you guys dont understand what heysup is saying. Once a stall team gets weakened, it can be swept by a fast a sweeper, such as specs typhlosion and espion (if chansey is weakened) swellow/ drapion if your steel is weakened, etc. With crobat, once your team is weakened and they use that sweeper to try and sweep, it stops after killing one pokemon (or after using SD or Calm mind) and has to switch out. Then it has to switch in again later, taking more spikes/SR damage and most likely wont be able to sweep anymore.
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np: UU - Here It Goes Again
- Thread starter Caelum
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Um that is the case with any team. You're basically saying "once a counter to Pokemon X is weakened Pokemon X can sweep the opposing team." Not such a great argument at all. Stall thrives on keeping all of its members at reasonable health, meaning this statement is easier said than done.
Have you ever used stall? Because if you haven't, stop goddamn talking. You have no idea what you're talking about here. Crobat is a crutch check for OFFENSE. If anything, it sucks ass for stall. I played heavy stall for a very long time with an extremely effective team, and often Crobat was either the first mon to die (because it was the least useful), or the last to die (because I never sent it in on anything). "Checks" are only good for offense, which can afford to give up a mon in order to stop an opponent's sweep. When you talk about a stall team, it usually falls the fuck apart as soon as a mon dies, simply because Stall relies on having full-blown counters to every Pokemon in the metagame.
tl;dr: Heysup has no idea how stall works.
If they have to sacrifice a Pokemon on a stall team, that means they obviously don't have coverage in one area, which normally means they've already lost one, meaning a strategic sacrifice would be in order. It also means it's probably near the end of the game, so Crobat will probably be able to sweep or shut down most of the opposing team.
But Swellow can't do anything earlier in the game, nor can it take a hit from damn near anything. Crobat can, plus he was the best possible Shaymin counter who was one of the better wallbreakers.
Out of about 12-13 separate teams I've faced, Registeel has been on roughly half of them.
Steelix is getting rarer though, as he was more of a check to Honchkrow and Crobat.
I want to know why it is necessary to play for a month with the suspects removed before voting. The OP says that this is so we can "experience a different metagame" but what does experiencing a different metagame have to do at all with whether or not the suspects were broken?
It seems to me that this system is encouraging people to vote based which metagame they prefer, rather than if they truly felt the suspects were broken.
It seems to me that this system is encouraging people to vote based which metagame they prefer, rather than if they truly felt the suspects were broken.
Some teams design things so that they can open up holes in a defense to allow another pokemon to sweep. With Crobat waiting in the wings on a stall team that's not really a worry. I don't get how that's hard to understand.
And go ahead and try to tell me that I don't understand how stall works.
I ran a Sub/BB/WW/Roost Crobat on a "quick stall" team and it was consistently the MVP. It can counter a shitload of threats while at the same time checking anything that slipped past your defenses. Crobat was amazing for stall.
And go ahead and try to tell me that I don't understand how stall works.
I ran a Sub/BB/WW/Roost Crobat on a "quick stall" team and it was consistently the MVP. It can counter a shitload of threats while at the same time checking anything that slipped past your defenses. Crobat was amazing for stall.
Isn't that the whole idea, to establish a better metagame, i.e. one which people find more enjoyable?
As far as Crobat + Stall goes, keep in mind that EUM was #1 for basically the entirety of Crobat's reign and IIRC he used Shufflebat on his stall team. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.
I'm going to have to side with those saying that Crobat was an excellent addition to a stall team and will be sorely missed on such teams. While it is indeed true that stall teams do not "rely" on checking certain threats to win, Crobat was a unique exception to the rule in that it was a Pokemon that could be used defensively while still imbuing its team with an offensive characterstic.
In other words, by using Crobat, a stall team gained the ability to check threats without sacrificing much defensively, if anything at all.
As evidenced by the use of Deoxys-E on Suspect-ladder stall teams to sweep opposing teams that had been worn down, saving a sweeper to "clean up" near the end of the match is certainly a viable tactic for stall teams to employ, and Crobat was the perfect candidate for such a strategy. It has been both harder to run stall and easier to defeat it since Crobat disappeared, in my opinion.
Of course, this does not mean that stall is suddenly unplayable; stall teams simply need to prepare far more extensively for key threats and play more cautiously than before. Stall is still effective, but it will miss Crobat.
In other words, by using Crobat, a stall team gained the ability to check threats without sacrificing much defensively, if anything at all.
As evidenced by the use of Deoxys-E on Suspect-ladder stall teams to sweep opposing teams that had been worn down, saving a sweeper to "clean up" near the end of the match is certainly a viable tactic for stall teams to employ, and Crobat was the perfect candidate for such a strategy. It has been both harder to run stall and easier to defeat it since Crobat disappeared, in my opinion.
Of course, this does not mean that stall is suddenly unplayable; stall teams simply need to prepare far more extensively for key threats and play more cautiously than before. Stall is still effective, but it will miss Crobat.
im using a bulky offense team of sorts, and am 1600 atm. it has 2 'bulky' life orb sweepers, another bulky powerhouse, spiker, and set up sweeper. and im still standing by regirock as possibly the best lead ever. gosh, ive hit so many ambipoms and ruined them for the whole match. and yanmegas. and lrcanines. and set up sr on uxe, stone edge twice, and explode.
bulky waters like slowbro and milotic are extremely valuable since we lost such a great azumarill check in shaymin. subpunch azu has been such a beast so far for me, and the priority + mismagius check that it offers is just way to good to pass up. it is surprisingly bulky, and 101 subs are so underrated. i run no mix sweepers and my 2 lo users are pure special, yet stall has given me no trouble...my spiker, omastar, is just major dead weight. my team benifits from spikes, but in this metagame omastar isnt any good, bar rd sweeper ones. overall i really dont mind who comes back. as tof said, this metagame is much more prediction and double switch based-and that's fine by me.
edit: on the topic of stall, crobat is sorely missed. stuff that didnt touch stall (lo roserade, leech seed spd roserade, etc) because it was checked by crobat can now sweep once their counter has taken some sr and spikes due to being able to beat their true counter ie lo roserade and chansey. fast, frail sweepers (MISMAGIUS ESPEON) are loving this metagame. in fact, if this continues i may have to just nominate mismagius. she is really hard to stop, and even regi[steel/rock] can eat a +0 hp fight once or twice and sr and then be forced out and do it again, until missy just sweeps. subcm missy + subpunch azu is so deadly right now, only thing i can think of that stops it dead cold is like defensive perish song altaria...
bulky waters like slowbro and milotic are extremely valuable since we lost such a great azumarill check in shaymin. subpunch azu has been such a beast so far for me, and the priority + mismagius check that it offers is just way to good to pass up. it is surprisingly bulky, and 101 subs are so underrated. i run no mix sweepers and my 2 lo users are pure special, yet stall has given me no trouble...my spiker, omastar, is just major dead weight. my team benifits from spikes, but in this metagame omastar isnt any good, bar rd sweeper ones. overall i really dont mind who comes back. as tof said, this metagame is much more prediction and double switch based-and that's fine by me.
edit: on the topic of stall, crobat is sorely missed. stuff that didnt touch stall (lo roserade, leech seed spd roserade, etc) because it was checked by crobat can now sweep once their counter has taken some sr and spikes due to being able to beat their true counter ie lo roserade and chansey. fast, frail sweepers (MISMAGIUS ESPEON) are loving this metagame. in fact, if this continues i may have to just nominate mismagius. she is really hard to stop, and even regi[steel/rock] can eat a +0 hp fight once or twice and sr and then be forced out and do it again, until missy just sweeps. subcm missy + subpunch azu is so deadly right now, only thing i can think of that stops it dead cold is like defensive perish song altaria...
This is Pokemon, not chess. Sometimes something unexpected happens or you get unlucky, these things can easily open up a hole in even the best made stall team. In such a situation, Crobat could easily check a lot of the metagame to help cover your team in the event that something that was nasty plotting in your face either crit you or froze you or something. And ignoring his ability to check things with brave bird and +++speed, he can still do an amazing job on a stall team even if something doesn't go wrong. With things like taunt/sub/whirlwind he can cause a lot of switches and prevent a lot of things from setting up. He countered a lot of things while being very durable (a good stall pokemon, in other words).
I very rarely switch out of Azumarills, they will set up a sub over my dead bloated corpse
I very rarely switch out of Azumarills, they will set up a sub over my dead bloated corpse
I too ran a shufflebat on my stall team before the suspects were removed, and it was fantastic. With Crobat gone, I was looking for a candidate that can fill a similar role, and this is what I came up with:
Yanmega(M)@Leftovers
Nature:Timid
Ability:Speed Boost
Ev's:248Hp/180Def/80Spe
-Substitute/Protect
-Roost
-Whirlwind
-Air Slash/Bug Buzz
Now, I know it might look odd, but it's been quite good on my team. This is obviously tailored for a stall team. Once entry hazards are up this particular Yanmega is a beast. Yanmega causes tons of switches so Whirlwind that Chansey/Registeel away and rack up that damage. Toxic Spikes support is essential so you can outstall walls with recovery. (Rest is annoying) The great thing about Yanmega is that the most used spinner, Hitmontop, is weak to it's STAB. So if you have a Ghost (Blastoise/Cloyster can't really deal with them) then you can pretty much guarantee that hazards stay up. SR has never been a problem for me because I run foresight Top. Air Slash is used for the above reason (top) as well as the flinch rate, but Bug Buzz is also useful to hit certain threats like Slowbro. Protect can be used in place of Sub to scout status while also helping you gain a speed boost to help revenge kill a faster sweeeper. (for example, Swellow)
The HP ev's allow you to switch into SR twice. Timid with 80 speed ev's allows you to outspeed Neautral natured base 85's like Toxicroak who with Crobat gone can be a pain for stall teams to handle. It also outspeeds most Blaziken that don't run max speed. You can aim for higher speed ev's, I just use this for my team. Since this Yanmega is meant to help with faster threats to a stall team you can go higher. The rest was put into defence to help take hits. Yanmega can set up a sub on Registeel where Ice Punch is absent and whirlwind it away.
I've also thought about using Tinted Lens to hit Steels harder but speed boost has been more helpful overall.
Well there it is. Opinions? I know it's an eccentric set but it has proved useful.
Nature:Timid
Ability:Speed Boost
Ev's:248Hp/180Def/80Spe
-Substitute/Protect
-Roost
-Whirlwind
-Air Slash/Bug Buzz
Now, I know it might look odd, but it's been quite good on my team. This is obviously tailored for a stall team. Once entry hazards are up this particular Yanmega is a beast. Yanmega causes tons of switches so Whirlwind that Chansey/Registeel away and rack up that damage. Toxic Spikes support is essential so you can outstall walls with recovery. (Rest is annoying) The great thing about Yanmega is that the most used spinner, Hitmontop, is weak to it's STAB. So if you have a Ghost (Blastoise/Cloyster can't really deal with them) then you can pretty much guarantee that hazards stay up. SR has never been a problem for me because I run foresight Top. Air Slash is used for the above reason (top) as well as the flinch rate, but Bug Buzz is also useful to hit certain threats like Slowbro. Protect can be used in place of Sub to scout status while also helping you gain a speed boost to help revenge kill a faster sweeeper. (for example, Swellow)
The HP ev's allow you to switch into SR twice. Timid with 80 speed ev's allows you to outspeed Neautral natured base 85's like Toxicroak who with Crobat gone can be a pain for stall teams to handle. It also outspeeds most Blaziken that don't run max speed. You can aim for higher speed ev's, I just use this for my team. Since this Yanmega is meant to help with faster threats to a stall team you can go higher. The rest was put into defence to help take hits. Yanmega can set up a sub on Registeel where Ice Punch is absent and whirlwind it away.
I've also thought about using Tinted Lens to hit Steels harder but speed boost has been more helpful overall.
Well there it is. Opinions? I know it's an eccentric set but it has proved useful.
No. Smogon's philosophy is as few bans as possible, we can't just ban things because we want to. we only ban things if they are truly broken
I agree with this. For example, I'm sure that many people would say that an OU metagame without Scizor would be more enjoyable, but there's no real reason to ban Scizor besides that, when it comes right down to it. Besides, "enjoyable" is a subjective term anyway, whereas something such as "level of brokenness" can be objectively determined given standards such as the three characteristics we have for tier determination.
Just my two cents.
The point of testing a suspect-less metagame is to verify whether some of the objective reasons behind them being nominated in the first place were correct or not. It is not to see which metagame is better - it's to see if the suspect truly did what they did to deserve getting banned. If we could tell that when they were around, there wouldn't be a step 2 - they'd be banned on the spot.
Positives of Suspects missing:
1) Lead pokemon have varied greatly. The five most common UU leads in May were Crobat, Uxie, Ambipom, Rosearde, and Yanmega. With the removal of Crobat I've seen a lot more Arcanine, Moltres, and Omastar leads. Furthermore, more than 1 out of every 10 teams used Crobat as a lead in May. From my recent experience, I would say Ambipom has been the most common, yet it has not come close to 10%.
2) Physical wall choices have become more varied. What used to be purely Regirock, Registeel, and Steelix has evolved to include Slowbro, Claydol, and Weezing much more often.
3) Pokemon requiring set-up have become more common. Curse, Calm Mind, Sub-seed all seem to be returning as 130 base speed taunt is gone. Shaymin's dismissal allows Sub-seed to prosper and removes one of the largest offensive threats to setting up.
4) Fighting type pokemon are more prevalent. Due to Crobat's 4X resist to fighting moves, Fighting types were at a severe disadvantage. Prior to Crobat's dismissal you saw Foresight Hitmontop and few other fighting types. Without crobat, the other hitmons, hariyama, and Toxicroak appear to be far more common.
Negatives of Suspects missing:
1) Pure offense and Sweepers lack as many checks. Swellow with Quick Attack, Absol with Sucker Punch, and the various Choice Scarfers available do a decent job of taking care of runaway Blazikens. However, Espeon, Mismagius and Spiritomb are running wild as they have the ability to calm mind more effectively. Curse Umbreon lacks anything that can threaten it effectively. Nasty Plot/Swords Dance pokemon, such as Houndoom and Drapion, have less to worry about as they can outspeed the fast majority of the metagame.
2) Stall teams lack a way to deal with wall breakers. Blaziken and Nidoking are much more effective than previously as they lack Crobat's threatening presence. Furthermore, neither needs to carry a Choice Scarf anymore, which greatly increases their effectiveness.
3) Weather Teams are becoming too prevalent. Shaymin and Crobat combined as an effective check to Rain teams, while Crobat and Honchkrow took care of Sun teams. Since their dismissal, almost 20% of the teams I've seen have been either Rain or Sun based.
- Most of the Pros and Cons are only effects of Shaymin or Crobat missing. Honchkrow's dismissal has done little other than exchange Honchkrow for Absol. However, it has removed a major problem for Sun teams.
1) Lead pokemon have varied greatly. The five most common UU leads in May were Crobat, Uxie, Ambipom, Rosearde, and Yanmega. With the removal of Crobat I've seen a lot more Arcanine, Moltres, and Omastar leads. Furthermore, more than 1 out of every 10 teams used Crobat as a lead in May. From my recent experience, I would say Ambipom has been the most common, yet it has not come close to 10%.
2) Physical wall choices have become more varied. What used to be purely Regirock, Registeel, and Steelix has evolved to include Slowbro, Claydol, and Weezing much more often.
3) Pokemon requiring set-up have become more common. Curse, Calm Mind, Sub-seed all seem to be returning as 130 base speed taunt is gone. Shaymin's dismissal allows Sub-seed to prosper and removes one of the largest offensive threats to setting up.
4) Fighting type pokemon are more prevalent. Due to Crobat's 4X resist to fighting moves, Fighting types were at a severe disadvantage. Prior to Crobat's dismissal you saw Foresight Hitmontop and few other fighting types. Without crobat, the other hitmons, hariyama, and Toxicroak appear to be far more common.
Negatives of Suspects missing:
1) Pure offense and Sweepers lack as many checks. Swellow with Quick Attack, Absol with Sucker Punch, and the various Choice Scarfers available do a decent job of taking care of runaway Blazikens. However, Espeon, Mismagius and Spiritomb are running wild as they have the ability to calm mind more effectively. Curse Umbreon lacks anything that can threaten it effectively. Nasty Plot/Swords Dance pokemon, such as Houndoom and Drapion, have less to worry about as they can outspeed the fast majority of the metagame.
2) Stall teams lack a way to deal with wall breakers. Blaziken and Nidoking are much more effective than previously as they lack Crobat's threatening presence. Furthermore, neither needs to carry a Choice Scarf anymore, which greatly increases their effectiveness.
3) Weather Teams are becoming too prevalent. Shaymin and Crobat combined as an effective check to Rain teams, while Crobat and Honchkrow took care of Sun teams. Since their dismissal, almost 20% of the teams I've seen have been either Rain or Sun based.
- Most of the Pros and Cons are only effects of Shaymin or Crobat missing. Honchkrow's dismissal has done little other than exchange Honchkrow for Absol. However, it has removed a major problem for Sun teams.
This metagame needs more Absol w/ or w/o Swords Dance. Just a simple 4 Attacks + Life Orb set just rips everything apart. Absol provides a nice check on Rain Dance team which is really dominant without a proper check. Absol also provides a nice wall breaker, SD or not it can still wreck things with Life Orb.
im at 1600 and bad ass is completely right, azumarill and mismagius are incredible in this new metagame. IM going to seee how rain dance fairs in this metagame since surprisingly, i haven't seen one. sub seed roserade came back along with multiple scarf blazikens. (LO is still the dominant one though.) I think yanmega is incredibly annoying but easily dealt with. Im glad most people waste it as a lead. I want to see more RP torterras, they can really destroy some key walls and wreak havoc.
ALl in all, the metagame is heavy on balanced teams with a few stall teams. Offense is out there, just haven't come across many.
ALl in all, the metagame is heavy on balanced teams with a few stall teams. Offense is out there, just haven't come across many.
Jolly Rock Polish Rhydon is actually really good in this metagame. It's easy to hit 192 Speed, which translates into outspeeding all non-scarfers other than Electrode. Furthermore, there's a shitload of Ambipom and Swellow right now, which means that it's extremely easy to set up. EQ/SE/Megahorn pounds offensive and balanced teams into the dust right now, and it's just a solid Pokemon through and through.
Alternately, run Substitute Rhydon. It forces switches like a charm, and will usually net a kill every time it comes out against Swellow or Ambipom and gets up a sub. Rhydon takes adcantage of a lot of stuff that Crobat made obsolete, and is great against unprotected teams.
Alternately, run Substitute Rhydon. It forces switches like a charm, and will usually net a kill every time it comes out against Swellow or Ambipom and gets up a sub. Rhydon takes adcantage of a lot of stuff that Crobat made obsolete, and is great against unprotected teams.
Sub Rhydon is fun. I was never able to pull off too many RP sweeps with it, though. Most offense teams have one or more of Azumarill, Blaziken and a Scarfer.
I like Azumarill, but it seems to have move slot syndrome. I wish I could run Sub/Toxic/Focus Punch/Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Ice Punch, but I can't, and if I lose any of those six moves I'm losing important coverage on something or other. I prefer the CB set since you can literally just pick Double-Edge or Waterfall and have, at worst, a 50% chance of dealing with whatever comes in. Even Slowbro can be realistically killed on the switch by two consecutive Double-Edges. It's also a shame that there's so much priority and that Belly Drum + Aqua Jet is illegal, if either of those facts weren't true, Belly Drum Azumarill would eat the metagame alive. I still want to try it if only to see what it does to a stall team which lacks any priority.
I like Azumarill, but it seems to have move slot syndrome. I wish I could run Sub/Toxic/Focus Punch/Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Ice Punch, but I can't, and if I lose any of those six moves I'm losing important coverage on something or other. I prefer the CB set since you can literally just pick Double-Edge or Waterfall and have, at worst, a 50% chance of dealing with whatever comes in. Even Slowbro can be realistically killed on the switch by two consecutive Double-Edges. It's also a shame that there's so much priority and that Belly Drum + Aqua Jet is illegal, if either of those facts weren't true, Belly Drum Azumarill would eat the metagame alive. I still want to try it if only to see what it does to a stall team which lacks any priority.
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