Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Fling]

Archeops actually rose to S rank after Virizion and Heliolisk left the tier. I think you'll need to provide more reasoning on wether or not to drop it then Sneasel is popular.

Im pretty sure it was nommed for S during that meta mainly. Its not as easily thrown on to a team anymore as when lisk was here when p much every team would benefit from throwing on archeops whether for defogging or just to revenge lisk or viri. The meta doesn't really suit it as most of the time you're better off with a bulkier defogger or something like claydol for hazards removal. The fact that it cant come in and revenge one of the most popular offensive mons is a big hit to it. Klingklang being good again is also a problem for it.

Edit: being a good flying resist isn't a good enough to keep it in S. Like it doesnt even fit the S rank description in the current meta.
Edit 2: lmao lisk and viri left march the 1st and cheops moved to S on the 4th. Are you seriously trynna tell me that that meta had no bearing on where it is now?

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I nominate Relicanth for D+ --> C+ at the very least. Main reason being that D rank is for the absolute worst of the worst and Relicanth is actually viable in NU. Let's go over the pro's and cons. Main pro is a 4x resist to fire. We all know how big fire spam is in NU with stuff like Typhlosion, Mega Camerupt and Pyroar running around everywhere. Relicanth can punish those badly with its signature CB Head Smash. Which is something that sets it apart from other Rock types like Rhydon/Archeops in the sense that it's completely spammable thanks to Rock Head. There's not many pokemon that can actually take one of those. There's Seismitoad, Ferroseed, Poliwrath and Gurdurr. Everything else either flatout dies or is weak to Waterfall so it's risky to send them in (Rhydon), or they get 2HKO'd at least. Relicanth also takes on Archeops pretty well which not many mons can say. Finally Relicanth has pretty high base stats for an NU mon. Base 100 HP and 130 Defense is really good for a wallbreaker and it makes good defensive cores easily with stuff like Vileplume, Exeggutor or Bouffalant.

Then its flaws are pretty straightforward; it's slow and frail on the special side. However that doesn't stop Rhydon from sitting in A rank and to be fair it's not like they're that much different especially stat-wise, they're just being used for different roles. Relicanth also has to be Choice locked but when you have STAB Head Smash that's not as much of a concern most of the time. Relicanth also has some crippling weaknesses but again so does Rhydon, and Rhydon faces a lot of competition as a SR user while there's not really anything that compares to Relicanth.

So move it up please, it doesn't deserve being stuck with stuff like Pignite and Lapras js.

 

[DKFirelord]

Snow Warning Aurous is now avaible. Will this change anything for it like its partners or moves

 

[Ares]

Snow Warning Aurous is now avaible. Will this change anything for it like its partners or moves

The only possible change this could have is to make hail teams more viable, as far as affecting its viability as of right now it won't increase it.

 

[Caiahar]

Nominating Camerupt-Mega from S --> A+
I feel as if Mrupt isn't fit to be S rank, and heres why. This thing hits like a ton of bricks, no doubt about it. But it's slow as well, outspeeding only ferroseed in the meta afaik, aside from some creep i dont know about. Mrupt forces things out when he's either at full hp, or they can't do sh*t to it. Mrupt makes a lot of KO's in general, but those KO's don't matter if they can just KO you themselves. Now I see how Mrupt is played. It can usually stomach a weak STAB attack or a nonSTAB coverage move, and hit back hard. Here lies some of the problems. Mrupt doesn't necessarily OHKO all the time, and needs a 2HKO, which he can't afford to. Often times more than not, SR dmg is enough to KO with a strong move.

With more waters coming to use after Heliolisk left, Mrupt gains more problems. Previous mons who were once walled by Mlix or threatened by Gatr can usually KO Mrupt. Mrupt can't switch into much either, he relies on no hazards and staying at a high amount of HP. Scarf Mesprit, he can OHKO that, except mesprit 2HKOS him, thus requiring the use of slow U-turns/Volt Switches.
He also needs to predict a bit too much. Fire blast, or Earth Power? If the opponent has a Hariyama and a Uxie on their team, you have the risk of choosing the wrong move. One wrong move leads to his demise. His resistances are not very common, with Fire and maybe Bug being the only real relevant ones. Fighting types can screw him over too. Sure, he has WoW, but whats the use of they can KO you before you even get it? And theres a chance to miss.

Overall, move Mega Camerupt to A+, he doesnt centralize too much and has too many flaws for it to be S rank.

 

[boltsandbombers]

B+ -> B or B-

Tangela's effectiveness has severely decreased through the transition to ORAS. First off, it faces heavy competition from Vileplume as a bulky Grass-type which has quite a few advantages over Tangela, notably its strong secondary STAB move and the ability to rid itself and teammates of status conditions with Aromatherapy. In addition, the Gourgeist formes now have a significant reason to be used over Tangela as they are not complete setup fodder for Malamar, while Tangela is unfortunately. Tangela is also complete setup fodder for CroDino, another important disadvantage over Vileplume (Vileplume can lose to CroDino after a few boosts but its not complete setup fodder). I'm not saying that Vileplume is incredible, but at the very least in this particular comparison it really deserves to be at the very least one rank higher than Tangela. One of the best qualities Tangela had was being able to fully counter SD Kabutops as opposed to Vileplume, which is irrelevant now. The only thing that stops Tangela from being complete setup fodder to non Rest Talk users is Sleep Powder, which is somewhat unreliable and taken advantage of to some extent. In addition, with the loss of (Mega) Steelix, Flying-types have risen in popularity, a major thorn in the side for Tangela. There just arent as many top tier threats that Tangela can handle, as it has a poor matchup versus some of the A and S ranked Pokemon such as Archeops (2HKOs all variants), Mega Camerupt, Jynx, Scyther, Magmortar, Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Vivillon. Lastly, I just cannot see it on the same level of effectiveness along with the likes of Swellow, Quagsire, Prinplup, Lanturn, and Vileplume. Sorry spaghetti :[

Adding on to a few other noms I agree with:

A- --> B+
Ninetales's effectiveness has unfortunately decreased quite a bit as of late, and its just not the same balance destroyer as it was in XY. While the Air Balloon HP Water may be the most effective one in this metagame, losing out on either Will-O-Wisp or Psyshock can be pretty detrimental at times, as well as the lack of Leftovers recovery or the boosted power by Life Orb. While it's true that the meta has gotten somewhat bulkier, faster offensive Pokemon that have risen with the loss of Steelix such as Tauros, Scyther, Swellow, and Sneasel.

A- --> B+
Why this is still A- I have no clue, but a drop is certainly needed. The main drawback of using Weezing over another Poison type is that it cannot absorb Toxic Spikes, which can be very game changing. As stated, Weezing is just a really one-dimensional Pokemon that is quite predictable and easy to take advantage of. However, a fast Taunt from a defensive Pokemon can often be unexpected and handy at times for shutting down the likes of CroDino and Gurdurr - haven't seen it used in practice (although it's been mentioned a few times) but it seems great on paper. However, one advantage Weezing has over other defensive mons is that it cannot be worn down by entry hazards. Weezing just doesnt fit on the same level of viability as potent threats like Exeggutor, Musharna, Ludicolo, and Sawk.

A- --> A
Sawk definitely deserves to be on par with the likes of meta defining Pokemon such as Garbodor, Scyther, and Rhydon. It really just does its job as one of the most potent wallbreakers in the tier to such as high degree as it plows through anything that does not resist Close Combat (even heavily denting some resists like Mantine) and has the wide movepool to choose from to cater your teams needs depending on how much team support Sawk is given (which generally isnt much in the first place) to hit fighting resists.

 

[Punchshroom]

The reason why Zangoose doesnt completely outclass the Ursaring guts set is due to the damage output it can do on resisted hits, this lessens the need for prediction and you can make more middle ground plays w/ little drawback.

Wait, for real? How is this not applicable to Zangoose in any way? Like, I am legitimately intrigued as to why you think Zangoose isn't some sort of extreme hard hitter in its own right (which nobody can deny). All of your calcs of Ursaring doing insane damage with Facade is after a Swords Dance, and I'm certain Zangoose isn't falling behind in that regard. Hell, Zangoose's superior speed and priority means it tends to need to predict less than Ursaring. People can pivot around Ursaring with Sawk against Crunch or Mesprit against Close Combat, while Goose makes those options unviable in the first place.

Another reason why Ursaring isnt outclassed is due to its bulk. Play it down all you like but it means it can take more hits that a zangoose wouldnt normally be able to from priority and faster, weaker targets, take the hit, and retaliate with the ohko.
Finally, Ursaring isnt outclassed by toxic boost Zangoose because of another reason; Ursa can come in on status moves and receive minimal punishment, compare this to zangoose; i cant switch it in a predicted will-o and get a free facade off due to the problems around toxic boost only boosting when toxic'd. Guts has no such limitations and can hit just as hard whether burned, toxic'd or even para'd if your life depended on it. This niche might be small, but ultimately can sway momentum in games.

Greater bulk for a mon that automatically wears itself down (even without attacking, unlike LO mons) will definitely not matter in the long run. Especially when you argue that Ursaring switches into status with minimal punishment, said punishment being taking status damage on the first turn without doing anything, aka wearing yourself down even faster. And it's not like you can switch Ursaring into Scalds / Sludge Bombs very easily either because that's even less time on the field for Ursa. Zangoose maintanence is not costly anyway; all you have to do is use switching moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass) or double switches and achieve the same result. Hell, Zangoose can even activate its Orb without risk by killing something pre-Toxic Boost (usually with Close Combat), and it can certainly pull that off because it is in a much better speed tier than Ursaring, which can't even outspeed Aurorus :/. Basically, Zangoose's superior speed yields far more consistent results than relying on Ursaring's dwindling "bulk".

I also think that the quick feet set is the outclassed one, maybe not by Zangoose, which is my bad for not making that clear, but definately by swellow, which doesnt just hit a mere 106 base speed, but a full 120, which is enough for the entire relevant metagame.
252 Atk Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 235-277 (46.9 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 264-312 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see, swellow is both faster and more powerful than a quick feet ursa, and with bulk factoring a little when we are comparing pokemon that clean up in the late game, quick feet set is imo outclassed

Like I said, Quick Feet Ursaring is a mix between Swellow's speed and Zangoose's coverage, at the cost of sheer overall power. Sure, Swellow is faster and stronger, but its complete inability to bypass Rocks and Steels means it requires substantial support and is constantly wary about not using U-turn, while Ursaring can at least soften those up by itself while outspeeding and KOing the things Zangoose fails to.

Ursa ohkoes every wall in the metagame bar 1 at +2, its not similar to zangoose where it comes in on something slower and spam its powerful facade or coverage moves. Ursa's selling point is that it can 2HKO even on a resist, for example, Mawile and Rhydon, where Zangoose can only dream of doing such, if your going for the jolly set that is.
+1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 225-266 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 214-252 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Funny that Zangoose can pull off the exact same thing with the whole Swords Dance thing, except it uses its greater offensive presence to nab the boost rather than relying on 'bulk', as in not needing to take a hit. You're also going to have to give me more realistic calcs than this: would you really spend that hard-earned Swords Dance just to Facade straight into a Rhydon, aka one of the opponent's most likely switch-in to Ursaring? Well guess what Jolly Zangoose can do:

+2 252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 410-484 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Your argument for Ursaring involves not needing to care about Normal resists as it can 2HKO anyway after a boost, but why would this apply to Ursaring but not Zangoose? If Zangoose gets the boost it also doesn't care about Normal resists either, and it can also do shit like this:

+2 252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 400-472 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 360-424 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Try as you might, but I can easily show that Ursaring hardly ever outperforms Zangoose in almost any situation. The only actually noticeable difference I see Ursa's power in action is that while Zangoose's +1 Close Combat doesn't OHKO defensive Mawile, Ursaring's can....6.3% of the time. The other 93.7% of the time Ursa get just get OHKOed by +1 Foul Play after -1 Def; so much for the increased bulk.

This plays also into the team support function of Ursa, where it can break physical walls that wall the less strong mons like Scyther or Sawk or even Zangoose. It purely makes it easier for these mons to sweep.

For the record, using Ursaring alongside Zangoose is a rather poor version of 'Normal spam' as they overlap with each other far too much. The other Normal-type should be more equipped to deal with fast foes, examples being Tauros and Kangaskhan. Meanwhile, Zangoose can easily replicate Ursaring's role of wallbreaker / holepuncher feasibly.

of course, yeah, pre-orb ursa is weak, but the essence of ursa is to bring it in on mon x, predict the switch to a wall and swords dance, and bop said wall with (coverage/facade) move. Ursa does do worse versus a Hyper Offense match up due to its weakness pre-orb and lack of speed but it isnt useless, especially if the orb was activated before.

Congratulations, you finally understand how Guts Ursaring SD Zangoose works, and Goose does a better job of achieving that since it outspeeds more things off the bat, unlike Ursaring.

I disagree with the fact that i cant compare Ursaring to Pangoro. I mean, there is the obvious, one is ravaging upper tiers and the other is stuck in the realms of PU, but they do seem ominously similar if you look at the Guts Ursa and Panda together. There stats are almost identical, they have the same speed and almost the same attack, similar bulk. Their coverage is similar to the extent that both can hit every wall in the game for at least neutral damage and both dont fare well vs H.O matchups and prefer stall matchups. The differences are obvious and what makes one PU and the other viable in UU. one has an insanely good dual stab, the other doesn't. One is worn down really really easily, the other isnt. One needs an Orb which essentially kills itself in order to be powerful, and the other doesnt.

If stat comparisons were all that was needed to compare different mons with each other, the Simis would probably be ranked alongside each other, except that is obviously never the case. Even with virtually identical stat distributions, you cannot argue that the Simis are fundamentally different from each other in regards to what they are supposed to hit, and why the monkeys are compared to other Grass- / Fire- / Water-types respectively. Same with Ursa, which is why I keep drawing comparisons to Zangoose and Swellow, which are fellow Facade sweepers.

I do agree with the fact that Ursaring is OK with quick feet for the reason you stated, combining the two of swellow and zangoose in a hybrid like form however i feel like the quick feet set doesn't clean as well as swellow, which is the reason you would put either on a team. Not to mention swellow has priority and u-turn if the moment isnt quite right. Ursa's stats definately lean towards a stall breaker set with SD and guts whereas Swellow and Zangoose are more suited to cleaning in the late game.

Swellow only cleans if Rocks and Steels are out of the way entirely, while Ursaring just needs said Rocks and Steels simply weakened, though its lesser (but still not bad) power means it probably wants the opponent's whole team similiarly softened up. Also wut Zangoose more suited to late-game cleaning @_@ Zangoose has always been wallbreaker first, cleaner second, and not only does it wallbreak just as well as Ursaring, but the fact that it can even clean at all (unlike Ursa) gives it a further step up. As for Guts Ursaring, literally the only time I would consider Guts Ursa over Zangoose was when Spiritomb was still in the meta, as Ursaring can smack it with Play Rough while Zangoose cannot touch it. Otherwise, Zangoose is better than Guts Ursaring a large majority of the time. The URL I posted provides more of my in-depth thoughts about Ursaring as a whole. Really, things still aren't looking up for Ursaring in this meta: Guts is still outclassed by Zangoose, whereas the likes of Sneasel, Tauros, and Archeops are wildly rising in popularity, hurting Quick Feet Ursa's niche.

 

[Deej Dy]

Woah,Woah, Woah. I can see where you guys are coming from with a drop for my bae Ninetales, but no way should Tangela drop. This thing is a phenomenal physical wall.

Regenerator is just the start of advantages for this Shoed Shrub, it also has sleep powder to shut down any counter they may bring in besides Magmortar. The ever-annoying leech seed can also be used before it swaps out to a better check. Tangela is also not as passive as you would think, these two moves in conjunction with a swap to any decent check, can make setting up extremely difficult.
Now lets talk unreal bulk, here are some calcs:

Sneasel is quite the little pest in this metagame and no one can deny its huge viability with the combo of speed and strength right?

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 257-304 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes that is a +2 Life Orb Super Effective hit. Is Tangela phased? No, in fact it can reply with a 44-51% hp fire or a sleep powder. This is assuming Sneasel even gets a SD up in the first place.

What about that tubby fighter that Teddeh loves?
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Honestly this sumo fails to do chump change to these oodles of noodles

Still not convinced? What about that pesky KlangKlung everyone has been spamming? Lets give it a +1 because fuck Tangela, right?
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: (30.5 - 35.9%) -- approx. 26% chance to 3HKO
Well Uh.. it does more than tangela can do back....right?

4 SpA Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 100-118 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
BAM! NO WRONG! Tangy strikes again

What about Zangoose SOMETHING has to break through RIGHT?
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
I rest my case

With Megalix gone, this thing is the next best physical wall in the entire tier (No, Avalugg doesn't exist) + has a great ability, and access to Leech Seed and Sleep powder which are godly supporting moves.
I honestly want to move it up, but with Magmortar and Camerupt usage so common right now, without proper support/Mantine you may get shat on.
However, with proper support you can find yourself walling a significant portion of the metagame. Namely, Kanghaskan, Hariyama, Mawile, Physical Samurott, Klungkling, Rhydon, Gurdurr, Sawk, Zangoose and loads more.

I've been using Tangela on the ladder recently and you should to, it is your duty.

Sincerely,
Deejity Dydy

 

[Evan.]

Woah,Woah, Woah. I can see where you guys are coming from with a drop for my bae Ninetales, but no way should Tangela drop. This thing is a phenomenal physical wall.

Regenerator is just the start of advantages for this shoed Shrub, it also has sleep powder to shut down any counter they may bring in besides Magmortar. The ever-annoying leech seed can also be used before it swaps out to a better check. Tangela is also not as passive as you would think, these two moves in conjunction with a swap to any decent check, can make setting up extremely difficult.
Now lets talk unreal bulk, here are some calcs:

Sneasel is quite the little pest in this metagame and no one can deny its huge viability with the combo of speed and strength right?

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 257-304 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes that is a +2 Life Orb Super Effective hit. Is Tangela phased? No, in fact it can reply with a 44-51% hp fire or a sleep powder. This is assuming Sneasel even gets a SD up in the first place.

What about that tubby fighter that Teddeh loves?
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Honestly this sumo fails to do chump change to these oodles of noodles

Still not convinced? What about that pesky KlangKlung everyone has been spamming? Lets give it a +1 because fuck Tangela, right?
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: (30.5 - 35.9%) -- approx. 26% chance to 3HKO
Well Uh.. it does more than tangela can do back....right?

4 SpA Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 100-118 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
BAM! NO WRONG! Tangy strikes again

What about Zangoose SOMETHING has to break through RIGHT?
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
I rest my case

With Megalix gone, this thing is the next best physical wall in the entire tier (No, Avalugg doesn't exist) + has a great ability, and access to Leech Seed and Sleep powder which are godly supporting moves.
I honestly want to move it up, but with Magmortar and Camerupt usage so common right now, without proper support/Mantine you may get shat on.
However, with proper support you can find yourself walling a significant portion of the metagame. Namely, Kanghaskan, Hariyama, Mawile, Physical Samurott, Klungkling, Rhydon, Gurdurr, Sawk, Zangoose and loads more.

I've been using Tangela on the ladder recently and you should to, it is your duty.

Sincerely,
Deejity Dydy

You post all these somewhat impressive calcs, and then fail to mention that half the mons you listed get knock off which lets you cripple tangela and make it nowhere near as bulky as you make it out to be. The prevalence of Knock Off on practically every physical attacker not to mention the fact that the meta basically revolves around T-Spikes & Spikes + CM Psychics running Signal Beam and Fire Types which all shit on Tangela make it nowhere near as good as you make it out to be. If Tangela loses it's eviolite, it doesn't check any of the mons that you listed as "chump change" barring Hariyama if there are no hazards again. In fact, let me go over a list of the top ranking mons and see how "oodles of noodles" fares against them.

Hide

S-Rank
Archeops - gets 2HKO'd by acro even with it's eviolite
Camerupt-Mega - lol
Mesprit - loses special sets and physical sets either knock it off or U-turn out
Typhlosion - lol

A+ Rank
Audino-Mega - Loses to either Crodino or offensive CM
Hariyama - Gets Knocked Off has a chance to be 2HKO'd without it's eviolite after rocks
Kangaskhan - Tangela Beats it
Malamar - Gets Set-Up on for free/knocks it off
Samurott - Loses to special sets/+2 Megahorn does around 62-74 with its eviolite
Sneasel - Gets Knocked off/gets 2HKO'd if it tries to come in again
Tauros - Fire Blast 2HKOs
Uxie - Loses to CM b/c they should run signal beam or hp fire
Xatu - Can't do shit to it

A Rank
Garbodor - Spikes Fodder/risks gunk shot poison if it stays in
Jynx - lol
Klinklang - Tangela beats it but it must still be holding it's eviolite
Mawile - Tangela beats SD sets as long as it has it's eviolite, mixed is uncommon enough to say that it doesn't exist
Mismagius - Set-Up Fodder
Rhydon - Tangela Beats it
Scyther - lol
Seismitoad - Watch out for offensive variants with sludge wave but because defensive is much more common i'll say that you beat it

A- Rank
Cacturne - Beats Physical/Loses to Special
Carracosta - Beats Physical/loses to the extremely uncommon special
Exeggutor - Loses to specs and LO b/c hp fire and/or psychic
Ferroseed - Tangela beats it if HP fire
Gurdurr - Tangela beats it, but it loses it's eviolite
Liepard - Gets knocked off by physical sets/loses to special sets
Ludicolo - Loses
Magmortar - lol
Musharna - yeah i'll say that it beats musharna because most run psyshock
Ninetales - Loses
Pyroar - Loses
Rotom - 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball after rocks or is pivoted out on, loses
Rotom Fan - Loses
Sawk - can't switch in on knock off or else it can't switch in later in the game, other than that it beats it
Vivillon - Loses
Weezing - Loses
Zangoose- Gets straight 2HKO'd after rocks even with it's eviolite lol, can't switch in on knock off or else it cant switch in again

that's a fuckton of the best mons in the tier that beat tangela. definitely agreeing with bolts that this needs to go straight to B-

 

[Punchshroom]

Snow Warning Aurous is now avaible. Will this change anything for it like its partners or moves

The only possible change this could have is to make hail teams more viable, as far as affecting its viability as of right now it won't increase it.

Hail teams are bad and will never be good, however Snow Warning gives Aurorus a lot more stand-alone value.

Snow Warning Aurorus can break Sashes, making it one of the better leads in NU (yes leads are becoming a thing in NU again); it is one of the very few, if not only Pokemon in NU that can both OHKO Archeops in one fell swoop while maintaining an advantage over hazard removers such as Mantine, Prinplup, Claydol, Sandslash, etc.. unlike the Rock Blast users.

With Snow Warning, Scarf Aurorus can singlehandedly check every single weather sweeper in NU. This is a huge niche that no other Scarfer can claim. It is also fast enough to outrun the base 110s and its Blizzards do more than Jynx's Ice Beams (not even including subsequent Hail damage), so it is certainly not a slouch against other sweepers either.

Finally, Specs Aurorus can also use Snow Warning to support Fighting-type teammates, which heavily appreciate the recovery nerf of Musharna, Vileplume, and Gourgeist, while having good offensive synergy with said Fighting-types as well for great holepunching potential. Blizzard + Hail damage does roughly the same as Refrigerate Hyper Voice in terms of damage output so it doesn't even miss out on power.

Snow Warning is definitely not useless on Aurorus outside of Hail teams (>.>). Aurorus was already pretty versatile offensively before, but Snow Warning only expands its options.

 

[Karane]

Hail teams are bad and will never be good, however Snow Warning gives Aurorus a lot more stand-alone value.

Snow Warning Aurorus can break Sashes, making it one of the better leads in NU (yes leads are becoming a thing in NU again); it is one of the very few, if not only Pokemon in NU that can both OHKO Archeops in one fell swoop while maintaining an advantage over hazard removers such as Mantine, Prinplup, Claydol, Sandslash, etc.. unlike the Rock Blast users.

With Snow Warning, Scarf Aurorus can singlehandedly check every single weather sweeper in NU. This is a huge niche that no other Scarfer can claim. It is also fast enough to outrun the base 110s and its Blizzards do more than Jynx's Ice Beams (not even including subsequent Hail damage), so it is certainly not a slouch against other sweepers either.

Finally, Specs Aurorus can also use Snow Warning to support Fighting-type teammates, which heavily appreciate the recovery nerf of Musharna, Vileplume, and Gourgeist, while having good offensive synergy with said Fighting-types as well for great holepunching potential. Blizzard + Hail damage does roughly the same as Refrigerate Hyper Voice in terms of damage output so it doesn't even miss out on power.

Snow Warning is definitely not useless on Aurorus outside of Hail teams (>.>). Aurorus was already pretty versatile offensively before, but Snow Warning only expands its options.

I'm actually very excited about this as its a similar strategy to use this with AV Hariyama because with hail Hariyama can actually beat Musharna 1v1. Snow warning is also a really good one to combat weather teams and make HJAD cry. (to combat this vaccum wave poliwrath might be his next innovation lel)

Im pretty sure it was nommed for S during that meta mainly. Its not as easily thrown on to a team anymore as when lisk was here when p much every team would benefit from throwing on archeops whether for defogging or just to revenge lisk or viri. The meta doesn't really suit it as most of the time you're better off with a bulkier defogger or something like claydol for hazards removal. The fact that it cant come in and revenge one of the most popular offensive mons is a big hit to it. Klingklang being good again is also a problem for it.

Edit: being a good flying resist isn't a good enough to keep it in S. Like it doesnt even fit the S rank description in the current meta.
Edit 2: lmao lisk and viri left march the 1st and cheops moved to S on the 4th. Are you seriously trynna tell me that that meta had no bearing on where it is now?

Yeah I think Chops needs to drop A+ in my eyes. Rotom, Klingklang, SD Samurott and Sneasel are like the most common things and easily check chops offensively. Seismitoad, Rhydon, Carracosta also beat it defensively and are super popular right now. If the metagame was a lot more fast, it would be an amazing mon but right now Bulky teams shine (as a result wallbreakers are amazing.) Undoubtedly Archeops is a meta defining mon as does very good job vs multiple matchups (offense, stall, HO) but not as good as it was in Virizion meta.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Woah,Woah, Woah. I can see where you guys are coming from with a drop for my bae Ninetales, but no way should Tangela drop. This thing is a phenomenal physical wall.

Regenerator is just the start of advantages for this Shoed Shrub, it also has sleep powder to shut down any counter they may bring in besides Magmortar. The ever-annoying leech seed can also be used before it swaps out to a better check. Tangela is also not as passive as you would think, these two moves in conjunction with a swap to any decent check, can make setting up extremely difficult.
Now lets talk unreal bulk, here are some calcs:

Sneasel is quite the little pest in this metagame and no one can deny its huge viability with the combo of speed and strength right?

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 257-304 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes that is a +2 Life Orb Super Effective hit. Is Tangela phased? No, in fact it can reply with a 44-51% hp fire or a sleep powder. This is assuming Sneasel even gets a SD up in the first place.

What about that tubby fighter that Teddeh loves?
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Honestly this sumo fails to do chump change to these oodles of noodles

Still not convinced? What about that pesky KlangKlung everyone has been spamming? Lets give it a +1 because fuck Tangela, right?
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: (30.5 - 35.9%) -- approx. 26% chance to 3HKO
Well Uh.. it does more than tangela can do back....right?

4 SpA Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 100-118 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
BAM! NO WRONG! Tangy strikes again

What about Zangoose SOMETHING has to break through RIGHT?
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
I rest my case

With Megalix gone, this thing is the next best physical wall in the entire tier (No, Avalugg doesn't exist) + has a great ability, and access to Leech Seed and Sleep powder which are godly supporting moves.
I honestly want to move it up, but with Magmortar and Camerupt usage so common right now, without proper support/Mantine you may get shat on.
However, with proper support you can find yourself walling a significant portion of the metagame. Namely, Kanghaskan, Hariyama, Mawile, Physical Samurott, Klungkling, Rhydon, Gurdurr, Sawk, Zangoose and loads more.

I've been using Tangela on the ladder recently and you should to, it is your duty.

Sincerely,
Deejity Dydy

Ok. Hold your horses here, Deej. I usually agree with you on most points you make, but this is just flat out wrong. I'm honestly baffled with how much support this awful argument has received. Can-Eh-Dian hit it on the nail, but I'm still going to respond because I had brought up this nom.

What really bothers me is how insanely one-sided your argument is. You only show the positive qualities of Tangela, yet you fail to acknowledge so many of its flaws.
The most important thing that is ignored is Eviolite. Tangela relies on its Eviolite to such a high degree for its bulk that its not even funny.

Your first example is Sneasel, which only just adds on to my argument. Sneasel has STAB Knock Off and it loses absolutely nothing by just clicking Knock Off whenever it feels like it, and if you switch Tangela in on that, well, it just turns into an even more useless sack of noodles.
For example, you switch Tangela in on Knock Off. It loses 25%, but more importantly its Eviolite. The Sneasel user can just switch out and gain momentum off of a weak Grass attack or into something to absorb a potential sleep power like Vileplume or Magmortar. Afterwards, Tangela is cleanly 2HKOed.

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 195-229 (58.3 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Next, Hariyama. If you have a Tangela and plan to switch it in on a Hariyama, do you really think your opponent won't go for Knock Off? The majority of the time, Hariyama just clicks Knock Off because it has so much more reward and value for it as opposed to clicking CC. I'm not denying that it chews Close Combat's for days, but if I want to check fighting types when building a team, its much more worthwhile to use something that actually resists the damn move. Speaking of Fighting-types, every single one has Knock Off. Now if you look at Vileplume, how crippled is it by losing Black Sludge? A bit, but not to the extremely high extent of Tangela. Vileplume also cannot be crippled with Toxic or Toxic Spikes, which is a major downfall for Tangela.

I'm not going to deny that it handles Klinklang, but there are so many better mons that do that and a plethora of other things as well.

Zangoose. I'm starting to sound like a broken record here. You switch it in, Zangoose clicks Knock Off, you're 2HKOed cleanly afterwards. Congrats, nice Zangoose switch in.

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 226-267 (67.6 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

With Megalix gone, this thing is the next best physical wall in the entire tier (No, Avalugg doesn't exist) + has a great ability, and access to Leech Seed and Sleep powder which are godly supporting moves.

See, Mega Steelix was the best physical wall in the tier because of its incredibly good typing. I'm not sure if you realize how awful Grass typing is in this meta, as stated how common tspikes and Fire types are, Tangela is pressured to do too much.

Also, you say that Tangela walls a few of other physical attackers like Kangaskhan, Samurott, Gurdurr, Sawk, and Zangoose.
I'm just going to address the ones I haven't already.

In what crazy unspoken world does Tangela wall any variant of Samurott ?_?
We all know it loses to the special attacker, but...

+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 210-248 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 218-258 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It clicks SD on the switch, not exactly hard to find an opportunity to do this considering rott's solid bulk and offensive typing, and you get 2HKOed and can't OHKO back unless you're running Leaf Storm on defensive Tangela. Try to put it to sleep? The calc was shown with the standard lum berry variant, so, no. God help you if you run into the occasional Life Orb SD Samurott.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 273-322 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Sawk fits the same case as before, it legit just clicks Knock Off as you switch in and then 2HKOs afterwards. Even with an Eviolite, Sawk can 2HKO Tangela which I'm not sure if you decided to ignore.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Lastly, while Kangaskhan itself cannot rid Tangela of its Eviolite it is often paired with team support which can do that, and afterwards:

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I rest my case.

 

[Deej Dy]

You post all these somewhat impressive calcs, and then fail to mention that half the mons you listed get knock off which lets you cripple tangela and make it nowhere near as bulky as you make it out to be. The prevalence of Knock Off on practically every physical attacker not to mention the fact that the meta basically revolves around T-Spikes & Spikes + CM Psychics running Signal Beam and Fire Types which all shit on Tangela make it nowhere near as good as you make it out to be. If Tangela loses it's eviolite, it doesn't check any of the mons that you listed as "chump change" barring Hariyama if there are no hazards again. In fact, let me go over a list of the top ranking mons and see how "oodles of noodles" fares against them.

Hide

S-Rank
Archeops - gets 2HKO'd by acro even with it's eviolite
Camerupt-Mega - lol
Mesprit - loses special sets and physical sets either knock it off or U-turn out
Typhlosion - lol

A+ Rank
Audino-Mega - Loses to either Crodino or offensive CM
Hariyama - Gets Knocked Off has a chance to be 2HKO'd without it's eviolite after rocks
Kangaskhan - Tangela Beats it
Malamar - Gets Set-Up on for free/knocks it off
Samurott - Loses to special sets/+2 Megahorn does around 62-74 with its eviolite
Sneasel - Gets Knocked off/gets 2HKO'd if it tries to come in again
Tauros - Fire Blast 2HKOs
Uxie - Loses to CM b/c they should run signal beam or hp fire
Xatu - Can't do shit to it

A Rank
Garbodor - Spikes Fodder/risks gunk shot poison if it stays in
Jynx - lol
Klinklang - Tangela beats it but it must still be holding it's eviolite
Mawile - Tangela beats SD sets as long as it has it's eviolite, mixed is uncommon enough to say that it doesn't exist
Mismagius - Set-Up Fodder
Rhydon - Tangela Beats it
Scyther - lol
Seismitoad - Watch out for offensive variants with sludge wave but because defensive is much more common i'll say that you beat it

A- Rank
Cacturne - Beats Physical/Loses to Special
Carracosta - Beats Physical/loses to the extremely uncommon special
Exeggutor - Loses to specs and LO b/c hp fire and/or psychic
Ferroseed - Tangela beats it if HP fire
Gurdurr - Tangela beats it, but it loses it's eviolite
Liepard - Gets knocked off by physical sets/loses to special sets
Ludicolo - Loses
Magmortar - lol
Musharna - yeah i'll say that it beats musharna because most run psyshock
Ninetales - Loses
Pyroar - Loses
Rotom - 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball after rocks or is pivoted out on, loses
Rotom Fan - Loses
Sawk - can't switch in on knock off or else it can't switch in later in the game, other than that it beats it
Vivillon - Loses
Weezing - Loses
Zangoose- Gets straight 2HKO'd after rocks even with it's eviolite lol, can't switch in on knock off or else it cant switch in again

that's a fuckton of the best mons in the tier that beat tangela. definitely agreeing with bolts that this needs to go straight to B-

Like I said, it does what it does best, uses leech seed/sleep powder and is a pivot against the ones it loses against, while it regains 1/3 HP with Regenerator. I'm not suggesting staying in Vs Ninetales and letting it set up, you come in vs one of the mons it counters (Kanghaskan, Gurdurr) leech seed or Sleep powder away then swap out, and regain the hp you originally lost on the switch.

About T spikes and whatever, if you are using Tangela, I would hope you have proper team support and it isn't just slapped on a HO team. Namely a fire check (Mantine, etc), a CM psychic check for Xatu, which negates leech/sleep (Sneasel, etc), and hazard control for toxic spikes and the like (Prinplup, etc). These checks should be on your team anyway in this current metagame so it isn't too difficult.

Yes I didn't mention too much about eviolite seeing as my post was pretty huge and full of Tangela pictures already. Yes it loses a good amount of bulk and cannot live into a Life Orb +2 Sneasal SE STAB again, but it still has more bulk than you are giving credit for. It still walls the majority of what it did before, except Zangoose and Sneasel. About Samurott, if you think Samurott is an issue, you can also choose to run Leaf storm if you want a pure pivot.
0 SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 372-440 (103 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I even gave it some random bulk.

Arguing about knock off making Tangela bad is like arguing that Archeops is bad because of defeatist. Yes, it has its weak points, but this doesn't detract from how good of a pivot and Pokemon it is. I'm not also not arguing for A rank, I'm not expecting it to wall EVERYTHING, it has a niche as physical wall and pivot, which it fulfill exceptionally well. These are the guidelines needed for B+ rank.

Edit: I forgot to mention, two of the main "Knock-offers" Gurdurr and Hariyama (If not 80 EVs of speed or more) are slower than Tangela so if they don't knock off on the switch, Tangela can put them to sleep before they are able to knock off its eviolite. Spamming knockoff also becomes harder for opponents with Choice locked mons like Sawk if you also have a resist on the team like Mega-Audino or Mawile.

Edit 2 for Can-eh: I don't know why you think that losing its eviolite makes it completely un-viable, but it still has good bulk after, it has 115 base defence! The reason vileplume doesn't outclass is because Tangela can take more of a physical beating than Plume. It isn't 2 hit Koed by Sawk's Band Ice punch like Plume is. Also Vileplume can't put things to sleep in this meta like Tangela can without letting Klingklung/Mawile set up all over it. With access to sleep powder/leech seed and better defensive bulk, Tangela sets itself apart. Also Regenerator.

 

[Evan.]

Like I said, it does what it does best, uses leech seed/sleep powder and is a pivot against the ones it loses against, while it regains 1/3 HP with Regenerator. I'm not suggesting staying in Vs Ninetales and letting it set up, you come in vs one of the mons it counters (Kanghaskan, Gurdurr) leech seed or Sleep powder away then swap out, and regain the hp you originally lost on the switch.

About T spikes and whatever, if you are using Tangela, I would hope you have proper team support and it isn't just slapped on a HO team. Namely a fire check (Mantine, etc), a CM psychic check for Xatu, which negates leech/sleep (Sneasel, etc), and hazard control for toxic spikes and the like (Prinplup, etc). These checks should be on your team anyway in this current metagame so it isn't too difficult.

Yes I didn't mention too much about eviolite seeing as my post was pretty huge and full of Tangela pictures already. Yes it loses a good amount of bulk and cannot live into a Life Orb +2 Sneasal SE STAB again, but it still has more bulk than you are giving credit for. It still walls the majority of what it did before, except Zangoose and Sneasel. About Samurott, if you think Samurott is an issue, you can also choose to run Leaf storm if you want a pure pivot.
0 SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 372-440 (103 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I even gave it some random bulk.

Arguing about knock off making Tangela bad is like arguing that Archeops is bad because of defeatist. Yes, it has its weak points, but this doesn't detract from how good of a pivot and Pokemon it is. I'm not also not arguing for A rank, I'm not expecting it to wall EVERYTHING, it has a niche as physical wall and pivot, which it fulfill exceptionally well. These are the guidelines needed for B+ rank.

im on mobile so im only gonna adress that last part. Archeops is an awful comparison because Archeops actually has a way to get back above defeatist if it gets knocked below. Once tangela loses its eviolite it cant get it back and loses pretty much all of its walling ability. Its the fact that you cant actually pivot into physical attackers with knock off without losing your utility for the rest of the match that makes Tangela a B- mon. its not that i expect tangela to wall everything, its that it walls practically NOTHING in the S and A Ranks as you can see if you look in the hide tags. And the stuff that it does wall, Vileplume arguably does a better job due to the fact that it's not crippled by knock off.

Edit: why did you calc leaf storm on defensive tangela lol

 

[Disjunction]

I think we're all neglecting the biggest reason why Tangela has recently fallen from its throne.

The Secret

No, but really, I also support a Tangela drop. Arguably, its main niche was being the hardest stop to Gatr you could find and it clearly doesn't fill that niche anymore. It is certainly a very bulky wall that can put a stop to the likes of Kangaskhan and Klinklang, but it is otherwise very comparable in its role to Vileplume. Tangela loses to Sneasel and Zangoose so I'm not bringing those up, but Vileplume otherwise beats everything you've listed anyways. It's definitely good, but certainly outclassed as a defensive Grass-type nowadays.

In the same vein, I think Poliwrath could do with a drop to around B-? It has also lost its main niche as a Feraligatr answer and, while it is also still potent as a Klinklang and Sneasel answer, you have arguably better options for bulky Water-types nowadays. It's fairly passive and overly reliant on its Resttalk cycle to assert its field presence. I suppose if you want to talk about the Specs set that's fine, but I certainly don't think that should be what makes it B+.

ok so apparently Can-Eh-Dian sniped me with the plume mention but my point stands

 

[The Quasar]

I still have to read each today's messages in this thread. But I want to support immediately boltsandbombers about Sawk. Sawk's versately is unique in NU, you can choose between different set and roles. You can use Choice Band/Life Orb/Choice Scarf but also Black Belt as items, that is not so usual for others pokemon; its movepool around STAB Close Combat gives you many resources and so integrate to the best overall team coverage. Finally its great abilities in Mold Breaker (above all) and Sturdy, give it an absolutely remarkable power. So I support it for A- --> A

 

[ryan]

Yeah I think Chops needs to drop A+ in my eyes. Rotom, Klingklang, SD Samurott and Sneasel are like the most common things and easily check chops offensively. Seismitoad, Rhydon, Carracosta also beat it defensively and are super popular right now. If the metagame was a lot more fast, it would be an amazing mon but right now Bulky teams shine (as a result wallbreakers are amazing.) Undoubtedly Archeops is a meta defining mon as does very good job vs multiple matchups (offense, stall, HO) but not as good as it was in Virizion meta.

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 165-195 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 135-160 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

Scarf Rotom is about the easiest Pokemon to take advantage of, and people are becoming more and more prepared for Klinklang and Samurott as they rise in popularity. I fought for Archeops to go to S-rank in the post-Heliolisk/Virizion metagame because it's more than good enough for it. You no longer have to run Earthquake/Heat Wave for Heliolisk/Mega Steelix, so you can run dual STAB and then coverage based on your team (mostly Aqua Tail for Rhydon or Earthquake for other checks) and still have room for Roost. Archeops is still one of the only offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of most other offensive Pokemon and still do extremely well against bulkier Pokemon at the same time.

 

[Aasgier]

In the same vein, I think Poliwrath could do with a drop to around B-? It has also lost its main niche as a Feraligatr answer and, while it is also still potent as a Klinklang and Sneasel answer, you have arguably better options for bulky Water-types nowadays. It's fairly passive and overly reliant on its Resttalk cycle to assert its field presence. I suppose if you want to talk about the Specs set that's fine, but I certainly don't think that should be what makes it B+.

It doesn't really matter what kind of set Wrath runs, its typing, stat distribution and ability ensures it counters a wide variety of mons. That makes Wrath one of the more versatile mons in the tier imho, because it only needs to be present at decent health to counter the things it needs to. That makes Wrath still a pretty cool mon to use, because it is only one of the few rare mons with such a trait.

It counters Sneasel. It counters Klingklang. It counters SD Gatr and many other Water-types and possibly sets up on them. It can check if not counter most Fire-type. And it doesn't matter if you go Specs, Band, RestTalk, 3 attacks + status move, etc

 

[Lord Alphose]

It doesn't really matter what kind of set Wrath runs, its typing, stat distribution and ability ensures it counters a wide variety of mons. That makes Wrath one of the more versatile mons in the tier imho, because it only needs to be present at decent health to counter the things it needs to. That makes Wrath still a pretty cool mon to use, because it is only one of the few rare mons with such a trait.

It counters Sneasel. It counters Klingklang. It counters SD Gatr and many other Water-types and possibly sets up on them. It can check if not counter most Fire-type. And it doesn't matter if you go Specs, Band, RestTalk, 3 attacks + status move, etc

It doesn't counter SD Gatr, as it's not in the tier anymore.

Also, it countering Fire-types in not really a thing:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 176-207 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 170-202 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And that's the RestTalk set, which tends to run more bulk than other sets.

 

[Disjunction]

It doesn't really matter what kind of set Wrath runs, its typing, stat distribution and ability ensures it counters a wide variety of mons. That makes Wrath one of the more versatile mons in the tier imho, because it only needs to be present at decent health to counter the things it needs to. That makes Wrath still a pretty cool mon to use, because it is only one of the few rare mons with such a trait.

It counters Sneasel. It counters Klingklang. It counters SD Gatr and many other Water-types and possibly sets up on them. It can check if not counter most Fire-type. And it doesn't matter if you go Specs, Band, RestTalk, 3 attacks + status move, etc

The only pokemon in the tier that I know of that it counters are Sneasel, Pawniard, Klinklang, Kangaskhan, and SD Samurott. It's set up fodder for CM Psychic types, can't switch into any other physical attackers because it is either not bulky enough or fears their coverage, and is, as I said before, extremely passive. It relies on Scald burns for residual damage and mildly upsets you with Circle Throw phasing. It only has two usable sets, one being resttalk which isn't as effective as it once was (as I've explained) and specs which only has small niche over other, better specially based Water-types, such as Ludicolo, Samurott, and even Seismitoad, with its access to a secondary Fighting-type STAB and Vacuum Wave. I'm not saying it's especially bad by any mean, it just lost a HUGE niche with Gatr leaving.

 

[Fling]

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 165-195 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 135-160 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

Scarf Rotom is about the easiest Pokemon to take advantage of, and people are becoming more and more prepared for Klinklang and Samurott as they rise in popularity. I fought for Archeops to go to S-rank in the post-Heliolisk/Virizion metagame because it's more than good enough for it. You no longer have to run Earthquake/Heat Wave for Heliolisk/Mega Steelix, so you can run dual STAB and then coverage based on your team (mostly Aqua Tail for Rhydon or Earthquake for other checks) and still have room for Roost. Archeops is still one of the only offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of most other offensive Pokemon and still do extremely well against bulkier Pokemon at the same time.

Offensive archeops calcs always look amazing but in practice its p hard to use seen as without hp investment you're frail as shit and its not like you can easily roost on anything to get out of defeatist. I don't understand what you mean by you fought for it to go to S rank in the post heliolisk meta saying its more than good enough for it seen as it got moved up 3 days after lisk and viri left and the meta just went through a massive change and it would be hard to tell how good it would be.

 

[ryan]

it was good in Heliolisk/Steelix meta where it was forced to run suboptimal coverage. take away the best flying resist in NU and it gets better. not sure what's hard to understand about that.

and it's also not easy to get Archeops into defeatist range to begin with. if you're hard switching it into everything sure, but if you're making optimal double switches/running anything with u-turn/volt switch/baton pass, it becomes insane. and it can still pivot into resisted hits because its bulk and typing are both decent. you could argue that pivot support should keep it from S, but pivot (and spin/defog) support is pretty necessary for typhlosion too.

 

[Punchshroom]

Have to agree that Archeops is easily one of the most defining metagame threats in the tier. It has one, or even two of the best offensive STABs in the tier combined with insane power, incredible speed tier, and a wide pool of coverage options it can use to deal with resists. The all-out attacker set always has the coverage necessary for the meta to stay in the game; previously it got around on Flying + Ground coverage, but now it can opt for dual STAB + Aqua Tail (and this is not even accounting the possibility of U-turn). And then the lead set boasts both speedy SR + Taunt and massive damage dealing potential (whether you hit it or not); it has also contributed to shaping up a new 'lead metagame' (alongside Crustle perhaps), where good leads can be determined by how well they handled lead Archeops while still doing their primary jobs.

If the meta turns more offensive Archeops can still keep ahead due to its great speed and can easily threaten many attackers, and even if the meta turns bulkier Archeops can rely on its impressive coverage and access to Taunt + Roost or even Endeavor to fuck with walls, allowing it to adapt to almost any meta while remaining a serious threat. The only time when Archeops didn't seem to be at its A-game was when Mega Steelix was around due to how ubiquitous it was, but like holly said, Archeops losing one of its best stops in the tier means it is bound to look better from there.

 

[Karane]

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 165-195 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 240-284 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 135-160 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

Scarf Rotom is about the easiest Pokemon to take advantage of, and people are becoming more and more prepared for Klinklang and Samurott as they rise in popularity. I fought for Archeops to go to S-rank in the post-Heliolisk/Virizion metagame because it's more than good enough for it. You no longer have to run Earthquake/Heat Wave for Heliolisk/Mega Steelix, so you can run dual STAB and then coverage based on your team (mostly Aqua Tail for Rhydon or Earthquake for other checks) and still have room for Roost. Archeops is still one of the only offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of most other offensive Pokemon and still do extremely well against bulkier Pokemon at the same time.

Defensive costa not offensive bruh;
252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 102-121 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

In those calcs you are assuming the ideal scenario when there are no rocks on the field, its out of defeatist and those mons are switching into it. However in practical scenario, its really hard to be out of defeatist (since you don't have any bulk to roost often) and fall to any sort of priority. Just saying that its not that great right now as
you make out to be. Could be that I'm facing players who aren't using it right.

Have to agree that Archeops is easily one of the most defining metagame threats in the tier. It has one, or even two of the best offensive STABs in the tier combined with insane power, incredible speed tier, and a wide pool of coverage options it can use to deal with resists. The all-out attacker set always has the coverage necessary for the meta to stay in the game; previously it got around on Flying + Ground coverage, but now it can opt for dual STAB + Aqua Tail (and this is not even accounting the possibility of U-turn). And then the lead set boasts both speedy SR + Taunt and massive damage dealing potential (whether you hit it or not); it has also contributed to shaping up a new 'lead metagame' (alongside Crustle perhaps), where good leads can be determined by how well they handled lead Archeops while still doing their primary jobs.

If the meta turns more offensive Archeops can still keep ahead due to its great speed and can easily threaten many attackers, and even if the meta turns bulkier Archeops can rely on its impressive coverage and access to Taunt + Roost or even Endeavor to fuck with walls, allowing it to adapt to almost any meta while remaining a serious threat. The only time when Archeops didn't seem to be at its A-game was when Mega Steelix was around due to how ubiquitous it was, but like holly said, Archeops losing one of its best stops in the tier means it is bound to look better from there.

On the other hand, the lead chops gets shut by Sandslash (you could lose your ghost in the process) and Claydol which means you just lost 2 mons in order to prevent rocks from being spun. Crustle can beat the lead chops with rock blast, klingklang can lead and put you in misery (taunt or rocks?). However I am not saying its a bad lead because I myself use i time and time again. I don't mind it staying S though, as rankings mean nothing in actual gameplay and its not gonna stop people using it more or less.

 

[ryan]

defensive costa is incredibly rare, but yes, it walls archeops. in a practical scenario in my experiences with archeops, the types of teams you'd use it on can keep up pressure well enough to make setting stealth rock really difficult, and you can often roost on forced switches.

honestly forgot lead archeops even existed because I've literally never used it, but I agree that its effectiveness isn't the same that it was when it was first becoming popular. it's usually really easy to tell in team preview when an archeops is lead or not, and most teams have countermeasures to prevent it from doing anything beyond setting up rocks.

I think archeops will get worse as people become more prepared for it, which is already starting to happen. it just kind of single-handedly forces you to carry a dedicated answer to it, which isn't something that can be said about pretty much any other Pokemon in the tier barring Typhlosion (and bulky setup sweepers like crodino and malamar, but those are much easier to cover because they don't outspeed the majority of the metagame or immediately hit insanely hard).

also wanted to bring up klinklang, which is easy A+ material right now, especially because mantine has become much more common over other bulky water-types that do a better job of checking klinklang (seismitoad, prinplup). when we inevitably lose mega camerupt next tier shift, I expect to see fewer mantine over other bulky waters, which will hurt klinklang a bit, but even when you run stuff like seismitoad and prinplup, they often switch in and out of battle frequently throughout the early- and mid-game to check a variety of other Pokemon and set up Stealth Rock/Defog, which makes it easier to wear them down for klinklang later on. mawile, both defensive and offensive, has become a lot more common as a flying/normal resist because we have so few left, and it happens to be a poor answer to klinklang because it's neutral to steel and because clear body negates the intimidate drop. a lot of teams just fall to this thing after one boost, and a good number of the ones that don't struggle to handle sub klinklang. and of course, klinklang gives your team a normal/flying resist, giving you more breathing room to use stealth rock setters other than rhydon, mawile, and ferroseed (probably missing a couple) without auto-losing to archeops and co. I might even argue it's S worthy, but at the very least, it's easily A+.