np: SUMO UU Stage 2 - Countdown

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I think the biggest problem with banning Mega Houndoom instead of drought would be why can't they do the same thing with drizzle. If Mega Houndoom is banned instead of drought then why can't Mega Swampert+Kingdra+Kabutops/Ludicolo/Omastar be banned and drizzle unbanned? Drizzle wouldn't be broken anymore just like how Drought isn't now.

It's similar to one of the reasons Smogon doesn't do complex bans. "If pokemon A is banned with ability 1 but not ability 2 then why can't we do the same thing for this pokemon." This exact thing would happen with banning Mega Houndoom instead of drought.
 

Cresselia92

formerly Darklatias92
I think the biggest problem with banning Mega Houndoom instead of drought would be why can't they do the same thing with drizzle. If Mega Houndoom is banned instead of drought then why can't Mega Swampert+Kingdra+Kabutops/Ludicolo/Omastar be banned and drizzle unbanned? Drizzle wouldn't be broken anymore just like how Drought isn't now.
There is a very good difference between removing one Pokémon and removing a slew of Pokémon and/or a whole playstyle. The latter should happen only if assolutely necessary, as seen with the whole Baton Pass thing. Removing Scolipede probably wouldn't have been enough, as Mew would have taken its place as a stat donor. Then what, ban Mew as well? Then what after banning Mew, ban the other potential donor as well? And for what, only to preserve a playstyle that is already uncompetitive per se? Hence why Baton Pass was eliminated, since the playstyle as a whole was problematic.

Same thing happened with Kingdra and Drizzle. While it is true that it was Kingdra who pushed the playstyle over the edge, Rain had already plenty of viable Pokémon at its disposal, which had the benefit of both gaining more power and speed under the Rain, meaning that all its abusers could hit hard and fast. As such, since there are so many abusers of that playstyle, Drizzle received the boot.

The same cannot be said about Drought, though, because all its abusers are quite limited in what they can do and require tons of support. Chlorophyll abusers become much more vulnerable to opposing Fire attacks, for example, while Fire-types tend to lack speed, power, bulk or a mix of both. It doesn't help the fact that Fire Pokémon are also weak to Stealth Rock, which is a huge issue for Sun teams, who need to rely mainly on Torkoal to spin the rocks away, and who is weak to SR itself and can be worn down quite easily.

Mega Houndoom, however, had both firepower (no pun intended!) and great Speed, turning it into a valuable asset for Sun teams, which was capable to put its work against all playstyles, ranging from stall to hyper offense. It is the perfect sun abuser, which is why it was deemed more banworthy than other Pokémon and Drought itself. Venusaur, its Chlorophyll fellows and Fire-types are much easier to handle and rely way more on matchups, meaning that there isn't a real need to remove a whole playstyle just because one Pokémon singlehandedly makes it broken.

If there were more busted sun abusers like Mega Houndoom it would be another story, but as of now Sun isn't an unhealthy playstyle (yet). In case some more reliable sun abuser surfaced then we could reconsider the Mega Houndoom ban and look more closely at Drought, but for now it was better to eliminate that lone element that caused the surge of sun teams, and that element is Mega Houndoom.
 
I have 2 problems with this: UU banned Drizzle when Kingdra dropped (I admit I did not play at this time, but what I've been told it wasn't overbearing without Kingdra), and the ban argument implies Drought stays due to seniority. M-Doom drops --> Sun is now broken --> ban Doom. What if M-Doom was here since S/M's inception, Drought dropped to UU, and then made Houndoom broken? It's clear no other partners would make M-Houndoom banworthy, so in this case Drought looks like it would be banned. That's not fair at all.
Drizzle was already inching towards a ban before Kingdra with the plethora of viable abusers. Even without Kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo threatened to make the playstyle uncompetitive, and the list of mons that could potentially abuse rain with the right team support certainly doesn't end there. When you compare the list of viable rain abusers in UU (esp. after Kingdra drop) it simply overshadows the list of viable sun abusers. Venusaur is the next best sun abuser after Mega Houndoom, and while it can definitely function well in UU it requires vastly more team support than any of the top 3 rain abusers (Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo) would if Drizzle were unbanned. (And it's worth noting you can actually run all 3 top rain abusers without stacking a single weakness with each other) After Venusaur, no other Chlorophyll user is viable in UU. You can run one of the few Fire-type wallbreakers to abuse the sun, but they will be stacking weaknesses with your sun setter, which typically will offer little to your team outside of Drought support. And these Fire-type wallbreakers are already used frequently outside of sun and therefore, prepared for by any successful team.

When you have one Pokemon that can abuse an otherwise manageable playstyle like Mega Houndoom, it would make more sense to ban the Pokemon rather than the ability. The same doesn't hold true for, say, Kingdra. If Drizzle were unbanned, and Kingdra were banned, I don't think it'd take long for that decision to be reversed. Not to mention, banning Drought (which isn't broken) in UU would also keep it from being used in RU (where it also isn't broken) -- and is that really "fair" ? (Not that I agree that that's a justifiable reason to make tiering decisions, just seems to be coming up a lot in this thread) If you can identify a single Pokemon that poses a problem, it would make sense to start there. I don't think we'll have to discuss the competitiveness of Drought in UU again with Houndoom gone because it will simply cease to be an overwhelming playstyle.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I mentioned Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo as top 3 rain abusers since Mega Swampert had not been released when Drizzle was legal. Of course it deserves recognition as well, for it too would ravage UU if it had Drizzle support. Even Omastar, Beartic and Poliwrath could be threatening in rain, while with sun playstyle you are pretty much set on running Torkoal + Venusaur + one of Entei/Darmanitan/Infernape/Arcanine/Rotom-H/etc.
 
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Drizzle was already inching towards a ban before Kingdra with the plethora of viable abusers. Even without Kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo threatened to make the playstyle uncompetitive, and the list of mons that could potentially abuse rain with the right team support certainly doesn't end there. When you compare the list of viable rain abusers in UU (esp. after Kingdra drop) it simply overshadows the list of viable sun abusers. Venusaur is the next best sun abuser after Mega Houndoom, and while it can definitely function well in UU it requires vastly more team support than any of the top 3 rain abusers (Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo) would if Drizzle were unbanned. (And it's worth noting you can actually run all 3 top rain abusers without stacking a single weakness with each other) After Venusaur, no other Chlorophyll user is viable in UU. You can run one of the few Fire-type wallbreakers to abuse the sun, but they will be stacking weaknesses with your sun setter, which typically will offer little to your team outside of Drought support. And these Fire-type wallbreakers are already used frequently outside of sun and therefore, prepared for by any successful team.

When you have one Pokemon that can abuse an otherwise manageable playstyle like Mega Houndoom, it would make more sense to ban the Pokemon rather than the ability. The same doesn't hold true for, say, Kingdra. If Drizzle were unbanned, and Kingdra were banned, I don't think it'd take long for that decision to be reversed. Not to mention, banning Drought (which isn't broken) in UU would also keep it from being used in RU (where it also isn't broken) -- and is that really "fair" ? (Not that I agree that that's a justifiable reason to make tiering decisions, just seems to be coming up a lot in this thread) If you can identify a single Pokemon that poses a problem, it would make sense to start there. I don't think we'll have to discuss the competitiveness of Drought in UU again with Houndoom gone because it will simply cease to be an overwhelming playstyle.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I mentioned Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo as top 3 rain abusers since Mega Swampert had not been released when Drizzle was legal. Of course it deserves recognition as well, for it too would ravage UU if it had Drizzle support. Even Omastar, Beartic and Poliwrath could be threatening in rain, while with sun playstyle you are pretty much set on running Torkoal + Venusaur + one of Entei/Darmanitan/Infernape/Arcanine/Rotom-H/etc.

I agree with everything, except banning drought in UU would have no bearing on RU. But otherwise good points, especially how rain is much stronger defensively.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I agree with everything, except banning drought in UU would have no bearing on RU. But otherwise good points, especially how rain is much stronger defensively.
Banning Drought from UU would indeed prevent lower tiers (including NU) from using Drought, like how UU banning Drizzle and Baton Pass prevented RU and NU from using those before their respective council even managed to do anything about it.
 
i guess ill throw in my two cents on sun

personally i believe that houndoom is the problem and not ninetales itself, because houndoom actually functions well outside of sun due to nasty plot allowing it to deal massive amounts of damage without a sun boost and the fact that it has the stats, type and movepool to function without sun support. also lets be real are any of the chlorophyll mons broken in sun? not that i know of. tl;dr ban houndoom (mega ofc)
 
I've been reading up on your comments regarding our decision to ban Houndoom-Mega instead of Drought and I see it's turning some heads. As one of the members of council that voted to ban Houndoom-Mega instead of Drought, I'll happily explain why I voted the way I did.


re: Consistency Why not ban Drought as well, considering we also banned Drizzle.

While both situations involve abilities that summon a weather effect and both situations involve 'mons that take advantage of said effects, they're not the same. Not to me, anyway. For starters, I feel Drizzle is the stronger ability, because the abusers of Drizzle (primarily Swift Swim 'mons, but others as well) can potentially boost both their Speed stat and the power of their STAB-attacks. There are no Chlorophyll Fire-types that can do the same in combination with Drought. Furthermore, Drizzle wasn't voted on due to a single abuser of its weather. Kingdra was obviously extremely threatening, but so were other Swift Swim users, like Kabutops and Ludicolo for example. Drizzle based teams was a dominant force throughout its reign in UU, while Drought based teams were not (at all). This is also why I voted 'Ban' when we first tested Drizzle, which was before Kingdra dropped. Before Houndoom-Mega became a thing in UU, where were the Drought based teams then? Where is the evidence that Drought was ever a real (and potentially broken) issue? Where were the Drought based teams in UUPL? To me it's Houndoom-Mega that's the broken force in UU, not Drought. Houndoom-Mega is supported by an otherwise functional and (crucially) non-broken archetype, which in turn propels it to broken levels.

re: Baton Pass comparison We didn't ban Celebi in ORAS instead of Baton Pass, so why ban Houndoom-Mega instead of Drought now?

Well, that's because while we acknowledged Celebi played a big part in the Baton Pass test, at the same we thought Celebi wasn't the sole reason Baton Pass was such an issue in UU. As of right now the majority of the UU council does believe Houndoom-Mega is the sole reason Drought is currently being brought up. The same questions about Drought before Houndoom-Mega's introduction from the previous point apply here, btw. The comparison between Baton Pass and Drought isn't a fair one, because Drought has been a non-problem throughout SM UU, while Baton Pass was quite frankly cancerous with and without Celebi. That's my personal opinion, anyway.


Please note that, if anything, we as a council look back on our previously made decisions as we continue to do our best to make this metagame as good as it can be (something that the Terrakion in your teambuilder can confirm). If Drought based teams as a whole end up being too good for the UU metagame, even without Houndoom-Mega, then we will look into that. As of right now, however, they aren't and they haven't been.

If any of the other council members that voted 'Ban' on Houndoom-Mega have anything to add, then I urge you to do so. Transparency and openness is the way to go about this, in my opinion. I hope this explanation makes some type of sense to those of you that are confused by our decision. Other than that I'm very curious to see your findings and thoughts regarding Weavile, considering the metagame absolutely transformed since it was last UU. c:
 
I've been reading up on your comments regarding our decision to ban Houndoom-Mega instead of Drought and I see it's turning some heads. As one of the members of council that voted to ban Houndoom-Mega instead of Drought, I'll happily explain why I voted the way I did.


re: Consistency Why not ban Drought as well, considering we also banned Drizzle.

While both situations involve abilities that summon a weather effect and both situations involve 'mons that take advantage of said effects, they're not the same. Not to me, anyway. For starters, I feel Drizzle is the stronger ability, because the abusers of Drizzle (primarily Swift Swim 'mons, but others as well) can potentially boost both their Speed stat and the power of their STAB-attacks. There are no Chlorophyll Fire-types that can do the same in combination with Drought. Furthermore, Drizzle wasn't voted on due to a single abuser of its weather. Kingdra was obviously extremely threatening, but so were other Swift Swim users, like Kabutops and Ludicolo for example. Drizzle based teams was a dominant force throughout its reign in UU, while Drought based teams were not (at all). This is also why I voted 'Ban' when we first tested Drizzle, which was before Kingdra dropped. Before Houndoom-Mega became a thing in UU, where were the Drought based teams then? Where is the evidence that Drought was ever a real (and potentially broken) issue? Where were the Drought based teams in UUPL? To me it's Houndoom-Mega that's the broken force in UU, not Drought. Houndoom-Mega is supported by an otherwise functional and (crucially) non-broken archetype, which in turn propels it to broken levels.

re: Baton Pass comparison We didn't ban Celebi in ORAS instead of Baton Pass, so why ban Houndoom-Mega instead of Drought now?

Well, that's because while we acknowledged Celebi played a big part in the Baton Pass test, at the same we thought Celebi wasn't the sole reason Baton Pass was such an issue in UU. As of right now the majority of the UU council does believe Houndoom-Mega is the sole reason Drought is currently being brought up. The same questions about Drought before Houndoom-Mega's introduction from the previous point apply here, btw. The comparison between Baton Pass and Drought isn't a fair one, because Drought has been a non-problem throughout SM UU, while Baton Pass was quite frankly cancerous with and without Celebi. That's my personal opinion, anyway.


Please note that, if anything, we as a council look back on our previously made decisions as we continue to do our best to make this metagame as good as it can be (something that the Terrakion in your teambuilder can confirm). If Drought based teams as a whole end up being too good for the UU metagame, even without Houndoom-Mega, then we will look into that. As of right now, however, they aren't and they haven't been.

If any of the other council members that voted 'Ban' on Houndoom-Mega have anything to add, then I urge you to do so. Transparency and openness is the way to go about this, in my opinion. I hope this explanation makes some type of sense to those of you that are confused by our decision. Other than that I'm very curious to see your findings and thoughts regarding Weavile, considering the metagame absolutely transformed since it was last UU. c:
Well, that was enough to convince me. I realize that you can't really mandate this amongst the council, but having council members explain their votes and what influenced them to lean in a particular direction is extremely informative and interesting. Thanks for your perspective on Houndoom!

As far as Weavile... it will be interesting to see where it shapes up. UU is probably the tier that has gone through the most changes all gen, and it's been a wild ride. I think it might be more manageable thanks to the presence of Buzzwole and other bulkier, durable mons, while providing a speedy offensive threat to things like Latias.
 


Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 132 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Stealth Rock
- Heal Bell

While still pretty mediocre as it was last gen, I've noticed Diancie's viability has risen considerably given its favorable matchup against some of the new drops, particularly Mega Pidgeot and Bulk Up Buzzwole. It also matches up well against some big threats that have been around for a while like Hydreigon, Talonflame, Venomoth, and most importantly, Flame Orb Guts Conkeldurr, as it's one of the only Pokemon in the tier that can switch in to Facade and eat a Drain Punch right after from full. I've been using it the same way as it was last gen, as a nice role compression mon that can set Stealth Rock, provide cleric support, and check random Pokemon by way of its unique defensive typing and natural bulk. The above EVs may look like overkill but they guarantee the OHKO on 0/0 bulk Conkeldurr factoring in rocks or a turn of burn damage, and have a good chance to 2HKO Mega Pidgeot, which may try to stall Diamond Storm PP with Roost. Aside from the SpA investment, this spread just maximizes physical bulk. It definitely has some glaring weaknesses such as being worn down fairly easily, not resisting Fighting as a Fairy, the prevalence of Scizor, etc. but these can be mostly mitigated with proper team support. Not perfect, but it offers balance teams some nice role compression which is essential in a meta with such a ridiculous amount of threats running around. (checks Weavile too!!!)
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
that is completely false, there is no transitivity in bans anymore
See, while I'm aware that Hikari said some time ago that tiers leaders decide what to ban from their respective metas, the teambuilder for Gen 7 NU/RU rejects the team because "Drizzle is banned from Gen 7 UU" and "Baton Pass was banned from Gen 7 OU"; aka NU/RU didn't decide these bans (also yes, I am aware that UU did decide to ban Baton Pass for itself and it wasn't mentioned in the teambuilder as such, but my point stands that RU/NU didn't even get access to Drizzle/BP before they were banned from their tiers). Meanwhile, I've not heard any word about the tier leaders or the council actively banning either Drizzle or Baton Pass; even in RU Stage 0, the very first ban of the tier (Suicune) had to be formally announced before it was implemented, whereas neither Drizzle nor Baton Pass was even mentioned but it was already implemented the moment the tier came into existence, so I can only assume the tier leader(s) did agree to ban transitivity, and this is also assuming they had to announce it to Zarel/The Immortal or whoever is in charge of managing tier banlists instead of the ban transitivity being applied automatically.
 
So far I am enjoying using Weavile, although I am on the fence of whether it is broken or not. Leaning towards not broken right now but still undecided, particularly as I only have used the Choice Band set. My thoughts on Weavile in general:
  • The speed tier is amazing for a Choice Band user and with your STAB moves you can stop a lot of otherwise fast and strong Pokemon from spamming their STAB moves (Pidgeot and Latias are two of the biggest targets)
  • The power level seems quite good, but not broken, you can kill basically everything weak to your STAB moves
  • The most broken factor of Weavile to me so far is the amount of utility it puts in - it can trap, revenge and even sweep with just its STAB moves alone
  • Unfortunately, there are a lot of very good checks and counters like Buzzwole and Scizor, and despite providing a lot of utility, the limits of Choice Band stop Weavile from crossing into clearly broken territory
  • And while its mediocre special bulk and very poor physical bulk rarely stops it from performing its roles, Weavile still has a very hard time providing defensive synergy except for switching into one medium strong special move per game assuming you can keep SR off
Here is a good balance team that I am using with Weavile now: http://pokepast.es/e37df97c6edee11e

It is quite weak to Beedrill sadly but otherwise covers all the threats well and abuses Weavile pretty heavily. Probably the Beedrill weakness is very thematic of the fact I am using a slow balance team with a FWG core and Sylveon - a lot of these Pokemon are naturally Beedrill bait.

Here are my replays with the team:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-593957033

I face my old stall team. Frankly, I know my team's weaknesses very well, and weaknesses of stall in general as a stall player, so I usually overcompensate on my nonstall teams. I definitely have the match up and I abuse it but Chandelure does the work, not Weavile. When Weavile sweeps, it's pretty obvious it's already over.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-593969188

My opponent has a couple very hard Weavile checks although I get a lucky 6-5 start. Despite that, I think a slight match up disadvantage (Primarina and Nidoking are very strong against balance) and not very energetic play by me ends up losing the match. It was disappointing that Ice Shard couldn't break Buzzwole's Substitute, otherwise I think I could have had a clear win.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-593978033

Weavile does the most work in this game, acting as a revenge killer and sweeper of sorts. Granted my opponent isn't using the most intuitive (or viable probably) team, with several Ice weak targets Weavile has a chance to wreck some havoc. Mamoswine would put in even more work with more power and the ability to switch moves, but Weavile obviously has at least one big advantage over Mamoswine which is speed, which comes into play in many other games.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594030126

This time Weavile does not get such a lucky start but I am fortunately able to maneuver more easily in this rematch against my opponent's balance breakers. Still, I don't really think it's fair to say Weavile isn't broken based off this replay, even though it put in fairly little work, it did have several hard checks and a subpar match up in general.

Just for fun, I would say Weavile would be A / A+ rank now in terms of viability.

And on a less fun note, I just want to say I read and consider all the posts here. So no council cynicism is needed please, or at least rotating council cynicism. And to the person who posted that it can't be required for all council members to post, well actually in the tiering guideline thread it says all council members must post so yeah...And finally, please rest assured I do not and I feel confident in saying that other council members do not look up your PS rating before taking posts seriously or not, we evaluate content of the post and match it with our experiences.
 
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The CB set for Weavile does appear to be the best option for this Pokemon, and will probably be the most popular Weavile set by far. A Life Orb attacker also seems interesting, but with residual damage from Stealth Rock and Life Orb Recoil, Weavile won't be lasting very long.

So far, my experience with Weavile has been a bit underwhelming. Weavile's extremely poor typing and paper defenses mean that you will never be able to switch him in, except after a slow U-Turn or after a faint. The Stealth Rock weakness is also quite limiting and annoying, as it means you are required to maintain constant hazard control. As the number of fast threats in the game has increased, as well as Scizor / Mach Punch users being fairly common, Weavile really doesn't have a lot of breathing room. Furthermore, new checks such as Buzzwole are capable of walling Weavile completely. Honestly, at the moment, I feel even an A Rank would be a bit generous.
 
One set that a lot off people are sleeping is SD.SD let vile break a lot off his checks like buzz or bulky scizor if there aren't rocks
Set:

Weavile @ Icium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
Calcs:
Swampert:(life orb sets and Z-Ice wins)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 381-448 (95 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 300-355 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 166-196 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Def M-pert still wins (except high rolls in Z-ice)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert-Mega: 333-393 (83 - 98%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert-Mega: 231-273 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Bulky Scizor (Only LO sets win and only if there aren't rocks in the field)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 313-370 (91.2 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 241-285 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All other scizor sets OHKO weavile with bullet punch but can't switch in
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 151-178 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 196-231 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Bulky Buzzwole (LO sets lose and Z-Ice wins with rocks)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 372-438 (91.6 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 257-304 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Defensive Buzzwole(if it's healthy wins both sets)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 195-230 (46.6 - 55%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Weavile Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 282-333 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Alomola (LO sets wins if no burn z-ice have to risk more)
+4 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 485-571 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 373-439 (77.5 - 91.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Suicune(if it roar takes a lot of damage but you lost the boosts, against z-ice cune always win)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Suicune: 265-313 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Suicune: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
Banning Mega Houndoom for me came as a complete surprise to me. The tier definitely has ban worthy things in it, with Buzzwole and Mega Pidgeot virtually destroying the tier, and also has very good megas like Sceptile and of course the all mighty Aerodactyl. I've also seen Mega Blastoise used, just more rarely. The one mega I never saw used was Mega Houndoom. Even with sun, it has checks such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Aerodactyl, all of which outspeed and have some way to damage it. Then of course you have things like Blissey which can completely wall it. But the thing that makes me sad seeing Mega Houndoom go to OU isn't that I don't think it's powerful. It's that there's no way it can survive viably in OU when it is outclasses as a fire type by things like Heatran, Megazard X, and Volcarona, and is walled by things like TTar(especially in sand), Chansey, Tapu Fini, and Toxapex, and is also checked by things like Dugtrio, Scarf Keldeo, and Excadrill in sand. Houndoom didn't seem busted to me in UU and seems like it won't ever be used in OU, meaning this awesome Pokemon will probably never see usage. I think Houndoom needs to go back to UU and Weavile needs to go back to OU, where they've always belonged.
 
Banning Mega Houndoom for me came as a complete surprise to me. The tier definitely has ban worthy things in it, with Buzzwole and Mega Pidgeot virtually destroying the tier, and also has very good megas like Sceptile and of course the all mighty Aerodactyl. I've also seen Mega Blastoise used, just more rarely. The one mega I never saw used was Mega Houndoom. Even with sun, it has checks such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Aerodactyl, all of which outspeed and have some way to damage it. Then of course you have things like Blissey which can completely wall it. But the thing that makes me sad seeing Mega Houndoom go to OU isn't that I don't think it's powerful. It's that there's no way it can survive viably in OU when it is outclasses as a fire type by things like Heatran, Megazard X, and Volcarona, and is walled by things like TTar(especially in sand), Chansey, Tapu Fini, and Toxapex, and is also checked by things like Dugtrio, Scarf Keldeo, and Excadrill in sand. Houndoom didn't seem busted to me in UU and seems like it won't ever be used in OU, meaning this awesome Pokemon will probably never see usage. I think Houndoom needs to go back to UU and Weavile needs to go back to OU, where they've always belonged.
Here are my problems with this post:
1. Blissey does not wall Houndoom lol. +2 Houndoom in sun has a 50% chance to ohko for fuck sake. How does Blissey wall this thing? Even if you've never it faced before, a single look at the damage calculator shows that Houndoom obliterates Blissey. Also Blissey only really fits on really fat teams because of how much momentum it drains.
2. You do realize that Houndoom can actually beat offensive teams with Flame Charge, right? Pidgeot gets blown back by Fire Blast regardless of Stealth Rock or not, and after Stealth Rock Aerodactyl has a high chance of just dropping if sun is up. Nice checks, they're so good at checking that all Houndoom needs to do to beat them is grab a Flame Charge boost to beat them, not to mention that it has to be after a sack, because again if rocks and sun are up, neither of which are that hard, Houndoom can just blow them away if they try to switch in at all. Like the only way they can switch in is of Houndoom goes for nasty plot, which isn't usually necessary against teams that are more offensive.
3. Who cares if it's bad in OU? That is completely irrelevant. Why would we keep a broken element just because it won't be good in OU? What matters is its performance in UU, OU is completely irrelevant.
4. If you say you have never seen it, and judging by how you say Blissey walls it I'm assuming you never used it, then how can you judge if a Pokémon is broken at all? I'm sorry if I come across as a dick, but if you haven't used a Pokémon or at least seen it in action being used by at least decent players, then you have no idea how the thing performs

In the future if you want to prove a point, replays from upper ladder, damage calculations, and opinions formed from experience, not theorymon, are the ways you should get your point across, as these will help you make a more effective argument in this thread. It's fine if you think Houndoom isn't broken, but using more evidence will help you prove your argument.
 
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Aalbaniaa

We're all the king of our life
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Banning Mega Houndoom for me came as a complete surprise to me. The tier definitely has ban worthy things in it, with Buzzwole and Mega Pidgeot virtually destroying the tier, and also has very good megas like Sceptile and of course the all mighty Aerodactyl. I've also seen Mega Blastoise used, just more rarely. The one mega I never saw used was Mega Houndoom. Even with sun, it has checks such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Pidgeot, and Mega Aerodactyl, all of which outspeed and have some way to damage it. Then of course you have things like Blissey which can completely wall it. But the thing that makes me sad seeing Mega Houndoom go to OU isn't that I don't think it's powerful. It's that there's no way it can survive viably in OU when it is outclasses as a fire type by things like Heatran, Megazard X, and Volcarona, and is walled by things like TTar(especially in sand), Chansey, Tapu Fini, and Toxapex, and is also checked by things like Dugtrio, Scarf Keldeo, and Excadrill in sand. Houndoom didn't seem busted to me in UU and seems like it won't ever be used in OU, meaning this awesome Pokemon will probably never see usage. I think Houndoom needs to go back to UU and Weavile needs to go back to OU, where they've always belonged.
While i can see why you think M-Houndoom is not this broken, I just want to tell you that your post contain some mistakes.

Firstly i want tell you that you should learn the definiition of a check because without sun M-Pidgeot is not even a check to M-Houndoom because he don't win the 1v1 after switch-ins: 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 229-270 (74.5 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

And under sun he can't even come because he is completely destroyed by fire blast and got OHKO by Dark Pulse after sr damage:
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot-Mega in Sun: 249-294 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot-Mega in Sun: 513-604 (167.1 - 196.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I want add that even M-Aerodactyl does not appreciate switch-ins while the sun is up:
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega in Sun: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega in Sun: 222-261 (73.7 - 86.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Blissey no longer wall it under sun and it's not an overstatement :
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 328-387 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 328-387 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And this is WITHOUT a NP boost (while i don't know if Houndoom run this move bcz i don't often play UU)

M-Houndoom is outclass by many mons in OU, I agree with that, but when you say that it Zard-X outclass him when they didn't have the same role this is pretty ridiculous. You should've say Zard-Y but w/e. I just want to add that Tapu-Fini does not wall it and Toxapex only wall it when the sun is not up.
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini in Sun: 170-201 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini in Sun: 248-294 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

And again Excadrill, Dugtrio and Keldeo are not really check but more revenge killers

Finally i want say if the UU council decided to ban Houndoomite instead of Drought there is a reason that might be the lack of real threats that can take advantage of Sun in UU.
 

TSR

you can't break me down!
is a Tiering Contributor
Don't quite understand why Toxapex, Zard Y, and Excadrill have to be brought up at all in a UU thread, buuuuut I suppose I understand all the disappointment with doom being banned in place of Drought. I understand the sentiment behind the Doom / Drought issue and comparing it to the Drizzle ban. As much as I disagree with it myself, problem was that Drizzle was arguably unhealthy/broken before we had Kingdra drop with stuff like Torn-T, Keldeo, and Ludicolo/Kabutops becoming legitimate threats under rain, while Chlorophyll sweepers like Venusaur and in conjunction Sun teams were niche at best in beta, and now that Houndoom is banned. So in that case it would seem like a better idea to nerf all of rain in one go by banning Drizzle, while it was more apparent that Houndoom was the unhealthy component of Sun teams rather than Chlorophyll or Drought itself. Not necessarily an idea I agree with 100%, but what's done is done. Either way, if the Houndoom ban is somehow proven horribly wrong and flawed somewhere along the line, there's plenty of breathing room to make a new decision if stuff changes.



With that out of the way, I wanna use the bulk of this post to talk about Weavile. It hasn't been around for too long, nor have I laddered a ton with it (yet), but I have got a fair bit of building and games in with it around, so I think I'm safe to drop a few impressions it gives me. The meta itself has shifted a ton since beta, and with such, a lot of what made Weavile so unbearable then is no longer around. Weavile's not gonna be auto-trapping Latias for Keldeo, it doesn't bone staple beta threats like Tornadus, Serperior, and Thundurus, and on top of all that Scizor is more popular than ever, we gained an excellent check to it in Buzzwole that finds its way onto a LOT of teams, and its shitty defensive typing and weakness to rocks don't grant it a lot of good opportunity to actually get in and start firing off attacks. Such high Attack and Speed with an awesome offensive typing might seem a little too much but in reality it has its own set of checks and I've been unable to find any (practical) situation so far where it just hammers through a team with minimal effort. Just like any fast anti-offense mon we've encountered, it has its own set of conditions that need to be fulfilled in any given game if you really want it to end up cleaning. It's offensive capability on paper seems a little ridiculous but I've simply found it to be a little overhyped. Certainly not a bad Pokemon by any means, a quite good one in my opinion, but it's just not shredding through well-built teams by just clicking attacks. I've found myself naturally adding Weavile countermeasures to any good team I ended up building, since Buzzwole and Scizor are quite easy to find a slot for most of the time, as well as general offensive pressure from strong neutral hits that can keep Weavile from coming in for free too often. As for sets it can run, LO has been the best option I've found, as the Choice Band damage is impressive but much easier to play around since it can't switch between its STABs/coverage freely. SD has seemed extremely underwhelming since it gets very few chances to actually safely boost and even then it gets revenged by Scizor/Conk as well as Mega Swampert, Steelix, Klefki, Buzzwole etc being able to tank +2 hits. Certainly potent on paper but probably the standard high risk, high reward set, as well as the one that needs the most conditions fulfilled to work. Again, not decidedly bad by any means, but Swords Dance is likely the least potent use of it 9/10 times. I am willing to admit that having a backup offensive check to Pidgeot and Sceptile are certainly strong points for Weavile, as well as having access to strong STAB priority; just a few typical traits a Pokemon can have that I find welcome on just about any team.

On a final note, there have certainly been a few mons that have gotten better with the recent shifts. Some obvious ones like Togekiss, Starmie, Nidoking, Hydreigon, and even Gliscor (still second worst UU Ground-type imo) pop up a lot now and everyone is pretty familiar with what they can do. There is some stuff i believe to be flying under the radar at the moment, so here it is. They're obviously not top-tier but I do think they're deserving of some recognition.



Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Stone Edge

With Bisharp gone, Mienshao's a legit Fighting-type again since tanking +2 Sucker Punch is no longer a requirement. Keldeo gone also removes half of its competition for a Choice Scarf Fighting-type as well (Infernape still works - for real though, try random Z-moves on it, they're awesome). Togekiss rising in popularity is kind of a pain for Shao, but a lot of current teams focus their Fighting resists on beating Buzzwole, meaning that the much higher base Speed, raw power of Reckless High Jump Kick, and even U-turn and coverage from Knock Off can make it somewhat problematic to some offenses with some decent prediction. Stone Edge is a clean 2HKO on 252 HP Togekiss, or Poison Jab can do the job with Stealth Rock up. If some of Mienshao's better checks like Gliscor and Jellicent are present, it baits them in pretty easily and can U-turn to some strong breakers that pair well with it such as Mamoswine and Xurkitree. Choice Band is still probably an OKish option but seems to me like a slightly more offensive Buzzwole with less coverage and defensive capability, so I've stayed away from it for now.




Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roar
- Morning Sun

Before I start, this is 100% theorymoning (is that how you spell it? lol) and I don't recommend you go out and spam Arcanine on ladder any more than it already is. I was gonna nom Arc for D rank before the new drops happened but now I think it does have some place in the meta (not the tier though, let it drop to RU ffs). I still don't think this thing is very good but with the new drops Hippowdon usage is at an all time low meaning that in your source of recovery won't be painfully debilitated every other game. Not a bad Buzzwole check either since even 252+ Earthquake can very rarely 2HKO without rocks after the Intimidate, and the super high speed investment lets you outspeed Buzzwole and recover/wisp/attack it. Even will make for a decent-ish Weavile check if it does end up staying. Flamethrower is the move of choice to hit Bulk Up Buzzwole harder and avoid recoil damage, helping you actually check Buzz and not wearing yourself down. It still checks Buzzwole with a lot less Speed and more Defense, but the speed is nice to surprise Mega Swampert or really fast Buzzwole with a quick Will-o-Wisp. The speed could be bumped up a few more points to do the same to Mamoswine, but I just made this on the fly for Buzzwole (Wisping Pert and Mamo are both desperation measures and wouldn't recommend either as an initial line of play anyway). Anyway, think fire dog #2 isn't utterly awful anymore and perhaps deserving of some more experimentation.

(all are assuming rocks aren't up since Arcanine sucks at checking literally anything with rocks on the field)
-1 252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Arcanine: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Buzzwole All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Arcanine: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Arcanine: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Arcanine: 94-110 (24.5 - 28.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO

-1 252 Atk Life Orb burned Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Arcanine: 149-177 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk burned Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Arcanine: 127-151 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 
2. You do realize that Houndoom can actually beat offensive teams with Flame Charge, right? Pidgeot gets blown back by Fire Blast regardless of Stealth Rock or not, and after Stealth Rock Aerodactyl has a high chance of just dropping if sun is up. Nice checks, they're so good at checking that all Houndoom needs to do to beat them is grab a Flame Charge boost to beat them, not to mention that it has to be after a sack, because again if rocks and sun are up, neither of which are that hard, Houndoom can just blow them away if they try to switch in at all. Like the only way they can switch in is of Houndoom goes for nasty plot, which isn't usually necessary against teams that are more offensive.
Here are my problems with this part of the post (see what I did there) I don't know what the guy meant when writing it, but he obviously said check, and I won't argue that Mega Pidgeot is a check, as that obviously isn't the case, but I will argue for Mega Aerodactyl. Now the Smogon definition for check goes as follows:

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." (http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters)

Now I will admit that Mega Aerodactyl won't get free switches in often as in the Sun, Mega Houndoom 2HKOes or OHKOes generally all neutral hits and some resists outside of the rare and elusive Specially Defensive Blissey, but IF Mega Aerodactyl gets a free switch in, say on a Nasty Plot like you said, it will win 1v1 barring a Stone Edge miss, which I believe isn't factored into the definition of check because it's hax.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom-Mega: 368-434 (126.4 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

My second issue with your argument here is your mention of Flame Charge, which in my admittedly limited experience with Mega Houndoom (which is a byproduct of its stint in UU being short af like stuff such as the list of good drake songs and healthcare acts proposed by the Republican Party) I have never seen. Nor do I think it would be viable as there are much better ways to use that fourth slot (Assuming NP and STABs) such as Sludge Bomb to hit whatever does resist your STABs, and for Prima outside of Sun, Taunt, to give the middle finger to slower teams even more, Solar Beam which destroys prominent UU water types such a short Quagsire, Swampert, and Primarina inside the sun, and lastly Overheat, which inside of the Sun can be a last resort nuke regardless of whether you're under Sun as if it's neutral and not named Blissey, can seriously dent switchins if you're sacking due to the mad combo of a monstrous 140 Special Attack and a 130 Base Power STAB move.

In conclusion, while I do get the general idea behind your post, I feel this point in particular has a couple of fatal flaws that seriously undermine what you're saying. I hope I don't come off as a dick, as I am just trying to alert you to some holes in your reasoning.

Cheers love the calvary's here !
 
Here are my problems with this part of the post (see what I did there) I don't know what the guy meant when writing it, but he obviously said check, and I won't argue that Mega Pidgeot is a check, as that obviously isn't the case, but I will argue for Mega Aerodactyl. Now the Smogon definition for check goes as follows:

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." (http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters)

Now I will admit that Mega Aerodactyl won't get free switches in often as in the Sun, Mega Houndoom 2HKOes or OHKOes generally all neutral hits and some resists outside of the rare and elusive Specially Defensive Blissey, but IF Mega Aerodactyl gets a free switch in, say on a Nasty Plot like you said, it will win 1v1 barring a Stone Edge miss, which I believe isn't factored into the definition of check because it's hax.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom-Mega: 368-434 (126.4 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

My second issue with your argument here is your mention of Flame Charge, which in my admittedly limited experience with Mega Houndoom (which is a byproduct of its stint in UU being short af like stuff such as the list of good drake songs and healthcare acts proposed by the Republican Party) I have never seen. Nor do I think it would be viable as there are much better ways to use that fourth slot (Assuming NP and STABs) such as Sludge Bomb to hit whatever does resist your STABs, and for Prima outside of Sun, Taunt, to give the middle finger to slower teams even more, Solar Beam which destroys prominent UU water types such a short Quagsire, Swampert, and Primarina inside the sun, and lastly Overheat, which inside of the Sun can be a last resort nuke regardless of whether you're under Sun as if it's neutral and not named Blissey, can seriously dent switchins if you're sacking due to the mad combo of a monstrous 140 Special Attack and a 130 Base Power STAB move.

In conclusion, while I do get the general idea behind your post, I feel this point in particular has a couple of fatal flaws that seriously undermine what you're saying. I hope I don't come off as a dick, as I am just trying to alert you to some holes in your reasoning.

Cheers love the calvary's here !
The Aerodactyl part is poor wording on my part, Aerodactyl is absolutely a check to Houndoom, I was trying to say that it is a pretty shaky check considering that if Stealth Rock is up, which is pretty common, it has difficulty switching in as it risks getting killed, so it usually has to revenge kill, which implies that Houndoom already killed something. Not to mention that since it resists pursuit, Houndoom can pretty easily switch out if it needs to. Again, shitty wording on my part.

Flame Charge isn't viable? I mean the waters you mentioned get killed by +2 Fire Blast after some chip, which isn't that hard to do if you pair Houndoom with other things those waters need to check. Not to mention that Houndoom was paired with Venusaur on sun, which turns the likes of Quagsire, Swampert, and Primarina locked into Moonblast or Hydro Pump into set up liabilities as Venusaur can easily set up on them and proceed to blow holes into your team. Taunt is viable, sure, but Houndoom already dicks on bulky teams. Overheat is kind of overkill imo since you already do so much damage with Fire Blast, but I can see merit. Sludge Bomb only hits Primarina, that's it, and Houndoom pairs very well with Venusaur which switches into everything Primarina carries except Psychic, which turns Primarina into set up fodder for doom anyway. Flame Charge allowed you to punish teams that relied on scarfers or Aero to handle Houndoom, and served me pretty well against teams that relied on outspeeding doom.

I'll admit, my post was abrasive, turns out when you're pissed at something irl it translates online lol. I stand by my points, but I could have presented it in a better way.
 
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The Aerodactyl part is poor wording on my part, Aerodactyl is absolutely a check to Houndoom, I was trying to say that it is a pretty shaky check considering that if Stealth Rock is up, which is pretty common, it has difficulty switching in as it risks getting killed, so it usually has to revenge kill, which implies that Houndoom already killed something. Not to mention that since it resists pursuit, Houndoom can pretty easily switch out if it needs to. Again, shitty wording on my part.

Flame Charge isn't viable? I mean the waters you mentioned get killed by +2 Fire Blast after some chip, which isn't that hard to do if you pair Houndoom with other things those waters need to check. Not to mention that Houndoom was paired with Venusaur on sun, which turns the likes of Quagsire, Swampert, and Primarina locked into Moonblast or Hydro Pump into set up liabilities as Venusaur can easily set up on them and proceed to blow holes into your team. Taunt is viable, sure, but Houndoom already dicks on bulky teams. Overheat is kind of overkill imo since you already do so much damage with Fire Blast, but I can see merit. Sludge Bomb only hits Primarina, that's it, and Houndoom pairs very well with Venusaur which switches into everything Primarina carries except Psychic, which turns Primarina into set up fodder for doom anyway. Flame Charge allowed you to punish teams that relied on scarfers or Aero to handle Houndoom, and served me pretty well against teams that relied on outspeeding doom.

I'll admit, my post was abrasive, turns out when you're pissed at something irl it translates online lol. I stand by my points, but I could have presented it in a better way.
Poor wording on my part also, what I meant to say was I feel there are better options. Charge is def viable, but I like the utility of the other ones better. You can also use Sucker viably in theory also to beat offense but I haven't seen it in practice, although I see where you're coming from about Flame Charge
 
I'm going to skip the whole discussion about Houndoom and share my thoughts on the more interesting Weavile. For the record, I've played around 60 games on alts with different Weavile teams with varying success.





The sets I've been playing are Band, Icium SD and LO 4 attacks. First, SD is ass: Weavile’s bad defensive typing and terrible bulk make it very hard to set up, and sweeping even harder. Band Weavile is definitely a better set, but still has been rather underwhelming in my games: while it was the most appealing item at first, maximizing Weavile's immediate power with no recoil, it locking Weavile into a move is a huge drawback. Ice and Dark, while being good offensive types, are individually resisted by many Pokémon and are much easier to play around if you can’t switch from one stab to another (especially if using Ice Shard or Pursuit). So LO 4 attacks is the best Weavile set in my opinion, as it still gives Weavile a needed boost in power but also lets it switch moves and potentially lure switch-ins with coverage moves like Low Kick.


Moving on to Weavile’s viability in general, I haven’t found it to have any broken aspect in the current metagame. As a pursuiter, it gets big competition from Muk-A, which was often more useful than Weavile on my bulky teams thanks to its better typing, bulk, utility and reliability; but it differentiates himself from Muk by having a really useful speed tier that lets it easily revenge kill stuff, although it really wishes it had a bit more power to turn some 2HKOs into OHKOs. The worst things about Weavile, though, are that it is easily walled by various Pokémon depending on its coverage move (Cobalion and Sharpedo if no Low Kick, Primarina if lacking Poison Jab, Buzzwole unless running Aerial Ace) and easily stopped by faster Pokémon and common priority users (thinking about Scizor and Conkeldurr), making it very tricky to use sometimes, if not deadweight. Add to this a pitiful defensive typing and bulk, and you have a Pokémon far less threatening than some make it out to be.


Don’t get me wrong, Weavile’s still a good mon, and I don’t see it being ranked under A- on viability rankings, but it definitely doesn’t deserve to remain banned from UU any longer.
 
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