoise, hydreigon, primarina, volcanion or krookodile they will be dead soon. This is why I prefer running the specs set with some bulky mons support.​
  • I prefer sub CM chandelure over xurkitree and togekiss for wallbreaking because it has more chances to setup during non-stall matches because of its typing. (I also hate these mons on a personal level but I don't think it matters in this discussion).
By no ways I feel you're trying to be a dick, I think it's nice if someone disagrees with me because that's the whole point of the forum. Feel free to reply again or pm me (I'm usually in the happy place with the name of darksafadao or safadaomaster4(or some other number)). Thanks for replying.
Toge gets more setup chances due to its bulk, reliable recovery, and twave.

Good players will predict your chandelure to come out if they have a something like forretress out themselves.

You may get some benchmarks on 2hko with modest but timid is better as we both agreed. Specs Hydreigon and Prima has better coverage and are generally better at using Choice Specs.

Overheat leaves you crippled because of the drop.

And on a last note, hazard removal in UU doesn't have reliable recovery outside of Lati/Starmie and they're all easily worn down, so it's a struggle to keep rocks off the field.
 
Toge gets more setup chances due to its bulk, reliable recovery, and twave.

Good players will predict your chandelure to come out if they have a something like forretress out themselves.

You may get some benchmarks on 2hko with modest but timid is better as we both agreed. Specs Hydreigon and Prima has better coverage and are generally better at using Choice Specs.

Overheat leaves you crippled because of the drop.

And on a last note, hazard removal in UU doesn't have reliable recovery outside of Lati/Starmie and they're all easily worn down, so it's a struggle to keep rocks off the field.
  • Depends on what your team needs and how weak it is to bulky Scizor (same idea for Primarina). But I agree Togekiss can also do nice in a role like this. (Yes, I'm aware of flamethrower, but still).
  • Of course this is a possibility.
  • I said in the post "I prefer modest over timid". I don't like specs Hydreigon because the scarf set is just better at the current meta and it gives lots of free switch-ins. Primarina can also be nice at this role, I agree. Also notice with 180 Spe Chandelure outspeeds any Primarina (except random scarf) and lots of teams would switch it in and get 2HKO. This doesn't mean Chandelure is a better choice specs user than Primarina in every team, I just wanted to use this moment to also give more information on this set.
  • Overheat is used because the idea is to fire off a big attack and run. But if you really want you can run Fire Blast, although it is more inaccurute.
  • It is. Personally, I really used specs Chandelure before all the big drops that happenned in june, now I prefer sub CM. But when I did use it I would have a double defogger (yes, it worked) with Latias and Empoleon, because I also had Entei on my team.
  • By no means it is perfect, but it definitely has a nice niche in UU, as a wallbreaker or as a hard hitter
 
Buzzwole is disgusting.

I've been running Mega Steelix for a while on a fat balance (Or, as I refer to it, in compromise with the majority of people, who see a Blissey and assume it's stall, "Frag Stall") team, in a core with Blissey, which it dominates with. I've been doing very well with it (for me anyway), and with Xurkitree on a rampage the way it is I can see keeping Steelix there even once Aggronite arrives.

I've been using this set:

Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
The Special Defense investment here is just enough to let Steelix tank a hydro pump from offensive Starmie, which is more useful than you might think. It's saved me on numerous occasions. The leftover EVs are self-explanatory.
Here're replays of how well the BlissLix core does:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-590816807
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-600329364
Keep in mind, before any of you start bashing me for ladder, that it's ladder. It's a wild ride, plus it's hard to find any good replays I have from higher up or from tours.
Anyway, since both Steelix and Blissey are weak to fighting, and have trouble checking ground-types, you might want multiple fighting resists and/or at least one bulky water, though the latter is practically mandatory outside of offense. Amoonguss and bulky Primarina would be examples of good picks.
 
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Amaroq

Avatar courtesy of DrReuniclus
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
As a member of the rotating council, I'm supposed to post my thoughts on Weavile. By this point, I've played enough to form an opinion about it. Aquadext sums up that opinion quite well here. The meta has changed significantly since Weavile was initially banned. It's still a good Pokemon with excellent offensive stats, a nice offensive typing, and a decent movepool that includes priority, Pursuit, Knock Off, and the coverage options it needs, but its horrible defensive typing and bulk make it very difficult for Weavile to contribute any defensive utility to a team (which is something even offensive teams demand from their members to some degree) and it faces competition from other Pokemon in any role it could conceivably play. Muk, Krookodile, Scizor, and many other Pokemon in UU serve as viable Pursuit users in UU, each with their own benefits and detriments. Mamoswine, Scizor, Conkeldurr, Entei, and other Pokemon provide powerful priority. Weavile struggles to differentiate itself significantly from these other Pokemon and establish itself as either the metagame's premier trapper or premier priority user. By no means is it bad at either role, but these are its major selling points (UU has tons of wallbreakers and fast cleaners) and it isn't so good at either as to be broken.



Life Orb and Choice Band are the only Weavile sets I think are any good (SD is awful, don't use it). Life Orb is overall the best set, as Weavile doesn't care too much about the recoil since it's not switching in too often or taking many hits and values the ability to switch moves more than the health it saves by using Choice Band. Choice Band is a good option on teams that need specific threats trapped and removed and are willing to dedicate a slot to guaranteeing that (stall is probably the greatest beneficiary of this, but it can have its benefits on other archetypes). Weavile struggles to fit all the moves it wants onto a given set (it really wants Ice Shard, Knock Off, Icicle Crash, Pursuit, Low Kick, Aerial Ace, and Poison Jab, because it either loses to something or lacks a valuable STAB/offensive utility move).



The more I play, the more I start to think Buzzwole might be broken. It's so incredibly versatile and has so much offensive and defensive pressure. If it walled most of the tier's physical attackers without its insane offensive presence or presented a significant offensive threat without retaining amazing bulk, I'd have no trouble declaring it balanced, but the combination of the two makes me wonder if it really has a healthy influence on the tier. Further consideration is needed.
 
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DrReuniclus

Smogon's full of bullies.
is a Tiering Contributor
Guess I'm going to be the party pooper here and say that I disagree with the majority opinion in the thread about Weavile. I've played probably 50-60 games on alts with it and I think that the sheer amount of pressure it puts while building is enough to merit it to be too much for the meta. Yeah, most people are saying its fine, but that's mostly because a lot of people are just slapping a Buzzwole to a team and calling that a good enough check and fine switch in, while adding some priority here or there in bullet punch or mach punch. The one thing I'm curious about with the post is the way you guys want the meta to develop. I honestly thought Buzzwole wasn't completely necessary to most teams prior to Weavile's drop, sure its a great mon and almost beneficial to have on most teams, but now I believe it almost to be a necessity for bulky offense, as of Weavile's drop, if they want something that can consistently switch in to this mon and keep offensive presence.

Let me continue the post by saying I don't believe Buzzwole is broken currently, but this is something I believe to be similar to the Hydreigon and Sylveon situation we had in ORAS, where Hydreigon restricts teambuilding so much that putting a Sylveon on every team is just simple because its easy glue to check it and can fit almost anywhere. Just replace Buzzwole with Sylveon and Weavile with Hydreigon. This lead us to get rid of neither and have a sort of common theme towards the end of teambuilding in ORAS with Sylveon everywhere. I'm not saying this is an exact comparison as I don't believe Buzzwole to be as restrictive competitively as I felt Sylveon was to the ORAS metagame and everyone agrees Weavile cannot switch into as much defensively as Hydreigon which is probably one of the major selling points for most on keeping it unbanned and probably going to be one of the major arguments against this post, however I do believe Weavile makes up for its poor defensive typing in additional offensive utility compared to Hydreigon in ORAS (You may disagree with this but this isn't the main point I'm trying to argue here I'm saying its broken in this metagame, not ORAS, the comparison was just a standing point for one mon being one of the only major checks to another in a tier for a playstyle.)

I believe Weavile's biggest selling point, its offensive presence, is being seriously undersold as other than Buzzwole there are almost no offensive switch ins to this mon when Weavile gets a chance to come in. With the life orb set, offensive Mega Swampert takes half from icicle crash and gets 2 hit after rocks, while defensive gets 3 shot, Primarina takes a little less than half from knock off and can only come in once if rocks are up while also hating the loss of its choice specs, Infernape can come in once on one of Weavile's moves, but fears losing scarf from knock off unless you are running some z move set and takes half from low kick regardless, Mega Blastoise can come in once on knock off if rocks are up. It is almost necessary to either run Buzzwole or miss having a decent offensive to switch in as its offensive coverage just covers too many options even just from its stabs and a single coverage move. There's also the fact that knock off is such a spammable move in itself and a majority of these offensive mons already cannot stand losing their items, like the two mons mentioned above, Terrakion, Conkeldurr if it doesn't get its flame orb off and Scizor and even defensive switch ins have a pain with losing them, leaving few reasons not to click it a decent portion of the time. Additionally, Weavile's speed tier is the cherry on top as hitting 383 allows it to have a chance to play pursuit/offensive move coverage mindgames with a variety of common offensive mons such as Raikou, Pidgeot, Latias, Azelf, and various other threats. Even getting these predictions wrong and not hitting pursuit allows you to hit a "switch in" for a relatively large amount of damage. It can also ice shard/pursuit threaten the 4 mons that are naturally faster than it in Crobat/Mega Beedrill/Mega Sceptile/Mega Aerodactyl if they have already come in once before with rocks up and common scarfers like Krookodile, Hydreigon and Latias are all weak to the priority ice coverage, which allows for Weavile to sweep a lot towards the end game after most of its checks are even slightly weakened. Finally, figuring out Weavile's moveset can be a pain when you aren't running Buzzwole as you can't really have a dedicated way to figure out the fourth move whether it be low kick, pursuit, one of the other coverage options or the rare sd and guessing which one of the coverage your opponent has before he reveals it requires a lot of scouting and can easily put you in a bad position.

Overall I just believe the removal of Weavile allows for more team diversity on bulky offense without having to look for the same go to mon in Buzzwole to have a switch in and STILL have to worry about Weavile possibly creating 50/50s of pursuit trapping a portion of your team or losing a majority of your items from knock off in the process. I feel like building will become bland with Weavile in the tier as people will rely on Buzzwole for their main answer and I feel there is a lot more diversity we still could have explored with the mons we had before Weavile came back. I don't think this'll make much of a difference as most of these posts made by non council members in this thread do, might even get made fun of in private chats, but Tony's open discussion thing about council decisions made me try giving it a shot. Sorry if there are any mistakes its 5 AM but I wanted something to go up to show there is some opposition to this choice.
 
I agree with most of that post, but in my opinion Weavile's strengths vs offense are being slightly exaggerated.

Not many things in offense can directly switch into Weavile, but that's not unheard of in UU. Pokemon like Conkeldurr, Aerodactyl-Mega, Sharpedo-Mega, Beedrill-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Primarina, Latias, Mamoswine, etc lack reliable, viable offensive checks and either force you to play around them (saccing, revenge killing, trading hits, etc) or run a hard check, which usually isn't ideal when you are running offense. Obviously none of those Pokemon can pull Knock Off + Pursuit + Priority, but they all have unique traits that allow them to threaten offense.

Something that needs to be mentioned is how hard getting Weavile in play is. One of the worst defensive types with a really uncommon immunity, SR weakness, and subpar bulk. Weavile can't really switch into most of the tier, risks getting KOd on the switch by pretty much every Pokemon it can play "50-50" mindgames with and losing some of those mindgames means Weavile gets KOd, it isn't the kind of Pokemon that can afford trading hits (even relatively frail Pokemon like Xurkitree trade favorably vs Weavile if SR is up in both sides), it's fairly easy to revenge kill, and just forcing it out causes major problems to the Weavile user.

Buzzwole is going to drastically help your offensive team vs Weavile, but:

1) Also helps vs Sharpedo, Swampert, Mamoswine, Conkeldurr, Cobalion, etc. Even if you remove Weavile, Buzzwole viability and usage will not drop because it checks some of the biggest threats vs offense

2) You really don't need to run Buzzwole to play around Weavile
 

Sacri'

Itching for a fight
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

I played a fair amount of games with and without Weavile and I wasn't very impressed. It has a good match up versus offensive teams but that's all it has going for it. It's not particularly strong, it has troubles finding opportunities to come in and it is weak to rocks, mach punch and bullet punch which makes revenge killing weavile a much easier task. Pursuit is alright but we have a bunch of good pokemons that I find better at pursuit trapping because they can actually come in on the threats you'd want to trap. I sort of agree with the idea that building is becoming bland but I highly doubt Weavile would be a culprit of that.

For instance, I'm currently having a rough time dealing with Swampert Mega when I use offensive teams; it is super hard to OHKO, it doesn't mind any of the priorities running around and it is extremely hard to check whenever it finds an opportunity to set rain up. I currently do not think Swampert is broken enough to warrant a ban yet I've found it way more threatening to offensive teams than Weavile.


As stated by a few others, Buzzwole is also something I've been struggling with as of late. Technically it can be dealt with but the plethora of options it has make it hard to check constently, another problem that I have with Buzzwole is that it seems extremeley centralizing. It didn't seem as obvious when it first dropped but the more I play the more I realize that this metagame is all about Buzzwole. I thought it through a lot and I'm starting to believe it might actually have a negative impact despite how much it helps to deal with the overwhelming amount of threats we have got in the current metagame. Buzzwoles poor special bulk makes it seem like any special attacker can damage it heavily but when invested in HP and SpD Buzzwole is able to do fun things like tanking Psychic from Soul Dew Latias, not being 2HKO'd by Sceptile, living Hydreigon's fire blast and that list goes on. It's worth noting that even without Def EVs it is still able to deal with most physical threats without much problem. I voted do not ban last time Buzzwole was brought up in votes but I'm seriously considering voting ban if I'm given the opportunity to do so for the above reasons.
 
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DrReuniclus

Smogon's full of bullies.
is a Tiering Contributor
I agree that I exaggerated Weavile's offensive capabilities to a point. However, I mostly just think you're going about this the wrong way around. I believe the next step you guys will go is to look at Buzzwole based on peoples' posts and ban it. I'm not saying this is a bad thing as the meta does need to change as building offense is stale as of now, but, after going to Buzzwole and banning it, I feel you'll really see what Weavile is able to do as a mon, regardless of its poor defensive typing, unless metagame shifts happen with drops that really shake up the game. I'd rather just snip a problem in the bud than go back and look at it later when its become a full problem, but I guess that's just thinking too far ahead and you'd rather take it one step at a time or I could be completely wrong. (I don't have time to write another post like that to argue it and weavile is not getting banned no matter what I say here). I also still stand by my thoughts in the first post that I don't think its healthy even with buzzwole here as the current metagame just isn't that enjoyable teambuilding wise.

On a separate note, I do appreciate getting public feedback though even if you disagree with me because I think its important for most of the people playing the tier to see what you discuss and want public feedback on what your guys' thoughts are on the suspects. I know it might be kind of dumb, but each of you being more public individually is something that really helps the community and this is part of the reason I kind of suggest bringing these back just because there are some council members who have a lot going on and don't really touch the thread for each of the suspects and just make their votes behind the scenes without posting here much at all during the suspect. Just, as a player, if I disagree with a vote I should at least hear the opinions from all the people voting opposed to what I think rather than just get a blob consensus as it feels more open that way, even if it can get a little repetitive. I just think its fair to the people to hear from everyone.
 
I have used Weavile for approximately 100 games, all featuring different playstyles. A lot of users pretty much summed up everything going for it but I would still like to share my own thoughts on it.

Weavile's only viable sets are Life Orb, Choice Band and Swords Dance. I used Swords Dance for about 5 games and realized how bad that set is so I am not going to touch it.

Life Orb is the preferred set for more offensive builds. The freedom of switching up moves, while still boosting its attack is way preferred than the extra power Choice Band gives it. Its set is always Icicle Crash, Knock Off, Ice Shard and Filler. Filler could be a variety of choices, from Poison Jab, to Pursuit and to even Aerial Ace – unpredictability is another thing I found going for Weavile. The recoil dealt isn't that much of a problem considering the fact you don't throw in Weavile on an attack but you make sure it switches in safely.

Choice Band is the preferred set for more defensive builds, such as Stall and Balance to an extent. The extra power is necessary on those builds to make sure its Pursuit does as much damage as it could so Weavile still traps the kinds of Latias if it doesn't switch out. Overall, the extra damage is really appreciated by those more defensive builds as it can even be a wincon for stall, a late-game cleaner. The main downside of the Choice Band set, in my opinion, is the mind-games it forces with Pursuit – if you get the wrong call you can be doomed.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-593666089

All-in-all however, Weavile doesn't look broken to my eyes. It gives me the vibes of it in ORAS OU, which it clearly wasn’t broken in. It is deadly, can 2HKO almost everything, but is extremely susceptible for what it can't 2HKO – steel types such as Scizor and Mega Steelix and some bulky fairies, entry hazards, almost anything faster than it that has enough health to take an Ice Shard and almost every priority in the game. These weaknesses are what holds Weavile back from being broken.

If Weavile gets freed from BL, it’s most likely going to be ranked either A or A+.

FREE WEAVILE.
 


I agree with many of the points posted above, Weavile is simply not a threat in this current metagame. It's speed, while still relatively high, can no longer rival the faster Pokemon in the current Metagame such as M-Aerodactyl, M-Beedrill etc. Offensively, the prevalence of Buzzwole really gives Weavile a hard time. The fact that it has arguably one of the worst defensive typings in the game as well as incredibly low defenses, also makes it extremely difficult to switch Weavile in. STAB Icicle Crash also only has 85 BP, which evens out its stellar Attack stat. In my opinion, I see Xurkitree and Buzzwole as being far more significant threats in the current Metagame. There hasn't been a single game I've spectated or played in where I felt Weavile was too imbalanced for this Meta.
 

Sacri'

Itching for a fight
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I agree that I exaggerated Weavile's offensive capabilities to a point. However, I mostly just think you're going about this the wrong way around. I believe the next step you guys will go is to look at Buzzwole based on peoples' posts and ban it. I'm not saying this is a bad thing as the meta does need to change as building offense is stale as of now, but, after going to Buzzwole and banning it, I feel you'll really see what Weavile is able to do as a mon, regardless of its poor defensive typing, unless metagame shifts happen with drops that really shake up the game. I'd rather just snip a problem in the bud than go back and look at it later when its become a full problem, but I guess that's just thinking too far ahead and you'd rather take it one step at a time or I could be completely wrong. (I don't have time to write another post like that to argue it and weavile is not getting banned no matter what I say here). I also still stand by my thoughts in the first post that I don't think its healthy even with buzzwole here as the current metagame just isn't that enjoyable teambuilding wise.
You hit the nail on the head, that is where we disagree. I don't see a reason to let Weavile remain in BL because there is a possibilty Buzzwole could get banned later on. The departure of Buzzwole is entirely hypothetical so that alone means we shouldn't take any decision based off something that might not even happen. And even if Weavile does turn out to be broken without Buzzwole (I still think we can handle Weavile just fine without Buzz but let's assume I'm wrong) nothing prevents the council from just banning it again. I personally don't think suspecting one pokemon multiple times is an issue as long as the decision taken ends up being beneficial for the metagame. I agree that building good teams has gotten harder but Offense is probably the playstyle that suffers the least from the amount of threats we're currently dealing with. All those threats brings new restrictions to Offensive teams, however they also provide them with fantastic new options. On the other hand, the only thing that bulkier styles have gained is Steelix Mega (you could also argue that Buzzwole can be used on stall but it can be used absolutely everywhere so each playstyle gain a new option, same for pert mega), other than that those styles have to handle a bunch of new powerful threats with the same pokemons which makes building viable Balanced and Stalls harder than ever. I'm not sure how to go about making building more diverse (other than removing Xurk which is a no brainer to me) so yeah that is something the council will have to work on. Regardless, I don't think unbanning Weavile will restrict teambuilding nearly as much as you seem to think.
 
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Eyan

the great one with wings of steel
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I kinda have to post, so here I am.
[insert Weavile sprite because sprites apparently make a post more appealing and stuff
]

Honestly, there isn't much I can say that hasn't already been said, so I'll give an overview regarding which side I'm standing on (as brief as someone like me could make it anyway). Not sure exactly how many games I've played with Weavile (probably within the low 100s), since I've just been testing out different teams on my phone as I travel from place to place, but I'm definitely on the unban side. I used several of my old offense teams, ran into quite a few, and I really didn't struggle too much with dealing with Weavile. To me, it's just another threat to the archetype that you can play around with a combination of stuff like Steel-types such as Cobalion and Scizor, Fairy-types like Primarina and Sylveon, and just keeping it pressured with Stealth Rock and common priority in Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, depending on what set the Weavile is running (specifically the coverage move if it's not running Pursuit). This really isn't anything new for offense players; it's pretty much a big part of the nature of the playstyle. Yes, it'll still be pretty nice with its speed and power, being able to pick off threats like Mega Sceptile, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Pidgeot, but it has a sufficient number of ways to deal with it without restricting normal teambuilding in any playstyle, unless you're just unable to adapt to accounting for it.

All this is what I feel about Weavile in the tier at the moment without even considering the aforementioned behemoth known as Buzzwole. I will concede that Buzzwole is an extremely good Pokemon, and frankly, whether it'll wind up being too much for the tier is still very much in the air for me depending on how things go. That said, I've never once slapped Buzzwole on the team thinking "oh I have to use this Pokemon on all my offense teams because I can't beat Weavile without it". It was just a nice Pokemon to have considering all the other things it checks, so I chose it. I heavily dislike slippery slope arguments, so I'm not getting all hypothetical about what would happen if Buzzwole gets the boot, when Buzzwole starts appearing on all teams, etc. I'm just saying that whether I'm in favour or against keeping the muscular beast holds little to no water in his Weavile suspect.

As far as using Weavile goes, Aquadext pretty much has my sentiments, with Choice Band and Life Orb being the most useful sets. One has more power and slightly more longevity without the Life Orb recoil, which lets it come in and click a STAB move to weaken opposing teams as much as possible and then cleaning late-game with them or just Ice Shard. The Life Orb set gets the ability to switch moves and weaken teams that try to pivot around it (which is why I prefer running a coverage move and leaving Pursuit to Choice Band sets) for recoil damage, so it's likely to come in fewer times than if it were running Choice Band and is less likely to be able to clean late-game (not saying it can't; it's just more annoying to not get KOed before then after Stealth Rock and recoil) unless you have some Healing Wish support of the sort.
 
I somewhat regret accepting the council spot, nobody told me SBB would get to vote. Oh well, I'll still do my best and I honestly appreciate the opportunity.

Regarding Weavile, I'll vote unban because:
  • I agree with all the unban posts so far (while Weavile is fast and strong, its not too strong and definitely has major defensive issues)
  • The one ban post said some of the reasoning to ban Weavile is because they think Buzzwole will be banned, this is too far in the future for me to agree with. I will vote based on the current metagame, not hypothetical ones
  • One of the posts already mentioned it, but yeah I have no problem if a Pokemon has few offensive switch ins. We just let Xurkitree stay in and that has essentially zero defensive switch ins. Sure Weavile has other things, mainly speed, but having few offensive switch ins isn't even close to a sign of brokeness for me, its just a sign of being an ~A ranked threat.
  • I disagree with the idea that not knowing what moves Weavile is running is a problem, it always is checked/countered by Buzzwole, Quagsire, Primarina, faster Ice resists, Scizor, and many others. If anything, its Weavile that struggles with 4MSS
Sorry for the brevity but it's hard to add much when the past several posts have been by really strong, knowledgeable, and/or active players.

Regarding Buzzwole since that's a trending topic:
  • Just a reminder I totally called it in my previous post when I said Buzzwole was the best of the suspects (bar sun)
  • I haven't tried a specially defensive set and was unaware of it when I voted unban, if it's really great then my unban vote might have been wrong at the time
  • But as of now, with Xurkitree legal, I am uncomfortable in taking away one of the best walls in the tier when we just lost the 2nd best wall (Clefable) and gained a huge number of threats, notably the essentially unwallable Xurkitree. Steelix Mega is not a big boon for defensive teams because Steelix was already about 90% as good. I will say the offensive threats rising to UU does help relieve some pressure though
  • Also, I think an underused set is Bulk Up + 3 Attacks with Life Orb; Leech Life is all the recover you need on Hyper Offense and this is pretty close to an very heavily upgraded Bewear, which was already underrated IMO (except you are weaker to Mega Aero)
  • To reiterate, if I had to vote again right now, I would vote (still) do not ban for Buzzwole unless I am underestimating the specially defensive Bulk Up set to an extreme (which is a real possibility)
Thanks for all the posts in this thread, very good to read and I learned a lot~
 
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