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np: SUMO UU Stage 2 - Countdown

Discussion in 'UnderUsed' started by Hikari, Jun 8, 2017.

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  1. ZekromFan

    ZekromFan

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    Gross you worn down because with rocks and 2 turns of leech seed lost 30% so the second time will be at 40%.Subs is for blissey because can break the sub but you recover more hp with leech seed
  2. Hogg

    Hogg You need to work on your brand.
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    [​IMG]

    After unanimously deciding that some action needed to be taken to deal with sun teams, the council reviewed two main options: banning the ability Drought, and banning Houndoomite.

    Those who argued in favor of banning Houndoomite posited that sun was never an overwhelming playstyle before Houndoomite dropped to the tier, often being considered a subpar playstyle and receiving very little usage on the ladder or in tournaments. As Houndoomite was the staple element on the recent surge of Drought teams, and as Houndoom-Mega was the particularly problematic aspect with sun support, it was clear that Houndoomite was the issue.

    Some argued, however, that Drought itself was merely underexplored prior to Houndoomite's release, and that even without Houndoomite, Drought had the ability to become uncompetitive. Venusaur in particular was still a very effective sweeper under the sun even if it lacked the sheer power of Houndoom-Mega, and while Houndoomite was a big part of sun's recent success, they argued that sun still had the potential to be independently unhealthy for UU.

    A run-off vote was held, and the council ultimately decided in a 9-3 vote that banning Houndoomite was more in line with Smogon's tiering philosophy and was the best course of action. Therefore, Houndoomite is now banned from UnderUsed.

    Votes (open)

    BAN HOUNDOOMITE: Christo, pokeisfun, TDK, Aquadext, BOUFF, Eyan, Pearl, Sacri', Tony
    BAN DROUGHT: Hikari, hogg, Kink



    ***

    For our next re-test, the council will be suspecting Weavile! Weavile was banned in early UU Beta thanks to its incredible Speed, the power of its Knock Off, and its offensive synergy with Pokemon such as Keldeo and Breloom. However, with the addition of new checks in the tier such as Buzzwole and the rise of sets like Flame Orb Conkeldurr, as well as the departure of several of Weavile's best offensive partners, the council decided the time was ripe for a re-test.

    We will be keeping the same rotating council of Christo, pokeisfun and TDK for this test, with one exception: BOUFF is going to be unavailable for the next week, so we are temporarily adding AmaROQ as a fourth rotating council member in his place.

    [​IMG]
    SpringVibes, Santu, wishes and 44 others like this.
  3. Adaam

    Adaam
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    I'm very confused as to why Houndoom was banned, especially since the primary argument by the pro-ban side admits Sun is barely relevant in UU. If the council is supposed to vote in a way to make the meta as healthy as possible, why vote in a way to preserve a gimmicky playstyle over an actually useful Pokémon? It seems like Houndoom got the boot simply because it was released later which is completely unfair.

    Edit: Just to add we banned Baton Pass last gen despite Celebi making it broken, so I fail to see how banning Houndoom is logically justified.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
    Confide, wishes, nv and 51 others like this.
  4. MaahirMomtaz12

    MaahirMomtaz12

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    Ehhh, I'd prefer if Drought was banned instead of Mega Houndoom because clearly, Drought made Mega Houndoom broken, not the Pokémon itself
    nv, GrilloF, CoolStoryBrobat and 3 others like this.
  5. Freeroamer

    Freeroamer The greatest story of them all.

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    This is a very flawed philosophy, the reverse argument could be made ie. Houndoom made Drought broken.

    If we take it as given that sun teams are an issue in the metagame, what is actually causing those teams to be an issue? Houndoom grants sun teams the ability to combat stall, normally a very poor matchup for weather based offense, while remaining extremely potent vs balance and offense due to a combination of power and speed, meaning it's definitely rightly labbelled as a problem. Are any of the other sun abusers issues within the metagame? Venusaur is very strong, but I don't think it can be argued to be broken, nor can any other Chlorophyll abuser such as Shiftry, Leafeon or Sawsbuck. Are any other Fire types in the metagame issues under Drought? I find this a hard point to argue also considering the presence of Drought in the metagame previously causing little to no issue. Therefore, the addition of Houndoom to sun teams is what has caused sun teams to become an issue within the metagame, and therefore it is Houndoom that has been banned.
  6. Heavyweapons Mann

    Heavyweapons Mann

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    I really think Drought should have been banned instead of Mega Houndoom, because it wasn't broken outside of sun, just in conjunction with Drought. After all the threats are retested, I think Mega Houndoom should be unbanned and Drought should be banned because that causes the least collateral damage to UU.
    You keep a powerful offensive threat, while solving the issue of sun teams being broken.
  7. Adaam

    Adaam
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    I have 2 problems with this: UU banned Drizzle when Kingdra dropped (I admit I did not play at this time, but what I've been told it wasn't overbearing without Kingdra), and the ban argument implies Drought stays due to seniority. M-Doom drops --> Sun is now broken --> ban Doom. What if M-Doom was here since S/M's inception, Drought dropped to UU, and then made Houndoom broken? It's clear no other partners would make M-Houndoom banworthy, so in this case Drought looks like it would be banned. That's not fair at all.
    wishes, Jqded, GrilloF and 34 others like this.
  8. Samsuro

    Samsuro

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    ^^I'll admit I'm pretty sad to see Houndoom go. Such an awesome mon and I don't think he'll be able to shine in OU like he did in UU.
    That said however, if drought was banned in UU (which I never really used anyways in the tier) then it would also be banned in RU too. I would miss it there since it's what makes torkoal, leafeon, Venusaur etc viable.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  9. ProfessorMasterChief

    ProfessorMasterChief

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    Actually, RU wouldn't have to ban Drought. Tiers don't have to follow upper tiers when it comes to pretty much anything other than Pokémon. Last gen when UU banned Baton Pass, RU was not forced to ban it too (they did ban it, but that was their own decision, not because UU banned it).

    On the topic of which was the right choice to ban, I already stated my opinion, and Adaam already stated why I think Drought should have gotten the boot. Regardless though, I'm glad that something was done about sun, even if I didn't agree with what got banned.
    tmacbalanced and Roseguardin like this.
  10. Samsuro

    Samsuro

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    Thanks for the clarification! Didn't know that. In that case I agree also that drought should have gotten banned vs Houndoomite. There are so few megas in the lower tiers compared to OU.
  11. ZekromFan

    ZekromFan

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    One thing in the last vote in UU beta kingdra make Rain broken.Drizzle was banned .Why Drought is different? And council ban M-Doom
    Flexpikachu likes this.
  12. Heavyweapons Mann

    Heavyweapons Mann

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    Drizzle has multiple abusers. Ludicolo, Kingdra, Kabutops, Omastar?
  13. ZekromFan

    ZekromFan

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    In UU beta all this mons were in control was kingdra who push rain over the edge
    Adaam likes this.
  14. Heavyweapons Mann

    Heavyweapons Mann

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    Drizzle was voted on after Kingdra dropped.
  15. CodeRed23

    CodeRed23

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    Sun was indeed barely relevant to UU and will probably return to such for a little while, but those who argued for Drought to be banned brought up an excellent point in that it's still underexplored and rather undeveloped. And understandably so too, prior to the recent drops Hippowdon was everywhere and made dealing with sun teams as simple as leading with something that threatened Ninetales and doubling to Hippo, Sun teams can't afford to risk their setter so early on and even if they do make the bold play of staying in:
    252 SpA Ninetales Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 232-274 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 138-163 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Leftovers would keep Hippo alive even with max rolls, unless Ninetales FB first and gets the burn on top of good rolls. Mind you Bloom Doom does do 75.2 - 89%, but it's laughably weak against anything else you would normally switch in vs Tales like Hydre, A-Muk, or Lati.
    I personally believe that sun has potential to be a solid playstyle once the meta settles down a bit more and people actually start playing with it and if Drought had been banned in favor of M-doom staying, then any possibility for it to grow into something more would have cut short far before we could view it as anything else then a lackluster gimmick.
    tmacbalanced likes this.
  16. LeoLancaster

    LeoLancaster I don't want to be your hero
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    Rain was already good, and at least arguably broken (for example, dodmen posted in favor of a pre-Kingdra Drizzle ban here, and it was voted on pre-Kingdra as well). Kingdra had a smaller impact on Rain's viability than Drizzle itself. Therefore, Kingdra was the smaller culprit in breaking the metagame than Drizzle, and Drizzle was banned. In contrast, Sun has only been seen to be truly viable with Houndoom's existence; take away Drought and Houndoom is still decent, take away Houndoom and Sun is pretty bad. Houndoom has the bigger impact on Sun's viability and is therefore the bigger culprit in breaking the metagame.

    Of course, if Sun is found to be better than initially thought as the metagame develops, that would be grounds to maybe change the way the ban was handled. I'm not holding my breath, though.
  17. Bread_Wood

    Bread_Wood

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    The problem I see with comparing drizzle and drought is that drizzle has water types to abuse the speed boost and the water damage boost, while drought has fire types to abuse the damage boost and grass types to abuse the speed boost.

    This makes rain give what is essentially two boosts to its sweepers, while sun sweepers have to choose, or waste time setting up. Even though they're both weather with similarities, it's kind of hard to compare the two.
    casey90 and ZekromFan like this.
  18. ZekromFan

    ZekromFan

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    But we are compering becouse rain wasn't broken but kingdra drop and push over the edge.Same with M-doom sun wasn't broken m-doom come and is broken.In one we ban drizzle and in the other we ban M-Doom .
    Renny_ and Adaam like this.
  19. Adaam

    Adaam
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    From the official reason for banning Drizzle:

    "With Kingdra dropping to UU, Rain-based teams received a large boost in viability. Rain has already been very strong, and with the addition of Kingdra, it became significantly better. Kingdra's typing has great offensive and defensive synergy while its stats allow it to run physical as well as special sets. This malleability allowed Kingdra to make up for the flaws Rain had before its drop, and a lot of teams just lose to Rain at team preview. However, Rain itself is not the issue. If a turn has to be given up to set up Rain via Rain Dance, that can either be prevented or exploited. There is no singular Swift Swim user that is broken. Lastly, Damp Rock is not in itself a problem, as it is not broken in conjunction with Rain Dance. As such, Drizzle has been identified to be the issue and will subsequently be banned."

    I really cannot see why M-Doom is therefore banned. Just replace every instance of Kingdra with M-Doom and the statement "There is no singular Swift Swim user" with "Solar Power" user. Yes, Rain was already strong, but it was not deemed broken until Kingdra came, so that is irrelevant. I don't see why Sun needs be arbitrarily good for it to be banworthy if it gets a powerful addition
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  20. Shiba

    Shiba Joe Flacco = Elite
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    I pretty much don't post here anymore because ultimately the posts here almost never matter to the council but agreeing with Adaam that Drought is the one that should've gotten the boot just because of the previous Drizzle ban. In tiering policy it's pretty common to see people whining about precedent and what-not, and it probably should've applied here to the 2 weather abilities just for the sake of consistency.

    I couldn't care less as to what actually gets banned, I just know that Smogon prides itself on consistency in tiering/ban policy (which it's getting to on BP soon enough as a global ban) and a majority of the playerbase would rather see one type of ban (ability) or the other type (mon) regarding both weather abilities and their individual mons

    e: tldr pretty much saying uu needs a 'Drought + Drizzle Ban' or a 'Houndoom + Kingdra/whatever else is broken in rain Ban'
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  21. tmacbalanced

    tmacbalanced

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    I don't know why so many people are getting mad over mega doom getting banned (it's because mega doom is cool looking) when mega doom isn't that good of a mega anyways. Mega Doom fell to RU last gen and bounced from C+ to B rank a lot in UU; in this gen I would say that it has gotten a bit better since it can out speed the crowded 100-110 speed tier a lot easier thanks to new mega mechanic (yeah sorry for bringing that up since you've all heard it a lot before). Still, Mega Doom isn't that great solely due to the fact that there are more threats that can handle it since last gen and other megas (like bee and steelix) have gotten a lot better since last gen.
    Now, I could see why baton pass was banned over celebi, celebi was a glue mon in the tier and it was highly relevant without bp.
    Another thing, drizzle was ban worthy before kingdra dropping as Leo has already pointed out, so don't disregard proof adaam (also, no you can't replace every instance of Kingdra with Mega Doom because Drought teams aren't even close to being as good as Drizzle teams; not to mention that Drought teams aren't necessarily that good currently). But to add on to that point even more, mega swampert would be soon joining the game and once it fell to UU, it would've made drizzle ban worthy too without kingdra being on board. Not to mention, drizzle was on the edge of being broken (I remember the talks on this) before Kingdra arrived, Kingdra just pushed it over the edge (it pretty much implies that in the statement of why drizzle got banned too). I mean, even pelipper dropping would have made drizzle teams even better. Drought teams only have mega doom, that's it.
    Also, if drought mons and sun abusers are unexplored and end up being decent/good in the future (especially in this new meta) wouldn't it also be awful if they just lose out on all viability thanks to one mon? All of them being useless thanks to mega doom being in the tier, yeah that would blow dudes lol.
    So council, I'll definitely say you guys made the right decision in banning mega doom, it makes sense. If ya guys had banned drought, I would have been a little sad, but I really wouldn't care either way haha (a.k.a. I wouldn't have whined about it).
    Muscle K, tenkai, CodeRed23 and 2 others like this.
  22. MaahirMomtaz12

    MaahirMomtaz12

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    Since Drought isn't banned, It would be cool to see more Sun abusers used in the UU tier, like Shiftry, Leafeon, and others because now that Houndoom is gone, it will become a very underrated playstyle again!
  23. bsu

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    Additionally i feel like banning the pokemon and not the weather ability can lead to a bit of a slippery slope (as bad of an argument that is)

    taking a look at rain, we just got mega swampert, which currently without drizzle isn't too broken (yet). thus we allow mega swampert in the tier along with the other rain abusers since theres no rain ability

    with sun, if we ban mega houndoom instead, other mons may drop that abuse automatic sun to such an extent that well end up banning that new mon (maybe), or just bring up this kinda debate again. if we were to ban the sun ability, future mons that can benefit from sun can be explored and perhaps benefit from manual sun setting

    this argument is def not solid, but i just think the consistency here could be worked on, otherwise it seems biased towards allowing borked swift swim users to stay while banning mons that benefit from sun (already rare enough)
  24. Bread_Wood

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    The way I've always understood it is that bans lean towards simplicity whenever possible. If a plethora of mons dropped or emerged that abused the heck out of autosun, sun would probably get banned, rather than ban all those mons. Doom would probably be brought back too. Basically, it's easier to ban 1 ability than several Pokemon. Similarly, it's easier to ban one Pokemon than ban an ability that is only broken because of it that one mon.

    For rain, it was really powerful before (see my above comment about rain being intrinsically stronger than sun) and gained a deadly sweeper in kingdra. Now with mega pert, there are two crazy powerful rain sweepers. There were other rain sweepers that were deadly as well. It's easier to ban the ability than all the sweepers. And rain is still a viable play style!
  25. ceal

    ceal

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    Since everyone else is focused on Houndoom's departure, I'd like to give my initial thoughts on the suspect at hand, Weavile. Be aware that these are just my first thoughts about Weavile before getting to build some teams and play matches with him, so feel free to disagree with my sentiment.

    I'll start with going over Weavile's basic strengths and weaknesses. Weavile is blessed with high speed and attack, as well as a killer offensive typing and a movepool that, while somewhat barren, still gives him enough to work with in order to become a dangerous offensive threat. He also comes with Pursuit, giving him some offensive utility and making him a great teammate for pokemon who appreciate Weavile's prey being removed. On the flip side, the same typing that makes him an offensive powerhouse also makes him a defensive liability, and, coupled with his laughable bulk, forces him to either be brought in via volt-turn, doubles, or sacks. Furthermore, said defensive typing saddles Weavile with a weakness to rocks, which, coupled with life orb recoil (Weavile's most commonly run item), makes him easy to wear down, and forces you to run hazard control if you wish to use Weavile to his fullest extent, restricting teambuilding.

    On to his place in the meta, it feels like Weavile is being thrust into a meta that isn't as kind to him as it once was. While he has few viable switch-ins, those that do exist (Buzzwole, Cobalion, Scizor, etc.) are already extremely good and are common sights in UU, meaning that most teams will usually, in some fashion, be prepared for Weavile as is. Furthermore, while Weavile is fast, he's nowhere near the speed demon he used to be, being humbled by Sceptile, Beedrill, and Aero, all of which possess a means to ohko Weavile from full and take advantage of him being choice-locked into koff or icicle crash, if banded (As for LO, Bee and Aero can eat a Ice Shard in a pinch, taking around 60-70% each and killing back, though this will definitely be a niche situation and not a very appealing one for Weavile's opponent). Lastly, priority is another obstacle for Weavile, since he is weak to the two most common forms of it (Bullet Punch and Mach Punch), allowing the opponent to keep him in check even if they have nothing to outspeed him.

    All of this is not to say Weavile won't be good. He comes with a stellar offensive typing, great offensive utility through pursuit trapping, and is overall a force to be reckoned with. However, I feel like the counterplay available, including defensive and offensive checks, keep Weavile in check, and, as such, make him a balanced pokemon in UU. I'll make a more in-depth post on Weavile once I have the time to really play with him.
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