[on site] The Complete Damage Formula for Diamond & Pearl

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#26
Okay, I updated the guide with Burn information. Thanks to TRE once again for pointing out its absence, and to Peterko for testing it out.

Turns out that a burned Pokemon does NOT halve its attack stat! It does a x0.5 in Mod1.

Very strange. You learn new things from Pokemon everyday.

EDIT: I also updated with Tinted Lens information. Its modifier is in Mod2 and not Mod3 as previously written. Please help us test whether the Me First multiplier is done after Tinted Lens or before it. One possible way to do this is:

1) Go in a 2vs2 match with Tinted Lens Venomoth knowing Skill Swap and Lucario knowing Me First against something learning a move that's itself resistant, but not immune, to it (for example, a Slowbro, Pinsir, Hypno or Muk knowing Brick Break) and that is slower than Lucario.
2) Skill Swap Tinted Lens to Lucario.
3) The foe uses Brick Break while Lucario uses Me First. Note the damage done to that Pokemon.
4) Tell us the damage done, and the stats and levels of all the Pokemon you used. Repeat for as long as you like... the more damage numbers you get, the better.

Please help. :(
 

Boa1891

Ninja Researcher
is a Researcher Alumnus
#27
*steal's sister's DS*
I may not be able to use WiFi, but I can do testing. I'll have a result at the very latest by 9-10 tonight. Will be at a friend's house today.
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#28
I edited the guide slightly again. It turned out that Mod2 is actually done after CH and not before it, so I just swapped their places. I should have realised this before, actually, from one of the tests that is still in my PM box, but now we can confirm it after Peterko did a bit of Critical Hit tests. Thanks once again sir!

Oh, and thanks Boa1891 for willing to help. We'll be awaiting your results. :)
 

Boa1891

Ninja Researcher
is a Researcher Alumnus
#29
Since I'm here, I'll ask- Have you found out where the "defense-halving" mechanic of Explosion and Selfdestruct are in the combat formula?
 

Peterko

Never give up!
is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#31
yes it is actually in the first post, in the defense/sD part, maybe you should add it to the modifiers list, X-Act, just to make sure it won´t be missed
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#32
I updated the guide with the Selfdestruct/Explosion modifier. Also, Peterko found out that a Pokemon with 1 Defense stays with 1 Defense after the foe uses Explosion. This means that the Defense stat cannot be lower than 1.
 
#33
Just thought I would join the people expressing their congratulations/thanks for another superb guide to X-Act, Peterko, and any other anonymous contributors :)
 

Boa1891

Ninja Researcher
is a Researcher Alumnus
#35
I updated the guide with the Selfdestruct/Explosion modifier. Also, Peterko found out that a Pokemon with 1 Defense stays with 1 Defense after the foe uses Explosion. This means that the Defense stat cannot be lower than 1.
Wow, that must have been a hell of a test to pull off- Can anything even legitimately HAVE 1 defence?
Just so you know, I haven't forgotten- I'll run the test very soon, but I have 5 chapters left of the Deathly Hallows that would be really sad if I didn't read them right this instant.
 

david stone

Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#36
Chansey at level 9 or less with 0 EVs, 0 IVs, and a -Defense nature has 4 Defense. -6 Defense gives Defense/4, which brings Chansey's Defense down to 1. In fact, because the -Defense stage rounds your defense down, you can have as high as 7 Defense and it will still be 1 after you get -6 Defense stages, which allows you to use a Chansey as high as level 39.

For the stat modifier multiplier, I've always liked the form (2+x)/2 for increases, and 2/(2-x) for decreases, which x is your stage. For instance, if you have +5 defense, your final defense is

Def * (2+5)/5 = Def * 7/2 = Def * 3.5

It really shows a pattern in progression, and thus allows for easier memorization than 0.25, 2/7, 1/3, 0.4... Possibly add what you have now after the 2/2 form (so 2/8, 2/7, 2/6, 2/5, 2/4, 2/3, 2/2, 3/2...) in parentheses, or keep what you have as you have and just add this form after in parentheses.
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#37
Most (all?) Level 1 Pokemon have a Defense stat of 7 or less, so it was just a matter of taking a Level 1 hatchling. (Although somehow it needed to be protected from the CPU's attacks.)

For the record, Peterko used a Level 1 Gible with 5 Defense for the test. That way, all he needed was two Screeches to bring its defense down to 1 (5/3 = 1 rounded down). Then he exploded on it.

By the way, the only thing left for the damage formula seems to be the Me First + Tinted Lens test (at least for 1vs1). If anyone would like to join Boa1891 for the test, we'd be more than grateful.

EDIT: Peterko found out that the "Doom Desire/Future Sight always hitting for 100/100 in the random number generation part" is wrong. The random number between 85 and 100 is evaluated normally even for Doom Desire and Future Sight.
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#38
Double-posting for another update.

Peterko tested 2vs2 moves that hit all Pokemon in the field. We found out that it's not the base power of these moves (excluding Selfdestruct and Explosion) that is multiplied by 0.75, but the 0.75 is multiplied in Mod1. Very weird, but that's how it works.

Anyway, we now come to the final two things that we need to test in order for the damage formula to be 100% ready (we believe). One of them is the Me First + Tinted Lens thing.

The other one is how do moves that hit both opponents in 2vs2 work? Moves like Muddy Water, Heat Wave, Razor Leaf, etc.

We require people to test these out for us please. Thanks a lot.

We need something like this:

1) Go in a 2vs2 battle with a Pokemon that learns a move that hits both foes (there are many). Don't use a move that hits your partner as well; it needs to hit both foes and deal damage.
2) Write down also the stats of all Pokemon in the field.
3) Use that move and write down the damage it deals to those Pokemon.
4) Repeat until you drop.
5) Post this information.

Thanks a lot. :(
 

Boa1891

Ninja Researcher
is a Researcher Alumnus
#42
Lucario- Lv. 42 107 attack
Medicham- lv. 45 85 defence
Turn 1:
Lucario uses foresight on Medicham
Medicham uses mind reader on Lucario
Chimchar uses Nasty Plot
Venomoth skill swaps Tinted Lens onto Lucario
Turn 2:
Lucario uses Me First! Lucario uses Brick Break! (Medicham takes 78 damage- 32/110)
Medicham uses Brick Break! (Lucario Faints)

I have the teams set up if that's not conclusive, but for the moment my sister "needs" her DS back.
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#43
Thanks for the test Boa, even though it is inconclusive.

I would need Lucario to deal more than 78 damage... around 120 damage would be needed in order for me to start getting a clear picture of how the multipliers are placed.

Do you have any instant messaging programs? I think it's better if we meet online.
 

Peterko

Never give up!
is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#44
let´s see

18 x 75 x 107 / 85 / 50) + 2 = 35 x 1.5 x 2 x random x 1.5 / 2
88-104 x 1.5 / 2 = 78, 76, 75, 75, 74, 73, 72, 72, 71, 70, 69, 69, 68, 67, 66, 66

18 x 75 x 107 / 85 / 50) + 2 = 35 x 2 x 1.5 x random x 1.5 / 2
89-105 x 1.5 / 2 = 78, 77, 76, 75, 75, 74, 73, 72, 72, 71, 70, 69, 69, 68, 67, 66

you see, there is only one different damage (which you might never get if the order is me first before tinted lens), you should definitely try a different set up, the more damage you do the better, try to me first a move without stab, like waterfall against a water type or I don´t know what

but before you start your test, calc. the damage until mod2, which means stop before mod2, look at the number -> do the test only if that number is odd (like in this case it was 35 so it could show a difference in the order), try to get a high number at least 71 there...

oh lol X-Act is here also...damn it took me ages to calc all the possible damages :(
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#46
For fling, I think there should be a link to this for easy reference:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=379940&postcount=1016

Hopefully there aren't any items besides those that do damage/have effects with fling?
Thanks for this link.

*edit* Oh, and amazing work. Thanks!

One other question, too: All numbers in the top-level damage formula are whole numbers, except for Mod1, Mod2, Mod3, type1, and type2, right?
Thanks. Yes I think so.
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
#48
Fixed a few things from the article regarding Critical Hits (in Stat modifiers and Reflect/Light Screen in particular).
 
#49
Tested for a tiny bit with Surgo.

Heracross: 383 Attack (+ Choice Band, so 574 Attack) using Rock Slide (75 power)
Gallade: 304 HP; 157 Defense; 1/2 resistant
Donphan: 384 HP; 372 Defense; 1/2 resistant
Infernape: 286 HP; 174 Defense; neutral

Gallade - damaged to 223 hp (304 -> 223)
Donphan - 350 hp (384 -> 350)

Gallade - 140 (223 -> 140)
Donphan - 318 (350 -> 318)

Gallade - 59 (140 -> 59)
Donphan - 286 (318 -> 286)

**GALLADE KOed**
Donphan - 241 (286 -> 241)

**BRING OUT INFERNAPE**

Donphan - 207 (241 -> 207)
Infernape - 144 (286 -> 144)

*INFERNAPE KOed**
Donphan - 165 (207 -> 165)



Gallade (157 Defense):
81, 83, 81

Donphan (372 Defense):
34, 32, 32, 45, 34, 42

Infernape (174 Defense):
142


What I find interesting is that upon both KOs of a Pokémon (Gallade/Infernape was KOed first, then dealt damage to Donphan), I dealt more damage than usual. I missed once on Gallade and once versus Donphan (don't remember when), but no extra damage occurred.
 

Peterko

Never give up!
is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#50
thanks guys

let´s see

calc. 100% damage VS gallade: 98-116
actual damage: 81, 83, 81
calc. 75% damage VS gallade: 73-87

calc. 100% damage VS donphan: 42-49
actual damage: 34, 32, 32, 45, 34, 42
calc. 75% damage vs donphan: 31-37

calc. 100% damage VS infernape: 177-209
actual damage: 142
calc. 75% damage VS infernape: 132-156

looks like both multi-target and hitting all targets moves work with 75%, we´re yet not sure when exactly 75% changes to 100% (well in your case it´s easy to tell, when there´s only one oponent left it deals 100%)

we can actually tell that in the case of 2 foes, none KOed, multi-target moves will deal 75% to both, if one faints it will do 100% to the one left

for moves that hit everyone on the field, explosion/selfdestruct work different than surf, quake etc....

could you please test this? I need you to note the damage done in these situations

1 explodes, all 3 other pkmn on the field survive the hit
1 explodes, 1 faints, 2 survive -> here I need you to change the order they are hit in (depends on speed) and their position (partner-foe), try all possible combinations
1 explodes, 2 faint, 1 survives -> again change order/position

the same with surf (or quake/discharge/lava plume)