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np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. Jukain

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    @Moose V

    Yeah...the Victini user kinda can. Think about it -- that's a 6.5% chance for the opposing player to come out on top, which is terrible. Thunder and Focus Blast WILL usually hit and Blue Flare will ALMOST ALWAYS hit. That's like arguing (for lack of a better example) that you can't ban Keldeo in OU because Hydro Pump doesn't always hit. Or perhaps Landorus-I missing Focus Blast is more apt. Accuracy is a very bad argument, because chances are the defender will lose the gamble.

    Yep, an unSTABed 80 BP move. It's not killing Victini.

    Thunder is standard on non-pure physical Victini, so this is a faulty argument. Getting an average damage roll or having some hazards up is not an unlikely scenario. SR is a standard battle condition, and Spikes exist, you know. And spinning is hard in UU.

    Also this stuff about 'not dignifying posts by responding to them' is stupid, as all opinions are valid unless they can be factually invalidated. That's just plain rude.
  2. Moose V

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    Did you read the post I responded to in the first place? The combination of his uncalled for aggression and nonsensical points definitely warranted my response. I'm also not advocating Victini staying in UU so once again your aggression is misplaced. Perhaps you just don't like that I was rude to that other guy, which I can understand, but once again look at his post. I was politely responding to Ace Emerald's points when he comes out with this absolutely absurd post which I couldn't help but crap all over.
  3. Jukain

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    I am not trying to be aggressive, so I apologize if my post came off as rude. I did not think the tone was as such. But, what exactly ARE you arguing for?
  4. Moose V

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    I'm neutral on the ban as of right now. I'm simply playing devil's advocate, responding to posts somewhat at random, etc.
  5. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    The suspect test will officially start on Thursday. There will be only one ladder (uususpect) and the reqs will be determined later, depending on how the first few days go. You can expect the deviation requirement to be as low as 50, btw, so be ready. I might also require all qualified voters to send in short paragraphs explaining their reasoning, we'll see.
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  6. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk pink hair don't care
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    People seemed to focus on the "Victini wrecks stall" aspect of your post, while completely ignoring the set itself, so I'd like to discuss it regarding this set in general, as it's the one you posted in the OP (by the way, thanks for actually posting a real set as a anti-Victini argument, it is the most convincing I've seen given that you aren't saying things like "these 14 coverage moves can beat this pokemon with full EVs in everything and LO scarf and expert belt"). Honestly, I don't really see that this set is all too threatening to most hail. Just like the other unrelated stall pokes that have for some reason occupied most of the argument the last page, this Victini too has quite a lot of things I'd consider direct counters.

    (please note that these are all the most damaging moves that Victini can throw out)

    -1 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 67-80 (17.49 - 20.88%) -- possible 7HKO
    252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Thick Fat Snorlax: 135-160 (27.16 - 32.19%) -- possible 4HKO
    -1 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Yes, this calc doesn't look very telling at first. However, regardless of Sucker Punch's relative weakness, Victini still can't comfortably stay in on a Hitmontop when it's -1 defenses)
    252 Atk Expert Belt Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 192-228 (48.85 - 58.01%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO (This one looks sort of odd as an argument too, but it has more to do with the fact that assuming prediction correctly twice is pretty rare. More importantly, it shows Slowbro's ability to threaten Victini out, as there's no point sacking Victini when Slowbro can regenerator/slack off all the damage right back off.)

    There are more useful examples, but you've all seen enough calcs. My point with these is not only that stall pokes are not entirely helpless against Victini, but more importantly as much as Victini wrecks stall, stall also wrecks Victini. Stall in general features a larger amount of hazards and damaging weather, for one thing. They also carry a larger amount of pokes with moves like Protect, which helps nerf choiced Victini (which will be revealed after the first turn they are used, 90% of the time), and also adds another layer of mindgames and importance on prediction. That grass knot to get rid of Rhyperior when it switches into a V-Create suddenly becomes a lot more shaky when Rhyperior pulls protect on your grass knot. Not only does your opponent have knowledge of your set now, but you also have a much greater chance to mispredict the following turn and either lose Victini or a crucial amount of momentum.

    Finally, I'd like to address one uncommon Victini counter that is honestly pretty beast outside of countering it as well. It's definitely not seen a whole ton in UU, for sure, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.

    252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Druddigon: 104-123 (29.05 - 34.35%) -- possible 4HKO

    Rocky Helmet Druddigon is probably the best full counter to most Victini sets bar Rocky Helmet Arcanine. Victini is basically shut down until Druddigon is dead - not only does it have to fear the ~30% recoil from Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin whenever it throws out a nuke, combined with whatever hazard damage may or may not be up, this also means that it can't wildly U-turn with abandon to increase momentum, as it'll be taking a very hefty chunk each time. Moreover, Druddigon's movepool is able to take advantage of Victini. Standard Tank druddigon sports moves like SR to capitalize on Victini's weaknesses, Sucker Punch to threaten it offensively further, and Dragon Tail to phaze whatever comes in, get a chance of knocking Victini back in and racking up more hazard damage. Lefties Druddigon works in a similar fashion - although it does less damage to Victini, it also gets more sustain with possible Protect and Dragon Tails.
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  7. Aecor

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    Usually stall uses a lots of hazards, usually at least rocks and 1 layer of spikes. Victini is severely limited by these hazards, in addition to LO recoil since using LO is the best way to beat stall. Also, as Kitten Milk has stated, a lot stall teams do have counters for Victini, ie: Defensive Snorlax, Defensive Arcanine, Specs Chandelure, etc.
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  8. Ace Emerald

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    The problem is that none of those Pokemon can switch into Special Victini. Special Victini with Blue Flare/Thunder or Psychic/Focus Blast/Grass Knot can literally 2HKO the entire tier save few mons which take 40%, and to those that say "Oh you need perfect prediction" 3 things: 1) It OHKOs about a 3rd of the tier anyways, 2) You can't expect your checks to be at 100% health, Pokemon isn't played that way, and most importantly 3) coverage lines up on a lot of Vic checks. They have Rhyperior, Snorlax, and Defensive Arcanine? That's cool, lead Focus Blast and 2HKO the lot. Hell even Hitmontop takes roughly 50% from Focus Blast, follow up with Blue Flare for a 2HKO. And you don't have to worry about perfect prediction if you OHKO with another move (Slowbro and Thunder for example). I'd like to add as a side not that you mention stall using damaging weather. The only one in UU is Hail which is at a serious disadvantage vs Victini. Also Special Vic can OHKO every stall hazard user bar Claydol (lol) unless I'm forgetting one.

    Specs Chandelure on stall? Regardless it's 2HKO'd by Psychic and Bolt Strike. Also only 30% of Arcanine carry Leftovers, defensive Arcanine is pretty rare.
  9. Aecor

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    Specs Chandy is pretty common on stall on the ladder. The thing is, Chandelure often bluffs the scarf, many Victini lose 1v1 vs Chandy, so people often switch out.

    And Defensive Arcanine is pretty rare on the ladder, but I would say MixedTini is also rare. I only know a few handful who use MixedTini. The rest use the Scarf/Band and a few use fully Special. I just don't see how stall "loses" to Victini.
  10. kokoloko

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    Not that any of this is all that relevant because there's this thing called offensive pressure that a lot of good teams use to keep hazards off the field vs stall. Just so happens that Victini fits perfectly into those types of teams too.

    Not saying we should assume no hazards, but we can't assume they will always be there either. That's pretty stupid.
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  11. Kitten Milk

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    PKGaming was referring specifically to mixed EBelt Victini as being devastating to stall, not special Victini. It's because of that that I didn't talk about vsing Special Victini - we've already shown that it doesn't get us anywhere to talk about multiple Victini sets at a time. (Anti-Ban proposes counter, Pro-Ban says that x-type of Victini beats counter, Anti-Ban and Pro-Ban end up talking about Raikou's viability 2 pages later etc etc).

    But re: the special victini and hazard users it can't OHKO,

    252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Druddigon: 175-207 (48.88 - 57.82%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO
    4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Claydol: 242-286 (74.69 - 88.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 208-247 (62.65 - 74.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 282-333 (75.8 - 89.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.59%) -- 36.33% chance to 2HKO
    4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 253-298 (62.62 - 73.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 152-179 (42.93 - 50.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Obviously there are lower tier/focus sash ones as well (Miltank, Smeargle), but these are the most relevant. (Unless you meant to say 2HKO every stall hazard user, which would be more accurate. Finally, I wasn't sure if you were assuming V-Create or Blue Flare, but Blue Flare AFAIK doesn't make any of these 2HKOs OHKOs).

    and @kokoloko I try to stay away from situationals like hazards in this situation, but all I really meant was that when vsing full stall (the playstyle in question) there are hazards on the field more often than they are against an average team, as stall teams tend to be more focused around spikes/toxic spikes/SR and phazing around.
  12. Ace Emerald

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    I'd also like to point out that all of them minus Drud (which I believe is more seen on bulky offense, and is rare no matter what) and Crustle (exclusively a suicide lead here) are handled by Xatu. Offensive Empoleon can beat both, but it isn't seen on Stall teams much either.
  13. Kitten Milk

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    Ace, just because something is rare doesn't mean that it isn't effective. Just like sets are suspected regardless of usage (something I didn't understand 2 months ago, lol), the same should be applied to its counters. Applying a usage argument to mixed Victini's counters is ridiculous in the first place given mixed Victini's relatively low usage, but given that we should be focused on viability and viability alone, I don't think its fair to shoot down things that deal with it just because they aren't as well known.

    Moreover, Uxie, SR Mew, Druddigon, and Defensive Arcanine are all extremely viable, especially on more stally teams. Druddigon is one of the only pokemon in the entire meta that can both set up hazards and also phaze things into them. It also has pretty great defensive typing and a wonderful defensive ability, and it would be perfectly reasonable to put it on a team if you lack a good answer to Victini. Uxie and SR Mew are also very viable, as they carry a tremendous amount of utility with their access to moves like Memento, U-turn, Dual Screens, and more. Finally, defensive Arcanine is considered by some great UU players to be one of if not the only viable set that Arcanine just isn't straight outclassed in. While Victini remains in UU, and Darmanitan's presence exists, the only niche that Arcanine can really fill other than Extremespeed is being a great defensive poke. With decent defensive typing for UU and semi-reliable recovery, Arcanine can actually be a pretty useful wall, especially when paired with another intimidate poke.


    Kokoloko summed it up nicely 8 pages ago or so - "A set's usage has relevance to its suspect status, but it no way does the fact that the ladder playerbase is filled with terrible players who haven't caught on to what's actually good dictate what gets banned and what doesn't."
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  14. Ace Emerald

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    Actually the inverse is by no means the same. Usage has no effect on suspect status because what is good, is good, and usage doesn't change that. But if to check a suspect, we're forced to dive to the fringe of relevance, that is a statement on the suspects control over the metagame. Note I'm not saying this is what breaks Victini, but if we have to dive to RU just to set SR against it (not even to legitimately check it, because Drudd can't really switch in) then that is a statement on what effect Victini has on teambuilding (also both Swampert and Rhyperior can set SR and phaze, that hardly makes Drudd special). SR Mew is almost unseen because if you want a bulky Mew, Sp Def is where its at. According to reachzero, a great UU staller, Sp Def Mew almost makes stall viable single handedly and it has no room for SR. Also, like I mentioned, its manhandled by Xatu. Also I never said defensive Arcanine wasn't viable, but it can really only check Scarf Vic and mixed Vic which was my main point.
  15. Aecor

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    Why is it that when someone like Reachzero says something is very good, and another player of arguably equal caliber (Kitten Milk) says it is not as good as one makes it out to be, that Reach's words are given more weight? This is supposed to be a debate of opinions. Whoever states their side should not have any substance; it should be the actual opinion that is given thought. This is a debate, not a popularity contest.

    In regards of Specially Defensive Mew, Specially Defensive Mew that lack Will-o-Wisp that has SR instead can beat pretty much all Victini 1v1. And just because something isn't used a lot should not mean it should be discounted. If this were the case, Pokes such as Mienshao would be suspected way before Victini.

    The thing is, between Raikou and Chandelure, Victini falls right in between, therefore, it is smacked right inbetween in terms of facing counters. Swampert and Rhyperior are destroyed by the mixed set; however, the mixed set is designed to lure and kill those off. Sure, Victini can 2HK everything in Theory, but it does not. Chandelure boasts the same ability; however, Chandelure is still around even though it is arguably more powerful than Victini.

    If the Lure Sets were able to destroy Rhyperior and Swampert, in addition to pokes such as P2 and Snorlax, then I would see merit in Victini being banned.

    And for Koko saying hazards being prevented by offensive pressure, this is not always the case. Hazards should almost always be considered in play because no matter what, a highly skilled player will find some way to get hazards up on the field. Whether it is by skillfully double or even triple switching, hazards will be used to hamper Victini.
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  16. Ace Emerald

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    First off, I am legitimately confused as to what you mean by this (the bold). We shouldn't include substance in our arguments? I just don't understand, substance is vague and when I think substance of an argument, I think of building logic which should definitely be a part of debating. Second off, this is a debate of opinions and facts. For example, Mew using SR has to give up W-o-W or Taunt which are both tremendous help to its ability to stall (fact), therefore it is my opinion that it is worse (opinion). Thirdly, nothing I attributed to Reach even directly contradicted anything Kitten Milk said, so your outrage is completely unfounded. I just quoted comments Reach has made on the helpfulness of Sp Def Mew to stall, then I stated my own opinion that Sp Def Mew is less helpful to stall with SR, which I have now backed with some logic. And if I hypothetically took something reach said over kitten milk, it'd be because 1)reach made the better argument in my eyes, and 2) reach has been a top notch UU player for many years. It has nothing to do with popularity, join date, badges, or anything like that, and everything to do with my first hand experience that reach knows what he's talking about and always makes convincing arguments. And this is all hypothetical anyways.

    4 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 253-298 (62.62 - 73.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Mew: 169-200 (41.83 - 49.5%) -- 28.13% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    0 SpA Mew Psyshock vs. -3 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 108-127 (31.67 - 37.24%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    You understand I'm a little confused.

    Victini is faster and has much better coverage than Chandelure. And if you read carefully, koko said you can't assume either way. You can't assume they won't be there, but you also can't always assume they will be.
  17. Ace Emerald

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    Posts with 2 sentences that cover nothing important are not accepted here, please make sure your post has good content before posting.
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  18. Kitten Milk

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    @Ace Emerald I've been off for a couple days so I'm not sure what the above post is referring to but I did start a post and get only 2 sentences done and left it so if that accidentally posted somehow I'm sorry about that. If not, I'll start again lol

    Let me start by saying that I will always defer to reach's opinion on anything stall so if he thinks SR mew is bad then it's bad. I know literal poop compared to him about the stall metagame.

    Next, you said that "delving into RU" for Druddigon to have a good counter to Victini proves that Victini is really this broken. I'd argue that the fact that it's in RU is completely irrelevant as to its effectiveness in UU, and more importantly, as its effectiveness as a counter to Victini. Indeed, if Victini is really as big of a threat as some people on the pro-ban side make it out to be, then using an otherwise slightly inferior pokemon (which druddigon is not, it fills a niche that not much else in UU does and is one of the closest things to a complete counter to Vic) shouldn't be that big of a deal if you need to counter it.

    You also stated that Druddigon can't switch in to Victini. In fact, it loves switching into Victini and puts a ton of pressure on Victini unless it is completely and entirely special. I'm sure you know that overwhelmingly Victini - whether scarfed, banded, mixed - loves to spam U-turn and V-Create. Every other move is generally generic coverage or situational to eliminate certain pokes. Neither of these moves do much at all to Drudd, and more importantly Victini will be taking an immense amount of recoil from Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet ( + Life Orb). This is only compounded by the fact that if Victini doesn't U-turn right out and is instead forced to hard switch fearing a Glare/Sucker Punch, Druddigon can get free rocks up, Paralyze something, or shuffle things around. Instead of saying that the use of Druddigon as a counter to Victini is a testament to Victini's brokenness, I would argue that because Victini is so threatening, it makes Druddigon all the more viable as not only a counter but as a UU poke in general.

    Druddigon isn't the only lower-tier threat that is great in the UU metagame, as I'm sure you know. More pertinently, a lot of these threats were brought in purely for the purpose of checking or countering existing UU threats. Golurk was popularized after it became apparent to how great of a counter it was to MoxieCross and Mienshao. Qwilfish became popular after its bulk and relevance in the UU metagame as its resistances to fire and fighting became more increasingly useful and apparent. It is because of cases like these that usage should not only be ignored for the poke being suspected, but also in the discussions of what can viably counter it.
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  19. Ace Emerald

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    That had nothing to do with you and a lot to do with many deleted posts.
    I'd just like to make sure the record is absolutely straight, I have no quote of reach saying that but I have many quotes of him talking about Sp Def Mew and those quotes lead me to believe it would be bad.
    The fact you have to go to RU is not what breaks Victini, it is a statement about metagame control. I'll go ahead and address your last paragraph now: if you are using a low tier Pokemon to counter a big threat it is always a statement about metagame control. Using Golurk to check Heracross, Mienshao, and to an extent Raikou and Zapdos is a statement about the metagame. All of those Pokemon exert control on the metagame and make it worth it to use Golurk. Now while this is never conclusive proof of brokenness (none of the Pokemon I mentioned before are broken), it is always something to examine when looking at a suspect.
    I'd like to know what set you're talking about. With a hazard on the field, if Victini U-turns to something able to force out Drudd, Scarf V-Create 2HKOs a 252/0 set. Band scores a clean 2HKO on this set as well. A set with no Attack struggles to threaten Victini, Sucker Punch fails to OHKO -1 Vic after SR damage. And it falls to the amazing Special set. I have no doubt that you can use Drudd to successfully check Vic, but at the end of the day its only a check. Maybe that's good enough for some users, and that's why we vote on the matter. I'm not going to shut down discussion here, but honestly the two sides have reached an ideologic impasse. Anti ban are satisfied that Vic can be checked and played around, Pro ban are not. We're both in agreement that Victini is a strong and versatile Pokemon, there doesn't seem much to convince anyone of. The only thing left is for moderates to chose the side they feel argued best and for everyone to vote.
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  20. Alfalfa

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    I don't think Victini is broken. Sure, people are caught off guard by a Special or mixed set, but that would apply to Specs Swampert or something similar to that. If MixTini was broken because of its luring capabilities, then so would every other lure in the tier. Victini does shit on stall a bit, but it isn't as game changing as Genesect or Tornadus-T was in OU. There are risks to using Victini; it dying prematurely from its weakness to hazards, the V-Create drops weighing it down too much, and so forth. When I think of broken, I think of Genesect, who gave a team so much momentum, and Deoxys-D, who could basically guarantee Stealth Rock and some Spikes being layed down for every match. Victini is indeed powerful, and a thorn in the side to stall, but it can still be handled. Snorlax can tank a V-Create and answer back with Body Slam or Crunch, and Arcanine and Chandelure can abuse Flash Fire to get a boost from V-Create, and though Arcanine can't do much to Victini if it lacks Crunch, Chandelure can KO Victini with Shadow Ball.

    Overall, Victini is a good Pokemon in UU, but it is not as broken as some people claim it is.
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  21. Moose V

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    I think you may be underestimating the power of special or mixed victini. I wouldn't compare it to something else unless it functions mainly in a pretty similar fashion and specs swampert is almost unviable while mixed victini can get a kill every time it comes in. It boasts really nice speed, an amazing move pool and a nice ability to compliment that move pool. Swampert can't really boast any of these.

    I wouldn't compare it to genesect either because genesect was an extreme case of a ban because it was so overpowered it was rediculous and pretty much no one thought it should stay. Remember a poke doesn't necessarily have to be as broken as genesect to get kicked out of a tier. What makes victini so good is that if it's special then physical walls don't stop it and can get killed on the switch in and if it's physical then special walls can't stop it and risk getting ko'd. Thus you can easily lose a poke just by guessing wrong. If its mixed well, that's even worse.



    While I'm here @ the people who said victini was broken because it can get a kill and then something else can sweep, this argument is a tad invalid because A) the same logic could prove that final gambit/explosion is broken B) any offensive poke can get a kill but just like victini they can't necessarily guarantee that the thing they kill is the one preventing something else on your team from sweeping. I realize this was an older argument but I forgot to address it.

    I'm typing this on my phone so I apologize if I have some weird phrasing because I'm trying to type fast.
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  22. kokoloko

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    Again, every facet of Victini's abilities should be considered when making any argument--that includes its ability to lure out potential counters and surprise nuke them for a teammate to sweep. Shit's been banned for similar reasons before. Explosion/Final Gambit aren't even in the same vein here because they require the user to sacrifice itself (the latter must do so before it loses too much HP, as well).

    I'm not sure why people are so intent on singling out each of Victini's individual characteristics and trying to debunk each one separately... that's not how the game is played. When is the last time you went "okay I can deal with this one aspect of Victini, I GOT THIS!"?

    Victini is one entity and all of its attributes should be taken into consideration together when making a broken/unbroken call.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
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  23. Moose V

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    Someone made a point somewhere that although Victini may die easily it can go down with a kill or at least weaken something enough that it allows something else to sweep. That's what I was addressing when I brought up explosion/final gambit.
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  24. MaoC

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    Right. Since it can easily run physical, mixed, special, or scarf, and at least be a reasonable threat, you almost always have to burn turns scouting which can absolutely give victini the opportunity to just kill something. It has a tendancy to spam v-create regardless of what set its running so even just finding out which type of victini you're up against is flat out dangerous. This is just all about where to draw the line now. Personally I don't think it's broken but I'm only ~1850 so I'm gonna avoid campaigning in either direction since there are better people on here for that of course.

    That being said, we're a couple days into suspect test. How do people feel about the metagame without victini so far?
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  25. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Okay I decided reqs. But before that there's some things I need to address:

    I initially said there would be only a single ladder, I sort of lied. There will be only a single ladder at a time, but you will have to get reqs on two ladders. Some complications (the suspect ladder wasn't actually reset, despite what I thought) were recently brought to my attention that made me change my mind. The following solution should do two things: Give players an idea of the differences between a metagame with and without Victini, and force them to actually play to make reqs.

    You will have until September 20th at 11:59 PM GMT -4 to reach a Glicko2 rating of 2050 and a deviation of ±65 on the suspect ladder, at which time I will take a screenshot of the ladder to record all the alts that made it. I would prefer if you all used fresh alts, but since the lack of a reset was my oversight, I can't blame you if you use old alts.

    Once that's done, we'll go back to the standard ladder with Victini on it, which I will make sure is reset, and you will have 2 weeks to reach a Glicko2 rating of 2050 with a deviation of ±65.

    Only after that's done will I post an alt identification thread (this forces you to maintain that rating/dev until the deadline, I know, I did that on purpose), so don't post screenshots here. lol. Those who achieve both reqs will be eligible to vote on Victini. Special Applications will be open only to those who get reqs on one ladder and fall just short of the second.

    That is all.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013

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