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np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Hey there!

    Now that we know what the last BW tier shift brought us (nothing!) and we have our beloved forums back, we're ready to dive into the final stages of Underused tiering--iron out all the kinks, if you will.

    As most of you know, there's two major suspects that have been discussed at length on both IRC and the previous np thread: Froslass and Victini. Both of them will be suspected during this stage, but we're doing them individually because it's not like we're rushing to beat the next tier shift this time. As you could probably tell from the thread title, Froslass is up first.

    On a related note, from this point forward, there is no UU Senate, all votes will be carried out using suspect ladders and reqs. I'll speak to Zarel or another PS admin as soon as I get a chance about setting up a suspect ladder. I'll set actual reqs by the end of next week, and you can expect the deadline to be around the end of the month, with the vote taking place about a month from now.

    Information on the reqs for Victini is on this post.

    So now, you can go ahead and discuss, or simply sit back and enjoy Ghosts N Stuff.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  2. PTJon7

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    Oh cool I've never participated in a suspect test, I'll be sure to get the reqs to put in my vote.

    Froslass is a huge contributor to the offensive play style of UU. Its common to just run Froslass and 5 sweepers and have an effective team. Spikes are really significant in UU, I'd say mostly because almost every wall in the tier is susceptible to them. Spikes make it infinitely easier to sweep teams, especially when UU has things like Sharpedo that can absolutely wreck with spikes on the field. Taunt and Destiny Bond help make her such a great supporting pokemon, unless you manage to outsmart an opposing Froslass there's a good chance you'll be losing one of your team members to a Destiny Bond.
  3. PK Gaming

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    Hopefully this will be a no-brainer.

    (hint: even PO banned Froslass)
    Kingler12345 and Finchinator like this.
  4. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Froslass is amazing. It can setup Spikes, spinblock its own hazards, immune to Fighting-types, blazing speed, fast Taunt user, and it pretty much always guarantees a kill with Destiny Bond. I would go as far as saying that it's probably the best Spiker/Leads in UU. Do I think it's broken? Nah. Froslass may be an amazing lead for offensive teams, but outside of being a hazard lead, there really isn't that much it can do. Smart players can play around the suicide variants with Toxic or Thunder Wave in order to keep it from taking out one of your own members with Destiny Bond. The non suicide leads are heavily susceptible to all forms of entry hazards, and combined with her frail defenses, she wont be lasting that long. Spinners aren't a very uncommon sight in UU, making it hard for her to get the job done. She has a bit of 4MSS, because she wants to run Spikes / Shadow Ball / Taunt / Ice Beam /Destiny Bond, but she can't, forcing her to give up coverage or utility. If she chooses Ice Beam over Shadow Ball, then she's walled by Blastoise and Fire-types such as Victini and Arcanine. If she chooses Shadow Ball, then Snorlax can setup on her all day. If she chooses both, then she loses the chance to kill something with Destiny Bond, or become setup fodder against other utility Pokemon such as Ferroseed, Swampert, and Empoleon, making her susceptible to status.

    All in all, Froslass is a bitch to play against, but easy to play around. She's good, but not game breaking in the slightest. I can see why many see her as broken, but at the same time, I've never found myself losing because of Froslass.
  5. BAD

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    Froslass is not broken. I have been playing UU for quite some time and have reached a rating of 1950. With this high of a rating and playing over 1000 battles on Pokemon Showdown, I see no pokemon currently broken in the UU tier, especially not Froslass. Froslass is a good suicide lead, but there are ways to counter her.

    Crustle for example as a lead can beat Froslass without her setting up a single layer of spikes on the first turn. From my experience of using Crustle as a lead versus an opposing Froslass, most players will taunt Crustle while I Rock Blast Froslass into oblivion as it's Focus Sash will not save her due to Rock Blast's multi-hit capabilities.

    That is just one example of how Froslass can be taken down without a single layer of spikes being laid on the field and not losing a pokemon in the process. And even if some spikes were laid out on the field, most players have spinners on their teams to spin away any hazards. Also while Froslass is setting up spikes, you as a player can do something to either prevent that from happening or start setting up if your faster than Froslass to put pressure onto your opponent.

    Another reason why Froslass is fine is that you're opponent is essentially trading off a Pokemon to set up a layer or 2 of spikes. Of course Froslass can use Destiny Bond to take down an opposing pokemon with it, but only inexperienced noobs fall for that. For good high ranking players such as myself, it's really easy to get around Destiny Bond.
  6. Godsend

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    Can I be... Disappointed? It honestly feels like suspecting for the sake of suspecting. Up until VERY recently there hasn't been any hubbub about Froslass and now it's being suspected? It just doesn't make sense to me. Victini (though I don't feel it's broken) makes more sense as a suspect than Lass. Also, though we have a spinner at number five in the stats, I guarantee it's not because of number 24 Froslass. Yeah, I just don't feel the usefulness or even the fun in this test. The metagame is balanced and has been for a while now.
    Adonzo likes this.
  7. The Quasar

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    I'm agree with Gary2346. Froslass is very likely the most effective spiker in UU; it's so fast and accurate, helped by its great speed and incredible typing. It's #2 in leader rank because players knows its abilities. But its use is like a one-way street, a "very one-dimensional Pokemon and doesn't have too many other options" like the Smogon description sheet in Other Option. So since Destiny Bond can be bypassed, Froslass is still a very good choice, but IMHO far away to be decisive.
  8. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I can definitely see where people are coming from about Froslass being suspect worthy. She is by far the best spiker in UU, and allow her to simply and easily set up Spikes. She has Taunt to make sure nothing can set up on her in the process, while Destiny Bond can take down one opponent. Froslass also has the ability to spinblock, so spinners cannot remove her work. She has the basic Spiking power, and when she dies, you have it 5-5 with hazards on the Froslass user's side of the field, which gives the Froslass user the advantage for the rest of the match. I'm not sure if it's broken (as much as I love using it leaning towards it being banned atm), although I can definitely see the arguments against it being banned, such as its fraility and predictability. Nonetheless, I can see where Froslass is broken, and I would see it being ban worthy in a way.
  9. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    wow i think this was the completely wrong way to do things :/, victini is 100% broken imo and even worse, scarftini is a great answer to lass which means for the pro-ban side, you could have a reason to keep lass in UU that could end up leaving after the froslass vote is decided.

    im anti-ban here, but maybe i'm in a small minority who doesn't see froslass as close to broken. i'd argue it's by far the best spiker, but in my opinion that is all it is and i don't think it's worth banning just because froslass by itself is so bad (sr weak, frail, weak offensively, weak to stone edge/fire moves/crunch, neutral to eq, scald, thunderbolt, only good thing worth mentioning is the fighting immunity).

    if it had stealth rock, i'd see it being akin to deoxys-s and would 100% push for a ban here, but in this case, froslass is only setting up spikes and is dealt with so fairly easily that i can't justify seeing it go.

    throw in the fact that it's only compounding weaknesses to a team unless you're risky enough to not bring a 2nd ghost for the fighting immunity, it's just the best spiker hands down but a liability in other areas. can't vote ban on this one in good faith
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  10. Aecor

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    As for Froslass, I do not see it as being broken. It is extremely well at what it does, setting up spikes and preventing hazards; however, with many Rhyperiors with Rock Blast (as well as Crustles), I don't see how it is a big problem. It is stopped by lead Azelfs, Cincinnos, and Ambipom's with Beat-up as well as many other Mons (Crobat, etc). A well played Froslass *will* get two layers up and probably take down a Poke or 2, but it pretty much stops there. It has no other viable sets other than spiking. This is juxtaposed to the last Queen of Spiking, Roserade. Roserade can run a Full Hazards set, Spikes, T-spikes with Sleep Powder, Specially Defensive, LO Offensive, or Choice Specs set, something Froslass could only dream of doing.

    Froslass basically allows Hyper Offensive to be so effective as well as making Stall THAT much easier. The Bulky Set is actually extremely hard to take down if you want to use Scrfers in the beginning (You don't wanna be locked into a move so early in the game with so many counters). This is not to mention Cursed Body hax etc. For example, if Froslass taunts Blastoise with Roar, Foresight, Scald and Rapid Spin, it is forced to use Scald...30% to disable it then BOOM, you gotta switch unless you got a Foresight off...in which case you can stay in and Rapid Spin, but it just isn't effective.


    In conclusion, I couldn't care less if Froslass was banned, but I would think the UU meta would be slightly more biased towards stall/Balanced without it.
  11. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    I'm really not sure whether or not Froslass is broken or not.

    On the one hand, it is almost always free spikes. There are only a select few pokemon that can stop it from setting up multiple layers (Rock Blasters, things faster than 110 base speed, scarfers that don't get disabled.) and even fewer that can actually prevent it from setting up at all. (Sableye, Azelf...random Beat Up users...???) Most pokemon that you would typically use to prevent hazard from going down are actually weak to Ice Beam, which makes it even harder. (See: Tornadus, Xatu, Crobat). The few pokemon that can actually prevent layers from going down at all are only usable on select teams. You can't just throw Taunt Azelf onto a balanced/stall team and expect it to succeed. So right from the get-go, you're basically resigned to the fact that you're playing at least part of the game with a layer of spikes down. Not to mention the fact that if you're unfortunate enough to have your Rhyperior/Crustle's Rock Blast only hit twice, your opponent's Froslass STILL got 2 layers of Spikes up.

    For anybody who's considering using the argument "most teams use spinners anyways" please don't. First of all, the spinners in UU suck. This has been established multiple times in multiple threads. The fact that Froslass is forcing you to run one of three pokemon is reason enough to suspect it. Second of all, OTR Cofagrigus is one of the most common pokemon paired with the suicide lead set. Feel free to try spinning on that. (If you do, it means hitting Foresight beforehand, which means I have not just one, but TWO free turns to set up.) Third of all, if you're facing BulkyLass, it spinblocks for itself and stays alive even into the end-game. Most people would argue that it not only gets spikes up more consistently, but keeps them on the field very consistently as well.

    Despite all this though, it can't be denied that Froslass has a couple of shortcomings. For one, you do essentially have to play an entire match down 5-6 from the start. Covering the entire UU meta with 6 pokemon is hard enough, let alone with only 5. In addition, as KD pointed out, Froslass doesn't set up Stealth Rock, it only gets up Spikes. Anything with Levitate or anything that is a Flying-type is almost unfazed by what Froslass does. Also, if you drop a turn to use Taunt, you probably are only getting up 1 layer of spikes. Any remotely competitive player KNOWS that Froslass carries Taunt, and they're just going to start attacking it. The bulky set is also very difficult to play, as its defenses really aren't that great. The bulky set is great when played properly, but it's not that easy to do so. So is Froslass broken? I'm really not sure at this point. There's no doubt it is a top-level supportive threat, and a great aid to offensive teams, but I'm not sure whether or not it breaks the "broken" border just yet.
    Hollywood, Spirit and PK Gaming like this.
  12. Shy Glizzy

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    You can't really compare the two. "Even PO" also banned Roserade and Smeargle, too. The two sims have a different playerbase and metagames. What may be OP here might not be there, and vice versa.
  13. PK Gaming

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    I'm aware of the vastly different metagames, I just think that their reasons for banning it in their metagame also apply to our metagame.

    To reiterate, there's nothing overtly broken about Froslass. I'm merely opposed to allowing a Pokemon that heavily skews the risk/reward nature of spikestacking in its favor.
  14. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Not really. This reasoning assumes that all pokemon carry the same risk/reward, which is completely untrue. The difference is that Froslass, as PK said, skews the risk/reward ratio. With extra layers of spikes up, not just a couple, but SEVERAL offensive pokemon become immediately more threatening and at a very significantly lower risk. Compared to something like Stall, which is going to be a much higher risk. Stall is going to be a higher risk not just because it relies on taking teams many turns into a game (more chances for crits) but because against things like Froslass, they have to play the game immediately with 2 layers of spikes on their side of the field, when their team revolves around switching multiple times.

    In addition, over-centralizing is not the only factor in determining suspects. If it was, Chandelure and Fighting-types would have been banned long ago. Look at how high Umbreon and Snorlax have jumped in the past few statistics. Same goes for Cofagrigus and Nidoqueen, who jumped from RU to UU for the sole purpose of countering things like Heracross. Also look at the flipside, when Gothitelle was banned even though it was seeing very little use. It was banned because certain pokemon became immediate liabilities to have on teams, and they were too much of a risk. Centralizing is a component, but it is not the only thing we should be looking at.
  15. Shy Glizzy

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    Yes, Froslass is pretty much guaranteed to get up at least 1 layer of spikes, but would you call that heavily skewed? Getting up 2 often requires either a bad team matchup (not heaving anything that can outspeed or THKO Fross) or getting outplayed through mindgames (not going for the KO in fear of destiny bond). 3 pretty much never happens in a high level matchup due to players willing to chance their mon fainting from Destiny Bond than get that dreaded third layer. I wouldn't say getting 16% damage every switchin at the cost of starting off 5/6 is OP just like getting 12.5%( as well as neutering threats like Victini, Darmanitan & Zapdos) is OP.


    A Pokemon can be OP without being "over-centralizing" (which is a nonsense word); see: Gothitelle, Wobufett. They can also be "over-centralizing" without being OP; see: Heracross a few stages ago, (DP)P Scizor. Whether a pokemon greatly affects the metagame with it's presence is merely one aspect on whether or not it should be banned.
  16. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Taunt + Spikes + Destiny Bond + High speed + Ghost Typing = Master of Spikes.

    It's not just one of those traits that make Frosslass powerful, its ALL OF THEM.

    Taunt + High speed allows Froslass to be a powerful anti-lead; any setup pokemon vs Froslass is a losing game. E.g. Bronzong, Crustle, etc

    Spikes is self-explanatory

    Destiny Bond allows you to lower the game to a 5v5. That usually isn't a bad thing, but the problem here is that Froslass already has its job done. Usually matches go like this: Setup spikes, Dbond & Kill. The difference is that Froslass, after setting up spikes, is done, we dont need her any more(unless bulky spiker), and can be tossed into the trash. Bringing along another one of its opponent's pokemon is a big fat bonus. Not to mention, Taunt of the opponent easily activates the Destiny Bond.

    Mindgames? What many mindgames are there? Taunt + Destiny Bond = Free OHKO. Spikes + Taunt + Destiny Bond = If you're a smartass that attacks on the first turn and setups on second turn, OHKO. If you switch out to remove the taunt/destiny bond, count yourself hurt by a layer of spikes.


    And the whopper is this: UU spinners are trash. And when you pair up a powerful spikesstacker vs the tier with unarguably bad spinners, it greatly skews the risk/reward scenario.
  17. Sweep

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    "Ask any player, many will agree that BatonPassing or SmashPassing is kind of easy mode."

    Incorrect. If baton/smash passing was that easy, everyone would be doing it. It is easy to phase out with mons like Roar Suicune, and plenty of Pokémon in UU are strong enough to take a hit. There is still skill involved vs. better player (i.e. identifying a window to set up, avoiding Taunt, etc.)

    As for the test itself, I am partial to Froslass. My Omastar will miss it dearly as it destroys the metagame in rain after a smash with Spikes support from Bosslass (and Kabutops cleans up the mess). Froslass is really good on Hyper offense and its access to Taunt and Destiny Bond make it very difficult to play around. With that said, it isn't broken in my experience; just extremely good. This will be a close vote.
  18. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Guys i really don't want to moderate this thread because the default font makes my eyes bleed but I will if you guys keep up the bitchslap fight. And it won't just be post deletions.
  19. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    ^ This dude and his fossils lol.

    On a more serious note, I do have to say Froslass is kinda "one of those" Pokemon. Can live with it, can live without it, really. I kinda never liked the lead set, in my opinion mainly because it has what I call "Zoroark Syndrome"; most peeps are going to have some means of preparation to deal with your lead to eliminate it early as possible, expecting you to try for a single layer of Spikes. Be it something like any scarf user or base 115+ (Brobat, Raikou, Scarf Mienshao, Azelf) with U-Turn or Volt Switch to break your sash on turn one and try to kill immediately after. Or the opponent just leads with Rhyperior and you have to gamble on whether you think Rock Blast will miss/hit 3 times on the first turn. But this in itself doesn't prove much a testament on why I think it shouldn't be banned (Heck, I'm actually neutral in this regard, to be honest). Because at the same time, take a look at how many offensive teams have been able to utilize Froslass effectively and capitalize off the Spikes damage. As someone else stated, cleaners like Sharpedo really love seeing an opponent's field covered in pointy objects because it's just less HP to survive hits with. Even worse is if there's a bit of shuffling support from something crazy like RestTalk Snorlax (Actually a team I made with Calloflochie employed this + Froslass + Sharpedo, etc. to quite some success) to help obtain free damage. And then the Destiny Bond, the most annoying thing in the world is the mindgames played with that move especially when you use it as the opponent switches to his main condition for dealing with Froslass, only to have to risk switching again and letting you get up more Spikes, or losing a Pokemon.

    Haha I guess it's whatever to me for real, lol. I've kinda gotten used to Froslass and her annoying antics, not to say they can't be gamechanging in their own right, with Rapid Spin becoming a dying practice in UU. I usually try to keep a way to deal with her if at all possible, but no question in why it'd be suspected. But as I said before, it's whatever.
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  20. Lovelace

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    An important factor that's being missed here is the fact that we all have widely different team building styles and thus have a much different experience with Frosslass. Like for example if your two favourite Pokemon are Cinccino and Ambipom, you're probably not having that much trouble. But for me personally I find Frosslass to be ridiculously strong vs me. Because I like a lot of switching and predictions and playing with resistances I run bulky offensive teams with rarely anything over 100 base speed and seldom do I run scarfers. In my experience Frosslass can be utterly ridiculous, usually getting 1 spike for free followed with at least a Destiny Bond kill on something. Depending on if I feel like playing games it will get spikes damage on several of my mons and maybe a twave before getting that kill.

    I mean certainly, sometimes it doesn't get so much done. Sometimes it taunts and then dies to my Rhyperior's Rock Blast. Sometimes it gets two spikes up and then dies. But I think that ultimately the problem is that it's too damn hard to handle; barring two or three obscure Pokemon it always has a chance to take Pokemon out with D Bond (fast Pokemon still die if she D Bonds on the switch) on top of almost certainly getting a Spike or two up and any attempt to play around D Bond will likely give Frosslass more reward. As someone mentioned above the risk/reward is just extremely high in Frosslass' favour and there's little way to combat it. Someone said that playing with Frosslass is hard because you're basically playing with only 5 Pokes; yeah it's hard but you've built a team around only having those other 5 whereas when you D Bond something your opponent hasn't built their team on losing one Poke right away. I can only really speak for my team building style but from these posts and my experience it seems like this is the case for many types of teams. In fact I imagine it's even worse for stall teams.

    I wouldn't call Frosslass broken, it's not like if we had Arceus or something in here, but I view it as a fairly negative force on the game and I think that the metagame, in terms of both fun and skill, would be improved by it's absence.

    Victini is another issue. I've only seen physical scarf/band outside of one or two times and while the potential for it to absolutely smash your Rhyperior or whatever first turn is dirty I don't know if it really deserves a ban. Even if people started taking advantage of its multitudes of great sets I'm not sure it would really be broken. Really once you hit an attack the gig is up and as soon as you learn its set Victini is entirely manageable. Victini is currently a huge threat and it has the potential to become an even bigger one, but nothing that can't be handled with a little smart scouting.

    Edit: Oh yeah if the pissing contest is still going on my main was #2 and is still sitting in the 1900s. My screw around accounts also keep creeping into the 1800s despite me constantly experimenting with dumb stuff like Braviary and Scolipede.
  21. Patrick1088

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    Froslass is definitely a great poke and a threat that beats most leads. Xatu and rhyperior are hit hard by ice beam
    Taunt shuts down setup pokes like bronzong. Destiny bond stops slower revenge killers. Its typing is great. If you have a snorkax/heracrozz/froslass core it is vert strong and beats the typical counters. On that note, it is easily stopped by sableye with taunt and it isnt maimed by ice beam. Multi hit moves like rock blast from rhyperior crustle and cincinno will take it out. Alzo blastoise and hitmontop can take an ice beam and foresight/rapid spin or toxic/dragon tail/roar lass. So while lass is annoying it is possible to check her.
  22. PTJon7

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    How did this get derailed so quickly -.-

    One thing I don't think has been mentioned is Cursed Body, its another pretty significant benefactor to Froslass' excellence. Say you're using your Scarf sweeper to take out Froslass, if Cursed Body activates when Froslass is hit down to her sash (or when she dies for that matter) you're forced to switch and enable Froslass to set up even further. While it is a 30% chance of happening that still is decently high, and having it activate can seriously screw you over.
  23. Godsend

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    OR you can use struggle and still get the KO. Granted you lose 25% but that's better than having two layers of Spikes on the field. That being said, Cursed Body is a dick.
  24. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    I once got my Scarf Mienshao's Stone Edge disabled after doing a huge chunk to Froslass...real talk, I stayed in and KO'd with Struggle. It was the funniest thing ever, but it's worth it if Froslass is weakened enough, especially since the other guy expects you to switch.
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  25. Patrick1088

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    I find that victini is manageable as a physical set the special set is entirely different and iz harder to counter imo. Focus blast obliterates umbreon and snorlax and its bulk makes it difficult to revenge kill.

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