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np: SUMO UU Stage 2 - Countdown

Discussion in 'SM UnderUsed' started by Hikari, Jun 8, 2017.

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  1. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun formerly hilarious
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    I'm going to post on Xurkitree now and Buzzwole tomorrow morning after I test its SpDef Bulk Up set tonight. Will post on Latias then too but very heavily leaning no ban for Latias at the moment.

    I'm going to vote ban on Xurkitree because:
    • The stall match up is incredible, saying it is good is an understatement
    • On a related note, the power is too extreme and unlike anything UU has ever seen
    Regarding the argument that Xurkitree raises the skill barrier for stall and forces normal adaptations like normal offensive threats:
    • First the poster said it makes stall more diverse and then they say it kind of invalidates full stall and makes only semi-stall viable...this is a pretty clear contradiction
    • No amount of "skill" will let you wall a +3 Xurkitree - the only defensive switch ins are a few random AV Pokemon like AV Amoonguss and Steelix is OHKOd by +3 Grass Knot with a tiny amount of chip damage (easy because no recovery and it has to set up SR) or just a max roll
    • Its not normal that I have to run an Ice Dragon Pokemon with no utility moves to check - not counter because Dazzling Gleam and Hypnosis - one and only one threat
    • Even incredible stallbreakers like Haxorus and Crawdaunt have legitimate defensive counters (Forretress and Tangela/Chesnaught) - there is no such counter for Xurkitree. This is unprecedented.
    Regarding the idea "Why not just run Weavile / Mega Aero / Krookodile" (or a similar trapper a la Dugtrio in OU)
    • Pursuit is less reliable than Arena Trap, especially when you're dealing with a Pokemon that can easily OHKO you if the prediction is wrong
    • To be honest, I never thought that was a fair statement because it supposes that six walls is invalidated. I think thats unfair, if full six wall stall was viable before the drops (and it was) then why are you saying its acceptable to kill a playstyle in favor of keeping 1 Pokemon. Didn't we save drought just for the opposite reason?
    Regarding the argument that Xurkitree's offense match up is so poor, we should accept its good stall match up
    • Again, this understates how good Xurkitree is against stall. TG + Gknot/HP Ice/Z Tbolt Xurkitree has no defensive counters. Stall is literally a playstyle where you counter everything.
    • I play all styles on the ladder. Xurkitree has no defensive equivalent. I'll expand on this point below
    If this entire post has been TLDR, just ask yourself this one question: would you allow a Pokemon that walled 99-100% of all viable offensive threats to stay in the tier with the excuse that you could just Perish Trap / Mean Look Trap / Spirit Shackle Trap it and it had no utility moves against opposing stall?

    Xurkitree after one turn of set up invalidates 99-100% of viable walls in UU. To me this means Xurkitree is broken.
    Meru, toshimelonhead, Tony and 41 others like this.
  2. Sacri'

    Sacri' Itching for a fight
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    Won't bother giving my thoughts regarding Buzzwole and Xurkitree as I have already done so in these posts, I'm in favor of banning both.

    While I still use Latias a lot and still find it extremely good, I don't feel like it's overpowered, not anymore at least. New additions to the tier such as Weavile, Muk and Steelix give it a rough time and threats such as Krookodile, Scizor, Empoleon and Aerodactyl are still as popular as ever. That being said, it still is a metagame defining pokemon and as such any team should be prepared so as to not lose to it. Howeever, all of the things that beat Latias are viable pokemons that are relatively easy to fit on teams which is why I don't find Latias unhealthy in the current metagame. I believe Latias should remain UU.
    Cheryl., eht, lightninging and 17 others like this.
  3. Hogg

    Hogg I will be king, and you, you will be queen.
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    My own thoughts on the slate...

    Buzzwole

    Taken in a vacuum, neither Buzzwole's defensive capabilities nor its wallbreaking potential are broken. I find it less offensively threatening than other wallbreakers like Conkeldurr or Primarina, and its defensive abilities are impressive but not independently unhealthy. Where Buzzwole becomes problematic, then, is the intersection between the two. Buzzwole's incredible physical defenses (putting things like Hippowdon and physically defensive Celebi to shame), reliable recovery and useful typing means it switches in and forces out a huge chunk of the tier. If Buzzwole was as passive as Hippowdon, this wouldn't be a problem, but there are only a handful of reliable defensive answers to Buzzwole, and most of them rely on guessing the correct set. Ironically, the most reliable Buzzwole answer tends to be Buzzwole itself, which also means that games often devolve to really silly Buzzwole v. Buzzwole situations reminiscent of last gen's Crocune v. Crocune wars. All in all, I just find Buzzwole to be too much for UU.

    Latias
    Latias is probably my most-used 'mon even in this meta, but I find it difficult to stress just how bad this last tier shift was for it. While it's still useful defensively it lost its main niche (and setup bait) in Keldeo, and a whole host of new checks and counters dropped down. Beedrill checks non-Scarf sets all day long (and even has room for Pursuit now), Steelix switches in to the three most common CM + Z sets all day long, and even Pidgeot punishes Latias to an extent. I still think it is very good in this meta, especially its Scarf set (a Scarfer that outspeeds Pert in rain and can still mess with bulkier teams thanks to Trick is definitely a boon to most offensive teams), but I don't think it's broken or unhealthy at all right now.

    Xurkitree
    And finally, Xurkitree. Far from coming around on Xurk since the last vote, I'm actually more convinced than before that it is not an unhealthy presence on the current metagame. As scary as its Special Attack stat is, it is still weaker unboosted than Specs Raikou, without the advantage of Raikou's bulk or Speed. Tail Glow is incredibly unreliable unless you know your opponent is going to be bringing a passive team, and many stall teams have managed to adjust around the threat of TG Xurk. I definitely think that Xurkitree is good—Specs and Zap Plate in particular are great as powerful Volt Switchers that have the tools to punish most Electric immunities—but I find that in practice, it's way less threatening than it seems on paper.
    Mq, Cheryl., Manipulative and 25 others like this.
  4. Freeroamer

    Freeroamer The greatest story of them all.
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    I'm glad that the council are posting their opinions as much as I am in favour of the opinions presented thus far in this thread and do not have much to add to them. While I am also glad a vote is being held just before UU open, I have to question the logic of the timing of the vote. Why hold it literally the day before UU open and not a week before or some similar timeframe? Im glad potentially broken threats are being voted on before the biggest free for all tournament, but is the day before round 1 really the best time to announce results? These are obviously meta game defining threats, otherwise they wouldn't been voted on, and their absence or lack of will shape the metagame that is played so I don't really understand this.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    Romanticist, DrReuniclus and Notily like this.
  5. Heavyweapons Mann

    Heavyweapons Mann

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    My guess is that they needed time to establish whether it was worth voting on.
  6. Amane Misa

    Amane Misa

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    [​IMG]
    Buzzwole is definitely one of the most interesting topics in UU. It is the definition of a physical tanker, who also hits extremely hard. While its typing isn't the best offensively, it grants Buzzwole resistances to common offensive physical typings, mainly Ground, Dark and Fighting, allowing it to switch-in on top threats in UU such as Scizor, Mamoswine, Krookodile, Weavile, etc. and respond with a powerful attack on its own, a Substitute or even a Toxic.

    It suffer from the 4MMS, meaning it will always be walled by something. Scouting for its set is a pain by itself, though - as it can punch holes in your team with the right predictions.

    I once felt Buzzwole isn't unhealthy to the metagame but now, I can definitely see its bad influence on the metagame. It puts heavy pressure on teambuilding - with Pokémon such as Mamoswine and Scizor sacrificing an entire moveslot just to hit Buzzwole super effectively.

    This bug on steroids shouldn't stay.

    [​IMG]
    Before the drops, I really believed Latias doesn't have a place in UU, with its almost unlimited coverage, further boosted by Calm Mind and Z-power.

    Latias is one of my most used Pokémon, and I can truly say that it definitely healthy for UU.

    Not only UU received two more counters to it, it stops Pokémon such as Mega Swampert and Xurkitree from tearing teams apart.

    Let it stay.

    [​IMG]
    I really don't know whether Xurkitree is ban worthy or not. If Xurkitree didn't have Tail Glow, I would certainly support letting it stay UU, but Tail Glow just completely erases an entire playstyle, stall.

    Stall's attempts to adapt to Xurkitree include max SpD. + Careful Nature Mega Steelix (which dies after a tiny bit of prior damage), Mega-Aerodactyl, Substitute + Roost Kyurem, Choice Band Weavile and Choice Scarf Krookodile, which all aren't as reliable as stall wished them to be.

    However, Stall doesn't really mind non-Tail Glow Xurkitree, as Blissey permanently walls it. Not only that, against Offense, Xurkitree isn't good at all and you are better off having Raikou in its place at most cases.
    Mq, Gorechomp, Romanticist and 2 others like this.
  7. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun formerly hilarious
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    Buzzwole I'm voting ban on for basically everything everyone has already said. Here are some replays for your entertainment and edification (bolded is the scariest one):
    Latias I'm voting no ban because its so easy to fit checks and counters on a standard team without even trying. The Scarf set is great but still too weak to be broken and the CM sets are too slow.
    Darksafadao, Ernesto, YABO and 8 others like this.
  8. DrReuniclus

    DrReuniclus Smogon's full of bullies.
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    Not council or anything, but I really got your sentiments from the post and thought the same thing initially when they decided to suspect Weavile over other things. I'm not upset at the decision they made about Weavile, I just don't think it was the correct thing to do from a time aspect or tier related aspect. There are many other things as shown with the current suspects that I, along with some other people, thought would better suit testing the time they had before the tour. However, I completely understand why they did make that decision and waited awhile before retesting some of these threats. They had just recently tested 2 of these mons, Xurkitree and Buzzwole, less than a month ago in relatively the same metagame, except now they have the addition of Weavile and loss of Mega-Swampert, which I don't think would change the voting much on these specific mons. It would just be in bad taste to vote on these mons again so soon after being initially tested when the metagame itself had changed so little in comparison. The other conclusion I came to is that their lives might've just come up. I mean, Hogg has a kid and was out of town or something for a week and I'm sure Hikari and the council have been busy with other things, so it wouldn't surprise me that some life events came up that made the Weavile test take 2 1/2 weeks forcing them to postpone this until later. Personal lives should come before pokemon, which is not even something that should really be questioned unless your life is this game at which point I suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror, scrape those dorito stains off your face and maybe get some therapy. Additionally, the reason I think they don't wait until after and just lock the current metagame in for open is because the metagame is just really bland right now. Building isn't that creative because of the current threats, while playing the same few top mons over and over again isn't really that fun either. I could be completely wrong on that one, but I'd rather take a chance on getting rid of these things and figuring some of the new metagame changes out than play what is currently available. I'm just saying this cause I thought the same thing you did at first and just wanted to say the conclusion of what I thought was their decision on the way things played out is all.

    Anyways, as for the suspects I think Buzzwole's going to get a sizable ban vote from what has already been said and there would be no changing that with valid points already being made, Latias will get a sizable no ban vote because it wasn't banned prior to the tier shifts and these shifts have been more detrimental to it than anything, and Xurkitree will be the major topic of discussion. A lot of offense players in general believe that Xurkitree isn't really that big of a problem and honestly vs most offense I don't see it as a problem, however, when you step into different playstyles, this is probably where it gets a little more questionable. Overall, balance is what I consider to be the weakest current playstyle with the large amount of drops from Mamoswine to Mega-Pidgeot and, while I didn't talk about it in my previous Weavile post as I didn't think I had enough experience with the playstyle and didn't want to overstep my boundaries, I really do believe its worth taking a look at how all playstyles are effected by a certain mon before making a decision and not just the playstyle you mostly use or have been using in a certain metagame. Xurkitree allows balance little breathing room in the form of choice specs and tail glow sets both of which pressure the playstyle immensely. Dealing with Xurkitree along with the majority of other threats such as Mamoswine, Mega Pidgeot, Weavile, Crawdaunt, etc. just feels like an extremely over the top problem for balance in its current state. I don't really feel like I would be the best person to defend balance, however I really do think it needs some sort of help in this metagame. I also agree with Sacri's previous post that it can pressure certain mons on offense enough with its variety of sets to warrant a check such as Latias, Hydreigon, etc. on most teams and, while I think the checks are relatively easy fits on a lot of teams, I believe being able to threaten bulky offense even with those checks while also causing major issues for balance and stall is enough to put Xurkitree over the edge even if it has little viability vs Hyper Offense. However, at the end of the day, the only poor way I see this vote turning out is keeping the metagame as is, as I think the current metagame just centralizes around a few threats, majorly buzzwole, with little to no room for building variety, so I do think some additional change would lead the metagame in the right direction.
    Lixx, wishes, Cheryl. and 17 others like this.
  9. Christo

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    Buzzwole:

    Pretty much everything has been said, Buzzwole is definitely too much for the UU tier. Having such a useful typing, impressive offensive capabilities, insane defensive capabilities, great setup, recovery, and coverage moves, and a surprisingly respectable speed stat make Buzzwole a clearly broken Pokémon. I will be voting ban.

    Xurkitree:

    Xurkitree only seems to be debateably broken due to its ability to break stall teams. It has a great special attack with access to to Tail Glow and decent coverage options, but it's speed is too underwhelming(doesn't outspeed Aero at + 1) along with its defensive capabilities. Against offense it can pose as a decent threat, scoring 2 kills at most, but nothing overly threatening. In theory stall gets completely dismantled if played properly(assuming tail glow 3 attacks) but I have noticed stall can definitely adapt and keep it at bay. I'm voting do not ban.

    Latias:

    As much as I love to use latias, I don't find it broken at all. It is very easy to find checks for it. Latias has a bunch of utility, and it is easily a top 3 Pokémon in the tier, but nothing more than that. I'm voting do not ban.
    G-Luke, Manipulative, eht and 8 others like this.
  10. YouthBerry

    YouthBerry formerly garlando

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    Preface: I've played and watched a ton of games of all playstyles and just wanted to share a couple thoughts, hopefully in time for the voting process.

    Buzzwole:
    Buzzwole combines incredible 107/139/53 defences with 139 attack, I don't think we've seen a Pokemon combine both elite defensive prowess with offensive firepower like this before in UU. That along with a good defensive typing that resists very common typings like ground, fighting, and dark, makes Buzzwole one of the premier threats in the tier as it can simply invalidate some of UU's premier offensive threats while being threatening itself. Even a 4x weakness to flying type attacks isn't enough to slow down Buzzwole as it can simply switch out (isn't weak to pursuit) or even deal with flying types itself with Stone Edge or Rockium Z. It also has access to both substitute and roost meaning it can protect itself from status and heal itself instantly giving it crazy longevity and makes it a true wall that requires little support and can simply frustrate opposing teams. It's offensive movepool is decent too with access to Stone Edge, Earthquake, Poison Jab, Leech Life, Lunge, Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, Focus Punch, Super Power, and Hammer Arm, which means it can pick and choose what it wants to hit offensively and leaves the opposing team guessing at what answer to Buzzwole is safe to switch in. Bulk Up is also a thing and just further enhances the prowess of this bug beast. Buzzwole has proven to be really annoying threat to deal with as the meta has developed and it has seen a ton of usage as the opportunity cost of using it is pretty much nothing. I feel it has become too centralizing in the tier and therefore unhealthy. I mean when people start to run HP flying Mamoswine (CBU and his bad sets :p) for Buzzwole...I think there is a problem. Also someone above mentioned Buzzwole actually being a pretty perfect answer to itself which is true, but I can say with certainty that Bulk Up Buzzwole vs Bulk Up Buzzwole is one of the most brutal 1v1's to play and watch :( I say Ban

    Xurkitree:
    Xurkitree combines the highest spA in the tier (173 :o) with pretty well perfect coverage (Bolt-beam + Grass Knot) making it a threat every time it's on the field and a Pokémon you need to play carefully around. Add in Tail Glow to reach +3 in one turn and the ability to run Electrium Z and it has no actual defensive switchins outside of ridiculous things like AV Amoongus. The fact that it has caused people to run more offensive teams and completely invalidates a playstyle to me shows that it is unhealthy. It can run other sets like Z-hypnosis (meh set), Zap Plate (good set which lets you hit very hard and switch moves), Choice Specs (Power is crazy but forces you to predict well), and Choice Scarf (speed tier isn't great for this set imo as it's still outsped by Mega Aero but it can catch opponents by surprise). To those that say it's fine because they run offensive teams that can deal with it easily I think are lacking perspective. What has made UU so great imo over the years is that it had the diversity of playstyles that other tiers didn't, particularly OU. All playstyles were viable and you could use a wide array of Pokémon, and Xurkitree imo really puts limits on what can viably be used with it's power and coverage and a speed tier that sits in the middle (outspeeding most defensive oriented Pokémon). Also, I've used Xurkitree on offensive builds with support including Aurora Veil and on another team Sticky Webs, which both further enhanced it's prowess helping it make it much tougher to revenge kill for offensive teams. I just feel like a Pokémon that has no defensive answers after 1 turn of set up isn't healthy. I say Ban

    Latias:
    It's been one of the most consistent and best Pokémon in the tier for a while but as has been stated above, the new drops (Mega Steelix, Weavile, Mega Beedrill, etc.) haven't helped it's viability recently. I think it should have been discussed earlier, but as we stand now, the meta has adapted around it and it's not at a point where you can say Latias is broken or unhealthy. The one hard part about Latias is that it's two best sets imo (Scarf and Z-move of choice) are impossible to differentiate at times as the damage output of Draco Meteor and Psyshock/Psychic is the same so you have to watch how the Latias is used to gain knowledge on it. This makes it potentially possible to bluff your way through a match. Overall, I think it's one of the very best mons in the tier but I say Do Not Ban
  11. Hikari

    Hikari
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    We got tier changes in June 8th. We had to wait a reasonable amount of time before starting with the noms and another day for council to vote (June 17th) and 3 more days for the Sun debacle (June 20th). Weavile suspect not being as clear cut as most suspects (despite the one sided final vote, some council members were discussing about the day+ after we started the vote), council members quitting half way through, both Hogg and I being unavailable at the same time for a few days in end of June / early July; Weavile was unbanned in July 5th. Discussing and deciding tiering related stuff (like if we should address anything before UU open, and other stuff I'll mention in a bit), doing the noms and then vote. A combination of factors delayed things a little bit, but even without them we would have 4~ days more to work with, which isn't that much of an improvement. Luckily, with almost 1k signups and the biggest tournament bracket without cash incentive in Smogon, round 1 will be longer than usual. (for reference, last OST had a 3 weeks round 1 and 50+ less signups)

    Council suspects after round 1 are more awkward for everyone and does nothing to address any of the potential issues, most council members focusing more on preparing for UU Open / Slam in general than on testing and discussing suspects, and likely increase of "bias" complaints. However, as awkward as mid-tournament suspects are, we cannot realistically put tiering on hold for 3+ months, but the current system isn't the most suitable to deal with that.

    I suppose this is a good time to announce we are planning to put an end to koko's system. It did what it was meant to do, which was create a decently stable tier in a "short" amount of time, but the cons it brings currently outweigh the pros. From now on we are going to start doing public suspects, because they are slower paced, lacks most the council-related issues, and slightly improves the to ladder; good for people looking to test slam teams on the ladder, even if it includes a Pokemon not allowed in the tournament itself. The council will be involved on discussions to decide suspects and help us deal with "blatantly broken" Pokemon drops, akin to Mega Gyarados in ORAS UU. They'll be required to ladder if they wish to vote, but different kind of reqs on both ladder and forums. We need a bit more time to discuss some of the details.
    Mq, Leru, KoldKappuccino and 30 others like this.
  12. Hogg

    Hogg I will be king, and you, you will be queen.
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    The votes are in!

    BUZZWOLE: Buzzwole has been banned by an 8-4 majority.

    LATIAS: Latias remains UU in a near-unanimous 11-1 vote.

    XURKITREE: In yet another tied 6-6 vote, Xurkitree remains UU.

    Voting results (open)

    [​IMG]


    As Hikari mentioned in the above post, UU will be moving to a public suspect system following this vote. Expect more details on that in the near future. Thanks to everyone who participated in this suspect, both on and off the council.

    Good luck to everyone participating in UU Open!

    Tagging The Immortal and Eyan to please implement Buzzwole's ban on PS!. Also tagging UU Open Host @Pearl.
    Mq, G-Luke, wishes and 46 others like this.
  13. EV Sceptile

    EV Sceptile

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    Glad to see Xurkitree stay, and Buzzwole go. TBH I wanted Latias to leave tho
  14. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    I'm very glad Latias is staying, literally no reason to ban it, but I'm glad it was a point of discussion. Very cool that Buzzwole is going, strong defensive threat, and very overwhelming to the tier. Xurkitree, I'm still on the fence about; I haven't seen it much or used it, so I can't really give an opinion on it but from what I understand it should've been banned. Also, sad to see the koko system go, but it's definitely for the better. Looking forward to participating in suspect tests in the future!
  15. Gorechomp

    Gorechomp

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    Really would have liked to have seen Xurk go, too. That thing is way too had to stop after a Tail Glow and don't get me started on that Z-Hypnosis set. With enough luck, it can sweep entire teams right off the bat. Oh well.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  16. bsu

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    glad buzzwole left but annoyed i have to build all new teams now since buzzwole was literally on every team LOL
  17. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    Z-Hypnosis is like the worst set. You basically have a 40% chance to only have 5 Pokemon because remember: The hypnosis can miss. Best set currently is Tail Glow 3 attacks. Thought I agree, it can be stressful going up against it. I'd suggest running scarfers like Hydreigon and Latias that can revenge kill if Xurkitree is for whatever reason scarf. If not, there are a plethora of other options you can use to revenge kill Xurkitree. For example, the aforementioned Hydreigon and Latias still work. Krookodile, Gliscor (since they're running Dazzling Gleam over HP Ice now), and Hippowdon are also great answers (as revenge killers). As for counters, your options are limited. Even the spdef bulky Blissey takes around 85% from a +6 Thunderbolt (Don't believe me? +6 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 561-660 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). So, we don't really have anything to switch into it.

    You could say every time Xurkitree switches in, it gets a kill. However, sometimes this isn't true. If the player using Xurkitree is inexperienced with the game, tier, or Pokemon, you may find them clicking Tail Glow as soon as they're in. This gives you the opportunity to switch into your check and either force them out, or collect your kill. But, this only works if the player is inexperienced, unfortunately.

    So, yes, arguably you could say that Xurk is unhealthy for the meta because it always has an opportunity to collect a kill if you play perfectly. However, on the other side, it's argued that Xurk is easily revenge killed, and very slow in a bit of a faster meta, with Pokemon like Infernape, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Swampert (in rain), Latias, Scarf Hydreion (most popular set), and many others. This is why I'm on the fence with this Pokemon. There are fair arguments on both sides of the spectrum, (no, not that spectrum), so it's very hard to form an opinion on this Pokemon, and it seems the community is half and half, demonstrated in this recent suspect.

    Just my thoughts on Xurk, as well as responding to a comment :3. Oh, and 200th post hype!!!
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
    Blitzamirin, eht, tenkai and 5 others like this.
  18. p2

    p2
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    As someone who isn't really involved with UU too much (I've picked it up for slam but not much else), but is there any particular reason Weavile was dropped and one of its best most splashable answers were banned from the tier right after? Weavile just seems like far too much for the tier with buzz gone, I'm looking at it in this perspective: Weavile is legal in a tier without Keldeo / Mega Sciz / Clef / Buzzwole / Skarm. It doesn't help that some of the best mons in UU are vulnerable to Ice Shard and nothing can consistently switch into Knock Offs bar like Klefki. It just seems far too easy to punish the entire tier between Crash/Knock/LK because it outspeeds all relevant fighting types, removes scarfs and it just straight up 2hkos them most of the time. I just don't like how offenses wincon vs Weav is either overload it with hazards before it can come in or to consistently keep stuff healthy so they don't get ruined by lo shard late game which is just far too unreasonable as far as offensively checking threats go.
  19. MasterAmpharos

    MasterAmpharos

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    40

    The thinking goes that because it's so frail and it's weak to rocks, it's hard to get it in. Also it's weak to the most common priority moves in the tier in Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, suffers a lot from recoil from LO and Choice Band sets aren't optimal since being locked into 40 BP moves leaves the door open for rkills + plus most teams run reasonable defensive checks.

    If you read the council posts about it that's pretty much what it sums up to. And about your point about fighting types being outsped, Coballion has a favorable matchup, Most Terrak and Ape either have Choice Scarf, or in the case of Ape, Mach punch, Conk runs Mach standardly. Bewear and Lucario aren't relevant anymore, (although they both beat 1v1). Hawlucha really is the only one that loses, but the only person who uses that thing seriously anymore is A Cake Wearing A Hat . And I wouldn't say it removes even most of the non fighting type ones either as they generally can force it out, unless really weakened and in ice shard range, and I guess they can't switch in, but Weavile isn't unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, And I think UU has reasonable counterplay against it.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
    tmacbalanced, mashonem and tenkai like this.
  20. Hikari

    Hikari
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
    UU Leader

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    To answer the first question: Weavile getting unbanned had almost nothing to do with Buzzwole being in the tier. Buzzwole dropping was one of the many reasons why we decided to retest Weavile, but we were already talking about the possibility of voting on Buzzwole again halfway through the suspect.

    Some of the best Weavile checks aren't in the tier, but there are way more options to deal with it than just Klefki. In terms of "offensive Pokemon" there is a limited amount of Pokemon that can switch into it: Mega Blastoise (if 0 bulk it struggles vs high rolls, but some defensive investment drastically helps with that), Primarina (avoids the 2HKO from anything but Poison Jab, which is really hard to fit in UU, and can run bulkier set to deal with Weavile and other threats), Conkeldurr (doesn't enjoy Knock Off, but can switch into anything), Scizor (mainly offensive sets are similar to Conk, but bulky SD sets can tank the initial Knock Off with certain spreads, Roost and then wall Weavile for the rest of the game). But if we start considering defensive Pokemon that can fit into certain offensive builds, akin to Clefable and Skarmory, you have Klefki, Alomomola, Swampert / non-RD Mega Swampert, some Suicune, Sylveon, Mega Steelix, Forretress (ass), and I'm probably missing some other stuff.

    Also "late game LO Shard" is extremely overrated. Mega Aerodactyl tanks it after SR damage, Hydreigon takes 65% max, Latias takes 70% max, Krookodile takes 69% max without Intimidate and 47% with, Mega Beedrill tanks after SR damage despite having 0 physical bulk, Talonflame also tanks after SR, Mienshao takes 53%. It basically only KOs Zygarde (which at worst gives Weavile another LO boosted attack after SR because of Extreme Speed) and Mega Sceptile (if you haven't mega evolved, you can risk the shitty 50-50 and rolls to try to KO with Leaf Storm). When it doesn't hit for SE damage / faces a Pokemon with x4 SR weakness or 0 bulk, the calcs are much more underwhelming: Terrakion take 32.5%, Conkeldurr 25%, Mega Sharpedo and Infernape 22%~, Entei 15%, Scizor 17%, Bullet Punch Metagross 13%. Keeping things healthy "so they don't get ruined" by Ice Shard really isn't a problem.

    I'm not going to say Weavile isn't a major threat to offense or that Knock Off isn't a stupid move, but fast offensive Pokemon threatening offense isn't unheard of in UU; that's pretty much the main reason why Mega Aerodactyl has been a metagame staple since ORAS. Honestly, right now I find Mega Sharpedo to be a bigger problem than Weavile when running offense (specially in the late game), because the latest tiering shift helped it a fuckload and losing Buzzwole automatically makes it much better.

    But this is coming from someone who voted no ban on Buzz, so

    [​IMG]
  21. WhiteQueen

    WhiteQueen ...
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    How is Buzzwole broken again? I have zero issue against it because Dusclops (it's a great Pokémon. Use it more) is a stable on my stall teams. Dusclops aside, Cofag, Jellicent, etc. also wall the bug cold. Buzzwole isn't all that powerful either; he can't even OHKO Togekiss (with no Def investment) with Ice Punch or Poison jab; Togekiss can then Roost and force it out. Any decent super-effective STABBED attack would end Buzzwole. Aerial Ace from Mega Aerodactyl typically OHKOs Buttwole despite its sky high HP and Def. Celebi, Crobat, Latias, Infernape, etc etc easily OHKO Buttwole as well. So many Pokémon in the tier outrun and easily OHKO it.

    Xurkitree on the other hand is a massive dick for stall players such as myself. Yeah I can play fast and furious too, but stall is fun and that thing totally invalidates my favorite playstyle as pokeisfun eloquently posted about.

    The wrong 'mon got banned.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  22. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    Buzzwole wasn't banned for being a stallbreaker, it wasn't banned for being an annoying Phys Def wall that just stopped lot of the offensive threats in the tier from doing anything at all, which is unhealthy. In theory, yes, you could run things like Mega Aerodactyl, Togekiss, and Latias (if Buzzwole is weakened), it's important to remember that there are other Pokémon that can't touch Buzzwole. Also remember the BuzzBliss combo walls everything that isn't named Hawlucha.

    Basically, while there are a few reliable answers to Buzzwole, that definitely doesn't mean it's not unhealthy or too powerful for the tier.

    I think for the future we need to take a different approach on deciding whether or not something is ban worthy. Often times, we look at a singular Pokémon against the tier. It's important to remember that the team with the mon in question has 5 others to go with it. We need to ask ourselves these questions:
    What are the Pokémon paired with this one?
    Do they make it hard to deal with?
    Do the Pokémon have reliable answers, including the one being tested?
    If so, what are they, and how viable are they?

    These are just some of the questions, I'm at my summer camp now and out of time! I'm excited to see how the meta will develop in the future!
    Eric Jiang234 and Reviloja753 like this.
  23. WhiteQueen

    WhiteQueen ...
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    No offense, but your team must be really bad to get walled by the Buzzwole and Blissey combo. Perhaps put a bit more thought into the team building. I fail to see how Buzzwole is more of an issue than Xurkitree. Granted I've only played UU in the past week, so there's a possibility I might be missing something when it comes to Buzzwole's brokenness... I don't see how something so pathetically slow and can get easily OHKO'ed by over two dozen viable Pokémon in the tier and walled by a handful of other can be considered broken.
    Sun, wishes, Tony and 11 others like this.
  24. ceal

    ceal formerly CTC is a lord.

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    While no official reason has been given for the decisions the council reached, most members posted their opinions in detail regarding the slate, which I'd definitely recommend checking out. For Buzzwole, I think Hogg's post puts it well: a pokemon with just his colossal bulk or just his offensive presence wouldn't be an issue, but the combination of the two is what makes it unhealthy. Buzzwole's massive defensive presence largely invalidates many of the physical attackers of the tier, forcing them to run shitty lure sets like HP Flying Mamoswine or SSSS Cobalion in order to deal with it, sets that leave the users worse off versus the rest of the tier. Offensively, it's considerably versatile, as its wide coverage basically allows it to pick and choose what counters it, aside from Ghost types, of which that are viable and can consistently switch in on Buzzwole there are few, and they're usually pressured easily by the number of viable dark types in the tier (especially with Weavile). Xurkitree, on the other hand, is a bit more complicated. It's a major menace to defensive teams, but even they have begun to adapt as best they can, running dragons like Latias and Kyurem to deal with him. Hell, even pursuit trappers like Maero and Weavile could be used to outspeed and either trap it or kill it outright (though last pokemon I remember forcing Weavile to be run on stall wasn't exactly the definition of fair and balanced). Still, even if you think such adaptations are evidence that Xurkitree is busted rather than balanced, it's important to note that the council was still split down the middle when it came to voting on it. This means that while Xurkitree may have avoided banishment again, he's still in hot water as far as council opinion goes, and will likely be a controversial topic in the weeks to come. Now with public suspects coming up, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say that Xurkitree could be our first suspect. Neither would it be to say Buzzwole could. We have plenty of time to decide on whether the decisions made here were the right ones, and we as a community can have a direct say in it now and decide for ourselves the future of this tier. So until then, I'd say sit back, relax, and enjoy the game best you can. Give the council some credit too: they may not be perfect, but they do their best, and have created for us a mostly stable tier to enjoy. They've done damn good work.
  25. Heavyweapons Mann

    Heavyweapons Mann

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    CTC is a lord. A Buzzwole retest? But it was just banned. Unless something similar to Weavile happens and the tier has changed a lot, I'm not too sure if a retest is a good idea.
    The Elder Dragon likes this.
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