1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by kokoloko, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380

    Yes of course, but Froslass' spiking abilities are stopped cold by Crobat, which was what I was trying to get at. I'll remove that so I don't confuse anybody.
  2. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    417

    This is pretty irrelevant the way I look at it. Does Crobat prevent Froslass from getting spikes down? Sure, but you're going to eat a STAB Ice Beam in the process. And then you're pretty much forced to roost to avoid getting KO'd, which just lets the player with Froslass out switch into whatever they want for free. So while you've prevented Spikes from going up, you're still at a disadvantage as far as momentum is concerned. Froslass can come in and, absolute worst case scenario, still set up one layer of Spikes a few turns later.
  3. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380

    All I meant was that it can stop Froslass with Taunt, but I never said that it wasn't a bad move to stay in on Froslass. I would never keep in a Crobat on a Froslass. Lol I don't even know why I posted that in the first place, because I knew that someone would misinterpret it.
  4. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,393
    Yeah Froslass has a lot of things that make it somewhat broken in UU. Firstly, it can Spike and spinblock; it's fast so it can quickly get the hazards up. Froslass also has the advantage of spinblocking, especially BulkyLass, of which I've used and love. It does not help that UU has shitty spinners at best; Blastoise, Claydol, and Hitmontop are all we have. Hitmontop and Blastoise have no use outside of Rapid Spinning, and Claydol is just plain pitiful. Maybe Kabutops and Cryogonal can beat Froslass one-on-one, but that's not anything to say against a Froslass ban, since the fact that you're going down to RU to get a spinner to beat it is really saying something. Other ways to prevent hazards such as Xatu are not gonna enjoy eating an Ice Beam to the face, same with Crobat and stuff. Sure, you can use fast Taunts such as Crobat or Azelf to stop it, but an Ice Beam or Shadow Ball is certainly gonna hurt. Taunt is also something. Then there's also Destiny Bond, which pretty much guarantees with Froslass you're getting a free kill. Froslass can quickly just D-Bond after its Spikes have been done, and once it dies having done its job, it will take down something with it. Also Cursed Body is really annoying, if it activates and you're running a choiced Pokemon while it spikes, Froslass is guaranteed yet another layer. If Struggle kills it, yeah you're still at a disadvantage with your team sufficiently weakened. Don't forget- two sets are possible, SashLass being a great suicide lead guaranteeing itself at least two layers of Spikes a match against slower teams, and BulkyLass too can be decent, setting up Spikes with almost as much ease while having the advantage. Froslass is literally a defining force of the tier, and is the epitome of Spikes in UU, even moreso than Roserade and Qwilfish (and Scolipede), the other good Spikers in UU. The other thing is that Froslass is so good, it almost overshadows Qwilfish, Roserade, Scolipede, etc. giving them trouble finding a teamslot. I'm not sure if it's entirely ban worthy, but it definitely has a large impact on the tier.
    Oddish is the best likes this.
  5. PTJon7

    PTJon7

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    553
    I've been trying out Custap Crustle on the suspect ladder as my alt Blah7 and I'd say it might be the best replacement for suicide Spike lead. While it lacks awesome support moves like Taunt and Destiny Bond it makes up for it by actually having decent offensive potential and access to Stealth Rock. Also it doesn't need to worry about getting outsped, as Custap'ed moves are only beaten by priority.

    If Froslass ends up getting banned what do you guys think will take it's place as the top UU Spiker?
  6. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,108
    Crustle is a good custap lead indeed. Stealth Rocks+Spikes is better than 2 layers of spikes. Of course it lacks good support moves but its an excellent replacement. It also cant spinblock so spinners can just rapid spin on its face. I dont really think it will actually be taking froslass spot as most people might prefer roserade high offensive presence and ability to setup on bulk waters.
  7. PTJon7

    PTJon7

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    553
    Oh yea for sure doesn't outclass Froslass but it does have certain things going for it, especially in the suspect ladder where Froslass is banned.
  8. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,367
    Because people keep asking me, you have to get reqs on both ladders (reqs that I will edit into the OP), and you do not have to use the same name for both ladders, as long as you own both of them that is ok.
  9. JayHankEdLyon

    JayHankEdLyon

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Messages:
    235
    I've always found standard Froslass incredibly easy to deal with with Crobat. Brave Bird 2HKOs, and they nearly always use Ice Beam to try to stop me. 5-6 from the get-go.

    The only thing stopping it is a switch (which, after I set up Stealth Rock is a nail in the coffin), a crit, or Cursed Body. Yeah, Crobat takes some damage, but all Froslass can reliably do is set up a single layer of spikes, which honestly is not worth an entire spot for a pokemon IMO.

    This isn't to say that Froslass isn't broken; I'm sure in the right hands it's deadly, and BulkyLass is a serious pain when it's used, just that in my personal experience as someone who's played 1000+ games in this tier, it's never even crossed my mind that Froslass was anything near broken.
  10. Cabol

    Cabol

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    51
    I really don't see how Frolass is broken or should be in the suspect test. Ran some dmg calcs, Xatu 2HKOs with Heat Wave and only has a 13% chance of being 2HKOed. Bronzong OHKOs with Gyro Ball (if Fros has the Sash on, swicth on the predicted DB the next turn on burn/toxic it to avoid getting killed). Rhyperior/Crustle OHKOs with 3 hits from Rock Blast. As mentioned before, Crobat has a guarenteed 2HKO with Brave Bird. Heck, even the rare Weavile with Beat Up OHKOs Frolass with ease. If you aren't going to a straight up kill, Sabeleye can just taunt it with Prankster and then throw status at it.

    I don't see the big threat in Froslass. Fros can be annoying if you don't play it right, but definitely not broken or should be part of a suspect test for UU.
  11. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    I agree you can just sent in something faster than it at the start and hold it to 1 layer of spikes or brining you down with DB but not getting any spikes up.
  12. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2009
    Messages:
    979
    is 2050/2100 acre / glicko2? meaning that we only need to hit either the acre or the glicko requirement?
    because i'm at 2050+ acre with no losses but my glicko2 refuses to move past 1988 which is very disheartening =[
  13. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,367
    Glicko2. But I'll be lowering the rating needed to 2025 I think.
  14. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I'd like to add that it's practically impossible for anyone who hasn't previously begun laddering on the standard ladder to make recs. Starting from scratch, I won 20 games in a row with zero losses (which brought my rating up to about 2010 +/- 96), only to subsequently lose 100 points after losing two games in a row.
  15. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,367
    2025 at 55 dev is not hard if you actually play the tier (and don't suck at it)... you only need like an 85% win ratio after 70 games or so.

    btw i'll probably freeze the standard ladder in about a week to make it so people can find battles easily on suspect. try to get your screenshot before the 21st.
  16. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,642
    2025 is not hard

    55 dev is really hard lol

    70 games (assuming you dont fuck up) x 2 ladders

    make it like the ou reqs, that's manageable
    Shiruba likes this.
  17. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    486
    1. UU has Kabutops and others as well, although other than Kabutops I don't expect other RapidSpinners to fare well against Froslass at all. With this in mind, it would be good to note how Spikes is all but guaranteed to unleash havoc on teams ill-prepared against Froslass.

    2. Honestly, Destiny Bond and how Froslass has the stats to use this move sell me on getting Froslass kicked upstairs to BL. Otherwise, I'd put it on the same level as Roserade ("Good, but certainly not an issue that can't be circumvented") as far as Spikes users are concerned.

    3. Cursed Body also makes some match-ups shakier than they should be. If I only run one move (e.g. Choice Band Scolipede Rock Slide, my UU favorite for dealing with a multitude of different threats) that can outright obliterate Froslass and the Sash kicks in alongside disabling the move I used, some Pokemon are out of luck in terms of hitting Froslass and finishing her off proper.


    Has anybody considered status afflicting Froslass? I'm talking Toxic, which can break Froslass' Sash and make Destiny Bond-ing the other Pokemon a dubious effort. I figured Crobat users, after they've successfully Taunted a Froslass, might consider Toxic-ing Froslass so its presence is limited.
  18. Andeby

    Andeby

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,009
    Seem better to just use U-turn if you have it. Froslass will probably switch out from Crobat anyway. Or hit it with a powerful Ice Beam if the Froslass user know that a U-turn won't come.
  19. Mupa97

    Mupa97

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Messages:
    79
    If you have your reqs for the standard UU ladder do you just post them here or somewhere else?
  20. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,367
    Take your screenshot and wait for me to post the thread at the end of the month.
  21. Volty

    Volty formerly TeraVoltage

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    345
    Frosslass Is Good but definetly not ban worthy. Sure its taunt is usefull and cursed body hax is there, but isnt it a bit predictable? People have already stated thing like crustle, rhyperior and others that only allow it to get up 1 layer of spikes. Against anyone good destiny bond will be useless unless they play it really well. Plus I'm just wondering why people only got suspicious of frosslass now rather then way before this.

    The bulky set I have not used much personaly, but I feel that it can be toxic'd to be worn down easier. Not to mention its weak to all entry hazards, and its defenses are not allowing multiple hits to be tank'd. Unless you can get off a spin the set can be worn down easily, making the amazing spinblocker power not the best around. What I'm really trying to say tho is yes, its a huge boon to offensive teams but, It can be easily handled if you know how to play. So no ban from me.
  22. Blue_Star

    Blue_Star
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    762
    On Froslass: yes, i think it's broken. I've tested it for a long time, and, even vs seemingly good players (dudes with top 10), it does excepcionally well. In like 70% of the time, it gets 1-2 layers up AND DB's something. Imo it should be banned because it puts you on an advantage far too easily, especially considering it has STABs that are super effective on the stuff that normally would be an option to prevent it from spiking, namely Xatu, Azelf, Crobat, etc. Not to mention it can spin block and usually cripple the common spinners (except for like Kabutops and Toxic Cryogonal, but they are RU, even though they're good IMO).

    On the current voting requirements, I think they're too high. I'm currently have 2152 ± 74 in the ladder, and I have been laddering since like 1 week. The deviation is taking far too many matches in order to lower, and this is even worse in the UU suspect testing ladder, since barely anyone plays it (there are only like 9 dudes with a <100 deviation!)
  23. Manveru123

    Manveru123

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    204

    Crustle does its job quite well, however, from what I've observed, it has two issues.

    First, its attack is nothing great. Rock Blast might seem like a great way of taking out typical Taunt-leads like Crobat or Froslass, but more often than not it will not KO them because of low damage output. If Froslass goes into offensive with Ice Beam straight away, it can 2HKO and potentialy avoid death if Rock Blast does not hit enough times (unless said Crustle is running a bulky spread). And I'm talking about a Max Attack Adamant Crustle here.

    Second, Crustle is weak to both Blastoise and Hitmontop, who can not only spin in his face, but also hit him with a super effective attack (I admit, though, that not every Hitmontop runs Stone Edge).
  24. Explorer

    Explorer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Messages:
    661

    I never considered Weaville. It is a great anti-lead to counter Froslass.

    Other leads to consider for beating Froslass:
    Machamp- Stone Edge followed by Bullet Punch
    SpD Cofagrigus/Bastiodon- bounces back hazards with Magic Coat
    Scarf Krookodile/Ambipom- Beat Up destroys it, just like if you use Weaville
  25. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Professional
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Visual Media Head

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,958
    Only problem with that is that you are using either sub-optimal moves or sub-optimal Pokemon. Bastiodon sucks. Using lower tiered Pokemon to counter top threats is great, but they have to be able to do more than just counter those top threats. I've been playing around with Piloswine, and not only does he counter several very powerful Electric-type Pokemon, he packs a punch similar to tank Rhyperior with fully invested Attack, he has great bulk, he has a fantastic dual STAB that can make him tricky to switch into, and he has priority. He's not just a Raikou counter, he's a good Pokemon outside that. With abysmal attacking stats, a crippling weakness to one of the best types in the tier (Fighting) and no resistance to the other two (Fire and Electric), Bastiodon would be a liability on any team. Machamp doesn't have room on his best set (SubChamp) for a weak nonSTAB priority move. Defensive Cofagrigus has a full move set, WOW/Shadow Ball/Haze/Pain Split are all vital to its duty as Fighting-type counter. Krookodile doesn't use Beat Up well, he's a Scarf cleaner. By the time he cleans, Beat Up will have lost power because its the endgame. Weavile already wants to run Night Slash/Pursuit/Ice Punch/Ice Shard/Low Kick/Swords Dance all at the same time, he's better off breaking Sash with Night Slash and KO'ing with Pursuit. Ambipom is a mediocre Pokemon that can counter Sash Froslass (not so much bulky) and Weavile is a great check to both, but the rest of the examples are very irrelevant.

    I should probably post my thoughts on Froslass now for the record, though the discussion seems to be winding down in preparation for the actual test. I don't think Froslass breaks the tier, but I do think the tier breaks Froslass. Frolass is in a tier where it is one of the fastest Pokemon. Froslass is in a tier whose's best Pursuit-er is a nonSTAB Choice user. And most importantly Froslass is in a tier with terrible spinners. Bulky Lass would be less a problem if UU had a Tyranitar; a powerful, bulky, STAB Pursuit user. Sash Froslass would be less of a problem if more non Scarf Pokemon could outspeed and 2HKO it. And its great spiking abilities would be easily held in check if UU had decent spinners. What Froslass can do isn't inherently broken. It provides Spikes support well, a great supporter, but not overpowered. But UU isn't really prepared to deal with Froslass. If Sash was its only set, it wouldn't be broken because there are a good many counters to that. But those users mentioning the two dimensional state of Froslass are leaving out the bulky set, which can keep coming back and Spiking. It was a close decision for me, and I'll miss the best offensive Spiker since Deo-D, but I just don't think this tier is fully equipped to handle Froslass.
    Ernesto likes this.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)