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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Too true. Hitmontop can even blow away said spikes with Rapid spin which is always cool.
Alright everyone, good luck in the smogon tour.
If your opponent gets Spikes up, any sweeper can have their way with you. Without Spikes support, Moltres is no more broken than something like Arcanine or Houndoom, both of whom have Flash Fire and better tools for sweeping (Extremespeed and Nasty Plot respectively). If you can't remove the Spikes or keep the momentum of the match on your side, then you just need to revamp your strategy.
Hey I never once complained about Moltres.
But I get your point. The main question here was Stone edge or Rapid spin but rapid spin seems better now.
The extra power that Moltres has with 125 base special attack over Houndoom's 110 base and Arcanine's 110 base attack, coupled with a secondary STAB over Arcanine to hit certain "counters/checks" means that Moltres can power through its obstacles much more easily than both Arcanine and Houndoom. Looking at common counters/checks to Moltres, we have Chansey, Milotic, Regirock, and Altaria. With a layer of spikes and Stealth Rock up, these counters suddenly become very shaky. Looking at common counters/checks to Arcanine, we have Milotic, Blastoise, Regirock, Rhyperior, Altaria. Even with a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock, Arcanine still has a bit of trouble getting through these pokemon, whereas Moltres can easily tear apart Milotic, Regirock, and Altaria with residual damage. Some calculations:
Naive "Morning Glory" Life Orb Arcanine Hidden Power Grass vs. standard bulky water Milotic: 21.4% - 25.4%
This will never reach a 2HKO with a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock stripping off 25% on the switch. I'm using this set because very little Arcanine ran special attack EVs and most ran a Jolly or Adamant nature in January.
Same Arcanine Hidden Power Grass vs. standard Regirock: 26.9% - 31.9%
vs. 136 HP Rhyperior: 79.3% - 93.3%
One of the few cases where Spikes will help greatly.
Extremespeed vs. defensive Calm Altaria set: 25.4% - 29.9%
Can't 2HKO.
I guess Arcanine can effectively run sets like Specs and Band that allow it to power through its counters better, but the statistics show that hardly any Arcanine are running these sets.
+2 Timid Nasty Plot Life Orb Houndoom using Dark Pulse vs. bulky water Milotic: 63.4% - 74.8%
Houdoom just barely misses the KO with one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock.
Same Houndoom vs. Regirock: 61% - 72%
Same Houndoom vs. defensive Calm Altaria set: 70.3% - 83.1%
Here's a nice calc for Houdoom. With Stealth Rock Altaria has a good chance of going down.
Plus Houndoom also has to deal with bullshit like Mach Punch Top and Hariyama, both of whom Moltres doesn't give a shit about. Houndoom must also deal with priority moves stopping its sweep, whereas Moltres can take Extremespeeds, Mach Punches, Vacuum Waves, and play around with Sucker Punchers a bit more easily than Houndoom.
Modest Life Orb Moltres using Air Slash vs. bulky water Milotic: 35.9% - 42.2%
Using Hidden Power Grass: 44.8% - 52.9%
The more common Modest set in January is able to easily take down Milotic with Air Slash and Hidden Power Grass.
Same Moltres using Hidden Power Grass vs. Regirock: 43.4% - 51.1%
A bit harder because Moltres likes to use a STAB move on switches. Fire Blast can deal 27.5% - 32.4% to tank Regirock.
Same Moltres using Air Slash vs. defensive Calm Altaria: 31.4% - 37.3%
Altaria has a good chance of surviving, but it can't do much back.
Basically, Arcanine and Houndoom are in no way comparable to Moltres in terms of wall breaking/sweeping power.
Man, I completely forgot about the tour. I might have been able to do it, too. Oh, well.
Also, if last test was any indication, the ratings are being reset entirely.
Also, if last test was any indication, the ratings are being reset entirely.
Lol onemissstepandyou'llwindupwithdeadhoundoomduetofraildefenses.
See, I can do it to. But I actually agree with SJCrew, Moltres is far to over hyped.
Dude, if I see Arcanine come in on my Registeel, I'm 100% sure it'll Flare Blitz because it can't afford to overpredict.
Besides, Moltres's defenses aren't much better at 90/90/85 than Arcanine's at 90/80/80, especially when you consider Arcanine isn't losing half its health every time it switches in. To put things in perspective, you're basically forced to carry a spinner to let it get in and out safely, forced to decide between attacking or recuperating the loss from the hazards, and forced to stack Spikes in order to use it effectively. That's way too much support for something so many people suspect might be broken.
I don't understand why it's so hyped either when it requires an assload of support to even do anything when there are other UU sweepers that can take advantage of those options as well, probably even better.
Besides, Moltres's defenses aren't much better at 90/90/85 than Arcanine's at 90/80/80, especially when you consider Arcanine isn't losing half its health every time it switches in. To put things in perspective, you're basically forced to carry a spinner to let it get in and out safely, forced to decide between attacking or recuperating the loss from the hazards, and forced to stack Spikes in order to use it effectively. That's way too much support for something so many people suspect might be broken.
I don't understand why it's so hyped either when it requires an assload of support to even do anything when there are other UU sweepers that can take advantage of those options as well, probably even better.
Probably because the only other Special sweeper that can hit that hard right off the bat is Alakazam, and it's STAB is much worse. Fire is an excellent STAB while Psychic is just meh, especially since it has an immunity. Not to mention Alakazam has to rely on the 70% accuracy Focus Blast to muscle through its counters, while Moltres has access to better moves to sweep with. Alakazam is also more susceptible to priority. If Focus Blast actually had 90+ accuracy i'd actually consider Zam somewhat broken because the sub + 3 sets is already able to rip through teams. But i'm really questioning if Spikes really is the culprit behind Moltres' suspect status. Is Alakazam broken with Spikes? Arcanine? Sceptile? I would probably say no, which means that if Moltres is the only sweeper able to be broken with Spikes support, it has to be more about Moltres then Spikes.
It's not, it's just receiving way too much attention from a combination of the Froslass controversy and people abusing the suspect process to complain about everything their team has a problem with. If you get Spikes set up on you, can't spin them out, and don't have Milotic, Azumarrill, Chansey, or something with Flash Fire on your team, then that's your fault.
Raikou could sweep teams twice as easily with that much support and it's not banned atm, nor does it look like it will be. Same for Aggron, Rhyperior, Nidoking, and others. We can all agree that none of them are close to broken and from that point of view, relying on superfluous entry hazards to cry broken on everything you don't like is complete folly.
Its not like all the UU players gathered up one day and picked out Moltres as the only pokemon broken with Spikes. There's something about it that outshines all the others. I actually had a team that would attempt a Raikou sweep and it's not as easy as you make it. Raikou has trouble with Steelix, Registeel, Chansey, and others depending on the Hidden Power. Not to mention that unless you want to run Specs, Raikou needs to set up Calm Mind to be effective, while Moltres can just unleash attacks right from the start.
When most UU players confine themselves to one style of play and a primary core of team members, it's natural they encounter the same results. Stall teams have a problem with Moltres because they're likely to set up as well as get set up on, leaving plenty of room for Moltres to come in and ruin it by being faster than everything and abusing its high offensive power.
The main issue is the amount of setup required for it to reach full potential, which sometimes can't even be mustered through the heat of battle. The first thing it has to deal with is Stealth Rock. Losing 50% every turn is no joke and a severe handicap for an offensive Pokemon under an extremely common battle condition. If you want it to hit hard and get out when it needs to, it'll require Rapid Spin support to get back in, a role most commonly assigned to Donphan or Hitmontop. Then you need to get Spikes up to make sure it gets those dire 2HKOs, which requires Froslass. That's three solid team members required for one Pokemon to do a simple job.
What did Gallade, Honchkrow, and Porygon-Z require? Absolutely nothing. They were deemed BL via solely their own offensive merits and fit the Offensive Characteristics required for an Uber.
The main issue is the amount of setup required for it to reach full potential, which sometimes can't even be mustered through the heat of battle. The first thing it has to deal with is Stealth Rock. Losing 50% every turn is no joke and a severe handicap for an offensive Pokemon under an extremely common battle condition. If you want it to hit hard and get out when it needs to, it'll require Rapid Spin support to get back in, a role most commonly assigned to Donphan or Hitmontop. Then you need to get Spikes up to make sure it gets those dire 2HKOs, which requires Froslass. That's three solid team members required for one Pokemon to do a simple job.
What did Gallade, Honchkrow, and Porygon-Z require? Absolutely nothing. They were deemed BL via solely their own offensive merits and fit the Offensive Characteristics required for an Uber.
Moltres isn't in that league by a longshot. Before we start claiming the conditions under which it can ruin a team, we need to consider the amount of effort those conditions require. Maintaining multiple layers of entry hazards as well as spinning them out requires a lot of support and a lot of effort, which is reason enough to believe that it shouldn't even be considered for BL.
All of the Moltres arguments are based on the faulty assumption that Froslass on your team automatically = 3 layers of unspinnable spikes, which is not the case against an opponent with any sort of sense. Either that or by the time you got up 3 spikes, the opponent has a massively boosted poke ready to sweep you Moltres or otherwise on the ready (see CM Raikou or the like).
Anyway, I like Moltres, he's a part of my team now and is working out well, but he's far from BL. I'd equate him to pre-Brave Bird Honchkrow: a solid wallbreaker but far from BL status.
Anyway, I like Moltres, he's a part of my team now and is working out well, but he's far from BL. I'd equate him to pre-Brave Bird Honchkrow: a solid wallbreaker but far from BL status.
What Rapid Spinner can survive 2 hits from Moltres after even a layer of Spikes are set up? That's the point. It isn't "only" Froslass who keeps the Spikes off of the field, but it really helps when a Rapid Spinner comes in to "revenge spin(?)" after a KO. That's when Froslass's Spin Blocking capabilities are used.
Also, you don't need 3 Layers. It's just very possible that you'll get three layers.
Quoted for truth
Mmmm I got to say. Anti-lead Hariyama is beast, if you run fake out that is... I ran a set w/o one, and got beated by a jumpluff...
Then you lose to ambipom and persian.
Jumpluff is by far the most annoying pokemon ever. Subseeding is such a pain because you can't break it's subs with u-turn I honestly have no idea how it is NU when it was BL in advance
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