NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[Thund91]

Without Raikou and easy spikes, there is no one pokemon that can consistently wall-break every EV spread of a Milotic. While I agree that you should keep wallbreaking in mind when making a team, right now the central idea of team decision this round was "How can I wallbreak Milotic?" (EDIT: Using multiple pokemon sacrifices that is)

And comparing Milotic to Registeel is completely out of context considering there are countless foolproof switch-ins to Registeel that can easily set up on him because he lacks Haze.

I don't think Milotic is going to sit there and try and haze SDSceptile or SDVenu. Haze is for Pokemon who can't hit Milotic hard enough like DDFeraligatr or on slow Pokemon like CroTomb or CMSlowbro/NPKing.

Milotic shouldn't try Hazing something like an SDScyther, they hit too hard for it to handle, it's better off just attacking.

 

[Meru]

I don't think Milotic is going to sit there and try and haze SDSceptile or SDVenu. Haze is for Pokemon who can't hit Milotic hard enough like DDFeraligatr or on slow Pokemon like CroTomb or CMSlowbro/NPKing.

Milotic shouldn't try Hazing something like an SDScyther, they hit too hard for it to handle, it's better off just attacking.

Milotic makes a lot of people reconsider putting stat-uppers on their team that can't prevent the Haze. Pretty sure Feraligatr representation plummeted this round, to name one.

 

[Thund91]

Milotic makes a lot of people reconsider putting stat-uppers on their team that can't prevent the Haze. Pretty sure Feraligatr representation plummeted this round, to name one.

Feraligatr seems to be the only one. Mismagius, Alakazam, Sceptile, Venusaur, Absol, Kabutops, Toxicroak and Scyther are common stat-uppers that couldn't give 2 shits about Haze. If Milotic Hazes against any of these threats it'll just get itself killed. So yes Haze Milotic might have made DDgatr much more difficult to use but that's pretty much it.

 

[PK Gaming]

You know... If Milotic were to be banned, I honestly wouldn't care. We've got a ton of bulky water replacements (Blastoise, Slowking, Azumarill) and other pokemon that can handle the fire types.

My opinion on it? Sure it's pretty annoying to face but it's not like it's impossible to get by. Bring out the Blaziken's people? Back in the day, this pokemon was truly out of it's prime. Running a mixed or SD Ken is perfect fo taking out the behemoth. Magmortar also works (2HKO with T-bolt)

I honestly don't think Milotic will even be put up for suspect. It's got too little nominations. The jury isn't out so don't quote me on this one.


Edit: People want to nominate Moltres? It's got it's fair share of counters and checks. Raikou being it's best offensive check/counter is no reason for you to be lazy.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this. Eh, I honestly don't give a fuck anymore.
You want a check to Moltres? Run Manectric, Raichu or even Electrode! Did I say good? No. I said a check Seriously Moltres is bulky enough to take on powerful Neutral attacks from the speedier side of UU, and sometime's electric attacks are what you need to take it down.

I like Rolfkip's Rhyperior nomination.

 

[Rolf]

To clarify: When I say wall 70% of the metagame, I wasn't using the word wall very well. What I meant was pivot. Milotic alone can switch in and allow you to shift the momentum to you on:

LO Milotic, Arcanine, Moltres, Spiritomb, Rhyperior, Hitmontop, Donphan, Ambipom, Houndoom, Dugtrio, Azumarill, Scyther, Feraligatr, Drapion, Altaria, and Omastar. That's the top 35, omitting some Pokemon that really individually carry no momentum (things like Blastoise and Registeel) and pivot only, not to mention it hard counters Arcanine, Hitmontop, Donphan, Rhyperior (if you don't mind losing health), Azumarill, Altaria, and Omastar out of that list.

The way I see Pokemon is a constant struggle for momentum. You have to choose what the opponent does. BA's and kd's warstory shows this well. From the beginning through cunning prediction kd was able to keep the momentum shifted his way. He in a way chose the way bad ass had to react - he had to play somewhat conservative with a team not meant to play that way. I'm probably just stating the obvious for everyone else but whatever.
Please don't let us get stuck in this metagame forever, please.
Anyways, Milotic to me is an easy way out, a catch-all. It has the stats and the typing to shift momentum in matches just enough that you can get back on your feet and win the match under dire odds. No other Pokemon can do this as consistently as Milotic, especially because given the chance it can Recover up and do its job again and again...ck in this metagame

 

[shrang]

UU voters get the green tick badge :)

Also I posted in a nom thread for the first time just now. I don't think that there's much to say because it's quite readily apparent that everything in UU has multiple counters or at least very reliable checks.

On the topic of that, where's mine?? I voted last round, and I haven't got it yet... (Or anyone else who voted in that round by the looks of it)

 

[Bad Ass]

oh so you gain momentum now by healing as they go to their milotic counter? didn't know.

edit at below: this is the circle-jerk of "oh we ban moltres venu is broken we ban venu milo is broken we ban milo registeel is broken we ban registeel mismagius is broken" etc.

 

[anti404]

I noticed a few nominations for Venusaur by very respected battlers, and was wondering: if Venu heads to BL, would you feel differently about Milotic staying? I know during teambuilding I will sometimes look back at my team and notice that Milotic can stall out so much that I need a true hard check, which Venu does well, and would find it very difficult to even check on certain teams, if Venu was unavailable.

 

[Heysup]

Uhhh, you have it all wrong buddy. You think that Milotic is the only thing that can reliably beat Moltres? Try Regirock? Slowking? Did these pokemon just become less viable or are you trying to play up Milotic's strengths? Don't get me started on Rhyperior vs Milotic. Milotic is forced to heal each time it soaks up a hit from Rhyperior. And if I want to make sure you stay at ~30%, then I sacrifice Rhyperior while continuing to EQ.

Brb trying Regirock.

Timid Fire Blast vs 252/0 Regirock: 34.1% - 40.4%
Timid Hidden Power Grass vs 252/0 Regirock: 52.7% - 62.6%

Shit I got 2HKOed by Moltres. Fuk.

Of course I could pump up Special Defense EVs (like the analysis suggests unfortunately, but that was for a previous metagame) but then Regirock is walled by everything. It also has no recovery, even if you did pump them up to the point of uselessness Regirock will just get worn out because switching into it is so easy.

And if you've ever used or faced Slowking you would know that you're going to get absolutely fuked by Pursuiters...which should always be used with Moltres as a way to remove Ghost-types for Rapid Spin. (You should know this from using Dekzeh's team with like 3 Pursuiters -___-)

Clearly Milotic is the only "safe" route.

And Rhyperior is 100% countered by Milotic....

I was listening to this conversation in #stark the other day and I didn't really get why Milotic all of the sudden becomes "not a real counter" because it stays at 30% when it beats Rhyperior. It's not like Milotic can't come in a very significant portion of the metagame and use Recover.

It's still a counter. It still comes in and beats Rhyperior.

If I choose to sacrifice my NP Doom, your milotic is at 15%. Fuck, it's hard to take down, but jesus it does not wall 70% of the metagame. Your posts blows everything way out of fucking proportion, making it seem like Milotic is jesus. Shut up.

You sacrifice NP doom and Milotic has done it's job. You're acting like a Pokemon sacrificing itself to keep Milotic at 15% is a good thing...that's an argument for Milotic. "You need to sacrifice a Pokemon just to get it down to 15%-30% from which it can recover to full on many other Pokemon."

 

[Hooker Punch]

I don't see why people are complaining about Milotic. Maybe it's because I always run heavy stall, but Milly Vanilly just doesn't seem to work. It can't spin like Blastoise, can't threaten to sweep like the Slow-kin, or have access to good priority like Azumarill, or STAB Ice Beam/phazing like Walrein(my personal favorite Bulky Water).

The only pokemon I might consider broken at all is Altaria. Altaria can come in on Venusaur, Sceptile, Blaziken, Moltres, Arcanine, non-icebeam bulky waters, Rotom. It can run a very good cleric set, or go offensive with DDance. It's only minuses are the ice weakness(which is easily worked around), and SR-weak.

 

[dbcb]

All this check/counter stuff with moltres... the best and sure fire check to the damn thing is still Stealth Rocks. It is a lot easier to kill when it comes in at 50% at best and then loses another 10% to get off an attack.

 

[Thund91]

I don't see why people are complaining about Milotic. Maybe it's because I always run heavy stall, but Milly Vanilly just doesn't seem to work. It can't spin like Blastoise, can't threaten to sweep like the Slow-kin, or have access to good priority like Azumarill, or STAB Ice Beam/phazing like Walrein(my personal favorite Bulky Water).

The only pokemon I might consider broken at all is Altaria. Altaria can come in on Venusaur, Sceptile, Blaziken, Moltres, Arcanine, non-icebeam bulky waters, Rotom. It can run a very good cleric set, or go offensive with DDance. It's only minuses are the ice weakness(which is easily worked around), and SR-weak.

Ok yeah I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous. Torterra and Altaria, what's next? Gardevoir? Everyone seems to be banhappy.

 

[Ekanselttar]

The only pokémon I might consider broken at all is Gardevoir. Gardevoir can come in on Special Venusaur, Sceptile, Blaziken, Moltres, all Flash Fire pokes, non-Shadow Ball Alakazam, Rotom, and Hitmontop. It can run a very good support set, dual status, or go offensive with Calm Mind. Its only weaknesses are Bug and Ghost (which can be worked around with rocks and a pursuiter), and Dark-weak.

 

[Thund91]

Oy vey.

I hope you're joking.

 

[jamashawalker]

Oy vey.

I hope you're joking.

lol this is what happens when you dont have an OBVIOUS finger to point in the metagame..there's no bad guy to look at and judge...for shits and giggles we should all just nominte pokes that give our standard teams problems hahaha

 

[Alexa888]

lol this is what happens when you dont have an OBVIOUS finger to point in the metagame..there's no bad guy to look at and judge...for shits and giggles we should all just nominte pokes that give our standard teams problems hahaha

I nominate Rotom - for shiggles
Darn WoW...

 

[IronBullet]

lol this is what happens when you dont have an OBVIOUS finger to point in the metagame..there's no bad guy to look at and judge...for shits and giggles we should all just nominte pokes that give our standard teams problems hahaha

Yeah that's pretty much why this metagame is so balanced and diverse....this has been said again and again but Milotic is really the necessary evil that holds the tier together. Pokemon like Moltres and Rhyperior have not jumped on the train to BL just because of this behemoth.

 

[Midnight.]

So, franky has put up Venusaur for nomination. What are people's thoughts on this? I for one hate facing Venusaur, for the reasons stated in franky's post. To me, switching in on Venusaur is like switching in on Salamance, albeit a defensive version. I mean, how many Pokemon can 'safely' switch in on Venusaur, especially when you don't know what set it is running? The leech seed set is definitely the one that gives me the most problems, since you tend to sac something to take the sleep, and then a free leech seed is open so even a fire-type is going to get boned to some degree. Grass-types can't do shit due to Sludge Bomb. Crazy times.

That said, I don't know if I can bring myself to nominate Venu, since I can't help but think it is going in line with what has been said for the last two or so pages: it feels like I/we are just targeting the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, and every time we knock something off, another will rise to take its place. Look at Milotic being pulled into the firing line. Losing Venusaur would only exacerbate the issue. Anyway, thoughts on Venusaur?

Also, is it just me, or has Registeel vanished? I didn't see a single one on the ladder today. Granted I wasn't on there flat-out, but I usually run into a lot more than... zero.

 

[IronBullet]

Venusaur is pretty much one of the most diverse Pokemon in the tier, and all of its sets are incredibly effective. Its counters are varied, such as Moltres and Scyther for the SD set and Registeel for the special and mixed sets. One wrong prediction could easily see you one Pokemon down. And even if you have the right counter for the right set, there is always the omnipresent Sleep Powder which effectively neutralizes the threat it poses to Venusaur. Sleep Powder is practically sets it head and shoulders above other sweepers. The ability to not get forced out by a counter, but actually put it to sleep and continue sweeping is priceless. IMO it takes very clever switching to effectively control Venusaur, but if you do it well, it's a mere annoyance.

 

[Delko]

There are a lot of pokemon (eg. Tangrowth, Leafeon, Chansey, ...) that can switch safely into Venusaur if you just know what set it is running. Also unlike Salamence (as you compared Venusaur with) Venusaur is rather slowish. 80 base speed is outsped by a lot even in UU.

 

[Midnight.]

There are a lot of pokemon (eg. Tangrowth, Leafeon, Chansey, ...) that can switch safely into Venusaur if you just know what set it is running.

That is the thing. You have to dip your toe into the water first to see which set it is running. On a side note, I can count the number of times I have seen the physical set this round on one hand, so the grass-types are mostly out. Then again, Chansey isn't a great switch-in since if it is the physical set, bye-bye Chansey.

Also unlike Salamence (as you compared Venusaur with) Venusaur is rather slowish. 80 base speed is outsped by a lot even in UU.

That is why I said a defensive variant. I wasn't talking about the sweeping power of Venusaur, but it's ability to tear at the fabric of a team until a fully-fledged hole appears.

One of the only things that can really handle Venusaur properly is Venusaur haha. Sure it can be played around, but its versatility makes it a nightmare initially. I'm sunning Steelix as my scout at the moment.

 

[Delko]

The only thing that can really handle Venusaur properly is Venusaur haha.

Funny thing is that I indeed use Venusaur to counter an opposing one. ^^

 

[Conflict]

Finnaly freakin Venusaur attains some attention. I really like the Venu-nominations (well-written guys) and can only support this nomination.

Even in the last round i found myself struggling more often against Venusaur then against some of the suspects.
Although i dont know if Venusaur is really broken and not only a "very strong" Poke.

I can also understandf where the Rhyperior nominations came from, its indeed very powerful, exspecially when you can predict right with (CB-)Perior.

I honestly cant agree to the Milotic nominations right now though. Sure Milotic is hard to bring down, but on the other hand she can be used for some Set-Ups (Entry Hazards, Grasstype-Setupper) and cant counter all of the mentioned threats at one time (different sets with different roles).
Milotic is a bitch to kill exspecially for Stall teams though but Clefable is one tough cookie too....

 

[shrang]

I really hope the Venusaur nominations are just an attempt to get some votes going, because it's probably one the most "not broken" Pokemon in the tier. Every set can easily be played around, and it's just a matter of "learn to predict".

 

[Conflict]

But what is your initial Switch-In against Venusaur?

Chansey? Power Whip and SD.
Arcanine? Specs/LO-Sludgebomb, Sleep Powder
Altaria? SD with Double Edge, Sleep Powder.
Rotom? Takes a huge, HUGE chunk from LO-Powerwhip, Leafstorm, Sludgebomb.
Weezing? Sleep Powder.
Tangrowth, Leafon? Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder.
Moltres? Slugebomb, Sleep Powder.
Registeel? SD+EQ, Sleep Powder.

So what can you predict? The first and sometimes even the 2nd or 3rd switch-in you have to guess what attack Venusaur will use....

Oh and i know how to predict and i think Eo, Bad Ass and franky know it too.