Media One Piece (spoilers!)

ナミ:なにもしらないくせに!
ルフィ:あ、なんもしらん。
ナミ:ルフィ...
ルフィ:ン?
ナミ:助けて...
ルフィ:ったりめえだ!!!!!!!!!


How high does this effort of mine rank on the extreme fanboy scale:

http://soundcloud.com/meiwakudake/we-go-1

(If you try to tell me that there was any opening song in any anime more awesome than "We Go," I will shoot you)
[youtube]8tlXlJyXnHs[/youtube]

anyways I really feel like watching the whole anime over again but that would take so long to do but still I'm strongly considering it thanks to this thread you bastards
 

Matthew

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I agree with the sentiments of user: aldaron.

Also, there is a theory that involves around Virgo's mysterious ability. Hamburger steak doesn't get stuck on someone's face just like that. Add the fact that Law was unable to stand up from the presence, and he immediately felt the force on his knees. Vergo could be translated as 'bowing down to someone', or Virgo could be translated as 'gravitational tool'. I'm pretty convinced.
I guess this doesn't make sense to me as a whole. Maybe it's just the rough translations I usually read (damn you mangahere!!) but it seems that Black Beard's power is gravity. Why would there be a second gravity fruit, as from what is seen there have been no duplicate fruits. Though I guess you might take that Black Beard's is darkness, meaning that his power is everything "dark," including black holes, but that doesn't make sense since the majority of his power comes from the ability to suck people in and then remove their powers with his Haki.

While every powerful enemy ever has always had a Devil Fruit (except Mihawk I guess...) maybe it would be a change of pace to have just a dumb, powerful enemy.

Those being said two things I don't have a good understanding of yet:
1)
how did Black Beard get two Devil Fruits. I'm pretty sure the manga talked about how if someone eats two Devil Fruits they die or something. I originally thought that it was tied to the soul of the person, but then when Law switched the hearts of Smoker and that chick the chick retained the abilities of Smoker, even though the heart, or soul, was attached to a different body. My guess is that Black Beard is either the embodiment of many different souls (see Envy in Full Metal Alchemist) or he has a deeper understanding of the Devil Fruits than Vegapunk.

2)
I don't understand Fishmen with Devil Fruits. Are they allowed to swim with the fruit or are they not allowed to surface without the fruit? Maybe I missed this in Fishmen's Island but I thought I'd rather double check then read that, what I call, a very boring arc.
 

His Eminence Lord Poppington II

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blackbeard's fruit is the yami yami no mi iirc, which indeed is the power of 'darkness'. the explanation that has been offered for blackbeard's ability to have 2 fruits is just that his 'anatomy is different' lame, i know, but there'll probably be further elaboration on it in the future.
 

Jimbo

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Matthew, fishmen with DFs can't swim, just like anyone else that eats one... And all fishmen can surface, they probably have lungs as well as gills (Arlong and his crew all surfaced without DFs). It was said that Vander Decken couldn't swim anymore, hence his need for a bubble at basically all times.
 

Chou Toshio

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Hey, anyone wonder why Dekken has extra limbs when he's a bullhead shark fishman? It's not like he's a squid or Octopus fishman.
 

franky

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1)
how did Black Beard get two Devil Fruits. I'm pretty sure the manga talked about how if someone eats two Devil Fruits they die or something. I originally thought that it was tied to the soul of the person, but then when Law switched the hearts of Smoker and that chick the chick retained the abilities of Smoker, even though the heart, or soul, was attached to a different body. My guess is that Black Beard is either the embodiment of many different souls (see Envy in Full Metal Alchemist) or he has a deeper understanding of the Devil Fruits than Vegapunk.
I don't know but my guess is that Blackbeard has a three-man devil fruit that allows him to exceed the normal devil fruit numbers you can eat. The 'three-man' devil fruit is a fruit itself, so he can only have two more fruits to consume. And since he is starving himself with more power, he personally went out his way to obtain one of the strongest fruits out there, even if it means betraying a crew mate or committing the biggest sin in murdering your captain. It's a pretty wild guess and the only thing holding up this theory is his flag.
 

v

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yami yami controls gravity so I think he just sucked the sea devil out of Whitebeard

it's a weird logia as-is, and i'm sure oda will expand on it within the next eight years
 

Matthew

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yami yami controls gravity so I think he just sucked the sea devil out of Whitebeard

it's a weird logia as-is, and i'm sure oda will expand on it within the next eight years
Oda will 100% tell us what's up with Black Beard, but that doesn't mean we can't speculate.

The issue with sucking out the Devil is that you can't have two devils tied to your soul, unless it's more like the act of eating the fruit ties you to not swim AND get a devil tied to you. Which would fall in line with Black Beard having a better understanding of the fruits then Vegapunk, the man who could feed fruits to inanimate objects.

That furthers things more though. As the Devil is tied to the soul, or so it's said, how can things be given the fruits powers. Mr. 4's dog is the best example of this. How can a gun have a soul for a fruit to tie its soul to?

So it must be that everything we've been told about Devil Fruits (aside from no two Devil Fruits can exist at the same time) is a lie, or there is some misinformation about what exactly is a soul in One Piece. Either happening wouldn't leave me upset, though I'd feel if the first most happened then I'd feel a little bit cheated in the long hall.
 

Matthew

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That seems silly. If Law has the power to surgically implant anything in anyone why wouldn't he just replace souls instead of people? That chick's soul in Smoker and that Smoker's soul in that chick. The girl is a lot less capable in her body with a Devil Fruit than she is in Smoker's body. Of course it could be said that the soul is too spiritual than surgery could imply, but regardless of that fact as it's unknown. As if it's too spiritual why would the Yami Yami fruit be able to suck something like that out. It doesn't make sense.
 

v

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Law might not be aware of the soul's presence in the body, similar to how Luffy was previously unable to use his Gear abilities/croc ostensibly was unable to suck out moisture. It could be a matter of mastery. I'm not 100% serious with the sucked out his soul, but I do think the whole suction/gravity/absorption part of Yami Yami has to do with his power-sucking power, esp given that he can nullify DF powers using it.
 
First, as Mathew pointed out, the soul has (probably) nothing to do with it. I think we are going down the wrong road there. After all, you could in theory feed that elephant sword a bunch of other DFs and become a god. Oda has given us plenty of information about all this:

1. It was BBs body that allows him to hold more than 1 df. Which makes the Severus/chimera zoan dumb and highly unlikely.

2. You don't need a soul for the df to work. Yet you cant eat two.

3. The sea weakens df users, it however does not remove their df abilities.

4. Haki somehow allows the user to bypass df-given defenses.

5. The Yami Yami is the only power capable of completely negating all df-given abilities.

6. The Yami is a unique logia that allows the user to turn into darkness but not become intangible.

7. The Yami's attacks are gravity based.

8. The Yami is supposed to have the power of the devil.

The most intresting of these fact has to be the Haki and df relationship. And then the whole power of the devil thing. A little theory:

I think Blackbeard was born without the ability to use Haki. I know what Raleigh said, however BB is not normal. I think that's what is wrong with his body. He just can't use it or doesn't have it. That's when we might learn what Haki really is. The reason why i think that is because of the effect CoA has on a df user. Why would Haki allow a user to touch a Logia for example? There has to be a connection somewhere as it wouldn't make sense for a power such as haki to have a similar effect as the Yami against Logias/dfs. I mean, Haki doesn't negate dfs but i think it's damn close enough. I still can't put these pieces together though. But i think i'm on the right track.

Another reason why this makes sense is how BB was so desparate in obtaining the Yami. He must have known that it was the only way he could ever even hope to stand up against the strongest in the world. Also, someone as strong as BB gets blindsided way too often. He should be able to use CoO since he is aware of what Haki is at least.
 

TheFourthChaser

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Ey cool thread.

I always thought BB and the multiple DF powers was just something the Yami Yami no Mi was able to do, steal powers/suck them out while allowing the body to be able to handle the multiple fruits. I remember Marco mentioning something about BB's body being special so maybe it has something to do with absorbing the power through the DF and cancelling the negative effects it would have on the body with a tremendous amount of haki. I'm sure most, if not all of this, has been posted already but idgf I'm posting this anyway.
 
Theres this weird and creepy theory stating that BB has a fetus inside his body which allows him to have 2 DF . Or maybe he just have 2 hearts.

How he took WB power may have nothing to do with his power. He maybe just ate Wb heart, which is kinda nasty but its maybe the why it wasn´t shown.
 

Aldaron

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It's always good to look at this thread after masochistically clicking on the Naruto one :P

Since discussion has shifted to Blackbeard, here is a link further describing the theory franky was referring to: http://theonepieceguide.com/extras/

The upshot of this is that Blackbeard ate a Chimera Zoan type fruit that he kept secret from everyone, so his former nakama, like Marco, thought his body was "weird." This fruit allowed him to eat 2 others (3 skulls on flag), 1 being the Yami Yami (logia) and 1 being the Gura Gura (paramecia).

I like Some Hero's idea that Blackbeard might not be able to use Haki; it kinda flows with the concept that he desperately sought after the two "strongest" fruits, and is now going around the New World stealing other strong fruit. It also works with his idea of "fate," as in Haki, which takes effort to develop, isn't in his mind.

That said, I would find it a bit lame if a potential end game opponent for Luffy couldn't use Haki, so I'm gonna go ahead and say I disagree with that. Blackbeard noted Luffy's haki in Jaya and in Impel Down, implying Observation, and made Luffy bleed in Impel Down, implying Armament. Both instances can be explained away, but I'm still going with he has Haki.
 

PK Gaming

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Didn't he make him bleed because of the Yami-Yami's fruit ability to cancel ALL devil fruit powers? (It's how he could punch Ace in the neck... haki wasn't used iirc.)

I'm not sure BB getting Haki, but at this point in time I don't think he needs it.
 

Matthew

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It's always good to look at this thread after masochistically clicking on the Naruto one :P

Since discussion has shifted to Blackbeard, here is a link further describing the theory franky was referring to: http://theonepieceguide.com/extras/

The upshot of this is that Blackbeard ate a Chimera Zoan type fruit that he kept secret from everyone, so his former nakama, like Marco, thought his body was "weird." This fruit allowed him to eat 2 others (3 skulls on flag), 1 being the Yami Yami (logia) and 1 being the Gura Gura (paramecia).

I like Some Hero's idea that Blackbeard might not be able to use Haki; it kinda flows with the concept that he desperately sought after the two "strongest" fruits, and is now going around the New World stealing other strong fruit. It also works with his idea of "fate," as in Haki, which takes effort to develop, isn't in his mind.

That said, I would find it a bit lame if a potential end game opponent for Luffy couldn't use Haki, so I'm gonna go ahead and say I disagree with that. Blackbeard noted Luffy's haki in Jaya and in Impel Down, implying Observation, and made Luffy bleed in Impel Down, implying Armament. Both instances can be explained away, but I'm still going with he has Haki.
I like the Chimera Zoan theory the more I think about it. As if he transforms into a chimera he would have three heads that could individually eat a Devil Fruit. On the other hand I liked how in the comments people talked about Black Beard's flag representing the Three Fates, a strong ideology between him and his crew. Then again Oda could have avoided the entire idea of Mythical Zoans and simply given Marco blue fire, which would be lame and not as cool as a phoenix, but he could have. The fact Oda took time to introduce the idea of Mythical Zoan does give the theory more traction in its whole.

Though a Chimera only has three heads, not three souls, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Devil Fruits don't actually tie to the soul at this point. Since objects have been fed Devil Fruits; I've already said that before I think. .
 
Aldaron, it is a FACT that BB did not use Armor Haki in Inpel. Remember how Luffy is always releasing steam in Gear 2? Well that stopped as soon as he was grabbed by BB. We know Haki does not negate dfs so we know it was the Yamis doing. And thanks for that new thought(his strong belief in fate). And BB doesn't need Haki at this point. Well maybe as a defense, but he could fix that by not being so cocky all the time. Think about this, BB and his dfs versus Luffy and his Haki. I think that makes it fair and in my opinion it goes with BBs character. Haki is way less flashy, so it doesn't fit BBs personality in general.

I just don't like the chimera/severus theory that much. I mean, the dude clearly loves attention and he should have showed off his third df ability during the war. He showed the Gura and Yami in detail. Why wouldn't he show that he has another ability? His motive was clearly to make a point that he has arrived and everyone should fear him. Why not show off a third one if he had it? I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about people knowing and then not being able to use it as a surprise against someone strong. He did hide himself in that black coat, but he might have had to do that to steal WBs df(there would be no light under there, so he could in theory transform into complete darkness and sort of "fuse" with WB as darkness has no limits/boundaries and turned back into his human body but already absorbing whatever a df leaves in the host).
 

franky

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That chimera/cerebus theory sort of lost its validity when Oda revealed Blackbeard's three-clawed weapon in one chapter. It's pretty likely that he used that weapon to scar Shank's face. Add the fact that chimeras/cerebus normally have three heads and it doesn't entirely justify the 'one fruit per body' rule. It may have three heads but I'm pretty sure its still one soul/body. I'm personally keen on the three-man devil fruit theory more because it allows us to rule out the limitations of a devil fruit. A three-man fruit is stale as fuck for a concept, but its the closest thing to answer Blackbeard's questionable ability.

Also, the three skull flag could just be a symbol to characterize Blackbeard and nothing else.

It may also be a depiction of the Moirae, the three goddesses of Fate. They also happen to tie in with the crews views of fate and destiny as well as their often deadly methods for seeing how fate plays out and may be the reason behind the three skulls. The four crossbones on the flag resemble the popular eight-pointed Symbol of Chaos, which suits their theme of chaotic destiny.
 

Aldaron

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Aldaron, it is a FACT that BB did not use Armor Haki in Inpel. Remember how Luffy is always releasing steam in Gear 2? Well that stopped as soon as he was grabbed by BB. We know Haki does not negate dfs so we know it was the Yamis doing. And thanks for that new thought(his strong belief in fate). And BB doesn't need Haki at this point. Well maybe as a defense, but he could fix that by not being so cocky all the time. Think about this, BB and his dfs versus Luffy and his Haki. I think that makes it fair and in my opinion it goes with BBs character. Haki is way less flashy, so it doesn't fit BBs personality in general.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v56/c544/6.html

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v56/c544/7.html

Top left panel in the second link; seems like Luffy's body is still steaming after being grabbed by Blackbeard.

I just don't like the chimera/severus theory that much. I mean, the dude clearly loves attention and he should have showed off his third df ability during the war. He showed the Gura and Yami in detail. Why wouldn't he show that he has another ability? His motive was clearly to make a point that he has arrived and everyone should fear him. Why not show off a third one if he had it? I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about people knowing and then not being able to use it as a surprise against someone strong. He did hide himself in that black coat, but he might have had to do that to steal WBs df(there would be no light under there, so he could in theory transform into complete darkness and sort of "fuse" with WB as darkness has no limits/boundaries and turned back into his human body but already absorbing whatever a df leaves in the host).
Yea I agree with this. Chimera theory was something most of us liked early in OP, but Oda has mentioned a lot since that detracts from it.
 

Aldaron

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I have question: what actually determines if something is Logia or not?

It isn't just "is it an element," as none of Gas / Magma (element would be fire, Ace's fruit) / Sand / Smoke are elements in the traditional water / lightning / fire / light sense, and it isn't just "not solid," as Mr. 3's wax and Magellan's poison weren't considered logia, even though both could turn their entire bodies into non solid forms.

So...what exactly is a logia? -.-
 

Matthew

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It would probably be based on the Japanese elements. Smoke is a form of air, Magma is a form of fire. There are pure element fruits such as fire, like Ace, but the others are just sub-categories.

The reason poison and wax aren't Logias is probably because they have to be derived from multiple sources. So I guess Logias have to be "pure" in a sense.

Further reading on this can be found:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_(Japanese_philosophy)
 

Chou Toshio

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ロギア (logia) is a special katakana reading used on the kanji 自然系, which would normally be read "Shizen Kei" meaning "Nature type."

Zoan would normally be read "Doubutsu Kei" or "Beast type"
Paramecia would normally be read "Chou-Jin" and mean "Super Human"

But basically, based on kanji, it's not elements or anything like that-- any raw substance of nature could be a Logia (hell, there's a "swamp" logia). I'm not sure what the reasoning is exactly, but my guess is that Rubber is a refined material, while poison is a substance created by plants and animals, which is why they're not naturally existing raw substances.
 
I think it's also important that a Logia-user can turn his/her body into the respective element/force of nature.

For example, Magellan/Mr. 3 could "produce" poison/wax, but if I remember correctly, they couldn't turn into said thing.
Luffy probably doesn't count because it's a permament thing.
 

Aldaron

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It would probably be based on the Japanese elements. Smoke is a form of air, Magma is a form of fire. There are pure element fruits such as fire, like Ace, but the others are just sub-categories.

The reason poison and wax aren't Logias is probably because they have to be derived from multiple sources. So I guess Logias have to be "pure" in a sense.

Further reading on this can be found:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_%28Japanese_philosophy%29
We already discussed this on irc, but yea that actually helps me conceptualize it a bit better. Thanks for the link.

ロギア (logia) is a special katakana reading used on the kanji 自然系, which would normally be read "Shizen Kei" meaning "Nature type."

Zoan would normally be read "Doubutsu Kei" or "Beast type"
Paramecia would normally be read "Chou-Jin" and mean "Super Human"

But basically, based on kanji, it's not elements or anything like that-- any raw substance of nature could be a Logia (hell, there's a "swamp" logia). I'm not sure what the reasoning is exactly, but my guess is that Rubber is a refined material, while poison is a substance created by plants and animals, which is why they're not naturally existing raw substances.
Aaaaaaaand I know I can always count you for the clarification :P

Yea, that makes a lot of sense, and makes all the logia consistent as well, as long as you assume Caribou's Swamp Swamp was referring to the general "muddy" nature of swamps and not the geographical area known as a swamp (because otherwise lolol Tundra Tundra and Prairie Prairie logias...no)

I think it's also important that a Logia-user can turn his/her body into the respective element/force of nature.

For example, Magellan/Mr. 3 could "produce" poison/wax, but if I remember correctly, they couldn't turn into said thing.
Luffy probably doesn't count because it's a permament thing.
Magellan and Mr.3 could both turn into their respective fruits. The key points Chou brought up (elsewhere) regarding Luffy is that he is solid AND he can't turn it off, so you're probably mostly on the ball regarding the permanence thing.

So just for fun...what Logia are left?

(chou please correct any japanese issues obv)

1.) Rock Rock (Iwa Iwa no Mi)
2.) Water Water (Mizu Mizu no Mi)
3.) Blood Blood (Chi Chi no Mi)
4.) Plant Plant (shokubutsu is what I'm getting but that's long lol)
5.) Air Air (Kuuki Kuuki no Mi)
6.) Wind Wind (combine 5 and 6 if too similar) (Kaze Kaze no Mi)
7.) Oil Oil (Sekiyu Sekiyu no Mi)
8.) Wood Wood (Moku Moku no Mi, from mokuton)
9.) Cloud Cloud (Kumo Kumo no Mi)
10.) Metal Metal (I was getting Kane, but I thought that was more bell, so tetsu tetsu? I know that is iron or steel though)
11.) Steam Steam (Jouki Jouki no Mi)
12.) Clay Clay (Nendo Nendo no Mi)

What other potential logia are left? I figure, with Haki so emphasized now, we're going to get quite a few more Logia from now till the end game, so should be interesting to make some predictions based on that.
 

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