Pretty sure he's counting the weather bonus to Fire/Water moves.
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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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yeah but under weather it also gets the 50% boost. it is normal outside of weather and in weather it gets 100bp and the type that the weather benefits. if you apply the weather boost, it comes out to 150 bp
Okay, after extensive play with Weavile, both low and high on the ladder, I'm gonna say that he is conclusively not broken. Stall and defensive teams are just too good at the moment, having gotten rid of all the really powerful Pokemon that hurt stall like Diggersby and Crawdaunt while at the same time keeping stuff like Umbreon and Florges, for Weavile to be overpowered. A few weeks ago, after Crawdaunt and the big shot Dragons got the boot, I said that Nidoking was now an S Rank Pokemon in the viability thread because he was the most dangerous attacker in the tier. I still think that holds true, but only in the sense that the BETTER attackers got the boot, not out of any sense that Nidoking suddenly got base 110 Special Attack or something insane like that. Cresselia, Mew, and Umbreon all pretty much shut down Nidoking (Nidoking has to run Focus Blast, and even then it's a very small issue for Umbreon to spam Wish+Protect until Focus Blast is out of PP).
But I digress. Weavile is an excellent Pokemon, ironically, against offensive teams. He's blindingly fast and just powerful enough, especially with the Knock Off buff, to be a small nightmare for teams lacking Scarfers or even faster Pokemon such as Mega Manectric. If the metagame were more offensive, like it were in Gen IV or Gen V, he'd be without a doubt one of the best Pokemon in the tier. However, the metagame is too defensively biased for him to have an extreme enough impact to keep him banned. I'll admit I have limited to no experience with Swords Dance Weavile, but I've found Weavile to have very few "free" turns even with the 4 Attacks Life Orb set. Currently working on that right now, but I don't know if it will change my mind much.
But I digress. Weavile is an excellent Pokemon, ironically, against offensive teams. He's blindingly fast and just powerful enough, especially with the Knock Off buff, to be a small nightmare for teams lacking Scarfers or even faster Pokemon such as Mega Manectric. If the metagame were more offensive, like it were in Gen IV or Gen V, he'd be without a doubt one of the best Pokemon in the tier. However, the metagame is too defensively biased for him to have an extreme enough impact to keep him banned. I'll admit I have limited to no experience with Swords Dance Weavile, but I've found Weavile to have very few "free" turns even with the 4 Attacks Life Orb set. Currently working on that right now, but I don't know if it will change my mind much.
I honestly am starting to think its the inherent boosts that sun/rain give that make the weather as bad as it is.
sand and hail don't have this, but imagine if they did? 150BP stone edges, 135 BP ice beams (165 blizzards, but the PP is still an issue)
I know rock types have boosted sp.defense, but that's barely an issue without t-tar with his arceus defense because of it. IIRC he is really the only commonly used competitive rock type (you can argue aggron but he plays offensively outside of his mega) and hail gets really no advantage aside from blizzard accuracy
Not to mention the boosted abilities that come with weather, we'd probably end up having to ban pretty much every swift swimmer or take that no SS + Drizzle rule from gen5OU Not to mention all the pokemon that become extreme issues just because weather. It is not nearly as broken with without weather starters because even with prankster weather starters you still have to take that extra turn and sacrifice a move slot. While weather starters are loaded with advantage and the ability to restart weather even when sleeping or on the brink of death.
it also helps that sand and hail are much harder to plan around, with a moves like moonlight or pokemon that depend on certain HP to tank certain threats, having constant residual damage on most pokemon with hail and slightly less but still a lot with hail. can make their job harder. You also have to make sure that you're not using moves light moonlight, which can really muck your recovery if you're using pokemon that depend on it like chestnaught or cresselia. I know that's also true for rain but if you're really going to try and argue that rain is not the most powerful weather you need more gen 5 experience.
And the only counter balance to weatherball I can think off is Chestnaught being immune to it, however, he can't do much back to things like Victreebell, Castform, Driftblim or Frosslass
sand and hail don't have this, but imagine if they did? 150BP stone edges, 135 BP ice beams (165 blizzards, but the PP is still an issue)
I know rock types have boosted sp.defense, but that's barely an issue without t-tar with his arceus defense because of it. IIRC he is really the only commonly used competitive rock type (you can argue aggron but he plays offensively outside of his mega) and hail gets really no advantage aside from blizzard accuracy
Not to mention the boosted abilities that come with weather, we'd probably end up having to ban pretty much every swift swimmer or take that no SS + Drizzle rule from gen5OU Not to mention all the pokemon that become extreme issues just because weather. It is not nearly as broken with without weather starters because even with prankster weather starters you still have to take that extra turn and sacrifice a move slot. While weather starters are loaded with advantage and the ability to restart weather even when sleeping or on the brink of death.
it also helps that sand and hail are much harder to plan around, with a moves like moonlight or pokemon that depend on certain HP to tank certain threats, having constant residual damage on most pokemon with hail and slightly less but still a lot with hail. can make their job harder. You also have to make sure that you're not using moves light moonlight, which can really muck your recovery if you're using pokemon that depend on it like chestnaught or cresselia. I know that's also true for rain but if you're really going to try and argue that rain is not the most powerful weather you need more gen 5 experience.
And the only counter balance to weatherball I can think off is Chestnaught being immune to it, however, he can't do much back to things like Victreebell, Castform, Driftblim or Frosslass
Oh really? Well, no one knew that!
Really? There's almost 40 Swift Swim Pokemon, and most of them are terrible, regardless of what Swift Swim boosts they get. Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops aren't "pretty much every swift swimmer". Do you think Swift Swim Mantine, Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Golduck, Armaldo, Beartic, Lumineon, etc. would be broken? Some of them would be good, sure, but they're leagues away from Kingdra and co.
In the tier* I should clarify if I said pretty much every dragon is banned (which is kind of true) would you assume Druddigon and Altaria were in there?
apologies for my lack of clarification I agree there are a lot of swift swimmers, but when you say almost 40 you're counting a lot of unevolved pokemon that are not really competitive. There are only 19 fully evolved pokemon with SS, and if take out really uncompetitive pokemon like Lumieon and Luvdisc you can debatable get down to about 15, or less depending on how stingy you want to be. Out of all these ones that could cause issues. Omastar, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Huntail, Gorebyss, Carracosta and of course Kingdra. And this is about half of that competitive list.
If drizzle is unbanned I might actually try armaldo. It a one of the few if not the only non water swift swimmer making you a bit less water/electric weak, can SD boost, and use its interesting STABS for a swift swim team. I've never used it, but it seems like its worth a shot
Edit: I forget where it was but some good player said beartic was actually sort of viable in tubers so....
Armaldo is absolutely the worst choice for Rain teams. What does it bring that Kabutops doesn't. Furthermore, Armaldo is weak to Water, so I don't know where you're going with "making you a bit less water/electric weak".
Though I will admit Qwilfish is probably one of the best Swift Swim sweepers right now. Although it lacks in raw power i.e. Omastar and Kabutops, it leads with sheer utility. Swords Dance/Waterfall/Poison Jab/Destiny Bond almost guarantees that it can muscle past some of its biggest counters. Waterfall and Poison Jab already hurt Fire, Grass, and Fairy types pretty badly, not to also mention the insane amount of damage that comes off of Rain-boosted Waterfall. Destiny Bond tops it off by effectively removing many of Qwilfish's hard offensive and defensive counters. For example, Umbreon is 3HKOed by Rain boosted +2 Waterfall (iirc correct me if I'm wrong) and can use Foul Play to end Qwilfish. Qwilfish can get out of a loss by Destiny Bonding and taking down that Pokemon with it, which opens up huge holes in either the other team's offense or defense.
I'm not sure where you're getting that calc for Umbreon. Is your Qwilfish uninvested? Are you facing PDef Umbreon?
+2 252+ Atk Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon in Rain: 321-378 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon in Rain: 321-378 (81.4 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
why are we even talking about drizzle when its not set to be tested yet for many many many more tests when the tier will likely be quite different...
No idea, but manual Rain teams is something I do want to bring up right now. I think this topic was brought up last page by someone (eaglehawk I think?) and it is pretty cool right now, and I'll explain why.
Rain Offense is the main thing, but you've got reliable setters in Uxie (bulky) Sableye/Volbeat/Liepard (Prankster), Tornadus (Prankster + Abuser), and Kingdra (Abuser) Add to that the myriad of threats you have to choose from for a rain team, and it isn't very hard to make a rain team right now. Common abusers include Kingdra, Tornadus, Raikou, Mega-Blastoise, Mega-Manectric, Cloyster, Kabutops, Omastar, Heliolisk, Moltres, Noivern, and Ludicolo just to name some. This is a fairly wide array of threats that you can choose from to make up your rain team. You've got 6 setters to choose from at worst (2 of which double as abusers) and at least 12 abusers to choose from (2 of which are also setters) Considering you should have 2-3 setters and 3-4 abusers, this gives you plenty of options, much more than in previous generations for the most part. Although manual weather teams have generally been very difficult teams to build in the past, they are perhaps as easy as ever to build right now in UU. Sure Rain (and sun) teams have to deal with Hippo and Snowman, but since auto-weather was nerfed to only last as long as weather moves themselves, this has become a much more manageable issue to overcome for manual weather teams.
Rain Offense is the main thing, but you've got reliable setters in Uxie (bulky) Sableye/Volbeat/Liepard (Prankster), Tornadus (Prankster + Abuser), and Kingdra (Abuser) Add to that the myriad of threats you have to choose from for a rain team, and it isn't very hard to make a rain team right now. Common abusers include Kingdra, Tornadus, Raikou, Mega-Blastoise, Mega-Manectric, Cloyster, Kabutops, Omastar, Heliolisk, Moltres, Noivern, and Ludicolo just to name some. This is a fairly wide array of threats that you can choose from to make up your rain team. You've got 6 setters to choose from at worst (2 of which double as abusers) and at least 12 abusers to choose from (2 of which are also setters) Considering you should have 2-3 setters and 3-4 abusers, this gives you plenty of options, much more than in previous generations for the most part. Although manual weather teams have generally been very difficult teams to build in the past, they are perhaps as easy as ever to build right now in UU. Sure Rain (and sun) teams have to deal with Hippo and Snowman, but since auto-weather was nerfed to only last as long as weather moves themselves, this has become a much more manageable issue to overcome for manual weather teams.
I meant to say grass. Also, iirc no swift swimmer had a bug STAB other than armaldo. Also, I never said it was good thank you very much
Surskit.
Sorry for sounding snarky. Didn't mean for it to come off that way.
Klefki is going to be an interesting pick right now. It's a very strong utility Pokemon, but I don't know how it's going to fare post-Dragons.
On the topic of Rain, Klefki's going to be an interesting rain-setter. Priority Rain Dance and Priority Dual Screens buffs the longevity of rain teams by a shit-ton.
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Eh thats unfortunate, but what can you do?
Klefki is very interesting. Only 2 weaknesses and a bunch of resists and immunities wil grant it plenty of switch in opportunities. But, it faces a lot of competition from sableye and tornadus since it lacks priority taunt and reliable recovery.
I think people will find it to be less frustrating without swagger and ground and electric types wilk be able to absorb the thunderwave with ease. You have krookodile, gastrodon, mega manectric and ampharos to just name a few. Lets not forget mega absol can bounce back status and spikes, but has to watch out for play rough...
Klefki is very interesting. Only 2 weaknesses and a bunch of resists and immunities wil grant it plenty of switch in opportunities. But, it faces a lot of competition from sableye and tornadus since it lacks priority taunt and reliable recovery.
I think people will find it to be less frustrating without swagger and ground and electric types wilk be able to absorb the thunderwave with ease. You have krookodile, gastrodon, mega manectric and ampharos to just name a few. Lets not forget mega absol can bounce back status and spikes, but has to watch out for play rough...
Klefki will have some nice utility. Priority T-Wave is an emergency button that can stop many sweepers, although lots of sweepers actually don't mind it as much, or are immune to it, like Heracross, Shaymin, Nidoking, Flygon, and Meganectric, while it can stop Pokemon like Cloyster, Mienshao, Victini and Darm despise it.
It also has priority dual screens, which is pretty great. Spikes is good too, but a lot of common spinners beat it 1v1 and it's generally not a very good move to have in a tier full of spinners. Toxic is another option as a middle finger to some pokemon like Florges and Slowbro, but that's it.
It also has priority dual screens, which is pretty great. Spikes is good too, but a lot of common spinners beat it 1v1 and it's generally not a very good move to have in a tier full of spinners. Toxic is another option as a middle finger to some pokemon like Florges and Slowbro, but that's it.
...Huh. I did not see that coming. Maybe because I was using Weavile himself and Rocky Helmet Forretress?
I think Klefki is gonna be way worse, but maybe that's just my playstyle. Stall and defensive Pokemon in general are my kryptonite whereas I laugh at opposing offensive teams (unless they've got Talonflame AND Aegislash but that's why I play UU now!). The problem with Priority T-Wave on some of the more dangerous Pokemon floating around is that they either KO you immediately after the T-Wave or cripple you, like Mienshao and the Fire-type nukes. Toss in a cleric and you're kinda wasting Klefki.
What common spinners beat it 1v1? The only two I can think of are Blastoise and Donphan, but you still set-up screens in their face and then switch out to a counter. They have trouble KOing you.
Klefki is good, but I don't really get why it was banned, especially at the same time Swagger was banned. Without Swagger I don't see a good reason to keep Klefki banned.
It has passable bulk (57/91/87) and statistically the best defensive typing, but is still weak to ultra-common fire attacks, and has no recovery. And it just plain doesn't have the offenses to go an offensive route.
Priority Screens are really good but definitely not ban worthy. Plenty of stuff has the speed, bulk, and/or other attributes to get screens up reliably. Plus Meowstic also has priority Screens.
Priority Spikes are okay but there is, again, stuff that has the speed and/or bulk to get spikes up. It also can't do much to stop defoggers or spinners.
None of its other moves are unique to it, as far as other pranksters go. Priority T-wave is super good but a lot of other pranksters can do that too.
It's a good team supporter and is good at what it does, but I don't think it's anywhere near broken, especially since a lot of what it can do can be done by other pranksters.
It has passable bulk (57/91/87) and statistically the best defensive typing, but is still weak to ultra-common fire attacks, and has no recovery. And it just plain doesn't have the offenses to go an offensive route.
Priority Screens are really good but definitely not ban worthy. Plenty of stuff has the speed, bulk, and/or other attributes to get screens up reliably. Plus Meowstic also has priority Screens.
Priority Spikes are okay but there is, again, stuff that has the speed and/or bulk to get spikes up. It also can't do much to stop defoggers or spinners.
None of its other moves are unique to it, as far as other pranksters go. Priority T-wave is super good but a lot of other pranksters can do that too.
It's a good team supporter and is good at what it does, but I don't think it's anywhere near broken, especially since a lot of what it can do can be done by other pranksters.
To be honest, I am actually stoked for Klefki to come back and I feel it will fare well in UU. Priority Spikes/T-Wave/Toxic are cool but with Florges and MegaToise on almost every team (look at the usage stats they are #1 and #2 respectively) Klefki can't do much except Priority Screens. I do however have a set I am planning to bring back when Klefki is allowed and I will not reveal it because I wanna keep it hush-hush, lol.
All I have to say about Weavile being gone is...good riddance. Granted I liked him but that Knock Buff has really pushed a ton of pokes to new heights (look at Crawdaunt, although he did get priority as well). Weavile was walled by Mega-Aggron if it lacked Low Kick but it's job was to come late game and clean up (imo).
All I have to say about Weavile being gone is...good riddance. Granted I liked him but that Knock Buff has really pushed a ton of pokes to new heights (look at Crawdaunt, although he did get priority as well). Weavile was walled by Mega-Aggron if it lacked Low Kick but it's job was to come late game and clean up (imo).
Klefki is going to be an interesting one. Prankster on the best defensive typing in the game is obviously two massive pros, but the abundance of Electric-types alongside the points Nightmare Vampire made with #1 being a Cleric & #2 being a Rapid Spinner + Swagger being banned means Klefki might not be as effective as it was earlier in the gen. Dual Screens seems like it's best set by a long way. I don't see Klefki staying BL, although I wouldn't be complaining if it did, which is exactly how I felt about Weavile.
Klefki also has spikes as well as screens which make it an epic lead for offensive teams. Earlier this gen (i didnt use swagger because i actually like playing the game) i used a substitute twave spikes and moonblast dazzling gleam/foul play. im not sure how viable this is but i found it could make a decent scout which could also capitalize off of its sub AND prankster to set spikes.
sad to see weavile go. now my one decent team is messed up.
sad to see weavile go. now my one decent team is messed up.
What would be considered the standard Klefki set? Barring any ones with Swagger.
screens, thunder wave, play rough
Foul Play is better though on that set, hell you could even use that set without an attacking move to make room for Spikes.
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