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OM Team Study! [Week 3:STABmons DOUBLE FEATURE with The_Eevee_General and Mr Omgness]

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by BlankZero, Jun 25, 2013.

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VOTE FOR NEXT WEEK'S METAGAME

Poll closed Jul 3, 2013.
  1. Smogon Standard Doubles

    50.0%
  2. CAP

    35.7%
  3. Pure Hackmons

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Tier Shift

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  1. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
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    Approved by Arcticblast

    OM Team Study
    Certain thread components and idea from Melee Mewtwo!
    Format (and much of the wording) stolen from Princess Bri's OU thread of the same title.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Welcome to the OM Team Study. The goal of this project is to help unite the community while improving the overall quality of the playerbase by studying the art of teambuilding at the highest level.

    What is this for?
    This project was shamelessly stolen from Melee Mewtwo. Princess Bri created an OU thread of the same type, and PsYch071c created one for UU. I stole the format from them and am just changing basic things to make it make more sense for the OM Subforum, which gets a ton of traffic already, but the ladders are less than stellar, which is frustrating for those of us who enjoy these games. The basic idea of this thread is to look at a high level player's team under the microscope and see what the community can find and learn from each team. Discussing a team helps not only you learn and think about it, but the fellow OM'rs who are new can learn by reading your post. It is a win-win situtation! Additionally, you are supplied with high-level teams to take ideas from if you like a build, and it gives us a look at what is "good" in the high-stakes Tournament metagame. This will also give new players the building blocks necessary to get themselves started in a new metagame, without the awkwardness of not even knowing where to start.

    How does it work?
    Each week (more or less) there will be a high-level team from one of the more popular metagames (as evidenced by forum activity) that will be displayed for the community as a whole to discuss. The aim of this discussion will be to analyze the team by identifying roles and explaining their purpose, investigating specific movesets and Pokemon choices, strong points of the team, flaws it may have and even questions concerning unusual or confusing aspects. Essentially, the team will serve as a model to learn from and an example to refer to. Once the discussion is over, the teambuilder will post explaining his decisions and answering any questions or false ideas concerning them. This will also allow newer players to the OM scene to get an idea of how different Metagames are played, as well as learn new strategies, new Pokemon niches, etc.

    What do I get out of it?
    • Good posting can result in nominations for a Ladybug or Community Contributor badge depending on your work in the OM subforum.
    • A good look at current tournament teams and trends.
    • Insight on how teams are built and more knowledge of the different Other Metagames out there.
    • There may be another prize or so, but it's still not worked out yet. Don't let this discourage you, however.
    • A good, intelligent thread!


    Links To Previous Weeks' Threads
    Week 1 - Arcticblast's BH Team Week 2 - FLCL's PU Team

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Week 3's Metagame is STABmons!!

    Week 3's teams are provided by The_Eevee_General AND Mr OMGness!!

    After each week, the winning Metagame will not be voted for again for the following 4-5 weeks, to allow a good rotation of games being showcased.

    Week 3: The_Eevee_General's STABmons Team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Importable (open)

    Reuniclus @ Flame Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Cosmic Power
    - Stored Power
    - Shadow Ball
    - Recover

    Tyranitar @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Crunch
    - Dragon Tail
    - Dark Void

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Heal Order
    - Rapid Spin
    - U-turn
    - Toxic Spikes

    Stoutland @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Belly Drum
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Crunch
    - Nature Power

    Magnezone @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Substitute
    - Flash Cannon

    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Earth Power
    - Air Slash
    - Rock Polish


    Week 3: Mr Omgness' STABmons Team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Importable (open)

    Azumarill @ White Herb
    Trait: Huge Power
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Shell Smash
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Waterfall
    - Ice Punch

    Politoed @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 30 SAtk
    - Perish Song
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Ice Beam

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 88 Def / 252 HP / 168 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Stealth Rock
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Gyro Ball

    Espeon @ Light Clay
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Calm Nature
    - Light Screen
    - Reflect
    - Recover
    - Psystrike

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 Spd / 252 SAtk / 252 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Water Pulse
    - Thunder
    - Psystrike

    Kyurem-Black @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Dragon Dance
    - Icicle Crash
    - Outrage


    Some things to consider are:
    • What do think was the main/inspiring idea/goal The_Eevee_General and Mr Omgness had when building their teams?
    • Are there discernible cores that they tried to build around?
    • What are the strong points of the teams?
    • What are the weak spots?
    • How could his use of certain EV/Moveset/Abilities twists help these teams vs specific threats or archetypes?
    • How do they use some underrated threats to give their teams an advantage?
    • Just about anything else you might want to comment on or ask about.

    I bolded the last one for a reason. A lot of folks seem to get intimidated by super-long posts like AgentDell's in Week 2. There's no reason why no one isn't asking questions about the teams, or even about the specific metagames in general.

    Have at it folks! 2 teams to critique and analyze!
  2. SpartanMalice

    SpartanMalice

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    391
    Having faced Omgness' teams on a regular basis and this one in particular (It's the reason why I started rain myself in this meta), I've had some pretty fun matches against this team and got quite a bit to say about it.

    The team's MVP is definitely Espeon, I managed to luck out and trick it once when I didn't know much about the set and it pretty much ruined its job for the rest of the game. That being said, Azumarill is surprisingly bulky even with no investment and managed to defeat my team after my sash kazam couldn't KO it with Energy Ball after a Shell Smash (literally left it at one HP).

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/joimslab-customgame-5878

    Here's a replay showcasing just how good Azumarill is. Shell Smash is always the best boosting move to use on it, because Belly Drum gets rid of half its health, meaning it couldn't have tanked a hit like that and needs sleep support. Of course you could run Lovely Kiss but Sawsbuck does this better in this meta with Spore and Chlorophyll/Sap Sipper, and he would then be walled by Jellicent even if he ran Aqua Jet. Shell Smash doesn't have this problem, white herb takes care of the defense drops (and that Azumarill actually survived one after a defense drop), and unlike cloyster, Azumarill packs plently of firepower even without Life Orb so running white herb is actually quite useful. The movepool here is fairly standard but I've never run Jellicent myself in this meta and it could wall that and hit back or recover from Ice Punch after boosts.

    Defensive Toed is pretty Standard. I've run this quite often myself, alternating between it and Specs Toed. Drizzle powers up Azumarill's stabs making Waterfall a definite OHKO on just about anything. And then we have Scald, which causes a burn more often than WoW hits.

    Kyurem is a little different than Azumarill. Because of that monstrous 170 Attack even walls get killed easily (I incorrectly assumed my Gliscor would survive Icicle Crash since it normally tanks some Ice Punches. It didn't. ) - physical Boltbeam coverage is nothing to scoff at, plus the strongest Outrage in the game - but DD is what makes this Kyurem so great and different from his OU version. One problem I had using this kyurem myself though is that Forretress can take any of these attacks and survive and KO with Gyro, especially after DD. This is because I rarely see a Kyurem run HP now that it's got Dragon Dance. This doesnt mean it can't tank a hit, but it's still a risky poke to use much like Flareon (low speed and frankly it still sucks) and Darmanitan. It outclasses them though because even with an SR and Gyro weakness, it gets Icicle Crash.

    That Jirachi has a spread I didn't expect. It was annoying the hell out of my team earlier today with that set (but to be fair I had the same annoyer on my team as well, just a different set). No wonder it tanked mine at 252 HP. This rachi tanked my Thunderbolt earlier (did get haxed though), survived and lived long enough to hax me back. Definitely an useful mon. Because of Serene Grace, it actually functions as both a supporter and an attacker thanks to Thunder.

    Standard Ferro does great in this meta just like in OU, because of the prevalence of Rain. SR arguably becomes more useful because of a huge threat: Yanmega, among others, like Kyu-B which is used more here than in OU. It's used more often because it now has access to both Hurricane and Aeroblast, and if Rain's common then well... and I've actually seen very few teams utilize Magnezone/Magneton so it's less likely to get trapped here. Gyro secures KOs on the many speed abusers on this tier, most notably Sawsbuck, and hell even DD Kyu-B since it wont be doing against it, even with Icicle Crash around.

    Espeon, as I mentioned earlier is the best pokemon on this set. Because of it's access to recover through Eevee's normal stab, it can now do it's job as Dual Screener much more effeciently, especially since it can switch in on Hazards anytime it wants. Because of this, you might want to take out Espeon as soon as possible. Psystrike is there to make sure it doesn't get useless after a taunt, as even without investment Psystrike should do good damage coming off 130 SpA. These dual screens help out both Azumarill and Kyurem set up, especially Kyurem because of his 125 base HP. And once Kyurem sets up twice, you're in for a hell lot of trouble, because it outspeeds any other Scarf dragon, and is also strong enough to break even the strongest of walls. +1 Kyurem is nothing to mess with either but I managed to KO it with Scarfchomp once so it's quite risky when other dragons are around. Espeon is a great mon in this meta, actually doing better defensively than offensively (fist plate/LO SS never survives priority even with a chance to set up after sleep support and focus sash lacks firepower and gets killed by hazards), just like another mon in this meta Gyarados who's more used offensively in OU but is absolutely great defensively in here.

    The weak spots of this team? Once Espeon is down, this team needs support because it has no spinner, which greatly hampers Kyurem's longevity. At least at full HP he could possibly take a Gyro Ball without his own boosts. None of these pokes like to get choiced and Magic Bounce doesn't bounce back trick.

    Overall a solid defensive core that helps it's insanely powerful offensive core set up and attack. Plus rain boosted water attacks.

    That's all for now and I'll get back to you about Eevee's team in about an hour or so. I haven't actually faced that one though, but I think I've seen Reuniclus in action once so idk.
  3. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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    I don't know all that much about STABmons, but I shall give this a go anyway, since this thread series is extremely genious :]

    Taking a look at The_Eevee_General's team, we can see that it is obviously a sand team, since he is running Tyranitar.


    First, I shall cover (what I believe is)
    ~ The Defensive Core ~
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    A defensive core of Tyranitar / Forretress is used here, as Forry is physically defensive whilst T-Tar is Specially Defensive, whilst T-Tar also maintains offensive prowess through the 252 Atk investment. Tyranitar's new move in Dark Void helps it alot since a movepool of Dark Void + Stealth Rock + Dragon Tail helps it become a bulky sleep-inducer, phazer and Stealth Rock utility all at once. Crunch is there so it doesn't become a sitting duck against bulky Substitute users that resist Dragon Tail, though Steel types still would be problematic.

    Forretress has now found some useful utility moves that it lacked before STABmons came out, since U-Turn cannot be blocked by ground types like Volt Switch, making it a switch advantage surefire. It also has reliable recovery in Heal Order, allowing it to wall phsycial threats more consistently. It synergizes quite well with Tyranitar as the only weakness it only has a single weakness which is resisted by Tyranitar, and T-Tar's main weakness is Fighting, Ground and Bug (usually physical attacks), which are all sponged perfectly well by Forretress. One thing I would change though, is to put Spikes over T-Spikes on it, since it will allow the team's offensive core to put more pressure on the opposition - the offensive core is what I am about to (try) and analyze.


    Now, it's time to look at (again, what i believe is)
    ~ The Offensive Core ~
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This is actually a popular offensive core used a lot on OU sand teams. If you take a look at Landorus and Stoutland, they are both extremely dangerous threats, as one now has a dual-STAB Sheer Force Life Orb hitting almost everything neutrally. On top of that, it also has Rock Polish to potentially sweep through entire teams. Stoutland now has access to Belly Drum + STAB ExtremeSpeed whilst also maintaining speed through Sand Rush to take care of things that can tank ESpeeds. BUT, they have a problem. Any bulky Steel type that is not hit super-effectively / is immune to Earth Power / Nature Power (EQ) will completely shit on Landorus' and Stoutland's life. Some examples are Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Bronzong. This problem is dealt with amazingly by Magnezone, as it not only hits them all super effectively, but also traps them, so they have no chance of survival. If it gets in on a Ferrothorn, it also has gets to set up a free Substitute, allowing it to not only KO the Ferrothorn, but also do massive damage to the next incoming pokemon. That is basically how that core works.

    The last part I shall cover is (this time I know what it is for sure)
    ~ The Green Fetus ~
    [​IMG]

    Reuniclus is running a late game sweeping set, utilizing it's fantastic natural bulk alongside investment in HP and defenses. Furthermore, it has Cosmic Power + Stored Power, allowing to boost defenses whilst boosting it's STAB move. After Dark types have been eliminated, this thing can be a really hard thing to deal with, as it is impossible to stall out, and also impossible to put to sleep, since The_Eevee_General knows that Spore is everywhere, giving his Reuniclus a Flame Orb to sponge those. It rounds off the team, and is a Last Resort if any of the 2 sweepers fail to... well, sweep.

    Overall, this team looks to be very good, both in offensive and defensive synergy, but it does have a huge weakness to powerful Water type attacks, and would probably be screwed over by something like Shell Smash Azumarill. But pfft, who uses that, right? >_> <_<


    Edit: I will also murder an innocent puppy be rather upset if doubles isn't the featured meta of next weak
  4. Mr Omgness

    Mr Omgness

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    216
    EeveeGeneral's team's main goal seems to be a late Stoutland or Landorus sweep.

    I see 2 cores in this team: Landorus and Stoutland make up the offensive core, each covering one side of the spectrum. TTar and Forretress provide a hazard-laying defensive core.

    Tyranitar is obviously the crux of this set providing sandstorm which benefits this team a lot as none of the team members takes damage from sand and can wear down the opponent to score some crucial KOs. Dark Void + Dragon Tail is a nice option on Tyranitar as it can neutralize the opponent's counter to it and phaze it out to reset the sleep timer. It also helps to put up rocks for more damage.

    Forretress is the 2nd member of the defensive core covering the physical side of the spectrum. With Heal Order Forretress' longevity has become much longer. Toxic Spikes are used for even more residual damage while rapid spin is primarily for Stoutland who appreciates the absence of hazards when setting up a Belly Drum.

    Reuniclus is a somewhat stand-alone defensive core and is a bit of an odd one. On the one hand it has good defenses to deal with some mons and can serve as a early game switch-in to some attacks, on the other hand it can attempt a lategame sweep with Cosmic Power. Reuniclus will have to watch out for things like Encore and Taunt and will definetely need Transform Chansey out of the way. Flame Orb's main purpose is probably to have a sleep absorber. I'm not a big fan of the set and if I would change something in the team it probably would be this guy but I've only faced this team twice or something so. It has no investment in Special Attack and gets walled hard by Steels and Darks and struggles to get through other Psychic-types as well because Shadow Ball will hit really bad. On top of that a lot of pokes can set up on it, especially shift gearers like Scizor and Metagross can come in and set up on it. All Normal-type Shell Smashers and Belly Drummers have a field day as well as Cosmic Power will hit bad without investment unless a couple of boosts are accumulated.

    The offensive core starts with a supporter: Magnezone. I really like the use of it on this team as Forretress and Ferrothorn are very common in Stabmons. It can easily dispose of them with getting a substitute in the process and thus a free attack on the switch-in as well. HP Fire is obvious to get an OHKO on Ferrothorn and Forretress (not counting Sturdy) while Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon are hard hitting STABs.

    Stoutland in sand is a scary thing to behold, EeveeGeneral can use it as a revenge killer as well to pick of weakened threats with ExtremeSpeed but the main idea is to get up an opportunity to set up a belly drum and sweep through the team. Forretress helps it by keeping the hazards off the field, Magnezone deals Forretress & Ferrothorn who would otherwise be able to hurt it with Gyro Ball. Lum Berry is mainly for Sableye's priority status moves who would otherwise stop the sweep. If EeveeGeneral can keep sand up and set up a bell drum then doom is pretty much around the corner.

    Landorus is the second setup sweeper of the team. After a Rock Polish it outspeeds pretty much anything and only fears priority. This is where it complements with Stoutland who doesnt fear priority users because of Extremespeed. If powerful priority users are still in play EeveeGeneral will most likely opt for a direct attack instead of boosting up speed. Air Slash is chosen above Aeroblast because of the Sheer Force boost (which also means no recoil from LO), Hurricane could be an option to hit even harder but EeveeGeneral apparently chooses reliability over raw power.

    Strong Points: Stoutland and Landorus are down right scary in sand. If that Stoutland gets a belly drum in then you're pretty much screwed as nothing can outspeed it. Sturdy or Focus Sash users are pretty much your only hope, unless you got something that has priority and can live a + 6 extremespeed. Landorus doesnt need a boost to hit hard and only a few mons can safely switch into it: Blissey/Chansey, Cradily (in sand). Magnezone is a very anti-meta pokemon with so many Ferrothorns and Forretress crawling around and the use of Substitute on it is a smart choice.


    Weaknesses:
    Shift Gear Metagross is a nightmare for this team as it can set up on Reuniclus and Forretress while being able to outspeed and OHKO TTar and Magnezone without a boost. After one Shift Gear Boost it steamrolls through the team, Forretress and Reuniclus are the only ones not OHKOed after 1 Shift Gear but cannot do anything in return nor stall it out. Stoutland outspeeds it even after Metagross gets a Shift Gear boost but cannot OHKO it (Naturepower does 63% max). It also doesnt care about Toxic Spikes.

    Cant really comment on the EVs and stuff because this metagame is still young and I have no idea yet how to tinker the EVs to live certain hits. In my team I didnt put much thought in EVs as for now I dont know what the most prominent pokemon and moves to survive are.


    Suggestions:
    - I'd put Gyro Ball over U-Turn on Forretress, that way it can kill quite a lot of setup sweepers like Kyurem-B and Yanmega a lot better and it isnt setup bait. Any shell smasher is hit hard by Gyro Ball and not a lot of setup sweepers can survive a second gyro ball which it gets if Sturdy is intact. With Heal Order available to Forretress U-Turn (former Volt Switch) has lost a lot of its utility on Forry as it rather heals 50% when given a free turn than U-Turning out.
    - Drop Reuniclus for something else. It is a big liability to your team imo as it lets others set up on it very very easily and it has bad coverage. It does have the surprise factor value but now that everyone knows this set you're gonna have a hard time with it :P.



    I might add more stuff later when I find out more :).
  5. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
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    Well, do to Smogon being down, and me going out of town next week, I'm going to go ahead and extend this a week or so. That gives everyone a chance to comment and whatnot. Also, the poll expired, so unless I can edit it, we will do Doubles for next week and I need teams.
  6. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Ok, I'm giving this til Friday, then I'm doing Week 4 with Doubles as the highlight (finally).

    Shoot me a team if you'd like it featured. I'll be out if town til Friday, so I might not respond, but I will try and check in as much as I can. If I like more than 1 team, I'll do another Double Feature.

    Arctic, please don't close the thread til I have Week 4 up. I hate it when you close it on me before I can CopyPasta.

    Arcticblast edit: mad
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