-I've been using CB Heracross as a lead recently, I must say, I'm impressed. Not only can it wreak stuff early game, but it can come-in later on and wreak more stuff. Plus, with its decent bulk. It can survives Psychic attacks from Uxie, and only and extreamly slim chance to losing to Mesprit (Zen Headbutt from Scarf leads does 84.9% - 100.3%). I only frun enough speed to outrun Adament Absol. Though it also lets me get the jump on the likes of Standerd Uxe/Mesprit, lead Kabutops, and anti-lead Arcanine.
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NP: UU - Zero to Hero
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I think so now too, my idea at using Orb + 4 attacks Heracross with slow U-turns to get it in failed quite miserably. The slow U-turns would get Heracross in alright, but then after one attack and especially if I mispredicted, Heracross would be forced out. Few things are sadder than having Uxie take a heavy hit to get Heracross in, only to Close Combat a Rotom and then get OHKOed in return by HP Flying ... I might as well be Choiced. Scarf on the other hand gives Heracross some much-needed speed that can sustain a late-game sweep. His coverage is impeccable after all.
From first looks Heracross looks like a top-tier UU Pokemon, but not BL. Still, that's what I felt about Gallade as well and Gallade destroyed stall, so ... it's still very early.
@Above - I'm a bit sceptical about that speed. Heracross resists Absol's Dark moves as well as Superpower. Only way Absol is going to hurt Heracross is with Psycho Cut, but then Psycho Cut + Sucker Punch does 95% minimum to Heracross (252 Attack Adamant Absol Psycho Cut vs. 80/0 Heracross: 66.7% - 78.5%, while Sucker Punch does 28.3% - 33.6%), so not much advantage gained there. Is there something else that Heracross outspeeds?
Just so you know, Adamant Absol is 373, while +nature base 120's are 372. So if you want to outpace Zam and Sceptile (you do), you may as well use 4 more EVs to outpace Absol......
I'd recommend at least going to 389+ Speed to outpace Adamant/Modest Scarf Base 80s, as well as Swellow. You need to beat Swellow imo.
I mean I'd just use Max but w/e.
I'd recommend at least going to 389+ Speed to outpace Adamant/Modest Scarf Base 80s, as well as Swellow. You need to beat Swellow imo.
I mean I'd just use Max but w/e.
Nas
Banned deucer.
Maybe I'm weird, but I always breathe a sigh of relief when I find out my opponent is using scarf Heracross. I mean, it's alright against pure offensive teams but it has no chance of breaking through standard defenisve cores on balanced/stall teams, which is Hera's greatest strength imo. FWG crumbles at Hera's feet, why would you not want to take advantage of that...
It entirely depends on the team you're running. Mine for example fears Scarf Cross more than any other Cross. Of course, if I can catch it locked in on the right move (outpredict) then it can be easily dealt with. Overall not an easy pokemon to defeat, but so far doesn't seem to be worse than any other slowish hard hitter. Still very early though.
I agree. It fucking MURDERS anything - anything - that comes in.
Scarf has been the least effective set so far, according to me. It... isn't strong. Sub + 3 attacks has been great, CB is amazing.
The real killer is Orb + 4 attacks. It OHKOes most things slower than it, and quite a few that are faster... you can't get in anything safely. All it has to do is spam Facade and Megahorn.
I knew Orb + 4 attacks was going to be good, but sub/status? That seems like it would kill you reaaaally fast...
Consider this: the main switch-ins to Heracross can outspeed it and KO it. They can take a +1 Attack but not 2 unboosted ones. This is why Scarf picks apart offensive teams and even balance teams very effectively.
The reason I and many others run Scarf is not only because it limits switch-ins, but because it is way more versatile than the other sets. You get arguably the best revenge killer mixed with one of the best late-game sweepers that takes shit all from priority.
The other sets are too prediction based and could do nothing, especially against other balance and offense.
That is probably the worst set I've used in my experience (out of many). Very few people will let you set up, and if you manage to it doesn't really matter. Time to switch to a Substitute user and watch your health go down while you hope to hit me with Megahorn.
Really, you're not utilizing Heracross to its fullest unless you're using Scarf, 4 Attacks, SD, or Restalk. Substitute sets are meh, they either lack power or reliability.
Scarf Hera is the least threatening set imo, and this is coming from someone who's running an all out offense team. With the right team synergy, Heracross can be easily switched around, doing a grand total of shit all damage and in return providing easy set up. It can't risk predicting because its gonna be ohko'd if it doesnt guarentee the kill.
not sure if anyone has investigated, but qwilfish is p. good at taking on heracross (except sd flame orb so just stuff it if you are going to bring that up). you can bring it in on a heracross while it sets up Swords Dance and then a +2 Stone Edge will do:
79.6% - 93.7% meaning you have a good chance to just blow up on him or maybe use poison jab/waterfall.
39.9% - 47.1% unboosted stone edge just in case anyone was wondering, cb stone edge only does like 52% max or something like that. viva la qwil.
this is all with bulky spiker qwilfish, btw.
79.6% - 93.7% meaning you have a good chance to just blow up on him or maybe use poison jab/waterfall.
39.9% - 47.1% unboosted stone edge just in case anyone was wondering, cb stone edge only does like 52% max or something like that. viva la qwil.
this is all with bulky spiker qwilfish, btw.
Your definition of threatening: whichever set has the highest attack stat.
My definition of threatening: whichever set can most effectively destroy the other team.
Without the Speed boost Heracross is just another wallbreaker (albeit, one of the best). With the Speed boost it keeps its stats, can still get the 1.5 boost from guts, but can now outspeed the majority of the metagame.
lol, for me, it's definetly bandcross. It has practically no free switch ins, since it can deal massive damage toll its counters. He'll be switching a bit though, so i recommend rapid spin. Then, when his counters are weakenes, SubLee can clean up without trouble, since they share "counters". I dont bother with SD or sub versions, since their health is just drained too fast, and heavy stall is uncommon. Hitmonlee is simply better as a sub user. LO sucks, since heracross simply isnt a sweeper, and it's too slow and frailon the physical side too properly sweep. Choiced sets are the ones too use for sure
I've been saying something like this for a while, albeit differently. Choiced sets in general require much more prediction, as opposed to status orb sets which function like band with the ability to switch moves. Factor in Substitute and safe switch-ins become a thing of the past.
It's very easy to force your opponent into a position where Heracross is going to kill something regardless of what they do. Registeel, who's probably on every other team I've seen these days, is the biggest offender for allowing setups.
At this rate, Scarf will probably remain one of the most used sets regardless, and with that in mind, UU is going to lull itself into a false sense of security for one more round until people start wising up and taking full advantage of its offensive capabilities.
Yea because they can't just switch to Weezing / Moltres / Mismagius / Rotom when Heracross comes in on Registeel. Then it's just SubSubSubSubSub (or Flamethrower, Rest, Sleep Talk etc) until you die from Toxic / Flame Orb. No matter what they do huh?
And luckily for me, you already said prediction wasn't reliable when you were explaining why you prefer status orbs vs Choice.
All of your would-be arguments apply equally as much to Rhyperior. It can come in on Registeel and dominate something on the switch. Heracross has its checks, as does Rhyperior. There are a large amount of Pokemon that have this problem.
This, like other arguments of its nature, is really not going to cut it when it comes to nominations and the like.
instead of coming up with your own arguments it might be advisable for you guys to go read up on honchkrow/gallades reasonings as why hera should be gone.....
Funny story, I do recall one guy trying this with Mismagius or Rotom (I forget which one) and my Heracross actually survived with 6%. Oh dear! But that was only because I was feeling gutsy and wanted to test the true extent of Hera's capabilities. Most of the time, you're better off taking them out with Pursuit.
Also, Rhyperior is not at all on Heracross's level. As long as faster walls with STAB 4x effective moves exist (Blastoise, Milotic, Support Venusaur), Rhyperior will have reliable counters. As it is, Heracross's most reliable counter is strictly Weezing, but only if it's completely maxed in defense and Hera isn't running Facade.
Though Honchkrow's reasoning doesn't especially apply since Sucker Punch and "one attack needed" were the main arguments (at least for me), here's my Gallade paragraph.
Gallade: BL
Why has the hype died down?
The reason all the Gallade hype has died down is not because Gallade is no longer broken, it is because people just stopped using certain Pokemon which have become liabilities in the Gallade metagame. For example, it's easy to notice Gallade merely being at #8, but the fact that Pokemon such as Milotic, Chansey, and mostly Registeel usage has gone down drastically is a clue that Gallade's usage is merely suffering because people tend to just not use stall-based teams anymore.
For example:
Let x be a Pokemon that makes Y useless / not viable, but x has no effect on Z.
Y usage is normal at the beginning, so is Z usage. People realize they can completely reliably beat Y teams by using a team with x in it. So, people start using Zx. Consequently, Y users realize "Oh wow, I can't win regardless of what I do when someone uses x", so they switch to Z users. After this, Zx users realize there is no Y teams to "automatically beat", and while x isn't "bad" against other Z teams, there are still Pokemon who function even better against other Z teams, so x's usage goes down.
It's pretty clear that x is Gallade, Z represents non-stall teams and Y represents stall teams.
Why is Gallade broken?
Gallade is one of those Pokemon who people will always say "prepare more" when refuting a claim that Gallade is broken. This is because Gallade will not often completely "sweep" a team if you are using an offensive team made with 4-5 checks. This completely misses the point, in my opinion. First of all, with Gallade, stall is completely useless. Gallade fulfills the offensive characteristic against all stall-based teams, and people should not be forced to play balance or offense. Second of all, Gallade has no counters. Zero. Nothing can safely switch into Gallade in this metagame. I'm sure you don't need me to copy + paste the calculations from the Gallade thread, but the only Pokemon who can actually deal with Gallade is non-existent due to being the only effective Froslass counter and needing 176 Atk EVs to do so (Spiritomb). Arcanine does ok, but when there are so many entry hazards in this metagame, Arcanine only switches in with 50% HP, which frankly isn't enough to stop Gallade.
I'm not exactly clear on which characteristic this puts Gallade under, since "not having one safe switch in, and being able to sweep a team not made up of 6 fast normal types with little effort" isn't the clearest of statements. I'd probably lean on it being broken on the offensive characteristic, since when against certain team-types it sweeps with little effort. Against balance teams it would probably fulfilling the support characteristic since it OHKOes everything, making it too easy to sweep. In layman terms: Gallade fucks up other 'mons with little effort.
Now this wouldn't really matter if Gallade was a liability against Offense, similarly why Blissey and Chansey aren't Uber or BL respectively for easily beating certain types of Pokemon or teams. Gallade is far from a liability on offense, however. With 284 Speed, Gallade ties at worst with other base 80s (who are forced to run slow spreads most of the time, unfortunately), and simply outspeeds a good chunk of the tier. Better yet, Offensive Pokemon have trouble switching into any sort of attack from Gallade, considering that it can OHKO the entire offensive metagame. No offensive switch is safe.
Gallade hits far to hard for this tier to handle, and it isn't easily stopped due to its priority attack OHKOing a chunk of it's revenge killers (all Ghosts, Dugtrio, Psychic-types) and excellent special bulk. It has decent Speed as well, allowing it to beat out many of the more commonly used Pokemon in UU.
Why has the hype died down?
The reason all the Gallade hype has died down is not because Gallade is no longer broken, it is because people just stopped using certain Pokemon which have become liabilities in the Gallade metagame. For example, it's easy to notice Gallade merely being at #8, but the fact that Pokemon such as Milotic, Chansey, and mostly Registeel usage has gone down drastically is a clue that Gallade's usage is merely suffering because people tend to just not use stall-based teams anymore.
For example:
Let x be a Pokemon that makes Y useless / not viable, but x has no effect on Z.
Y usage is normal at the beginning, so is Z usage. People realize they can completely reliably beat Y teams by using a team with x in it. So, people start using Zx. Consequently, Y users realize "Oh wow, I can't win regardless of what I do when someone uses x", so they switch to Z users. After this, Zx users realize there is no Y teams to "automatically beat", and while x isn't "bad" against other Z teams, there are still Pokemon who function even better against other Z teams, so x's usage goes down.
It's pretty clear that x is Gallade, Z represents non-stall teams and Y represents stall teams.
Why is Gallade broken?
Gallade is one of those Pokemon who people will always say "prepare more" when refuting a claim that Gallade is broken. This is because Gallade will not often completely "sweep" a team if you are using an offensive team made with 4-5 checks. This completely misses the point, in my opinion. First of all, with Gallade, stall is completely useless. Gallade fulfills the offensive characteristic against all stall-based teams, and people should not be forced to play balance or offense. Second of all, Gallade has no counters. Zero. Nothing can safely switch into Gallade in this metagame. I'm sure you don't need me to copy + paste the calculations from the Gallade thread, but the only Pokemon who can actually deal with Gallade is non-existent due to being the only effective Froslass counter and needing 176 Atk EVs to do so (Spiritomb). Arcanine does ok, but when there are so many entry hazards in this metagame, Arcanine only switches in with 50% HP, which frankly isn't enough to stop Gallade.
I'm not exactly clear on which characteristic this puts Gallade under, since "not having one safe switch in, and being able to sweep a team not made up of 6 fast normal types with little effort" isn't the clearest of statements. I'd probably lean on it being broken on the offensive characteristic, since when against certain team-types it sweeps with little effort. Against balance teams it would probably fulfilling the support characteristic since it OHKOes everything, making it too easy to sweep. In layman terms: Gallade fucks up other 'mons with little effort.
Now this wouldn't really matter if Gallade was a liability against Offense, similarly why Blissey and Chansey aren't Uber or BL respectively for easily beating certain types of Pokemon or teams. Gallade is far from a liability on offense, however. With 284 Speed, Gallade ties at worst with other base 80s (who are forced to run slow spreads most of the time, unfortunately), and simply outspeeds a good chunk of the tier. Better yet, Offensive Pokemon have trouble switching into any sort of attack from Gallade, considering that it can OHKO the entire offensive metagame. No offensive switch is safe.
Gallade hits far to hard for this tier to handle, and it isn't easily stopped due to its priority attack OHKOing a chunk of it's revenge killers (all Ghosts, Dugtrio, Psychic-types) and excellent special bulk. It has decent Speed as well, allowing it to beat out many of the more commonly used Pokemon in UU.
Pay specific close attention to the bolded lines.
Without that argument and adding a 4x weakness, I don't see it holding up to Jabba/Reach's judgement. If it isn't obvious, that's what the paragraphs would be for Heracross.
-That's sort of the reason for the speed. So that I can avoid Psycho Cut. I decided not to go max/max because most base 80s use a +speed nature anyways (I use Adament Cross). Outside of that though, I can really think of anything else significent I outrun that I havn't already mentioned (well, maybe Mix-Venusaur, but who use those?). I was a tad sceptical of the speed myself when I tried it out, but overall, I've found it to be just the right number for my team.
-I guess I might as well that Spiritomb is a decent partner for Heracross lead as it takes on Alakazam with no problem and makes it a little easier taking on Ambipom.
Group 1 plays hyper offense and says ScarfCross is super threatening.
Group 2 plays bulky offense and says SubCross is super threatening.
Group 3 plays balance/stall and says SDCross is super threatening.
Really guys... it depends on your team for the reason of a specific Heracross being threatening to you. Hopefully nobody declares him broken for being versatile though, considering Venusaur can fit a similiar versatility.
Group 2 plays bulky offense and says SubCross is super threatening.
Group 3 plays balance/stall and says SDCross is super threatening.
Really guys... it depends on your team for the reason of a specific Heracross being threatening to you. Hopefully nobody declares him broken for being versatile though, considering Venusaur can fit a similiar versatility.
Quoted for truth
Comparing him to Venusaur won't say much since Venusaur's already skating on thin ice. If Heracross should be BL for anything, it's for posing the biggest offensive threat in UU and having a pathetic list of checks and counters.
Also, I just discovered today that +1 Megahorn OHKOs Missy with SR. lol
Also, I just discovered today that +1 Megahorn OHKOs Missy with SR. lol
I will give you fair warning before I conjure up a very very very large list of checks for Heracross unless you remove / acknowledge that you are blatantly talking out of your ass right now.
Oh my bad, I forgot people were this pedantic about adopted terminology that I have to specify the difference between checks and counters...which is why I stopped giving a shit and just lump them together all the time now.
Let's change that to "Heracross has [almost] no counters". Then compile your list based on this set:
Heracross @Toxic Orb
252 Att/252 Speed
Jolly nature
Close Combat
Megahorn
Facade
Substitute/Stone Edge
Let's start with Weezing. Bring out the NUs and HP Flying if you want, Idcare.
Let's change that to "Heracross has [almost] no counters". Then compile your list based on this set:
Heracross @Toxic Orb
252 Att/252 Speed
Jolly nature
Close Combat
Megahorn
Facade
Substitute/Stone Edge
Let's start with Weezing. Bring out the NUs and HP Flying if you want, Idcare.
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