np: SM UU Stage 3 - Now Or Never

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#1

Firstly, for the ones who aren't aware, we got some tier changes recently. Mega Banette, Mega Aggron, Mega Abomasnow, and Mega Camerupt dropped are now UU, but I doubt they'll have a major impact in the tier. Manaphy also dropped, but it was quickbanned shortly after. Both Pelipper and Mega Swampert went back to OU due to the raise in popularity of Rain Offense, the former was irrelevant in UU due to the Drizzle ban, but the latter was one of the most important treats in the tier.

Quite a few people have expressed concern with moving straight to a Manaphy suspect while other pressing issues are still waiting to be addressed in the tier. After reading several responses both on this thread and on PS!, the council has decided to hold off on the Manaphy suspect for the time being. However, Manaphy will receive a suspect at some point in the future.

UU is suspecting Xurkitree. This Pokémon has been extremely controversial since it was introduced to the tier, mainly because of its unmatched raw power, severe lack of switch-ins and its ability to break thought even the sturdiest walls after setting up with Tail Glow. Xurkitree does have mediocre Speed and bulk, which makes it relatively easy to revenge kill and allow a good chunk of Pokémon to check it, however those drawbacks become less of an issue when Xurkitree is run in Aurora Veil offense. The council voted twice on Xurkitree already, but it narrowly avoided the ban both times with two 6-6 ties.

This is a Xurkitree suspect, so please focus on that Pokémon and its effect on the metagame, and don't post things such as "why not suspect x". We can only do one suspect at a time and we are planning on addressing other troublesome Pokémon and strategies, such as the aforementioned Aurora Veil offense, but this process is done step by step.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. In addition, there will be a game limit of 90 games. It will last for two weeks. Xurkitree will not be allowed on the suspect ladder.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula:

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)

The Immortal please setup the suspect ladder without Xurk.

 
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#2
Alright for one, this Pokemon needs to go and I'll say why. UU doesn't have many ground immunities, and while we have Gliscor, Xurk always runs HP Ice. Also, Energy Ball hits Hippo lol. This Pokemon virtually just can't be switched into if it's set up, being able to 2HKO Blissey at +4: +6 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 561-660 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Also, some of our best Sp.Def Pokemon are Water types, being Empoleon and Mantine (even though Mantine is RU, it's so good in UU, at least in my opinion).

Tail Glow isn't the only set, you can have z-terrain which gives +1 speed making Scarf Latias and Blissey the only real counters, which is really stupid.

Point being, this Pokemon needs to go because it almost has no switch ins, can easily set up, and has the most outrageous spdef I've ever seen.

(PS, this post is really stupid I know, just getting some thoughts down before I post something more structured in the future.)
 
#3
Ya, we all knew this was coming eventually. Xurk destroys Stall and Bulky Offense and has no counters. I mean one tail glow from Xurk and it beats Blissy. Because of this, Xurk is the best wall-breaker in the tier and sometimes being too good at its job. Good choice to suspect test this monster.

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 349-412 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Zap Plate +3 252 SpA Zap Plate Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 420-495 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
#6
Finnaly, Xurkitree is on the line.
Tbh I guess everyone know what I think about this Pokemon. It's unhealthy since it arrived in the tier, it forces UU player to bring just too much things to take care of it and can virtually 6-0 Stall Team and beat everything which is slower than it. Because of it, people need to play fast gliscor, Scarf Krook, Roost Tias etc.. Furthermore it's clearly more versatile that we would have thought of it : Specs / Shuca / Zap Plate / E-Belt / Z-Electric Terrain + TG / Z-Hypnosis + TG or just TG + 3 attacks are all very deadly and may cost you the game if you didn't scout well the set of Xurkitree.
 
#7
Oh yeah that reminds me Moutemoute, stall might become an issue if Xurkitree is banned, which is one of the reasons why I think Xurk shouldn't be banned (I'm still proban don't hate). It will take a lot more work to beat stall, and Pokemon like Alomola will become a huge problem. You may have Weavile to knock it off, and have Raikou to Calm Mind up, but the issue there is Mega Steelix which beats both of those Pokemon. Without Xurkitree, stall will become a huge problem. Keep this in mind when casting your vote.
 
#8
I agree that Xurkitree beat on his own Stall team but tbh that's a massive problem if a Pokemon can take care alone of a whole archetype (remember Conkeldurr). Plus, there is some good Pokemon to take care of Stall like Gliscor, SD Heracross with Flame Orb, DD or SD Haxorus (this one is meh I agree). Even strong Sweeper like Mamoswine or Sharpedo-Mega w/ Ice Fang can take care of Stall with Hazards Support (just a few layers of spikes). Latias CM is pretty good too (DM + Psychock or Z-Surf), same case for VinCune or RoarCune with Spikes.
 
#9
Lol what? Stall becoming a huge issue because one mon gets suspected/banned is the biggest leap I've ever seen, and I've seen people do some pretty stupid stuff. Alomomola dies to just about any SE STAB, Steelix is still under some immense pressure from fighting types which are some of the best mons in the tier, and Infernape can 2HKO 90% of stall with it's life orb mixed set. Offense will still be dominant, and stall was still not all that good even before Xurkitree, so why would itturn into some huge issue now of all times?
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#10
It really doesn't matter whether stall becomes a huge issue or not, and this line of reasoning is really detracting from the thread's purpose. The base principle of tiering is that we only focus on the pokemon at hand, and don't worry about what might happen after it's banned if it's banned. It is completely irrelevant whether stall becomes broken without Xurkitree in the metagame, the sole focus is whether Xurkitree itself is broken. If anything becomes broken as a result of Xurkitree being banned, it will be addressed after it's been banned, not before.
 
#11
I normally restrain myself from posting in threads like that but i feel like this time is different. I have heard about how broken Xurkitree is for a while now and the arguments to support that opinion are shaky at best. First of all, let's get something out of the way now. if your team doesn't have anything for Xurkitree, it isn't Xurkitree's fault, it is your fault. Having said that, i personally am a huge supporter of the idea that Xurkitree is not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker. A pokemon with mediocre bulk, speed of base 83 that can only boost to +1 where it still gets outsped and destroyed by every viable scarfer and eq from mega aero isn't sweeping material in my eyes. Not to mention its ability to get up a tail glow and become threatening as a sweeper is based on a 60% accurate move(and people complain about hurricane and focus blast LOL). Tg+3 attack is the way to go imo since it doesn't deprive the mon of useful coverage plus it helps it do its main work, which is wallbreaking, more efficiently.Having said that, there are both checks and flat out counters to Xurkitree that are perfectly viable in the meta right now.

Counters:
  • Latias: Pretty much the premiere Xurkitree counter because of its ability to be utilized on pretty much every playstyle. Latias is able to outspeed Xurk at neutral or switch into it and 2hko it comfortably with psyshock. BUT, what happens when i face weavile+Xurkitree? My counter gets trapped and i lose. So Xurkitree is broken.No, that is argument against weavile, not Xurkitree.
  • Kyurem: Ok i will admit that Kyurem isn't the most viable mon rn but it definitely also isn't a pokemon that will hinder your team, since it can be a decent breaker with specs and a good pp stall mon with its sub+roost set.
  • Mega Abomasnow: Recent drop and a pokemon that can consistently be good in UU because it is a tier that was, is and forever will be destroyed by ice types. Mega Aboma easily switches into Xurkitree and forces it out unless it is an hp fire variant which is an absolute unset.
  • Amoonguss: With the appropriate spread it tanks +3 Hp Ice which is the best move Xurk can hit it with and clear smogs or spores it, making the z-speed boost set utterly useless and the TG+3 attack set sleep fodder.
Checks:
  • Gliscor/Mega Aerodactyl: Eq
  • Any Faster Scarfer That Can Hit Hard Enough: Xurkitree can do many things but taking a hit isn't one of them. Even if your scarfer cannot kill it, it either will force it out or turn it into priority/hazards fodder.
  • Pursuit: Thats mainly for the non-speed boosting stallbreaker variant, which turns into fodder after a well timed pursuit. You are afraid of the potential 50-50? Again thats an argument against yourself and not the pokemon. If your opponent needs Xurk to break through your wallcore, they are switching out. Read the situation and click the damn move.
How do i beat speed-boosting Xurkitree?

  1. Switch into your most useless pokemon as sleep fodder (The same procedure is followed with spore amoonguss)
  2. Go hard into either your scarfer or your priority mon, depending on which one is more valuable in the specific game
  3. Either bring Xurkitree into range from your scarf draco/cc/eq/flare blitz or in range of priority
  4. Dead Xurkitree
How do i beat TG+3 attack Xurkitree?
  1. Switch hard into your mon that either can kill it or take a hit and severely damage it
  2. Either u forced it out or crippled it to the point of being down to 30-40%
  3. Bring in your revenge killer and either force to switch out, take rocks and lose its boosts, or flat out kill it. Alternatively bring in your pursuit user and trap it.
  4. Dead Xurkitree
For the reasons stated above i believe Xurkitree is an extremely solid mon in the UU tier, with well defined strengths and weaknesses. It is a pokemon you have to outplay to beat, but that can be said for many other pokemon. What i am trying to say is that Xurkitree is a great pokemon that almost every team benefits from using, but its weaknesses make it have no business being called broken, let alone ban worthy.

Xurkitree: Do Not Ban
 
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#12
Counters:
  • Latias: Pretty much the premiere Xurkitree counter because of its ability to be utilized on pretty much every playstyle. Latias is able to outspeed Xurk at neutral or switch into it and 2hko it comfortably with psyshock. BUT, what happens when i face weavile+Xurkitree? My counter gets trapped and i lose. So Xurkitree is broken.No, that is argument against weavile, not Xurkitree.
  • Kyurem: Ok i will admit that Kyurem isn't the most viable mon rn but it definitely also isn't a pokemon that will hinder your team, since it can be a decent breaker with specs and a good pp stall mon with its sub+roost set.
  • Mega Abomasnow: Recent drop and a pokemon that can consistently be good in UU because it is a tier that was, is and forever will be destroyed by ice types. Mega Aboma easily switches into Xurkitree and forces it out unless it is an hp fire variant which is an absolute unset.
  • Amoonguss: With the appropriate spread it tanks +3 Hp Ice which is the best move Xurk can hit it with and clear smogs or spores it, making the z-speed boost set utterly useless and the TG+3 attack set sleep fodder.
Latias does not counter Xurkitree because Hypnosis sets shut her down for long enough for Xurkitree to go to town. Here's some examples:
Clearly you are overestimating Latias as a counter as it can easily just lose.

Additionally, it's unfair to ignore the fact that Latias can be Pursuit trapped; you can't just look at Pokemon in a total vacuum because in singles, as you know, it's 6-6. We have to consider the whole metagame and if Latias is much shakier for whatever reason, and it is, then we should consider that. This is especially important because one of the major points of wanting to ban Xurkitree is it's stall match up, stall has difficulty using Pursuit weak Pokeon and if it just gets destroyed by Pursuit + anything that it needs Latias for, we need to consider that.

Kyurem does not counter for the same reason, additionally while it is not Pursuit weak, it takes more damage from SR and cannot viably run a Scarf set so it is essentially always slower than +1 Xurkitree.

Mega Abomasnow - no replays but again, Hypnosis shuts it down. Additionally calcs show Abomasnow isn't a counter to other sets:
  • +3 252 SpA Xurkitree Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 424-499 (110.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 SpA Xurkitree Signal Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 194-230 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (obviously an OHKO after a boost)
  • +3 252 SpA Xurkitree Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 259-305 (67.6 - 79.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Lastly I would point out, max HP Abomasnow is already not the best set, it's best to have mixed sets because you need the power of both Blizzard AND Ice Shard in order to abuse one of the few positives of being Ice type

As for Amoonguss, if you want to use a terrible set:

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 338-398 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You still have a good chance to lose assuming you took no prior damage. And by the way, you only 3HKO...this is pretty obviously not a counter.

All in all, you definitely overstated each of these 4 Pokemon by calling them counters. They are hardly even checks.

Checks:
  • Gliscor/Mega Aerodactyl: Eq
  • Any Faster Scarfer That Can Hit Hard Enough: Xurkitree can do many things but taking a hit isn't one of them. Even if your scarfer cannot kill it, it either will force it out or turn it into priority/hazards fodder.
  • Pursuit: Thats mainly for the non-speed boosting stallbreaker variant, which turns into fodder after a well timed pursuit. You are afraid of the potential 50-50? Again thats an argument against yourself and not the pokemon. If your opponent needs Xurk to break through your wallcore, they are switching out. Read the situation and click the damn move
It is 100% viable to run Z move + HP Ice on Xurkitree, which obviously totally invalidates Gliscor as a check.

True Mega Aerodactyl can revenge kill Xurkitree, however:
  • Shuca berry is a viable option so that's not necessarily fool proof
  • Aurora Veil protects Xurkitree against the OHKO
  • Substitute sets have been used
  • The biggest point though is that of course Xurkitree can be revenge killed. Your "checks" section reads a lot more like "revenge killers" - if Xurkitree didn't have a decent amount of revenge killers, then it would be even more indefensible.
  • It's not as if there are random Pokemon that could normally not revenge kill Pokemon that work for Xurkitree - Mega Aero and Scarfers are the fastest things in the tier, a good portion of their niche is to revenge
Your bit on Pursuit is honestly quite cocky in my opinion. People cannot just "read the situation" on a 50/50 on demand. You yourself called it a 50/50 and then went on to imply it could be predicted?

I'll post my thoughts on actual points later, as opposed to just a rebuttal. Mainly though I think the stall matchup is too strong and Hypnosis makes Xurkitree too uncompetitive.
 
#13
I'd like to post my thoughts on Xurkitree before heading into the suspect test and seeing how the meta has adapted. Starting off, arguably, all of Xurkitree's sets are viable; for a long time people were bagging Hypnosis sets and stating that it was Xurkitree's worst set, but I'd also argue that if a Pokemon's worst set is able to sweep teams and even shut down opposing answers (through Hypnosis) then it's worthy of closer inspection.

Firstly, I'd like to address the versatility of Xurkitree in UU. Simply by choosing and changing one particular move and/or item, Xurkitree has the freedom to choose its checks and counters. Your opponent may be using Pokemon specifically to check Xurkitree only to have them foddered, for example: Shuca Berry Xurkitree is able to handle a significant portion of its offensive checks. It's also very difficult to tell which variant of Xurkitree you may be facing at team preview, in other words giving the Xurkitree user an advantage. Further to this, 173 base SpA is ridiculous, it has the capacity to 2HKO almost the entire meta with the correct coverage, and without the need to boost its SpA. Having, essentially, a Special Attack boosting variant of Moxie has made non-boosting sets a viable option, for example Substitute with Toxic Spikes support is able to manage stall builds, as well as threaten offence by pressuring the switch-in. Lastly, the notion that Xurkitree is "easy to RKO" what does this mean? People have been arguing this point in UU chat and it's starting to get on my nerves. The fact that you've settled on having something KO'd so you can "easily" RKO Xurkitree doesn't sound balanced to me.

Heading into suspect I have a strong idea in my mind that Xurkitree is ban worthy. I believe that it's not healthy for the meta, in terms of viable sets it can run Substitute, Shuca Berry, Z-Hypnosis, Zap Plate/Choice Specs to work its way around its limited checks and counters. Further to this, it can run Dazzling Gleam in order to deal greater than 50% to Dragon switch ins, such as Latias & Kyurem. Xurkitree is a very good Pokemon, maybe too good, and if played and supported correctly its quite easily able to achieve more than one KO each match.
 
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GunGunJ

El patrón del mal
is a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
#14

Xurkitree is broken and is also a good dancer. Uff, look those moves.
As I said in Conk's Suspect thread I don't talk too much because my english is not the best, however I want to talk about two things here: Why in my opinion Xurkitree is stupidly broken (and why its "checks" are not checks) and about Why I think that the UU metagame is Hell rn and will not be settled for a while.

First of all lets talk about our Wire. This thing is broken and is unhealthy for the metagame for a lot of reasons:

1-You don't know what are you facing: Xurkitree has a lot of sets and a coverage, that believe it or not is good. We have, TG + 3 Attacks, we have TG + Sub, we have TG + Shuca Berry, TG + Gigavoc Havoc. So, you are trying to stop something that you don't even know what is going to do.

2-Xurkitree is almost unstoppable: This mon is also uncompetitive and unhealthy because it forces us to do things that we don't want to do. For example, if you are using Aerodactyl, at least in my opinion, you have to use EQ, why? Because Xurkitree exists. If you don't use EQ, because you want to use Hone Claws Aqua SE Wing Attack, you will need a secondary Xurkitree answer and, maybe, a third one. Lets see this. I said that this mon is unstoppable, and a lot of people said "Xurkitree is not broken, you have Latias, Infernape, Hydreigon, Aerodactyl, Gliscor, etc" "It is easy to revenge kill". Ok, let me tell you something, only Aerodactyl (and Gliscor if you run like 72 EVs in Atk) is able to kill Xurkitree most of the time (I mean, it is not 100% sure, and as I said before it can be Shuca Berry and it will send you to hell with HP Ice / Thunderbolt). Now, lets see some fun calcs:

  • 252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xurkitree: 258-304 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xurkitree: 220-261 (71.6 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 274-324 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
  • 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xurkitree: 272-324 (88.5 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Note: we have to consider something too. Hydra and Gliscor have a chance to kill Xurki, ok that's good, but.... Xukitree has 445 SpA, you dont need that much, what if you put some EVs in HP because you want that Draco NEVER kills from full? So if you do that anything would kill Xukitree in one hit.

As you see most scarfers need prior damage to kill Xurkitree. I have seen people using Scarf Latias or Hydreigon, Scarf Infernape or Scarf Terrakion, and all of them have lost at least two mons againts this thing. Let me give you an example once again. You have a mon like Empoleon, Primarina, Swampert or even CB Scizor locked in a move that is not BP, and you have in the back one (or maybe two) of the mons mentioned before. So, Xurkitree comes-in in a double/free switch, several things can happen:

a) Xurkitree OHKOs your Pokémon with Tbolt and gets a boost.
b) Xurkitree tries to Z-Hypnosis your Pokémon and after that it Tail Glows or kills you with tbolt.
c) It misses its hypnosis or your opponent takes a risk and sub/TG in your face, so you can hit it and revenge kill it after.

Now, point #1: Xurkitree kills you and it is a 100%, you go into Hydreigon and you have a small chance to kill him so you have to U-turn and sack something else. You have lost two Pokémon againts Xurkitree, but the good thing is that it is not +1 Speed so if you have something like Z-Cobalion you don't have to lose two mons. Point #2: Xurkitree kills you and it is a 100%, you go into Hydreigon and you have a small chance to kill him so you have to U-turn and sack something else. You have lost two Pokémon againts Xurkitree and the only one that is able to revenge kill him is Hydreigon (remember this please). In Point #3 you only lose one Pokémon because your opponent took a risk so you hit Xurkitree and Draco can kill.

3-Xurkitree is not alone: I have news for you, Xurkitree has a crew, and they are angry, specially if you kill the guy with the Flow. So, i said before that Hydreigon (or you scarfer / revenge Killer) kills Xurkitree, but with what move? In Hydreigon case you have to use Draco or Dark Pulse (Xurkitree has to be very damaged); in Latias case you use Psyshock or Draco; in Infernape case you use EQ (not that common), CC or Flare Blitz. Ok frens, you killed Xurkitree, good for you, but I have bad news: its partners are coming. Hawlucha or Scizor comes out after you kill Xurkitree, they can freely setup on your mons and win the game. You can have Weavile for Hawlucha, and something for Scizor, but we are not talking about turn 10, we are talking about a battle where things have happened and you don't have your entire team. Xurkitree can also be alongside Ninetales, who mades this Wire even better, because nor of this Pokémon can revenge kill it.

4-Let me repeat. If a Pokémon forces you to do something, that Pokémon is broken: Why do i have to run 292 Speed Gliscor, why do I have to run EQ always in aerodactyl. I realized that Sub +Protect Suicune is better 292 Speed now only because Xurkitree exist and you dont want to give it a free boost. Why I cannot use stall without Krok being happy because there is no Xukitree. Why I have to use this scarfers to pivot then sack something and then kill Xukitree to lose againts a Xuki's teamate. I cannot believe that some people says that Xurkitree is not broken because you can revenge kill it and because it is slow. Based on that conk would be in UU (different Pokémon, I am just comparing the arguments). Every single Pokémon can be revenge killed, the thing is: are you paying attention at your team? Do you see that you are building something to stop a stupid Wire and you are not seeing it? Do you know that Xurkitree can kill two mons before he dies? Have you realized that? Common guys, this mon is not healthy for UU.

Now I am going to say why UU is going to be hell for at least six more months. We have Scizor, Weavile, Hawlucha, Pokémon like Primarina that hits like a truck but has a bad physical bulk, Hail, Latias that you don't know what is going to do, and a another Pokémon that are pretty good. All this mons are very good in UU and some of them will be broken soon (if they are not already), and in top of that gamefreak decided to give us a new game, that will bring new beast to UU. This tier is not settled, at least not in my opinion, I don't think is healthy at the moment and I think that this will be a pain for a while.

I dont want Xurkitree banned, I want Xurkitree in another universe without energy. Please, lets kick this Bad Boy out of UnderUsed.

Once again sorry about my venezuelan english. Have a good day ~.

You are 100% right, but in this case is different. As I said one check is not going to save you. What I meant is that you have to run several answers for one pokemon, at least for me that is not healthy. Adaam
 
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#15
Whenever I look at suspects, I look at the possible aftermath of the ban, and see if it's worth banning it or not. After looking at it, I see a very balanced metagame with great use of pokemon like Starmie, Alolamola, and other pokemon that Xurkitree normally checks. I think what really makes Xurk powerful is the diversity of its sets. It can be a bulky Veil attacker, a sleep user, a setup mon, and a scarfed mon. This makes Xurkitree stupidly unpredictable, which is even further nailed by its raw power. Counterplay exists, but Xurk's power and number of viable sets makes it very hard to counter for any pokemon.

Xurkitree:Ban
 
#16
I normally restrain myself from posting in threads like that but i feel like this time is different. I have heard about how broken Xurkitree is for a while now and the arguments to support that opinion are shaky at best. First of all, let's get something out of the way now. if your team doesn't have anything for Xurkitree, it isn't Xurkitree's fault, it is your fault. Having said that, i personally am a huge supporter of the idea that Xurkitree is not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker. A pokemon with mediocre bulk, speed of base 83 that can only boost to +1 where it still gets outsped and destroyed by every viable scarfer and eq from mega aero isn't sweeping material in my eyes. Not to mention its ability to get up a tail glow and become threatening as a sweeper is based on a 60% accurate move(and people complain about hurricane and focus blast LOL). Tg+3 attack is the way to go imo since it doesn't deprive the mon of useful coverage plus it helps it do its main work, which is wallbreaking, more efficiently.Having said that, there are both checks and flat out counters to Xurkitree that are perfectly viable in the meta right now.

Counters:
  • Latias: Pretty much the premiere Xurkitree counter because of its ability to be utilized on pretty much every playstyle. Latias is able to outspeed Xurk at neutral or switch into it and 2hko it comfortably with psyshock. BUT, what happens when i face weavile+Xurkitree? My counter gets trapped and i lose. So Xurkitree is broken.No, that is argument against weavile, not Xurkitree.
  • Kyurem: Ok i will admit that Kyurem isn't the most viable mon rn but it definitely also isn't a pokemon that will hinder your team, since it can be a decent breaker with specs and a good pp stall mon with its sub+roost set.
  • Mega Abomasnow: Recent drop and a pokemon that can consistently be good in UU because it is a tier that was, is and forever will be destroyed by ice types. Mega Aboma easily switches into Xurkitree and forces it out unless it is an hp fire variant which is an absolute unset.
  • Amoonguss: With the appropriate spread it tanks +3 Hp Ice which is the best move Xurk can hit it with and clear smogs or spores it, making the z-speed boost set utterly useless and the TG+3 attack set sleep fodder.
Checks:
  • Gliscor/Mega Aerodactyl: Eq
  • Any Faster Scarfer That Can Hit Hard Enough: Xurkitree can do many things but taking a hit isn't one of them. Even if your scarfer cannot kill it, it either will force it out or turn it into priority/hazards fodder.
  • Pursuit: Thats mainly for the non-speed boosting stallbreaker variant, which turns into fodder after a well timed pursuit. You are afraid of the potential 50-50? Again thats an argument against yourself and not the pokemon. If your opponent needs Xurk to break through your wallcore, they are switching out. Read the situation and click the damn move.
How do i beat speed-boosting Xurkitree?

  1. Switch into your most useless pokemon as sleep fodder (The same procedure is followed with spore amoonguss)
  2. Go hard into either your scarfer or your priority mon, depending on which one is more valuable in the specific game
  3. Either bring Xurkitree into range from your scarf draco/cc/eq/flare blitz or in range of priority
  4. Dead Xurkitree
How do i beat TG+3 attack Xurkitree?
  1. Switch hard into your mon that either can kill it or take a hit and severely damage it
  2. Either u forced it out or crippled it to the point of being down to 30-40%
  3. Bring in your revenge killer and either force to switch out, take rocks and lose its boosts, or flat out kill it. Alternatively bring in your pursuit user and trap it.
  4. Dead Xurkitree
For the reasons stated above i believe Xurkitree is an extremely solid mon in the UU tier, with well defined strengths and weaknesses. It is a pokemon you have to outplay to beat, but that can be said for many other pokemon. What i am trying to say is that Xurkitree is a great pokemon that almost every team benefits from using, but its weaknesses make it have no business being called broken, let alone ban worthy.

Xurkitree: Do Not Ban

I feel like pif laid out a lot of good reasons, but I'd like to touch on just two of your arguments: z-hypnosis being 60% making it balanced, and 50-50s making it balanced.

Being 60% accurate (meaning in your favour) for a sleep move that also boosts is extremely powerful. Don't forget OHKO moves are banned, despite having terrible accuracy. Switching into your most useless Pokemon may not be a good play either unless you've confirmed its set already.

The other part, is that causing 50-50s doesn't create skill, it's a guessing game, which is why they're called 50-50s. Pursuit will always create these, but if this is one of the counterplays a team must rely on to beat a threat, then it points to imbalance. Aegislash was banned at least partially for its tendencies to create game-deciding 50-50s
 
#17
I'm not gonna lie, the Z-Hypnosis set is pretty terrible. When your shot at sweeping is dependent on a 60% accuracy move, your GXE suffers heavily for it. But when the stars align and it does land, and you get your sweep going, even the worst player can occasionally cheese their way past some of the higher level players in the tier with little to no prediction involved. Do you really want to be pigeonholed into running a revenge killer (like scarf krook) to specifically deal with this threat?

Therefore, in this regard, it is quite unhealthy for the meta and needs to go.
 
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#18
I'm not sure where this idea that revenge killing = checking came from, but it's pretty fucking dumb. Mega Aero is not a Xurk check; it cannot switch into the moves that Xurk will commonly be using (Thunderbolt generally, no one intelligent is going to boost when there's a Mega Aero on the team). Mega Aero is a revenge killer. The most of the common scarfers are not checks since they cannot switch into Thunderbolt, with Hydre and Krook being the main exceptions.

Xurk has almost no defensive counter-play, and thanks to Hypnosis, Xurk can eliminate it. While this isn't a huge issue for offensive teams (Sack something and revenge kill), it pretty much invalidates stall and balance as archtypes for UU. The fact that Xurk essentially forces sacs every time it gets in is completely and utterly cancerous. While yes, Xurk probably won't be sweeping a reasonably prepared team without a lot of support, it will be decimating defensive cores any time it switches into play. Xurk's versatility allows it basically choose what counterplay it will end up with, and then can be built around accordingly. Xurk is incredibly simple to use, and even basic predictions can reap massive rewards due to Beast Boost and the completely absurd power 173 SpAtk provides. This nonsense about saccing something to sleep + saccing something to a +3 attack so you can just revenge kill it later is completely asinine, those types of standards would allow almost any threat in the BL list.
 
#19
I'm not sure where this idea that revenge killing = checking came from, but it's pretty fucking dumb. Mega Aero is not a Xurk check; it cannot switch into the moves that Xurk will commonly be using (Thunderbolt generally, no one intelligent is going to boost when there's a Mega Aero on the team). Mega Aero is a revenge killer. The most of the common scarfers are not checks since they cannot switch into Thunderbolt, with Hydre and Krook being the main exceptions.

Xurk has almost no defensive counter-play, and thanks to Hypnosis, Xurk can eliminate it. While this isn't a huge issue for offensive teams (Sack something and revenge kill), it pretty much invalidates stall and balance as archtypes for UU. The fact that Xurk essentially forces sacs every time it gets in is completely and utterly cancerous. While yes, Xurk probably won't be sweeping a reasonably prepared team without a lot of support, it will be decimating defensive cores any time it switches into play. Xurk's versatility allows it basically choose what counterplay it will end up with, and then can be built around accordingly. Xurk is incredibly simple to use, and even basic predictions can reap massive rewards due to Beast Boost and the completely absurd power 173 SpAtk provides. This nonsense about saccing something to sleep + saccing something to a +3 attack so you can just revenge kill it later is completely asinine, those types of standards would allow almost any threat in the BL list.
CHECKING IS REVENGE KILLING. ASSUMING BOTH POKÉMON ARE IN AT THE SAME TIME SAFELY, WHICHEVER MON WINS 1v1 "CHECKS" THE OTHER.

counters, meanwhile, are mons that can reliably switch in and beat/force out the threat. curl really does lack these.
 
#20
4-Let me repeat. If a Pokémon forces you to do something, that Pokémon is broken.
I agree with a lot of what you said but this part really stood out and IMO needs to be addressed in case someone sees this and votes based on this statement. Adapting to powerful Pokémon should never be used as a criterion for brokenness. Whether it be adjusting EV spreads or running a different move or item for even a single Pokémon, that should not matter because top-tier threats require adaptations. I run Bullet Punch on Lucario solely for Mega Aero, Fire Punch Aggron for Scizor (alongside HP Fire on multiple Pokémon), Scarf Krook for Latias etc. Unless you're forced to run a really, really, really niche set like SpDef Togedemaru, using stuff like fast Gliscor is not a fair argument to ban Xurkitree.

As for my own opinion, I've wavered a lot on whether or not Xurk is broken, but with pokeisfun's emphasis on the Z-Hypnosis I believe it is too strong for UU. The revenge killing argument really falls apart when you realize that Xurkitree is literally the only Pokémon that forces a dedicated revenge killer since any other sweeper has their own set of checks that can take a hit after a boost. I can build a team that's entirely outsped by Mega Aero, for example, but not lose to it on preview since there are so many Pokémon that can take a hit form it, even after it boosts with Hone Claws. The same applies to other fat smashers like Terrakion (Doublade/Quagsire/Slowbro) or Haxorus (Steelix/Aggron live +1 EQs, forced to Outrage to deal significant damage).

Lastly, its matchup vs offense is horribly overstated. Scizor, Swampert, Doublade, Pidgeot, and Togekiss are super common and give Xurkitree free turns to fire off an attack coming from 173 base SpA. Not to mention that literally anything slower is Hypnosis fodder. The accuracy is another thing commonly overstated. If you switch out and it misses, odds are it gets to click it again since it now outspeeds you unless you're wild and threw the one revenge killer you have against it. 84% chance to hit 1 of 2 is a lot more appealing than 60%.

On a final note, it's obvious that Z-Moves are what push Xurk (and many other BL Pokémon :/ ) over the edge so I'm gonna give a quick plug to BAN Z-MOVES FOREVER movement which will probably never happen. Anyway I've played a good amount of games on ladder already and will be voting ban when the time comes.
 
#21
How do i beat speed-boosting Xurkitree?

  1. Switch into your most useless pokemon as sleep fodder (The same procedure is followed with spore amoonguss)
  2. Go hard into either your scarfer or your priority mon, depending on which one is more valuable in the specific game
  3. Either bring Xurkitree into range from your scarf draco/cc/eq/flare blitz or in range of priority
  4. Dead Xurkitree
Yay I killed Xurk ! It only costed me a sleep fodder, a sac and having myself locked into a move.
 
#22
CHECKING IS REVENGE KILLING. ASSUMING BOTH POKÉMON ARE IN AT THE SAME TIME SAFELY, WHICHEVER MON WINS 1v1 "CHECKS" THE OTHER.

counters, meanwhile, are mons that can reliably switch in and beat/force out the threat. curl really does lack these.
Revenge killing is not checking. A check can somewhat reliably switch into a threat and force it out. A check to Xurk should be able to switch into the common moves (Thunderbolt) that Xurk is going to be using, even if they can't switch into, say HP Ice or Grass Knot. Hypnosis makes this a bit more difficult when defining checks for Xurk, which is one of the big reasons we're here.

Winning in a 1v1 is completely irrelevant to what is or isn't a check; Scarf Latias is not a Hydreigon check. This is how it's been for at least 9 years.
 

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#23
Revenge killing is not checking. A check can somewhat reliably switch into a threat and force it out. A check to Xurk should be able to switch into the common moves (Thunderbolt) that Xurk is going to be using, even if they can't switch into, say HP Ice or Grass Knot. Hypnosis makes this a bit more difficult when defining checks for Xurk, which is one of the big reasons we're here.

Winning in a 1v1 is completely irrelevant to what is or isn't a check; Scarf Latias is not a Hydreigon check. This is how it's been for at least 9 years.
No bro. A check is a Pokemon that beats another Pokemon. Please check this out: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters
And let me quote that:

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Weavile is Latias check.
Mega Latias is Keldeo´s counter.

Edit: You said that this article is wrong and you used this thread to defend your point - >http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-uu-teambuilding-compendium.3593718/#post-7202540
That thread is the opposite of what you are saying lol. Lets quote Eyan:

Hard Check: These Pokemon can switch in safely under certain circumstances, but not always (ex: Cobalion or Whimsicott switching into Hydreigon, risking Fire Blast). Pokemon in this category can either switch safely into some variants of a threat but struggle against others, or they struggle with common coverage moves but can at least switch into a threat's STABs and other moves commonly used on switches (such as boosting moves and Knock Off) and win the matchup. This is somewhat of a "gray area" category, so there's a bit of flexibility here.

Soft Check/Revenge Killer: These Pokemon cannot switch safely into a certain threat, generally because they are beaten by one of the threat's STABs, lose if they switch in on a boosting move, etc. Pokemon in this category can, however, defeat a threat in a 1-on-1 matchup. This includes faster revenge killers, as well as Pokemon that can take a single hit and KO back. Choice Scarf users fall into this category, but they aren't specifically mentioned or taken into account in this thread to avoid unnecessary clutter, so do use your own discretion.


In top of that you can see the Hard checks/soft check of every single Pokémon and you will see that none of them can 100% switch in and they are most of the time just a revenge Killer: Cobalion does not switch-in in Hydreigon (, Fire Blast, Superpower), Gliscor does not switch-in in Aero (Aqua Tail and Ice Fang).

I understand your point bro, but if you are going to defend it at least use threads that say the same as you lol. Actually, I probably agree with you in most of your point, but I disagree in a part. As 100% of the checks of a Pokémon are revenge killers, but not all of its revenge killers are good checks (latias with Hydreigon is a good example, as non-scarf latias doesnt check scarf hydra.) It depends on the mon that we talk about.
 
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#24
Lastly, its matchup vs offense is horribly overstated. Scizor, Swampert, Doublade, Pidgeot, and Togekiss are super common and give Xurkitree free turns to fire off an attack coming from 173 base SpA. Not to mention that literally anything slower is Hypnosis fodder. The accuracy is another thing commonly overstated. If you switch out and it misses, odds are it gets to click it again since it now outspeeds you unless you're wild and threw the one revenge killer you have against it. 84% chance to hit 1 of 2 is a lot more appealing than 60%.
Although not the most common 3 attack Mega Pidgeot can kamizake KO with Hyper Beam, which may be worth sacrificing for if your team is about to die to Xurki or you don't care of giving 1 free turn

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 334-394 (108.7 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


In any case yeah ban Xurkitree, it's too powerful of a wallbreaker with almost perfect coverage and setup moves
 
#25
That article is wrong.

The ability to win a 1v1 is a terrible standard for ''checking' something because these 1v1s don't happen in the game without a sac (at which point its a revenge kill). Scarf Latias wins a 1v1 versus Hydreigon, but is obviously not a check. Hydrei's list of checks does not include a bunch of things 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse because they technically win 1v1. When trying to come up with defensive counterplay to a Pokemon (what countering or checking something is), you have to consider switching into it, this is way the game functions as long as there's any team more defensive than Bulky Offensive teams.

I can go down a long list of things that "check" things that they obviously don't; EP Celebi 'checks' Heatran, Specs Accelgor 'checks' Hydreigon, Scarf Latias 'checks' Haxorus. The job of a check is not just "make sure this doesn't get more than one kill," but to, either with good play, or temporarily, prevent a pokemon from KOs / doing its job. If we're going by this revenge killing definition, then the term has no purpose in any suspect thread. You can revenge kill nearly every single threat in BL right now, as can OU do to Ubers (and Ubers to Mega Rayquaza), which makes the term completely pointless as a moniker, not to mention the absurdity of both Accelgor and Blissey being listed as 'checks' to Hydreigon despite the obvious disparity in how they would function against it.
 
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