NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[shrang]

I'm not sure exactly what's causing the drop in Rain, but stall and balanced seem like the way to go in this metagame.

It's because people know how to deal with Rain now, and the people using Rain aren't getting the cheap wins that they used to get, so they go back to tried and true teams that work every time.

 

[asdfrozen]

The offensive version I take it? In that case it is going to take 2 returns (37.2% - 43.8%) to the face from leafeon to get off the SD and also stone edge will have to hit 2x in a row.

The set assumes that the switch-in is going to be something carrying a fire attack, which is what happens almost every time I play Torterra, but yeah, a wall before SD would force Torterra out.

 

[Flamewheeler]

It's because people know how to deal with Rain now, and the people using Rain aren't getting the cheap wins that they used to get, so they go back to tried and true teams that work every time.

I'm pretty sure that people knew how to deal with rain before, but preparing for shit like raikou, moltres, and whorelass's spikes being everywhere, the teams weren't being made with rain in mind. There was a lot to counter and rain wasn't as populer as everyone said it was, so anyone running it got pretty easy wins. It's always been good, like it's been stated before, but it's only as powerful as the team it's against...if that makes any sense.

 

[Midnight.]

I haven't played much this metagame(been too busy) and the only thing ive noticed is the increase in toxicroak, houndoom, torterra, leafeon usage..but I'm curious what the dominate playingstyle is? Stall, offensive, Balance, Rain?

I'd say offense or offensive-balance teams are far more common (whether it dominates is one for the higher-ups to comment on). I am yet to face a true stall team this round... well maybe a couple of sandstorm teams. I'm not even seeing too much 'synergy' in teams as of recently, either. A lot of stat boosters and choiced attackers just piling pressure on teams, commonly with a Milotic and/or Venusaur thrown in for some sort of stability.

 

[shrang]

Now digressing a bit, I know I've asked this before, but I haven't been answered. When are we going to get our "UU Suspect Voter" badges for voting last round, or do they not hand those out any more??

 

[Heysup]

True, true. It's not like I can't switch in Raichu or Manectric against said moves either. I'll survive and force the bird out. Worse case Scenario... I lose a pokemon but this was also applicable to Raikou too. For starters you had a chance of being OHKO with SR and even if you DIDN'T die, your allowed one shot.

Well Raikou's not OHKOed by Fire Blast, so it's actually an 100% counter at least once (save SR + Spikes). Additionally, if you get Raikou in on an offensive team you're definitely in a good position. You really can't say the some for the other two. They just aren't as dangerous.

I believe (my opinion) that a poke should be seen as a whole.
Even though it's nominating under the defensive characteristic we should consider everything said poke can offer.
LO Milotic isn't defensive (duh), but it's still a Milotic set. If we did "ban" Milotic under the defensive characteristic, we're banning LO Milotic as well, right?

My opinion.
Do you think this opinion is nonsense, or do you "somewhat agree"?

Unfortunately I'm going to have to lean towards the former. A Pokemon should be viewed as a whole, sure, but not the way you made it out to be. If defensive Milotic is broken, we ban it because it's broken. If Milotic is only banned because it has the capability to be a decent sweeper as well as a great wall, then it isn't broken. This is my huge peeve with the reasoning used for Pokemon such as Cresselia. It had the capability to alter its set and beat almost every Pokemon in the tier, but the amount it could do with one set was nowhere near "overwhelming" or "too much". In fact, I'd say Milotic could do better with just the defensive set.

So if Milotic is nominated, it should be for the one set. This is the difference between when versatility can be used as an argument and when it can't. Crobat was broken because it was versatile within the boundaries of one set. Blaziken isn't broken because it makes a great stall breaker and Scarfer.

With that attitude we might as well ban Mismagius, because once that easily passable Registeel or Spiritomb dies than it's broken.

Mismagius after a Nasty Plot vs Torterra after a Rock Polish:

• Torterra has 422 Speed vs Missy's 339. Common Pokemon between 339 and 422: Scarf Absol, Alakazam, Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, Ambipom, Tauros, and some others.
• Torterra has exceptional bulk, especially physical. Missy has decent Special bulk but pathetic physical bulk.
• Torterra has neutrality to every priority move except the rare Ice Shard. Mismagius gets utterly wrecked by Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch.
• Torterra cannot be Pursuited.

There is basically no comparison. Mismagius does not excel the same way Torterra does. Mismagius is very dangerous because it can set up and sweep in the correct conditions, but those conditions are quite a bit more demanding than Torterra's. The major thing is that a majority of Mismagius's counters trap and OHKO it, not giving it a chance to wear them down.

I don't think have much to fear. I mean, if Heysup is going to be the only one nominating, then they probably won't end up being Suspects anyway. If he's not, well it doesn't look like there will be many nominations anyway (Apart from NO SUSPECTS). Even if one of them does become a Suspect, who's to say that they'll get an >50% vote to get them banned anyway??

Remember Franky and Dugtrio. It happens, be afraid. Vote!

It's because people know how to deal with Rain now, and the people using Rain aren't getting the cheap wins that they used to get, so they go back to tried and true teams that work every time.

Rain is only effective in unstable metagames, as I've mentioned in the previous rounds. It is impossible to prepare for shit like Raikou, Rain, and Froslass at the same time. Which is the least threatening of the three? Rain. That's why people don't bother, I guess.

 

[Thund91]

Mismagius after a Nasty Plot vs Torterra after a Rock Polish:

• Torterra has 422 Speed vs Missy's 339. Common Pokemon between 339 and 422: Scarf Absol, Alakazam, Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, Ambipom, Tauros, and some others.
• Torterra has exceptional bulk, especially physical. Missy has decent Special bulk but pathetic physical bulk.
• Torterra has neutrality to every priority move except the rare Ice Shard. Mismagius gets utterly wrecked by Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch.
• Torterra cannot be Pursuited.

There is basically no comparison. Mismagius does not excel the same way Torterra does. Mismagius is very dangerous because it can set up and sweep in the correct conditions, but those conditions are quite a bit more demanding than Torterra's. The major thing is that a majority of Mismagius's counters trap and OHKO it, not giving it a chance to wear them down.

Pretty much all of those points are nullified by the use of Substitute, which is on basically every non-bulky Missy. Not to mention that Nasty Plot gives Mismagius a shitload of power while Rock Polish only raises Torterra's speed. While its Attack stat is decent enough to cause damage it's hardly enough to be as threatening as a sweeper that can boost its attack. And the list of Torterra's counters is certainly larger than that of Mismagius. It would seem odd to nominate Torterra as a suspect when Rhyperior is just as threatening if not more so, and can set up even easier.

 

[Heysup]

Pretty much all of those points are nullified by the use of Substitute, which is on basically every non-bulky Missy. Not to mention that Nasty Plot gives Mismagius a shitload of power while Rock Polish only raises Torterra's speed. While its Attack stat is decent enough to cause damage it's hardly enough to be as threatening as a sweeper that can boost its attack. And the list of Torterra's counters is certainly larger than that of Mismagius. It would seem odd to nominate Torterra as a suspect when Rhyperior is just as threatening if not more so, and can set up even easier.

Mismagius can be stopped by so many more offensive Pokemon than Torterra. Sure, maybe Torterra is stopped by Tangrowth and Weezing among many others, but it has barely any offensive counters. Mismagius merely has Registeel really in its way defensively, but offensively it gets demolished by priority or simply faster Pokemon. You didn't address the Pursuit issue either.

As for Rhyperior, I would like to direct you to one of my previous posts:

They don't set up as easily, and Rhyperior / Aggron are not going to sweep through bulky Grass-types like Tangrowth either. The main thing that Torterra has is the ease of set up and lack of viable options to stop it. Rhyperior is pretty slow, even a Modest Scarf Venusaur can outsped and revenge kill it. Aggron is pretty squishy from the special side, so you don't even need a special Hidden Power to stop it. Blaziken and Azumarill both beat them with priority.

Torterra on the other hand forces you to use stuff like Scarf HP Ice since Ice Shard is very rare. Even Donphan's Ice Shard won't save it from being OHKOed by Wood Hammer.

This is what it comes down to for me. No matter how many defensive counters a Pokemon has, only threatening counters matter to me and Torterra doesn't really have many threatening counters.

 

[Thund91]

Mismagius can be stopped by so many more offensive Pokemon than Torterra. Sure, maybe Torterra is stopped by Tangrowth and Weezing among many others, but it has barely any offensive counters. Mismagius merely has Registeel really in its way defensively, but offensively it gets demolished by priority or simply faster Pokemon. You didn't address the Pursuit issue either.

As for Rhyperior, I would like to direct you to one of my previous posts:

This is what it comes down to for me. No matter how many defensive counters a Pokemon has, only threatening counters matter to me and Torterra doesn't really have many threatening counters.

Substitute blocks Pursuit, so Mismagius can switch out if it can't beat them one on one. After a NP boost Pursuit users like Houndoom, Drapion, and Absol will be KO'd by Mismagius before they can attack it because they're slower. And not many offensive threats will enjoy switching in on Mismagius. Alakazam hates Shadow Ball, Swellow hates Thunderbolt, and Sceptile is 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball as well. Any other significant offensive threat is slower. These Pokemon will most likely come in to revenge kill or on Substitute, meaning they can break the Sub and die but Mismagius will still be alive. I don't really see offensive threats really harming Mismagius until one of their own teammates has died to break the Sub, which puts Mismagius's team at an advantage.

And I don't get why you believe Torterra has an easier time setting up. They set up on mainly the same things (weak walls like Registeel/Regirock), but Rhyperior's Flying and Normal resist make it much easier. What can Torterra set up on on an offensive team? I don't really see anything at all. Rhyperior can use Swellow, Arcanine, and Scyther who are very common on offense to set up.

Torterra kills itself basically. I mean with the Wood Hammer and LO recoil you don't even need counters. Just let it slowly kill itself than pick off the rest with a strong priority move (like Absols Sucker Punch or CBAzu's Aqua Jet).

 

[Heysup]

Substitute blocks Pursuit, so Mismagius can switch out if it can't beat them one on one. After a NP boost Pursuit users like Houndoom, Drapion, and Absol will be KO'd by Mismagius before they can attack it because they're slower. And not many offensive threats will enjoy switching in on Mismagius. Alakazam hates Shadow Ball, Swellow hates Thunderbolt, and Sceptile is 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball as well. Any other significant offensive threat is slower. These Pokemon will most likely come in to revenge kill or on Substitute, meaning they can break the Sub and die but Mismagius will still be alive. I don't really see offensive threats really harming Mismagius until one of their own teammates has died to break the Sub, which puts Mismagius's team at an advantage.

If anything Substitute detracts from any chance Mismagius has of setting up against anything even using weak attacks. Nothing really gives Missy the chance to set up a Substitute either except switches, and these Pokemon aren't coming in on switches. Your whole argument seems to assume that Mismagius is going to have a Substitute up, and to be honest, that's not a likely scenario when something is coming in to revenge kill it.

And I don't get why you believe Torterra has an easier time setting up. They set up on mainly the same things (weak walls like Registeel/Regirock), but Rhyperior's Flying and Normal resist make it much easier. What can Torterra set up on on an offensive team? I don't really see anything at all. Rhyperior can use Swellow, Arcanine, and Scyther who are very common on offense to set up.

Fact: Earthquake is the most common move used in competitive Pokemon.

Almost certainly true: Surf is more common than both Ice Beam and Fire Blast in UU.

(I used X-Acts threads for reference to see the trends)

That's really all the reasoning I need to prove that Torterra does indeed have an easier time setting up than Rhyperior.

What does Torterra set up on vs an offensive team? Venusaur (after Leaf Storm), Rhyperior, Aggron, Uxie, Mesprit, Donphan, Hitmontop, etc.

Torterra kills itself basically. I mean with the Wood Hammer and LO recoil you don't even need counters. Just let it slowly kill itself than pick off the rest with a strong priority move (like Absols Sucker Punch or CBAzu's Aqua Jet).

After facing and using Torterra enough, you do realize that if Torterra manages to kill itself with Life Orb and Wood Hammer recoil, you've essentially lost the match because Torterra has likely taken out 3+ Pokemon.

 

[Thund91]

If anything Substitute detracts from any chance Mismagius has of setting up against anything even using weak attacks. Nothing really gives Missy the chance to set up a Substitute either except switches, and these Pokemon aren't coming in on switches. Your whole argument seems to assume that Mismagius is going to have a Substitute up, and to be honest, that's not a likely scenario when something is coming in to revenge kill it.

Alright, fine. So the opponent has to result to revenge killing my Mismagius which means that I get a free kill every time I switch it in. Seems good enough to me.

Fact: Earthquake is the most common move used in competitive Pokemon.

Almost certainly true: Surf is more common than both Ice Beam and Fire Blast in UU.

(I used X-Acts threads for reference to see the trends)

That's really all the reasoning I need to prove that Torterra does indeed have an easier time setting up than Rhyperior.

I don't see how posting statistics from half a year ago helps prove your point that Torterra sets up easier than Rhyperior, especially when Earthquake is used mainly on weak Pokemon (e.g. Registeel/Regirock that both Torterra AND Rhyperior can set up on) or on offensive Pokemon like SDVenu that neither can set up on.

And Torterra doesn't like switching in on common users of Surf anyway. It can't OHKO Slowbro so it's going to get hit twice, and good luck setting up on Milotic who is throwing out Ice Beams everywhere because of Toxicroak.

What does Torterra set up on vs an offensive team? Venusaur (after Leaf Storm), Rhyperior, Aggron, Uxie, Mesprit, Donphan, Hitmontop, etc.

Venu-You better hope that Venusaur already slept a Poke on your team or else Torterra will be incapacitated.

Aggron/Rhyperior-Since Ice Punch is very rare, I'll give you Aggron, but if Rhyperior stays in to Megahorn you're fucked.

Uxie/Mesprit-Great! Torterra got the Rock Polish! But now it's getting constantly bashed with Psychic while needing to hit both the pixies with Wood Hammer and suffering from a shitload of recoil. not to mention Mesprit can just Ice Beam off the bat if it carries it.

Donphan-It's 2HKO'd by Ice Shard, which pretty much all Donphan run. Any Donphan is safe to stay in as Ice Shard will either 2HKO or will hurt it enough that the recoil will finish Torterra off.

Hitmontop-Seeing as it's an offensive team, I'm assuming Technitop, and Torterra won't enjoy eating a Close Combat + Mach Punch before it can even fire an attack.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced that Torterra has an easier job setting up on offense than Rhyperior.

After facing and using Torterra enough, you do realize that if Torterra manages to kill itself with Life Orb and Wood Hammer recoil, you've essentially lost the match because Torterra has likely taken out 3+ Pokemon.

I love it but it's still definitely flawed. Having to suffer a shitload of recoil to remove ONE pokemon (not 3) sucks. Slowbro and Milotic have a pretty fat HP stat and it's enough that the priority user can abuse. I used to have heavily Torterra weak teams but smart switching goes a long way, especially if you have an Intimidate user.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well Raikou's not OHKOed by Fire Blast, so it's actually an 100% counter at least once (save SR + Spikes). Additionally, if you get Raikou in on an offensive team you're definitely in a good position. You really can't say the some for the other two. They just aren't as dangerous.

But SR are a common battle condition, and that alone can guarantee the OHKO. It just seems to risky. But sure, these are the advantages that Raikou holds on Raichu/Manectric.

Prediction, this is a flimsy argument imo. If you need to set up NP in order to win, and I have Moltres that can't let you set up to win, I think it's definitely a reasonable move to attempt to Fire Blast Raichu. Whereas Raikou could set up at least a Calm Mind regardless (or stall Fire Blast's PP if they've used it 2-3 times already.

I don't see how though. That's like staying in with Skarmory against Infernape and Brave Birding and predicting the Nasty plot. It's nice in theory, but it's far to risky. Besides, I've played a lot of Moltres and not one of them had the balls to stay in. (Unless they were at like 40%)

You know what Raichu can do that Raikou can't? Switch in on Roost and encore said Moltres. I mean if it wants it can stay in to Fire blast the Raichu.

If it doesn't run Toxic....what if it does run Toxic. All Milotic should run Toxic anyway.

Okay I guess. But what would you say the standard Milotic set should be?

(Surf, Recover, Toxic, Ice beam?)

The difference is that Raikou can set up Substitutes and Calm Minds against Milotic while these electric types actually lose to Milotic when they switch in. Raikou can switch in and win vs everything except Ampharos...who unfortunately cannot set up.

How do they lose? They take in damage sure, but all of them 2HKO Milotic, while Milotic 3HKO's most of them. (save Manectric) Ampharos still beats it one on one anyway.

If the bolded parts mean Milotic than I think Electric types should insulted. How does switch in and win every time if T-bolt is a 2HKO. Raichu can Nasty plot, and Manectric Specs T-bolt hurts like hell. And Ampharos can set up a sub (so that's something at least)

If the bolded part mean's Raikou then... Ah that's not to bad.

Better than nothing doesn't mean "good". And "good" is what you need for your argument to work, my friend.

Ah point taken.

 

[franky]

Torterra being a potential suspect is definitely not going to happen right now and in the near future. It seems like Heysup just threw the best physical sweeper and called it a suspect. We can't just ban happy stuff because it troubles our team, we have to prepare for these threats. Though this applies to nearly every Pokemon, Torterra is not even close to being compared to Raikou. The big difference between Torterra and Raikou is that the latter has the Speed to boot, while the former does not have the Speed to threaten many things.

We know that Rock Polish might patch up this issue somewhat but you have to consider what Torterra has to do pre-set up. Against bulkier teams, it might have more opportunities to set up Rock Polish (i.e Milotic and Slowbro). Do note though that Milotic can easily flip the table and run 56 Spe EVs to beat overzealous Torterra preparing for an easy set up. The fact of the matter is, Torterra will not fare well against bulkier teams since it will have some viable checks. It might have more set-up opportunities but it has a fare amount of difficulty muscling its way through teams built to check Pokemon instead of dishing out damage.

Against offense however, I find it difficult for Torterra to set up anything due to its low Speed. The only difference between Torterra vs offense and Torterra vs stall/bulky teams is that it has less opportunities to set up due to its low Speed but the results after set up is rewarding. Against stall, setting up is easier but the results are somewhat mediocre. In reality, Torterra can't be compared to Raikou because he does not have the Speed to threaten offensive teams. In a nutshell, Torterra's Speed is probably the only thing holding it back for being a suspect. It would be more recognized if it had say 90-100 Speed, but its not going to happen.

Edit:

I'd like to post Torterra's checks/counters here since I only saw two counters mentioned in the previous page.

Stall:

Tangrowth
Leafeon
Weezing
Hitmontop
Torterra
Arcanine (lesser extent)
Smart switching in general

Offense:

Leafeon
Sceptile
Torterra

The pool of checks in the offense category is quite small, but they are definitely viable checks. Again, I would have considered Torterra suspect but its Speed is just so depressing that is rarely has time to set-up on offensive teams. In any case though, smart offensive players might pack a back-up check in case it does set up. (i.e Scarf Rotom, Scarf Venusaur). It might sound obscure but you can't just let Torterra sweep your team easily. Scarf Rotom + Venusaur is definitely not over-centralizing and they are common sets so it really doesn't make the metagame "unhealthy".

 

[shrang]

Oh boy, a Base 100 Speed Torterra. Holy shit, that'll be like Garchomp, won't even need Rock Polish, SD + Yache would rape a lot of things. However, I do have to agree with Heysup that Torterra is actually very easy to set up due to its great bulk and resistances, but it's not Suspect worthy.

 

[ToF]

I'd just like to know how you can even nominate Torterra without nominating Venusaur first. Seems like everyone that's on the Torterra ban-wagon is just biased.

 

[Bluewind]

I didn't bother reading through the whole thing because I'm pretty sure someone has already pointed out everything I would have, but comparing Raikou, its base 115 Speed, weakness to no priority and 1 weakness only to Torterra, with its base 60(?) speed, 4x weakness to priority (even if only Donphan commonly carries it) and an whooping number of 4 weaknesses is just flawed.

 

[Heysup]

Alright, fine. So the opponent has to result to revenge killing my Mismagius which means that I get a free kill every time I switch it in. Seems good enough to me.

The point is that revenge killing Torterra is not easy. That's what makes it such a formidable sweeper. It isn't going to sweep your whole team, but it is definitely going to take out a couple Pokemon versus offense (unless you are using Scarf HP Ice).

But SR are a common battle condition, and that alone can guarantee the OHKO. It just seems to risky. But sure, these are the advantages that Raikou holds on Raichu/Manectric.

Fire Blast vs Raikou (0 HP/24 SpD): 74.5% - 87.9% - very small chance to OHKO even with SR.

Torterra being a potential suspect is definitely not going to happen right now and in the near future. It seems like Heysup just threw the best physical sweeper and called it a suspect. We can't just ban happy stuff because it troubles our team, we have to prepare for these threats. Though this applies to nearly every Pokemon, Torterra is not even close to being compared to Raikou. The big difference between Torterra and Raikou is that the latter has the Speed to boot, while the former does not have the Speed to threaten many things.

You should know it doesn't trouble my team.....lol. We've only been over it for at least 2 weeks in #wifipack.

Anyway, my comparison to Raikou is getting taken out of context but I'll address that later (when i reply to Bluewind).

I'd just like to know how you can even nominate Torterra without nominating Venusaur first. Seems like everyone that's on the Torterra ban-wagon is just biased.

Don't worry, there's no bandwagon it's just me trying to redirect this thread into productive discussion (when it was just complaining or complaining about complaining).

I didn't bother reading through the whole thing because I'm pretty sure someone has already pointed out everything I would have, but comparing Raikou, its base 115 Speed, weakness to no priority and 1 weakness only to Torterra, with its base 60(?) speed, 4x weakness to priority (even if only Donphan commonly carries it) and an whooping number of 4 weaknesses is just flawed.

I sort of wish I never made the comparison because I didn't think that it would be taken out of context so many times.

This was the issue with Raikou, you were forced to use stupid shit like Scarf Venusaur Earthquake to beat it. While Scarf HP Ice Rotom isn't as stupid as Scarf Earthquake Venusaur, it is not a hard argument to make that HP Ice Rotom is still dumb.

I did not even imply a direct comparison, I just said they require similar steps to stop after a set up which is quite obviously true.

 

[Flamewheeler]

We can't just ban happy stuff because it troubles our team, we have to prepare for these threats. Though this applies to nearly every Pokemon, Torterra is not even close to being compared to Raikou.

I'm sorry if I sound like an ass or anything, but I find this quite hilarious. Weren't you the one who started the whole Dugtrio thing? Shed shell isn't a viable option? Isn't that part of preparing? Weren't you just picking the "best trapper"? I'm sorry, but that made me lol.

And on the Torterra topic, I do find that it has a harder time setting up against offense, but it has an even harder time trying to sweep defensive teams. He just gets the short end of the stick both ways. =/ Torterra is an awesome sweeper, given the right conditions anyway, but that can be said for any and all sweepers really.

 

[Stagnant]

Lots of pointless arguments using facts that should be common sense to any decent player... up in here.

Instead, lets talk about Pokemon who are successful vs unsuccessful.

MixDoom with a physical bias Houndoom with Pursuit, Crunch, Overheat, and Sucker Punch is a new fav of mine, Pursuit being the key move of the set for hitting 'obvious' switches.

Lanturn is phenomenal all-around. I used a set with Discharge-Surf-Ice Beam-Heal Bell.

Hitmonlee (aka Hitmonstank on my team) is a beast. Nothing is more satisfying than 1-2HKOing a majority of the meta. Ghosts- and most Poison-types are threatened by Houndoom, so naturally they form decent synergy.

Hitmonchan blows. SubPunch is really powerful but in order to properly set him up you will definitely need dual screens.

Murkrow is actually quite a threat. Brave Bird-Sucker Punch-Hp Grass-Roost gives him impecable coverage. Registeel walls him hard but that is what Torterra is meant for.

Speaking of Registeel, running T-Wave on him is pretty retarded. It is very much expected of him to have it and his common switch-ins, Torterra and Rhyperior, enjoy the free turn you just gave them. So... my suggestion is to run BOTH Toxic and Thunder Wave or neither and use a Curse Set or something.

I've been using a (I forgot exact EV's) 120hp/252Spa/ 136 Spe Blastoise to good success. With moves of Surf, IceBeam, Hp Grass, Rapid Spin.

Heysup made a comment that every Milotic should run Toxic... but I find that to be far from the truth. Milo should run Surf-Ice Beam-Hp Grass in order to hit a majority of what she wall's super-effectively. Omastar, Altaria, and Arcanine just for starters.

EspyJump is a superb partner to Lo Moltres. Passing a sub or Calm Mind to Moltres is just deadly.

Baton Passing in general is a very effective strategy...

 

[capefeather]

I think that Thunder Wave is still somewhat useful on Registeel (about as useful as most other moves vying for that spot would be). You might want to force the opponent to bring in Hitmonlee/Donphan/Torterra (not RP obviously) or something. It's also nice to threaten paralysis on Fires.

 

[Bluewind]

Torterra is an awesome sweeper, given the right conditions anyway, but that can be said for any and all sweepers really.

Yessir.

@Overhazard: I guess the first five have already been discussed. Regarding Registeel, if it had 5 moveslots I'd definitely use Toxic on him, but as long as checking retarted oh so weak stuff like SD Sceptile and SD Venusaur is one of its main uses; and as long as predicting around Rhyperior and Torterra not only is an easy task but also doesn't require you to stop checking the things you should actually do I guess using TWave just isn't retarded at all.

Milotic's thing is a personal preference/coverage of team needs case, as one could have bulky Waters covered well enough to afford running Toxic over HP Grass; which is something I would definitely do.

For spinning purposes that Blastoise is obviously more effective, but can't check half the stuff it should, unless you've got them covered with something else.

CM Passing to Moltres (and Baton Pass in general) has been brought up 10 times this round already...

 

[franky]

I'm sorry if I sound like an ass or anything, but I find this quite hilarious. Weren't you the one who started the whole Dugtrio thing? Shed shell isn't a viable option? Isn't that part of preparing? Weren't you just picking the "best trapper"? I'm sorry, but that made me lol.

I wasn't ban happy -- Dugtrio was actually a viable suspect because it was a great supporter not because it was the best trapper. Being the best trapper was the not the reason why I nominated it. I nominated it because it supported x Pokemon way too easily, making their sweeps easier. The comparison between Shed Shell and using an actual check like Weezing is completely different. Using Shed Shell means that you are taking out your walls ability to actually switch into threats just for sake of checking a single Pokemon. It makes it completely unbalanced. Using someone like Weezing and actually preparing for it is completely viable since you are running a stall/balanced team.

 

[MegaKick]

Although I agree torterra is powerfull, it can't really sweep teams well simply because life orb + wood hammer wears it down quick. Stealth rock resist isn't much, since 6% isn't that much of a difference when you take 30% every time you used wood hammer. Combine that with the fact that even though he has good defenses, his lack of resistances means he will be taking some damage setting up. Venasaur, who's number one, can take an earthquake and hit back hard with power whip, energy ball, sludge bomb, or just plain sleep you. Yes, torterra's a big threat, but either he lacks power (rare bulky versions), or he gets worn down too quickly. Add in the fact that priority is everywhere, like ambipom's fake out, houndooms sucker punch, swellow's quick attack, and most of all donphan's ice shard, and he just can't sweep. However, he does work excellently at softening up the opponets team.

P.S. If it weren't for that venasaur is #1 (and drapion seems to be the most common whenever I run T-spikes, but no where when I don't <_<) T-spike teams could be a dangerous threat. I was joking around with drapion + subseed sceptile + Calm mind sub uxie (little jirachi) and whenever the opponet lacked a poisen or spinner, stalling out the opponet was super easy. Due to the rarity of steels, slapping sub + protect on every pokes grants a near automatic win. Registeel is a bitch though.

 

[Thund91]

The point is that revenge killing Torterra is not easy. That's what makes it such a formidable sweeper. It isn't going to sweep your whole team, but it is definitely going to take out a couple Pokemon versus offense (unless you are using Scarf HP Ice).

Revenge killing Torterra may be harder, but Mismagius sets up much easier. And once it sets up there isn't much that can stop it. So Torterra may be effective against offensive teams (where it has trouble setting up and can still be stopped), but Mismagius wrecks defensive teams due to its very restricted list of counters and offensive threats don't enjoy switching in on it, so offensive teams have trouble as well.

The fact of the matter is that Earthquake is undeniably the most common attack in the metagame, and Torterra can come in and set up on it. Regirock, Steelix, and even CB Rhyperior's EQ make a great opportunity to switch Torterra in, but Rhyperior gets 3HKOed at the very least by even Steelix's EQ (30.7% - 36.4%).

Except Torterra will simply be Roared out by Steelix or even worse, have to take 2 max power Gyro Balls since Steelix won't be OHKO'd by EQ if it's healthy enough.

And CBperior is more common on balanced teams, because offensive teams will hardly want their Choiced user locked into a move that so many Pokemon can set up on (Mismagius, Rotom, Moltres, etc)

Also, SD Venusaur's Power Whip vs Torterra: 53.8% - 63.4%

Good enough that with SR and LO recoil Torterra will be easily revenge killed by Sucker Punch or Arcanines Extremespeed the next turn.

Easy set up (let it sleep something else).

Not quite, as explained above.



LO Wood Hammer vs Slowbro: 85.3% - 100.5%. That's essentially a guaranteed OHKO with just Stealth Rock.

Except you have to take a hit to set up, and with that recoil you're boned. Or you can attack off the bat but then you can't set up and will easily be revenge killed.

And I'll give you Milotic I guess.

Why thank you good sir. But Torterra's handling of Slowbro and Milotic is pointless in this discussion because they're used on Stall/Balance and they won't stay in, they'll simply switch to Weezing/Leafeon/Tangrowth. No Torterra sweep there.

Why hope? I can just let it sleep something else.

True, but then the above scenario happens which I already answered.

I wasn't clear but I meant CB -______-

Well how am I supposed to know. <_<

So you're either gonna have to take 2 hits or come in on the revenge kill.

Jolly CB Aggrons Head Smash vs. 4/0 Tort = 47.1% - 55.3%

Yeah, that's a heavy chunk of damage to set up on something you resist.

CB Rhyperior's EQ vs 4/0 Tort = 40.8% - 48.3%

Not as hard as Aggron, but let's remind ourselves that Torterra has to kill Rhyperior with Wood Hammer unless it's weakened enough, so Torterra is gonna be susceptible to priority. Not to mention CB Aggron/Rhyperior shouldn't be used on offense anyway.

Donphan | Move | Ice Shard | 53.6 |

Only half the time. Set up on ones without Ice Shard or just attack anyway, especially if you have something like Aggron waiting to sweep once Donphan is gone

That's enough so that Torterra shouldn't feel comfortable setting up on Donphan.

But I'm glad you realized Torterra can't set up on the pixies (I even forgot they can set up Reflect) or Technitop.

 

[Heysup]

Guys saying "well it kills itself so it isn't broken" implies that it actually took out approximately 3 Pokemon (assuming full health or whatever). To actually kill itself, Torterra will need deal about 1000 damage, or more likely 900 damage accounting for 3 attacks worth of Life Orb recoil. It's not a very strong argument when the damage it does to itself directly means it did three times that damage to something else.

I'd stick with Thund's arguments.

I wasn't ban happy -- Dugtrio was actually a viable suspect because it was a great supporter not because it was the best trapper. Being the best trapper was the not the reason why I nominated it. I nominated it because it supported x Pokemon way too easily, making their sweeps easier. The comparison between Shed Shell and using an actual check like Weezing is completely different. Using Shed Shell means that you are taking out your walls ability to actually switch into threats just for sake of checking a single Pokemon. It makes it completely unbalanced. Using someone like Weezing and actually preparing for it is completely viable since you are running a stall/balanced team.

Not that I'd actually nominate Torterra, but I would definitely nominate Torterra before Dugtrio...

Anyway I'm kind of bored with Torterra (I'm not going to nominate it anyway), lets talk about Moltres and Milotic.

EDIT: sorry thund -____-