Media One Piece (spoilers!)

[Chou Toshio]

I say we keep the discussion here. I have a feeling that this is the time where Chou's arguments will finally fall and he will embrace Marineford as a solid arc

.________.


Anyway, let me preface by saying that I know that a lot of you are getting annoyed with my qualms with MF-- so let me just say that no argument regarding this should be more important than our online OP brohoods. I think our OP community tends to be more thick-skinned than other sub-groups of Smogon; that said, if anyone is getting genuinely upset over it, the discussion's not worth having.

We all know OP is a work of art; my issues with Marineforde, that make it the worst OP arc in my eyes, still leave it as superior to any given arc in almost any other given Shonen series (Eyeshield 21 and FMA are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head I'd put over Marine Forde in quality-- Bleach and Naruto have nothing coming close to Marine Forde's level).

That said:

I didn't ask for anything, as your responses that don't amount to anything other than "I disagree with facts" show.

Aldaron, I don't have anythig to say to your above post except: Story isn't judged only by "lack of logical fallacy." Of course having logical fallacy is a big detractor (and MF is riddled with it in other areas), but lack of logical fallacy does not a great story make.

The discussion was on ranking series by greatness. Obviously, there is a lot more to quality of story telling/writing than "the facts add up."

Rather, judging the quality of a story has an innate subjective factor. If I think that things would have been better if done a different way, that is a completely legitimate argument within the scope of the topic of discussion.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Chou, I think there's something you're ignoring; it was WB's lack of, say, "closer" development overall in the series that led you (and me, and I'm sure many others) into thinking WB was some kind of immortal titan. If I remember it right, even WB acknowledges this, "Sorry my sons, but I'm just a man".

What Oda showed us is that, while WB was a fucking monster, he was dying already. Just remember how its first appearance in the series was surrounded by hot nurses (he knows the finer things in life) while receiving some unknown medical treatment. He wasn't healthy already, so how would he be any better in Marineford, where Oda lampshaded WB's weakness through Marco? But, even though he was weak and got impaled (by one of this sons, no less) in the beginning of the war, he inspired fear/caution in everyone in Marineford. Even after losing half his face to Akainu, WB simply steamrolled him. The whole arc was about how powerful WB was, how his era was about to end already and how the war would hasten it, and how he could still be fucking powerful despite all this weakness.

We didn't get any development in WB before Marineford and I believe that was Oda's whole point. Luffy never met him before Marineford, he at best knew he was "rly powaful!!!" as 99% of the in-universe world and the fanbase. It was Marineford that showed WB's human side, how he only wanted a family, how weak he was despite all his ungodly strength. He battled until its bitter end, and made sure it wasn't in vain. I'd say that's good enough. Even though the whole arc had some real problems, I don't think WB is one of them.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Okay, I agree that WB's "humanity," his weakness, the fact the he could (and would) lose in this arc were important aspects of his character, and part of what makes him endearing.

I also completely agree that truly meeting WB as a man, in this arc, was important-- that his aloofness throughout the series and Luffy not really knowing him were key parts of building his role in the story-- for all the reasons you mentioned.

Still, the man dies in this arc-- and epically at that. I think that's enough to establish his humanity and weakness.

I still believe strongly that MF would have been better if WB could have maimed a significant villain (or at least given them some injury that would not be easily overcome), and that he didn't need to have lost his wits (get stabbed) or use no Haki. It's even established he has Haoushoku, so why does it never get used...?

Luffy used his even when he was poisoned and half dead-- surely WB could use it

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Yeah, you have a point. Unless WB's sickness was so debilitating that he couldn't even use Haki (but could still stand and fight because "hes so powaful guyz"), he could have done somthing to the admirals. Akainu would probably have died if Blackbeard hadn't appeared, but unless Oda's hiding something from Akainu (which is possible, we don't know much about him since the timeskip), WB didn't really do anything in-battle.

...On the other hand, no one did. WB was sick, Maelstrom dude impaled WB, Blackbeard's crew shot him "down" and those are the only reasons he died; in fact, only he died besides Ace, who had to protect Luffy from a fucking admiral. That's like no pokémon dying in a Ubers battle lol...

 

[Chou Toshio]

in fact, only he died besides Ace

Anyway, I'm sure a lot of people died besides just WB and Ace (just dying little minor off-panel deaths...).

It is possible that Akainu took on a serious injury from his WB battle that has not been revealed yet (which would actually make me feel a lot better for some reason, lol)-- but considering that he chased after BB and took on Aokiji (and won) after Marine Forde, I think it's safe to assume he's fine.

But seriously-- the guy took a Gura Gura punch to the face-- if that had Busoushoku Haki in it, how the fuck is he alive???? Or else, if it didn't have Busoushoku Haki... ._____. Why you no use the Haki WB???? lol

 

[some hero]

If it didn't have Haki he wouldn't have been able to hit Akainu duh!!! But like i always say, the Admirals probably took the CP9 techs to an unbelievable level and Akainu used both Tekkai and his own Haki to absorb the hits. Terrafying thought though. Logias with Garp-level endurance.

Also, Meigo imo is the strongest attack in the series that was named. I mean if used against another human being. Because WB didn't even get hit by it and his face was still burned off. Thats how hot it is. Although wether it touched him or not is up for debate.

But look at me, daydreaming about the great Akainu.

 

[Coronis]

Maybe because Akainu used his own Haki to defend against it?

 

[Chou Toshio]

If it didn't have Haki he wouldn't have been able to hit Akainu duh!!! But like i always say, the Admirals probably took the CP9 techs to an unbelievable level and Akainu used both Tekkai and his own Haki to absorb the hits. Terrafying thought though. Logias with Garp-level endurance.

Also, Meigo imo is the strongest attack in the series that was named. I mean if used against another human being. Because WB didn't even get hit by it and his face was still burned off. Thats how hot it is. Although wether it touched him or not is up for debate.

But look at me, daydreaming about the great Akainu.

Dude, you actually LIKE Akainu? *raise eyebrow*

Anyway, there's no way the Haki WB can generate with his fist and killer intent is weaker than that Akainu can make with the side of his head. Ahhh who knows how this crap works...

 

[nihilist]

I feel like Haki was just created to give luffy a new power up without giving him an insane new devil fruit. He just made it universal to justify the new power because you can only do so much with a rubberman

 

[Aldaron]

.________.


Anyway, let me preface by saying that I know that a lot of you are getting annoyed with my qualms with MF-- so let me just say that no argument regarding this should be more important than our online OP brohoods. I think our OP community tends to be more thick-skinned than other sub-groups of Smogon; that said, if anyone is getting genuinely upset over it, the discussion's not worth having.

The idea that you think this might even be possible is insulting... my channel 4 lyfe <3

That said, I'm not interested in continuing the Marineford convo so I'll stop. I will say I actually agree with you Chou on most of your criticisms...I do feel that Whitebeard should have done more, I do feel Squardo stabbing him was a bit unnecessary, and I do feel Ace's character should have been fleshed out more. I just don't think Whitebeard did _nothing_, that Squardo stabbing was _completely_ preposterous, or that Ace had _no_ development (basically don't agree with the extremes of those criticisms).

Marineford could certainly have been delivered a lot better, but I'm glad it happened if only to give Oda more experience. This was, after all, his first "epic" arc. I don't want to delve too deeply into this, but I'm sure most of you understand what I mean. Oda can make a lot of improvements to any future epic arc(s) by learning from Marineford. Glad we got it out of the way pre timeskip.

That said, my top 5 arcs:

1.) Enies Lobby - Do I really need to justify it? I will if I have to...

2.) Alabasta - Luffy's first loss (not counting the technical loss to Don Krieg), Zoro learning Shishi Sonson, Usopp's manly speech that drove some beloved Smogon users to tears, intro to Bon Clay's epic friendship...only negative was Vivi. Fuck Vivi.

3.) Sabaody - The precursor arc to the new era...all the supernova, the pacifistas and their vegapunk connection, an admiral, and rayleigh...just a shitton of cool stuff packed into a small arc. Super enjoyable for its present action and its future implications.

4.) Impel Down - I have to throw this here because it has some subtle future implications. First of all, giving Luffy a super strong resistance / immunity to poison is SUPER advantageous for the new world. Second, I am convinced an escaped level 6 prisoner is the 7th shichibukai, so important from that point :P Also significant because it released Crocodile, made Buggy a shichibukai and gave him his crew, and gave us a feeler into the revolutionaries.

5.) Punk Hazard - This was super tough...as TFC said, 5 isn't enough for One Piece. However, I will make locopoke angry and choose this. I swear it isn't "most recent arc bias." This intro type arc has a shitton of future implications...it introduced pirate alliances, told us the alliances, hinted at future supernova vs. yonkou clashes (fandom thinks kidd alliance goes after big mam while luffy alliance goes after kaidou), and introduced DD has a potentially "bigger" villain that most of us initially expected. We thought he would just be the haki intro to the new world...a big bad shichi to "baptise" luffy and co...but Vergo's mysterious comments about his past + DD's status as THE underground broker + his emperor's haki change things. If DD ends up being a tenryubito or a D (to justify the power behind vergo's words), this arc will have some supreme significance.

 

[X5Dragon]

I'm starting to think that WB never used haki in the war period, meaning be was already dying to begin with. No conqurer's haki, no awareness haki and he could'nt block Akainu's or any other Logia's attacks so he didn't even have armourment haki.

Yes he punched Akainu to a magma soup but remember what Akainu said devil fruits have a pecking order maybe the EQ DF was superior to magma no haki was required?

 

[Chou Toshio]

nn... I have a hard time seeing Punk Hazard as a stand-alone finished arc, but more of a transitional arc. I can't really pin my finger on why considering how much happened-- enemies defeated (and made), characters introduced and developed... there's certainly substantial content... I don't know why but the arc FEELS short. Maybe because (1) The story (and humor) was a little more scatter-brained, (2) The enemies all ultimately got curb-stomped (3) Usopp's corny-recycled speech is corny/recycled. I guess I didn't get as much sense of tension from Punk Hazard for some reason. Enemies were more annoying than ominous, and the biggest threat wasn't physically there (Joker).

So yeah, despite the substantial content of the arc, it feels transitional.

 

[TheValkyries]

Skimming through I can clearly see just this one thing, so I'll leave this.

Stop trying to give objective reasons for subjective tastes. If you liked it, great... if you didn't, also great. The objective quality of the arc is THE FUCKING SAME REGARDLESS OF YOUR FEELINGS TOWARD THE ARC. There is no way this argument will ever end if this is the way in which it is argued. If you want to argue about the objective quality go for it... arguing about how you felt about it? Completely asinine.

 

[DrRobotnik]

Stop trying to give objective reasons for subjective tastes.

I wish everyone would stop doing this about anything.

 

[some hero]

Shishi Sonson... I LOVE THAT NAME. Meigo, Entei and Shishi Sonson are the only attack names i can remember. Other than Luffys gum attacks of course. And Diable Jambe, Asura and its variations etc.

Shishi SONSON sounds sooo cool. And then the badass ShishiSHI SONSON. It rolls off the tounge so easily. Sounds so beautiful and epic.



@tehvalkry, update us on your OP journey. Anything you say here will get discussed. OP is that epic.

I agree with Chou, Punk Hazard has all the parts of an arc but feels like a much longer of that island where the SHs fight all the BW agents. I know i know, that was like three chapters but CC is such a joke that the SHs could have easily slept their way through the arc.

Also, i think Fishmen Island was worse than Skypiea. Didn't want to say it because the elephant in this thread...

 

[TheValkyries]

I find the Alabasta arc rather boring so far.

I don't care about vivi or khouza or the king or the people of Alabasta. I feel like it's a cheesy set up for "CHILDHOOD FRIENDS ON OPPOSITE SIDES *legasp~~~~*", and it's just not working well.

Also having them be tossed around like "Let's go to yuba... OH FUCK NOTHINGS HERE EXCEPT EXPOSITION, QUICK TO THE PLACE WE JUST WERE." Like that kind of shit is good for building tension if there's a strong sense of a need to hurry (Read: Literally exactly what happened on Drum Island which is the better version of this trope). However, there is no sense of hurry so it's just "well what a waste of my time."

ON TOP OF THAT, Ace is introduced and then does fucking nothing. There's a totally cool interaction to be told there but it's just nothing.

In other words: SO FAR, WHAT LITTLE DEPTH THIS ARC HAS IS RATHER SHIT.


(P.S. I'm at the chapter right after where Khouza is revealed to be the rebellion leader.)

 

[some hero]

ON TOP OF THAT, Ace is introduced and then does fucking nothing. There's a totally cool interaction to be told there but it's just nothing.

It's interesting you said this because it's at this point in the story where one of Chous biggest problems with Marineford(a later arc) is created. How Ace basically came in and said "sup im his brother, i care about him. well later". let's just say that until Marineford Luffy and Ace don't interact anymore. The relationship is shown AFTER the arc.

To Chou:

True Ace should have been shown more to the readers. I'm okay with the Luffy-Ace relationship being left out until after the fact. I mean, Luffy has never been an emotional guy and i can't really see how Oda could show us the brothers love eachother. Something that was heavily implied when Ace told the crew to take care of his little brother. Who is a monster. I think it's the perfect way for tough guy pirate brothers to interact with eachother. And we also already know Luffy cares about his friends. So put two and two together.

Like i said, the reader should have been endeared more with Ace. Unless Oda never intended it to be about Ace. Ace was just a tool to show a broken Luffy. As this story is about the SHs. Knowing Luffy loved Ace, even if it wasn't never thrown blatantly at your face, was enough for us to relate to Luffy. Most of us have siblings right? So we can understand Luffy that way. Never care about Ace. Different than other stories where you are made to care about the minor characters. Maybe Marineford was just to show a desperate and broken Luffy? And make us care more about HIM?

I find the Alabasta arc rather boring so far.

I don't care about vivi or khouza or the king or the people of Alabasta. I feel like it's a cheesy set up for "CHILDHOOD FRIENDS ON OPPOSITE SIDES *legasp~~~~*", and it's just not working well.

Also having them be tossed around like "Let's go to yuba... OH FUCK NOTHINGS HERE EXCEPT EXPOSITION, QUICK TO THE PLACE WE JUST WERE." Like that kind of shit is good for building tension if there's a strong sense of a need to hurry (Read: Literally exactly what happened on Drum Island which is the better version of this trope). However, there is no sense of hurry so it's just "well what a waste of my time."



In other words: SO FAR, WHAT LITTLE DEPTH THIS ARC HAS IS RATHER SHIT.


(P.S. I'm at the chapter right after where Khouza is revealed to be the rebellion leader.)

Alabasta was a little bit of a mess to be honest. It was the first arc that involved such a powerful villain and such a huge conflict. Up to now the biggest locale was an island with like three locations. This is a country with a bunch of cities and fighting armies. Quite the jump. Alabasta is actually made tough to re read because it even lacks the scenery that Oda developed after this arc. Whatever i say about Fishmen Island and Skypiea they are beautiful places. You can very easily tell that this arc was a little too convoluted made worse by a deserts natural ugliness and unwelcoming mood.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Knowing Luffy loved Ace, even if it wasn't never thrown blatantly at your face, was enough for us to relate to Luffy. Most of us have siblings right? So we can understand Luffy that way. Never care about Ace. Different than other stories where you are made to care about the minor characters. Maybe Marineford was just to show a desperate and broken Luffy? And make us care more about HIM?

They're brothers! Therefore, relationship/bond/character development is not required! .______.

I do think that Oda wrote their interactions very well, and that Ace has so much charisma it almost works out-- but I don't think that great character design (Ace's great design) can replace or used as a crutch for real character relationship development.

As readers, development is always required for us to understand a relationship-- especially because "family" is kind of an estranged concept in OP (save for the tidbits of Nami/Belmare, Usopp/Yasopp) for most of the early story. Especially in the D. Family-- Luffy doesn't even KNOW he has a Dad. From the moment we meet Ace, we assume he has some issue with his Dad because of his different surname from Luffy and talks of WB as his "true" father (at first, Oda lets us assume that him and Dragon had some falling out, until it's revealed Roger is Ace's Dad). Garp abandon's his grandson, and/or throws him into crap where he could get killed with reckless abandon.

Luffy's family's interactions are so bizarre, you really can't just take "we're brothers" at face value-- besides, "because they're brothers" just isn't good story telling.

 

[Christopher583]

Yeh, i stay away from the SH rankings because Ussop turns the debate ugly fast

 

[TheValkyries]

HOLY SHIT.

The Nami vs Miss Doublefinger fight could've been a really awesome and interesting fight with Nami using her knowledge of weather and the various interaction possibilities of the basic mechanics of the weather staff to win. INSTEAD WE GET SOME OF THE MOST HEAVY HANDED COMIC RELIEF EVER. The gags were good for about two panels and then rapidly became unwelcome. As soon as an interesting dramatic moment was found it went straight back to gags.

God, I'm so disappointed with that fight. Nami + that staff literally has the most potential for the most creative and interesting fights out of all the others so far, and only Ussop can maybe come close, where the rest are leagues away. But the whole fight was COMPLETELY squandered.

 

[Jimbo]

TheValkyries, are you going through the series for the first time? I forget. If you really want to see what Nami can do with her staff, wait till Enies Lobby ;)

I liked the fight with her and Miss DF - If her staff was awesome right off the bat then that'd be a bit of a deus ex machina for her... suddenly being able to use amazing fighting abilities when previously she was next to useless? I think that fight showed off exactly how witty she can be.

 

[New World Order]

HOLY SHIT.

The Nami vs Miss Doublefinger fight could've been a really awesome and interesting fight with Nami using her knowledge of weather and the various interaction possibilities of the basic mechanics of the weather staff to win. INSTEAD WE GET SOME OF THE MOST HEAVY HANDED COMIC RELIEF EVER. The gags were good for about two panels and then rapidly became unwelcome. As soon as an interesting dramatic moment was found it went straight back to gags.

God, I'm so disappointed with that fight. Nami + that staff literally has the most potential for the most creative and interesting fights out of all the others so far, and only Ussop can maybe come close, where the rest are leagues away. But the whole fight was COMPLETELY squandered.

Well considering she just got the staff, it'd make no sense for her to be a master with it, in fact I'd bet even Usopp is better with the staff atm since he made it. She'll get noticably better with each arc, but she's not going to suddenly be able to destroy things left and right.

 

[panamaxis]

Sanji vs Bon Kurei is probably one of the more underrated fights of Alabasta imo. Zoro vs Mr. 1 and Luffy vs Crocoboy were awesome no doubt but at the end of the fight where Sanji sticks out his hand and says "that was a good fight, nothing more needs to be said" was just.... idk it really resonated with me for some reason, I thought that was really cool. After nearly being beaten to death by your enemy, to have the character to hold no hard feelings and just acknowledge it was a good fight shows a lot of class on Sanji's part. It was really nice to see that it had future implications in Bon-chan helping them escape, the icing on the cake so to say.

Maybe I liked it so much because it was just a old school brawl and they were really closely matched throughout the fight until the finishing move. Ending of Zoro's fight was epic no doubt, Ussopp had the inspirational speech and it goes without saying that Luffy vs Croc was excellent but there's something to be said for simplicity and Sanji's fight shows that well.

Reminds me of Luffy v Lucci now that I think about it. Just a simple brawl -- don't stop until your opponent can't get up.

Alabasta was really good to Sanji Mr. Prince

2.) Alabasta - Luffy's first loss (not counting the technical loss to Don Krieg), Zoro learning Shishi Sonson, Usopp's manly speech that drove some beloved Smogon users to tears, intro to Bon Clay's epic friendship...only negative was Vivi. Fuck Vivi.

Pell surviving was pretty BS you've gotta admit...

 

[Aldaron]

Fucking Pell...

 

[some hero]

They're brothers! Therefore, relationship/bond/character development is not required! .______.

I do think that Oda wrote their interactions very well, and that Ace has so much charisma it almost works out-- but I don't think that great character design (Ace's great design) can replace or used as a crutch for real character relationship development.

As readers, development is always required for us to understand a relationship-- especially because "family" is kind of an estranged concept in OP (save for the tidbits of Nami/Belmare, Usopp/Yasopp) for most of the early story. Especially in the D. Family-- Luffy doesn't even KNOW he has a Dad. From the moment we meet Ace, we assume he has some issue with his Dad because of his different surname from Luffy and talks of WB as his "true" father (at first, Oda lets us assume that him and Dragon had some falling out, until it's revealed Roger is Ace's Dad). Garp abandon's his grandson, and/or throws him into crap where he could get killed with reckless abandon.

Luffy's family's interactions are so bizarre, you really can't just take "we're brothers" at face value-- besides, "because they're brothers" just isn't good story telling.

Luffy has always been portrayed as a simple guy. Not complex at all. So i think in his case it would be enough. es not made out to be some tortured soul or something like that.

TheValkyries, are you going through the series for the first time? I forget. If you really want to see what Nami can do with her staff, wait till Enies Lobby ;)

I liked the fight with her and Miss DF - If her staff was awesome right off the bat then that'd be a bit of a deus ex machina for her... suddenly being able to use amazing fighting abilities when previously she was next to useless? I think that fight showed off exactly how witty she can be.

He is, although i think hes just going to be criticizing the manga during his updates. Still, i just re read most of the Alabasta arc because of it so it's cool. I found the fight pretty funny. And i can't really remember, but in this series is there ever a fight like he was describing? You know Shikamaru vs whomever type fight? Ussop and Nami are probably the only ones who would fight like that since everyone else can smash their way through anything.

Sanji vs Bon Kurei is probably one of the more underrated fights of Alabasta imo. Zoro vs Mr. 1 and Luffy vs Crocoboy were awesome no doubt but at the end of the fight where Sanji sticks out his hand and says "that was a good fight, nothing more needs to be said" was just.... idk it really resonated with me for some reason, I thought that was really cool. After nearly being beaten to death by your enemy, to have the character to hold no hard feelings and just acknowledge it was a good fight shows a lot of class on Sanji's part. It was really nice to see that it had future implications in Bon-chan helping them escape, the icing on the cake so to say.

Maybe I liked it so much because it was just a old school brawl and they were really closely matched throughout the fight until the finishing move. Ending of Zoro's fight was epic no doubt, Ussopp had the inspirational speech and it goes without saying that Luffy vs Croc was excellent but there's something to be said for simplicity and Sanji's fight shows that well.

Reminds me of Luffy v Lucci now that I think about it. Just a simple brawl -- don't stop until your opponent can't get up.

Alabasta was really good to Sanji Mr. Prince



Pell surviving was pretty BS you've gotta admit...

I've never liked any of the Sanji fights. None. I love Sanji but he usually gets bland enemies. Bon Kurei being like the only exception. Zoro gets a freaking giraffe! And the second strongest in the enemies side which is usually also the 2nd coolest bad guy. And i also think Sanjis fighting style doesn't translate well to a manga... Kicks and more kicks... Yep.

That noodle guy was hilarious though.