np: SM UU Stage 3 - Now Or Never

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#26
as much as i love xurkitree and i could sit here all day defending it it simply has got to go. 2 much power, 2 fast for that kind of power, reasonable bulk, many viable sets, this thing was too good from the beginning.
despite me loving it to death im gonna say Ban
 
#27
as much as i love xurkitree and i could sit here all day defending it it simply has got to go. 2 much power, 2 fast for that kind of power, reasonable bulk, many viable sets, this thing was too good from the beginning.
despite me loving it to death im gonna say Ban
I love Xurk too but it's pretty obvious that UU can't deal with the amount of power that it has. So I'm going Ban
 
#28
I'm really liking the meta without Xurkitree a lot more. Even if Xurkitree isn't necessarily broken, it's really unhealthy because it hinders more defensive playstyles far more than it should. It makes stall almost completely unviable and puts balance at a noticeable disadvantage more often than not. I don't think slapping on a Scarf Krook, Mega Aerodactyl, or even specially defensive Kyurem on stall is adequate. Neither of the former two are switch ins, meaning you're either hard switching them in on a good prediction or coming in after a revenge kill. Even after coming in, it's not as if Xurkitree can't be a problem after that. Using Pursuit comes with obvious risk, but even after a successful Pursuit, Xurkitree can still pose a threat. Kyurem also isn't necessarily a good answer since not only is it not able to OHKO Xurkitree, but could potentially be useless against Z-Hypnosis or Electrium-Z sets as well.

I'm finding that without Xurkitree, defensive teams are still far from being too strong, but are at least playable. I got reqs with stall pretty efficiently, but while building I noticed that the tier still had an arsenal of threats to pressure defensive teams with and it's just not possible to cover anywhere near everything in 6 slots. However, the playstyle at least becomes viable again and I cannot stress enough how important that is. Having a pokemon in the tier that can almost completely invalidate a playstyle on its own is just not healthy. I think people underestimate Xurkitree's impact against more offensive teams, but even if the case was that Xurkitree did absolutely nothing against offense, I would still think it deserves to go. As much as I enjoy an offensive meta, I don't think it's okay for defensive teams to fold as easily as they do with Xurkitree in the tier. Whether it's broken or not, I think Xurkitree damages the tier to a heavy extent while not adding much benefit to it if any. I'll be voting towards banning it.
 
#30


My first post was a rebuttal of the idea that Xurkitree can be countered or checked like most threats. However, having no counters has long been an insufficient reason to ban something - for example, Lucario has no true counters in UU but is pretty much universally accepted to be healthy in the metagame.

Since then, quite a few posts on why Xurkitree should be banned have been made. I definitely agree with the arguments made previously and I'll outline them now:
  • Unlike most offensive threats, Xurkitree can only be checked by revenge killing; it is next to impossible to tank a move and KO back or "defensively" check it. This isn't made easier by the fact it runs a very viable set that ourspeeds the entire unboosted metagame bar Mega Aero
  • The threat has an incredibly dominating match up against stall. True stall has always been able to run a fast offensive Pokemon, but up until now it has never really required that. Additionally, that way of checking is not always reliable and also signals the death of an archetype (6 wall stall, which was viable pre-Xurkitree)
  • Xurkitree has a surprisingly large amount of versatility - it can not only run a number of different sets and items, but also be supported in a number of ways, with Aurora Veil being the most explored and dangerous piece of support
These points contribute to the overall argument that Xurkitree is too strong and unbalanced for the current metagame and should be banned. And in my opinion, these arguments alone are already sufficient in establishing Xurkitree's banworthiness.

However, I think at least one more point can be offered in terms of discussion.

Z-Hypnosis is outright uncompetitive, and I think, the best Xurkitree set:

  • While I do not have strong evidence to back this claim up, my instincts tell me a lot of the reason why people bash the Z-Hypnosis set is that it was pretty mediocre in OU and people just assumed it would be similarly poor in UU.
  • This is absolutely not the case, Z Hypnosis sets still offer a huge amount of wallbreaking power as it can incapacitate defensive counters rather easily - for example, a sleeping Blissey just loses. And hyper offense traditionally does not use Scarfers, so if Xurkitree comes in on say a Scizor, it can seriously threaten to sweep
  • The uncompetitve aspect comes from Hypnosis and the extra coverage move, which means Xurkitree has no universal check for this single set - not even mentioning other sets. Additionally, Hypnosis is more reliable than often given credit for since you can use it twice usually on a switch in (84%) and sometimes the miss can even be helpful if your opponent is trying to activate Sleep Clause with death fodder. I won't go as far as to say higher accuracy would be worse, but for Xurkitree, using a 60% accurate move is absolutely viable.
I'm very likely to vote ban on Xurkitree if I reach requirements, but I will still appreciate any discussion on the topic.
 
#31
Well, now that I got my reqs, I guess I can give me my opinion on this new metagame. To be honest it's clearly better without Xurkitree, I've seen all types of team (HO, offense, balanced, Stall etc..) and all of this teams were kinda good.
Unlike to what certain people were afraid, Hardstall are clearly not unstoppable, There is always a lot of potential threats to deal with stall (and I will talk about after for those interested) and play with Stall team is clearly not the option of ease.

Basically, this is the team I built for the suspect :



The export : http://pokepast.es/b48a769c706c4c19

You can run Mandibuzz (for Decidueye) or Gliscor (to outspeed Heracross Guts) over Togekiss but it force you to run Heal Bell over Wish on Blissey.

Export with Mandibuzz : http://pokepast.es/871794fce2229676
Export with Gliscor : http://pokepast.es/bbc4483aaf1f58eb

Threatlist :

  • : Pokemonisfun talks about it on the VR UU but it's a real threat vs Stall. If Aggron-Mega is weakened, it can be very difficult to deal with Decidueye.
Decidueye @ Decidium Z
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit Shackle
- Sucker Punch / Roost
  • : With Swords Dance or Leech Seed / Mixed, Abomasnow-Mega can be very deadly for stall.
  • : SD LO / SD Waterium Z can easily break through Alomomola and Quagsire.
Crawdaunt @ Waterium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off​
  • : With Life Orb and SD, this 2 Fighting type can nuke Stall walls (2HKO Quagsire).
  • : I've seen some people run Stallbreaker set with Sub / Taunt + Z-Shadow Ball and it's very strong against Stall.
Chandelure @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute / Taunt
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Energy Ball​
  • : Biggest threat tbh. Heracross put a lot of pressure on Stall and can basically OHKO / 2HKO every single Pokemon in a defensive team. If you want an answer for stall, here you are.
Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off
  • : All this 4 Stallbreaker can bother Stall team.
And I don't talk about Pokemon Lure like Z-Outrage Kyurem / Hydreigon or Dragalge, Magnet Rise Magneton or even Toxic SD Scizor...

I'm going to vote Ban cuz' UU is trully better right now without Xurkitree and that without it there is much more variety (and cuz' Xurk is broken too lol).
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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#32
Alright, I wanted to hold off on posting for a while because I wanted to really get my thoughts together and spend a lot of time in both the suspect ladder meta and in the standard meta. I've never doubted Xurkitree's raw potential, or its ability to power through unprepared teams. That said, I voted no ban on both previous Xurk votes.

So, has anything changed? Well, yes, a couple of things have. First and foremost, I'll agree with a lot of others here in that I made a mistake in initially discounting the viability of the Z-Hypnosis set. For a long time I argued against this set, primarily because I felt that having room for only one coverage move prevented Xurkitree from effectively breaking through bulkier teams and left it too frequently walled. In practice, however, the Z-Hypno set is far more threatening than I'd given it credit for. While it definitely sacrifices some of its potential against bulkier teams and stall, it is still effective at breaking these types of teams down (even if it doesn't just sweep through them the way the three attacks version can). Meanwhile, its matchup against offense is significantly improved. The mere threat of Hypnosis means that offense cannot switch its Xurkitree answer directly in, even if it would otherwise be a solid answer (such as Scarf Latias, which can tank any unboosted hit short of Specs Gleam and if it doesn't outright KO always does enough to put it in range of any priority). This puts a ton of pressure on the opposing team that a competent player can use to their advantage.

Second, the rise in usage of Veil teams has made a huge difference. I'll say this right now: Xurkitree under Veil is broken as shit. Almost every criticism I level against Xurkitree disappears once Veil/screens go up. To put things into perspective, its defenses under Veil are roughly comparable to bulky Mew/Celebi (uninvested Xurkitree under Veil is almost exactly as bulky in any given defense as 252/64+ Mew). Its issues with limited setup opportunities, its vulnerability to being easily revenge killed even after setting up, its crap defensive typing: all of these become irrelevant.

So are these points enough to shift my opinion on Xurkitree? Well, the first point definitely does. The second point is a bit harder; Xurkitree is not the only threat that Aurora Veil makes completely ridiculous (see also: Hawlucha, Suicune, Doublade, SD Scizor, Cofagrigus, and probably a bunch of others). While Xurkitree is probably up there with Suicune and Lucha as the worst offender under Veil, it's such a widespread issue that I have trouble believing that this is an issue inherent to Xurkitree rather than to Aurora Veil itself.

All of this is a really roundabout way of saying that I'm still really not sure what to think of Xurkitree. It is definitely a major threat, and one that is more difficult to deal with than I'd initially given it credit for. As for the new ladder, mostly it's been about the same to me. (That said, I have not yet tried stall on the new ladder, so I can't really speak to whether or not that has improved.) The biggest difference is that Veil teams were initially a bit less threatening, having lost their best way of breaking through fat... but already I've seen some Veil teams start to adjust, adding on anti-stall measures like Guts Hera or NP Hoopa. Hippo has also improved a bit, which is nice for bulky offense/balance but not really earth-shattering. Xurkitree being gone certainly relieves some teambuilding pressure, but the same would be true if you removed any major threat.

As a general rule, when I'm undecided on whether something should go or not, I always lean toward not banning. I'll keep testing both on and off the suspect ladder, but that's still where I am right now, so I will most likely vote do not ban on Xurkitree.
 
#33
Since the Z-Hypnosis set has been the main focus of this debate, with it's other sets simply getting mentions for their ability to work around Xurkitree's checks/revenger I'll be using this post to talk about one of those sets that take full advantage of the Hypnosis sets popularity.

Xurkitree @ Electrium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Coverage / Tail Glow
- Coverage


For the most part we can agree that you need to fodder something off to the Z-Hypnosis before you can safely send in your check, right? And usually when choosing a sack you go for something that isn't going to do much that match, possibly something already low on health.
Well this set adds another layer to that, if you sack something that's unable to break Xurkitree's Substitute before dying you've either just given the opponent a Beast Boost and a free shield to hide behind, or you're forced switch again and break the sub and with something else, giving Xurk another free turn. This isn't really a problem for faster offensive teams, but it's yet another issue for balanced and stall when it comes to dealing with Xurkitree.
And even once you know it's Sub set you still have to play around it, for example, do you keep your Tentacruel in to break the Substitute, or do you switch to your Scarf Krook on the predicted Thunderbolt? Sure, you can just go straight to Krook on the set up and break the sub no problem, but then you're locked into a move and Xurk just got a decent chuck of damage on it's check with Grass Knot/Hp Ice before leaving to potentially do the same thing later, unlike the Z-sets which tend to be one and done. You basically have to play very aggressively against Xurk to keep it from getting into a favorable position against you if you're not using a offensive team, which kinda sucks.

Ultimately I doubt SubXurk will ever see as much usage as the Z-Hypnosis set if this monster stays in UU, but that kinda works to it's advantage and can lead to some pretty frustrating moments if you choose the wrong thing to sack to it.
 

p2

enfuego theorist
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#34
I personally don't think Xurk is a broken presence in the tier, I see that a lot of people are bringing up its impact vs defensive teams that make it too overbearing, which I don't agree with at all. Right now, there's the solution of opting for a more offensively inclined addition to stall teams, usually in a Pursuit trapper like Scarf Krook or Band Weav. Stall also has the option of Kyurem which walls Xurk lacking Gleam fairly well and isn't a dumb dead weight option like Togedemaru because it's actually useful vs other stallbreakers like Glisc, Toge and it can take on Suicune well too.

Either way, my main point I want to bring up; will banning Xurk be enough for defensive teams to be a solid pick again? After playing the suspect ladder and getting reqs, I noticed that stall and other extremely fat teams just fall flat vs other breakers that risen up like Heracross, while also really struggling to deal with other ones like Hydra. I don't think banning Xurk is gonna be overly beneficial for bulky teams because teams are just gonna shift over to the next best thing, which similarly carves through stall with ease.

You could argue that Xurk is simply too much on say, Veil teams, but as hogg said this isn't a problem exclusive to Xurk and can be very easily applied to the other breakers you find on those kind of teams.

My main reason which is influencing my vote here is "Is Xurkitree too overbearing as an offensive threat in the metagame and over limiting in options for relevant counterplay?" I don't think it is, I don't think stall issues will be solved by removing it from the tier, and I do not think it's too unbearable as a threat, because really, all Xurk mandates in terms of speed is that you're run Pokemon faster than Nidoking.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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#35
Well after getting a nice healthy amount of games in I gotta say the meta without Xurkitree is a lot less...restrictive, for both defensive and even offensive teams. A lot of defensive teams that you would otherwise say "lol this gets 6-0ed by +3 Xurk" have instantly risen up in viability in the meta. Meanwhile offensive teams aren't forced to use Scarf Ape/Lati/Hydreigon/Mega Aero/Mega Shark, which is what they'd otherwise need to revenge kill it at +1. The scariest thing to me about Xurkitree is its unpredictability...as everyone has stated, it has a nice amount of viable sets--Scarf, Specs, Shuca Berry, Z-Hypnosis, Tail Glow, Substitute, Zap Plate, Electrium-Z...and every single one of these is viable, not even getting into the fact coverage such as Dazzling Gleam can take some of its checks by surprise. You take that kind of versatility and add it to a mon that has the capacity to annihilate stall and pretty much every defensive "counter" that is slower than it, and you get a mon that could literally be any set, and you can't tell simply by team preview. Not until Xurkitree has clicked a few moves will you know what set it's truly running. And in some cases (such as when you see it using Hypnosis) it'll be too late by the time you figure out the set, meaning trying to scout early to figure out your counterplay isn't always a safe or effective method.

Lowkey I also feel like losing Conkeldurr in UU helped Xurkitree because it's one less priority user that actually puts a huge dent in Xurkitree. Don't get me wrong because we still have good usable priority--Mach Punch from Infernape, Ice Shard from Mamoswine/Weavile/Abomasnow, Extreme Speed from Entei, and Sucker Punch from Mega Absol, you have to factor how much comparatively weaker they are to Conk's Mach Punch. LO Infernape barely has a 6% chance to 2HKO with Stealth Rock up, while neither Abomasnow, Weavile nor (Jolly) Mamoswine can 2HKO with Ice Shard. Entei's Extreme Speed does some big damage, the worst thing is that Entei is easy to wear down and even punish for locking into espeed in some cases. Mega Absol actually gets a clean 2HKO with Sucker Punch, tho...the biggest drawback is you're using a Mega Absol. So outside of picking off a weakened Xurk with these moves, one of the aforementioned scarfers/Mega Aerodactyl/Mega Sharpedo is really all Offense has to revenge kill a healthy Xurkitree. Some of these mons were forced to be used on even stall teams just so they could have a chance against Xurkitree too lol. With all that, I'd prolly ban Xurkitree if given the chance. Turns out a mediocre speed tier and average bulk is easily compensated by great coverage, one of the best setup moves in the game, and a special-ed Special Attack stat.

tl;dr: Xurkitree's versatile enough that it severely restricts teambuilding for defensive teams, while still being able to put a lot of pressure on offensive teams that need to rely on specific mons just to safely revenge kill a +1 Xurkitree. If that ain't unhealthy, I don't know what is.
 
#37
Personally I don't think banning Xurkitree would automatically solve all issues stall have right now, but it would give those teams more flexibility to deal with similar threats, which realistically are much more checkable than Xurkitree. To be Xurkitree "proof" stall teams need:

- At least two Pokemon with Electric immunity, Steelix is a stall stable so there's one but Quagsire, another key Pokemon in stall, really doesn't offer anything vs Xurk. More offensive options like Gliscor and Krookodile are the way to go, but Xurkitree commonly has ways around both (other than "predicting and getting the OHKO") because they are the most common Ground-type Pokemon in the tier

- A Pokemon faster that revenge kills. Sure you can overlap one the Electric immune Pokemon with the revenge killer, but that means that you are one prediction / Shuca Berry away from having a boosted Xurkitree, 5 Pokemon slower than it and 1 soft check. Also as good as Pursuit Krookodile is, you are only forcing a 50-50 vs Xurkitree and Pursuit does around 50% if it switches. Dragon are the other option, but Hydreion fears the OHKO from Dazzling Gleam, Latias can be chipped down and fears Pursuit, and Kyurem is heavily punished by SR, which forces it to Roost pretty much everytime it switches in and Xurk is one of the best Pokemon at pressuring Defoggers / Spinners commonly used in stall

Those preparations are definitely not completely unreasonable, but they do limit the amount of viable stall builds and make stall in general much easier to break by other means. Why suspect Xurk and not the "other" stuff? because not only Xurkitree is capable of OHKOing the entire meta after setting up, but it's also much harder to punish for "wasting" its Z-move (you sac something weakened to the Z move, and now you have to deal with a +4 Xurk), the threat of Volt Switch forces defensive teams to run multiple Electric immunities and heavily punishes any sort of misprediction when running more offensive teams, and it makes borderline unviable most defensive cores you can run in balance-ish teams, making all those teams run the same 3-4 Pokemon every time.

Z-Hypnosis Xurkitree is good, but in my experience it's only useful vs the kind of teams that can easily afford saccing a Pokemon, it doesn't have many chances of setting up, and has massive 4MSS. Xurkitree in veil is absolutely ridiculous, but the same applies to like 5 other Pokemon under the same conditions. For me the best and most troublesome sets are Tail Glow 3 attacks (with Z-Tbolt, Zap Plate, Shuca) and 4 Attacks (Zap Plate, Specs).

During the suspect, I mainly used a stall team with Dual Defog (Togekiss, Moltres), which would be completely unviable vs Xurkitree despite having Quagsire + Steelix + Blissey. Other wallbreakers that are commonly brought up, such as Haxorus, Heracross, Chandelure and Crawdaunt were major threats (especially the latter), but never to the point of not being able to play around them and the team ended up winning against them fairly consistently. I tried more offensive-ish teams on non-reqs alts, some of thems were fairly cheesey, and honestly they were pretty mediocre because they weren't Aurora Veil or particularly good against it; that playstyle pretty much invalidates almost every other kind of offensive team.
 

Eyan

c'est la vie
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#38
Yet again, I just went with council reqs because yet again, I'm lazy. That said, I played about 50 games or so just to try forming a solid opinion using various teams (mainly offense), which included non-Xurkitree Veil, non-Veil HO, pretty standard BO, Mega Steelix Sylveon balance, and even gave Hikari's dual Defog stall a whirl.

After using Veil for a bit, I can confidently say that that archetype, with or without Xurkitree, is incredibly dumb and annoying to deal with. Yes, Xurkitree being gone definitely alleviates a ton of pressure these types of teams exert on others, but they're still incredibly threatening. As such, I don't think banning Xurkitree would solve this issue per se. It's just Aurora Veil that's propagating the broken nature of the Pokemon to insane levels. I know this is a Xurkitree suspect, not an Aurora Veil suspect, but I'd definitely be on board with looking into the latter in the near future, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one echoing this.

When using non-Aurora Veil HO teams, it was okay, but like Hikari said, the moment I come across opposing Veil, my team drops. It's not even that I had no answers to Aurora Veil, it's that even with said answers, I either get exploited because of the loss of momentum (and damage output in the meantime), or I give some huge threat like Hawlucha a free setup opportunity. As far as Xurkitree itself goes, though, I didn't feel as pressured and cautious to keep stuff like Hydreigon, Latias, Krookodile (mainly Scarfed variants), and Mega Aerodactyl as I did. This is sort of where I want to briefly mention the debated viability of the Z-Hypnosis set. While on its own, I still don't think it's that great (better than I initially though despite the accuracy of Hypnosis, though), but when combined with the possibility of various other Tail Glow variants and 4 attacks sets, it gets significantly scarier and better in an offense matchup. To put it into perspective, when facing a Xurkitree, if it were Z-Hypnosis, I'd want to sack something to sleep fodder and/or just sacking it to an attack before going into my designated revenge killer, which I still dislike having to do. However, it could very well just be Shuca to punish Mega Aerodactyl and Krookodile or 4 attacks to just Volt Switch out of my sleep fodder. Latias, in particular, is a very common yet shaky "answer" to Xurkitree, since Pursuit is such a great move right now. That said, while I've had trouble, I've never outright lost to it that easily.

As for fatter balance and stall teams go, there really isn't much to say that Hikari hasn't already covered, which makes sense considering I used his stall team (Moltres is lit by the way). Xurkitree exerts a pressure on defensive teams like no other threat does between its raw power, a really good setup move in Tail Glow, and the possibility of boosting even more with Beast Boost. This doesn't even take into account the sets containing Electrium Z to nuke the absolute hell out of walls (or any non-Ground-type really). Xurkitree is accountable, but it takes a lot out of the playstyle.

For the record, I voted no ban on Xurkitree in both the council votes previously. It wasn't because I deemed Xurkitree as healthy for the metagame. If anything, I just wasn't sure whether it was broken, and as such, I voted in a way that wouldn't change the tier. For this test, it really seems like Xurkitree is going to be banned from the general consensus of the community; personally, though, my opinion is very similar to how it was previously and to hogg's. I'm genuinely unsure as to whether I'd want Xurkitree banned, and I'll probably get a couple more games to try properly swaying myself either way. Otherwise, I'll be sticking to the safe option of voting do not ban.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
#39
I've been observing this discussion a lot but I didn't want to make any posts until I had gotten a solid amount of games in myself. On ladder, I played the majority of my games using the stall team Moutemoute posted above. (Triple water is sick, btw.) After playing all of my games and seeing things from stall's perspective, I think a lot of my thoughts on this echo what Hikari said. While banning Xurkitree doesn't outright solve all of the problems stall has, they gain a lot more flexibility in their ability to deal with those other problems. A lot of other stallbreakers have been brought up, and a lot of them overlap the threatlist Moutemoute posted with the team. I played against pretty much all of them at some point on ladder, but none of them were so threatening that I couldn't play around them, even behind Aurora Veil. (Aside from Hogg's disgusting Sand Tomb Gliscor set.)

Also similar to CSB's thoughts, the biggest selling point to me is Xurkitree's diversity. It's not that it has "a lot," it has just enough between Z-Hypnosis, Z-Tbolt, Shuca, Zap Plate, etc. to really punish you for not going into the match knowing what set it's running. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, though. I want to play/watch some more games where Xurkitree is allowed still, because I started playing again just before the Suspect ladder went live, so I don't have as many games in that metagame as I would like, but from what I've seen so far, it's enough for me to highly consider voting ban.
 
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Sacri'

Itching for a fight
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#40
I got council reqs earlier this week but I didn't find the time to post afterwards. I've been voicing my concerns regarding Xurk for quite a while and despite some important changes in the tier my opinion remains pretty much the same. Xurkitree nearly invalidates bulkier teams in ther tier while still being a considerable threat vs other kind of teams. It's versatibily is also one of the things that make it unhealthy, all the different sets it may run don't have the same counterplays which makes it much trickier to play against. I've tried the Specs variant as Dgleam invalidates dragon types which used to be seen as the only reliable way to take Xurkitree on. It worked out perfectly and I was able to catch several free kills because Xurkitree is so threatening that going hard to Hydreigon/Latias/Kyurem is usually the only play that doesn't potentially force a sack. I firmly believe that the tier will be better without Xurkitree which is why I'm going to vote ban.
 

Amaroq

I now use The Reinhardt.
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#41
After completing council reqs, I've come to the conclusion that Xurkitree is not healthy for the tier. While this contradicts my earlier votes, that is because I was unsure whether or not to ban Xurkitree in previous votes and erred on the side of caution in those instances. Xurkitree places too much pressure on bulkier archetypes in the current meta. While stall and balance being weaker than offense is not inherently a bad thing, the imbalance should not be to the degree that I feel exists in the current meta. Every playstyle will always have problems, but we should do our best to keep those problems to manageable levels. For those worried about stall becoming too strong, countermeasures still exist. Heracross, Gliscor, Crawdaunt, Haxorus, Togekiss, Bewear, Mamoswine, and Mega Sharpedo can all effectively pressure stall teams, either alone or in conjunction with other breakers or support.

Aurora Veil is also extremely unhealthy, and, in my opinion, even worse for the tier than Xurkitree. Aurora Veil support makes it incredibly easy for an enormous number of threatening Pokemon to set up and break opposing teams in a tier already saturated with offensive threats and does to offense what Xurkitree does to bulkier archetypes. Right now, the incentive to run hyper offense without Aurora Veil is extremely limited, due to the ease with which Aurora Veil offense can claim momentum or simply allow Pokemon to set up on their checks in relative safety. The meta is so full of dangerous Pokemon that it is difficult to include redundant checks to every significant offensive threat, meaning that teams are sometimes forced to rely on keeping a single answer healthy. In these situations, Aurora Veil allows a Pokemon to bypass an opposing team's only available counterplay unless that check can win even under Aurora Veil (to say nothing of the chip damage associated with Hail, which could easily bring a check into KO range over the course of a game, especially in conjunction with the standard hyper offense strategy of overloading the checks to a given sweeper or cleaner), which makes the UU meta more matchup-based than I believe is ideal.
 
#42
I'll try to write up a more elaborate (and preachy) 'ban Xurkitree' post in the near future, but for now I'm glad the discussion hasn't died down yet.
So here we are then. :p Ever since it first dropped to UU I've arguably been council's biggest Xurkitree hater, and it hasn't changed. I've voted ban and ban the two previous times Xurkitree was on the chopping block and will do so a third time today. Fingers crossed...

I've been reading through the thread and I appreciate both sides of the argument being eloquently represented. This has been a solid discussion and I just wanted to acknowledge that. As for why I'm voting ban, most of it has been said already. For me it's a combination of its immediate power, its ability to further boost said power to absurd levels (in a single turn), its access to coverage moves to handle otherwise checks to it (Dazzling Gleam being the most prominent), being able to cater its sets to suit specific match-ups (think Z-Hypnosis and Shuca Berry, for example) and finally being deceptively tricky to revenge kill (pokeisfun's elaborate posts do a great job at pointing this out!). And that's not even factoring in support like Aurora Veil, which is a different monster in itself.

The main downsides to using Xurkitree, in my opinion, are its Speed stat and its lack of defensive contribution. Note that I only find its lack of defensive contribution a true flaw in terms of defensive structure, not finding it difficult for Xurkitree to switch into play, because it is not (Hikari explained so very nicely). However, these issues aren't anywhere near big enough to overthrow its massive influence and power, in my opinion. As said before, I'm voting ban once again.
 

Euphonos

stains every heart that he uses to heal the pain
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
#43
Apologies if you may find me outlandish for this opinion: while Xurkitree undoubtedly makes a phenomenal impact in the UU metagame, I don't think its capabilities are too much to warrant a ban.

Allow me to mention that the Z-Hypnosis set, while one of the most common sets Xurkitree can run, still has some forms of counterplay apart from foddering someone to sleep and revenge kill it with a Scarfed mon such as Nidoking and Krookodile (though while I acknowledge that there is a Shuca Berry variation, you just can't have that item because of Psychium Z). Running Sleep Talk on a Choiced Pokemon definitely is a thing and it's possible to catch them by surprise, thinking that setting up is a breeze, only to get damaged by an attack with Sleep Talk kicking in (special mention to Guts Heracross).

On the topic of diversity, what makes Xurkitree somehow more threatening is the use of Z-Electric Terrain along with Hawlucha holding an Electric Seed; that is more annoying than I would expect. I admit Xurkitree can possibly run a myriad of items and can possibly run a lot of moves worth putting; there are various downsides for every set such that Xurkitree can be played around.

On the topic of breaking stall teams, which pokeisfun elaborately pointed out, I think the structure of such playstyle can be adapted to a point that it needs more than one answer to Pokemon such as Xurkitree; other stall teams would fall flat against other Pokemon such as Mega Abomasnow and Gliscor, among others. The same could be done to other archetypes as well such that Xurkitree can be handled nicely too.

(note: while I did vote for not banning Xurkitree, I actually don't mind it being banned since arguments from the pro-ban side are very solid as well.)
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#46
Well now that Xurkitree is banned, we're able to get back to normal discussion, and because of Xurkitree's ban, I believe several Pokemon have/will become better.


Crawdaunt is one of those Pokemon that has been getting better and better since the start of the generation. It became better when Conkeldurr was banned, and now I think it's going to be better now that Xurkitree is banned. Not only has it lost one check, but two, which is exactly what this Pokemon needed. There's not much else to say about this, as Xurkitree leaving doesn't make a certain set better, but just makes the Pokemon more usable.


With Xurkitree exiting the tier, our only electric types are Magneton and Raikou. Obviously, Raikou is better since it's faster, more versatile, and can set up with Calm Mind. Utilizing it's many sets, I believe this Pokemon is going to jump in usage thanks to losing one of our finest electric types. I think the best set right now is still it's Calm Mind set, but there are other sets that are usable also like Ghostium Z, Scarf, and Substitute.

Primarina (rip the mini sprite)
This has the same thing going for it as Crawdaunt, it lost one of it's biggest checks. This Pokemon was already really good, and with Xurkitree leaving, it's great news for Primarina since Xurkitree was it's best offensive checks. Obviously things like Klefki and Scizor still exist, but they only account for the Fairy-type moves Primarina might want to use.

Anyway, these are just some of the Pokemon I'll certainly be using since Xurkitree is gone, now let's take down Aurora Veil.
 
#47
Gardevoir-Mega moved from OU to UU
Jirachi moved from OU to UU
Kingdra moved from BL3 to OU
Nihilego moved from OU to UU
Mantine moved from RU to UU
Gallade-Mega moved from OU to UU
Hawlucha moved from UU to OU
Ampharos-Mega moved from OU to UU
Latias-Mega moved from OU to UU
Heracross-Mega moved from OU to UU
Altaria-Mega moved from OU to UU
Ninetales-Alola moved from UU to OU
Smeargle moved from OU to UU
Manectric-Mega moved from OU to UU
Heracross moved from BL2 to UU
Hoopa-Unbound moved from OU to UU
Rotom-Wash moved from OU to UU

Cped this here for your convenience. This is wild. Will post more on it later, but tl;dr the tier is fucked.
 
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#48
Well, Ninetales and Hawlucha being gone means that Aurora Veil shouldn't be (as much of) a problem anymore.

No way in fuck will Hoopa-Unbound not get quickbanned though.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#50
Damn, you sniped me. I was this close to getting them posted. But, for those who are interested in the original thread, you can find it here. Now, I want to give my thoughts on the OU drops.

Mega Gardevoir
This Pokemon is absolutely broken in UU, literally 2HKOing everything in the tier. Yes, this includes Mega Aggron and Mantine. Obviously, Scizor checks it but that's where the UU room and I made the strategy of Eject Button Alomomola into Magneton to trap Scizor for Gardevoir. There's no doubt in my mind this Pokemon will be suspect tested/quick banned.

Jirachi
Jirachi is one of those Pokemon that I'm unsure of how well it will perform. It has a multitude of different sets, even able to run the Z-Celebrate. Now that I think about it that sounds pretty bad, so maybe we will get rid of it. It also has a Scarf set, Calm Mind, WishProtect, Rocks, and many others, as well as having insane coverage as well. The more I type this, the better I think this Pokemon is, but I'm still unsure as to whether we'd want to consider banning it or not.

Nihilego
I think Nihilego will be a great Pokemon, able to set up both Stealth Rocks and Toxic Spikes. It can also run a Specs or Scarf set, to break through a lot of the meta. Hell, it can even run Scarf Hazards, as suggested by the UU room. I don't have much else to say about this Pokemon mainly because I know almost nothing about it. It's too early to determine how viable it is, especially since the top 3 Pokemon commonly use moves that beat this Pokemon. For now, I'm going to say that's it's going to be good, but not broken.

Mega Gallade
This Pokemon, like Mega Gardevoir, seems absolutely insane on paper. Both it's STABs are extremely good, Fighting and Psychic, as well as having access to Knock Off. It's speed is pretty good, tying with Latias, as well as being able to set up a Swords Dance, or even Bulk Up. I personally believe that this Pokemon won't be broken, but will be very good.

Mega Ampharos
Two words: Absolutely terrible.

Mega Latias
This Pokemon is one I didn't think would drop, but somehow it did anyway. Mega Latias is mainly known for it's BoltBeam Calm Mind Recover set, which does put in work, and it certainly will in UU too. BoltBeam coverage is what a lot of people would call the best coverage in the game, and that really applies here. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't have it's answers, such as Scizor and Kyurem. It can also run an offensive Calm Mind set, which I assume will be the most popular. However, we'll have to see how that goes. What regular Latias has over this though is the ability to run an item. Sometimes you may want a Scarf Latias and obviously Mega Latias can't run that. All in all, I think this Pokemon will have a place in the UU meta, but we'll have to see how big of a place that is.

Mega Heracross
This Pokemon will be good and I'll tell you why. Heracross itself rose up to UU because of it's damage capabilities, so I believe this Pokemon will be used also if not more. It will still be used in the same way Heracross was: Tailwind support. Also, while it does miss out on Guts, keep in mind this thing has the highest Attack stat of any non-Uber Pokemon. I know some of you are thinking "oh Talonflame counters lol." However, that's not the truth. Mega Heracross is able to run Rock Blast, that puts Talonflame in check, and if Talonflame is damaged and rocks are up, it's not even a check. Overall, this Pokemon will be great.

Mega Altaria
I'll be honest I have no idea what this Pokemon does other than Dragon Dance but that seems pretty powerful in itself but it seems Scizor may be a soft check and that's because Mega Altaria can run Fire Blast. We'll have to see how this one plays out.

Mega Manectric
This thing is going to have a lot of rivalry with Raikou because while it is faster and more powerful, Raikou has access to items as well as Calm Mind. It's also slightly less bulkier than Raikou is, so that's a little minus, since it's not a huge difference. It also has Overheat/Flamethrower over Raikou which is cool. Overall, it's going to share some competition with Raikou, and I think Raikou will just come up on top, since you can run a different mega + you have access to items and set up.

Hoopa-U
I wonder when the quick ban thread is going up...

Rotom-Wash
Oh look, a Pokemon that's not entirely broken! Rotom-Wash is going to be decent in UU, as it can run defensive sets as well as offensive sets. Having access to both Will-o-Wisp and Thunder Wave is cool too, being able to shut down some threats. It also has a pivot move in Volt Switch, allowing you to damage counters as they switch in. Mega Sceptile is the hardest counter to this Pokemon, like the hardest counter of all time so there's that. Basically, this Pokemon will be okay.

That's all I have for now, if these posts seem stupid that's because this news just dropped on us and we've not seen how they perform in the tier. Quick ban Hoopa-U btw.

Edit:
Smeargle
I forgot this Pokemon. It invalidates Shuckle and makes webs more viable. Nothing more to say than that.
 
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