Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Isn't it NU now though?
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Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Ares
- Start date
- Status
It is now BL4, not NU. For it to be NU it would need enough usage in NU.
Edit @below: PU is not an official meta, so I'm disinclined to list it
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PU or BL4. It would have to become NU by usage to get a rank, which it hasn't, so it won't get one.
Who ever said an offensive Pokemon had to hard-counter the strongest wallbreaker in the tier? The mere fact that Pignite can stop Typhlosion from mindlessly spamming Eruption is a solid feat in itself if you're asking me. Not to mention if you're relying solely on a single Pokemon to handle Typh you're doing it wrong anyway.
Because that doesn't apply to practically every defensive Pokemon ever? Wisp itself is enough to make SpD Pignite a legitimate threat (and base 93 Attack isn't even that bad lol)
Same thing as Typh, the fact that an offensive Pokemon can stop them from just freely spamming their strongest STAB moves is what makes it usable (beats all but LO Magmortar if it's switching into Fire Blast), and you always carry more then one Fire check on a team anyway.
Hariyama doesn't beat Ninetales either so I don't see your point? If you're expecting a C- mon to be some kind of flawless stop to every Fire-type then we have some issues here.
I don't think anyone here disagrees that Pignite has it's flaws, but saying it's "comparable to AV Magcargo" is something else
Also to answer a point made before: Pignite has Wisp, Sucker Punch, a Grass resistance, burn immunity, and ability to beat Vileplume over Hariyama, so yes there are in fact reasons to use it over the latter.
I think the main thing Deej is point out, is that it's branded as as stop to fire types, and in actuality it has a very hard time vs most fire types in the tier. It can't fill the niche it's being suggested for. And if it loses to most fire types in the tier, then whats the point of the rank?
Is C- really worth the niche to be able to take a Typhlosions Eruption? Should everything not 3hkoed get C- solely due to the fact it can take a few? I don't think so. Now I'm not saying thats all this mon has going for it, I'm just saying I don't see it.
Magcargo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magma Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Fire Blast
- Ancient Power
- Earth Power
- Clear Smog
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Magcargo: 49-58 (16.1 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Magcargo: 58-69 (19.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Magcargo: 28-33 (9.2 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
O SHIT NIGGA DAYUMM SUCH VIABLE
YOUR ICE BEAM DOESNT EVEN FREEZE
OML WHAT INNOVATIOn
SUCH WOW
THE PWRFULNESS
AV maggy to ubers lets go
lmao Blastral amirite seriously tho deej wtf lmao
Just quickly gonna re-nominate Scraggy for C+ from recently unranked
Right, is there something I'm just not getting with this Mon? Suddenly, when everything stops using the thing that single handedly destroys it (in fairy coverage) and all the Mon that destroy it have come down to a pulp (only 3 lgt fairies) and only other Mon that fully counters it (quaggy, and only curse quaggy) why did it get moved down to a rank Lower than Dusclops. As I said before, I might just not be getting at something, but I'm sure fighting types everywhere would dream of having what Scraggy has, an immunity to psychic type attacks. Sure, you do gain that pesky weakness to fairy, which really hampers it hard, knowing that one fairy means that scraggy is kept in check from turn 1. But there are 2 reasons why this isn't as big a problem anymore: fairies themselves are limited, with togetic, granbull and mega audino being the only viable ones. The second reason is that no Mon is carrying fairy coverage anymore. Its all about that signal beam/bug coverage to compensate for the rise of malamar, the realest sleeper Mon in NU rn, simply if you don't have bug coverage, you probably flat out lose to it, one way or another. Maybe if we were talking about a tomb meta, or xy meta I could stomach I drop to unlisted. But how could someone argue scraggy doesn't have a niche? As far as I can see, nothing in NU is capable of doing what scraggy does and its not like its predictable either. Offensive teams are punished by DD variants and defensive by a BU varient.
Then again I completely might be missing something, but as far as I can see, pangoro hasn't come back yet.
Also, before someone comments about how scraggy is underwhelming and never sweeps, the sheer utility of something that can switch into psychics reliably and hit them up with a knock off or even set up on them is good enough for being ranked imo.
I mean, Dusclops gets by on the fact it can spin block every Mon, no matter how well it does the job :s
Right, is there something I'm just not getting with this Mon? Suddenly, when everything stops using the thing that single handedly destroys it (in fairy coverage) and all the Mon that destroy it have come down to a pulp (only 3 lgt fairies) and only other Mon that fully counters it (quaggy, and only curse quaggy) why did it get moved down to a rank Lower than Dusclops. As I said before, I might just not be getting at something, but I'm sure fighting types everywhere would dream of having what Scraggy has, an immunity to psychic type attacks. Sure, you do gain that pesky weakness to fairy, which really hampers it hard, knowing that one fairy means that scraggy is kept in check from turn 1. But there are 2 reasons why this isn't as big a problem anymore: fairies themselves are limited, with togetic, granbull and mega audino being the only viable ones. The second reason is that no Mon is carrying fairy coverage anymore. Its all about that signal beam/bug coverage to compensate for the rise of malamar, the realest sleeper Mon in NU rn, simply if you don't have bug coverage, you probably flat out lose to it, one way or another. Maybe if we were talking about a tomb meta, or xy meta I could stomach I drop to unlisted. But how could someone argue scraggy doesn't have a niche? As far as I can see, nothing in NU is capable of doing what scraggy does and its not like its predictable either. Offensive teams are punished by DD variants and defensive by a BU varient.
Then again I completely might be missing something, but as far as I can see, pangoro hasn't come back yet.
Also, before someone comments about how scraggy is underwhelming and never sweeps, the sheer utility of something that can switch into psychics reliably and hit them up with a knock off or even set up on them is good enough for being ranked imo.
I mean, Dusclops gets by on the fact it can spin block every Mon, no matter how well it does the job :s
Congrats to cased and blastral (dat blast) for joining the viability council. They will help to decide the rankings.
Blastral BODYBAG BONGRINE
cased you fucker I knew that it was going to be completely aids to put in all those links. I finished it the first time and smogon fucked it up so I had to go in and do it all again. FUCK THAT WAS ANNOYING!
In other news, I linked all of the sprites to their corresponding dex pages. So if you go back to the OP and click on one it should bring you to a relevant move set if you're curious about what it does. Not all of them have analyses yet though.
Blastral BODYBAG BONGRINE
cased you fucker I knew that it was going to be completely aids to put in all those links. I finished it the first time and smogon fucked it up so I had to go in and do it all again. FUCK THAT WAS ANNOYING!
In other news, I linked all of the sprites to their corresponding dex pages. So if you go back to the OP and click on one it should bring you to a relevant move set if you're curious about what it does. Not all of them have analyses yet though.
I'd like to quote the points myself and some others made earlier a few pages back about Tangela since I'm quite surprised it didn't move at all in the update. It's understandable to overlook some things since there was a lot to work with, so I'd like to bring back up what I said. Note that I feel all the arguments for both sides have been said already, this is more just for the ranking team I guess. While B- may be a bit low, I still strongly stand behind a Tangela drop to at least B rank.
B+ -> B or B-
Tangela's effectiveness has severely decreased through the transition to ORAS. First off, it faces heavy competition from Vileplume as a bulky Grass-type which has quite a few advantages over Tangela, notably its strong secondary STAB move and the ability to rid itself and teammates of status conditions with Aromatherapy. In addition, the Gourgeist formes now have a significant reason to be used over Tangela as they are not complete setup fodder for Malamar, while Tangela is unfortunately. Tangela is also complete setup fodder for CroDino, another important disadvantage over Vileplume (Vileplume can lose to CroDino after a few boosts but its not complete setup fodder). I'm not saying that Vileplume is incredible, but at the very least in this particular comparison it really deserves to be at the very least one rank higher than Tangela. One of the best qualities Tangela had was being able to fully counter SD Kabutops as opposed to Vileplume, which is irrelevant now. The only thing that stops Tangela from being complete setup fodder to non Rest Talk users is Sleep Powder, which is somewhat unreliable and taken advantage of to some extent. In addition, with the loss of (Mega) Steelix, Flying-types have risen in popularity, a major thorn in the side for Tangela. There just arent as many top tier threats that Tangela can handle, as it has a poor matchup versus some of the A and S ranked Pokemon such as Archeops (2HKOs all variants), Mega Camerupt, Jynx, Scyther, Magmortar, Typhlosion, Pyroar, and Vivillon. Lastly, I just cannot see it on the same level of effectiveness along with the likes of Swellow, Quagsire, Prinplup, Lanturn, and Vileplume. Sorry spaghetti :[
Just quickly gonna re-nominate Scraggy for C+ from recently unranked
Right, is there something I'm just not getting with this Mon? Suddenly, when everything stops using the thing that single handedly destroys it (in fairy coverage) and all the Mon that destroy it have come down to a pulp (only 3 lgt fairies) and only other Mon that fully counters it (quaggy, and only curse quaggy) why did it get moved down to a rank Lower than Dusclops. As I said before, I might just not be getting at something, but I'm sure fighting types everywhere would dream of having what Scraggy has, an immunity to psychic type attacks. Sure, you do gain that pesky weakness to fairy, which really hampers it hard, knowing that one fairy means that scraggy is kept in check from turn 1. But there are 2 reasons why this isn't as big a problem anymore: fairies themselves are limited, with togetic, granbull and mega audino being the only viable ones. The second reason is that no Mon is carrying fairy coverage anymore. Its all about that signal beam/bug coverage to compensate for the rise of malamar, the realest sleeper Mon in NU rn, simply if you don't have bug coverage, you probably flat out lose to it, one way or another. Maybe if we were talking about a tomb meta, or xy meta I could stomach I drop to unlisted. But how could someone argue scraggy doesn't have a niche? As far as I can see, nothing in NU is capable of doing what scraggy does and its not like its predictable either. Offensive teams are punished by DD variants and defensive by a BU varient.
Then again I completely might be missing something, but as far as I can see, pangoro hasn't come back yet.
Also, before someone comments about how scraggy is underwhelming and never sweeps, the sheer utility of something that can switch into psychics reliably and hit them up with a knock off or even set up on them is good enough for being ranked imo.
I mean, Dusclops gets by on the fact it can spin block every Mon, no matter how well it does the job :s
I am going to try and not outright dispute this but it would be really useful to see some replays of it actually doing work. As I have still yet to see a scraggy competently used in NU once because no one but a select few individuals ever even seem to actually consider using it.
Your argument is for the most part solid but almost every single thing you mentioned also applies to Malamar (while it hates fairies there aren't many in the tier, doesn't have many counters besides quag, an amazing immunity to psychic attacks in a tier ruled by psychics, etc). I know you say that it differentiates itself from Malamar because teams over prepare for it with signal beam and other bug coverage but that really only goes so far.
While NU may use more bug type moves/attackers to fight against Malamar it goes to show how people have to go out of their way to prepare for Malamar because it so ridiculously threatening but most people have numerous stops to scraggy without even preparing for it. Scyther, Mega Audino, Hariyama, Sawk, Malamar (actually nets 2 superpowers off of it because it doesn't OHKO), Gurdurr, Quag, Togetic, Granbull, Mawile, and Archeops are just some of the better ones.
This is coming from someone who hasn't used Scraggy in NU (because I don't really see the point when Malamar exists) but has played the tier a fair amount.
But how could someone argue scraggy doesn't have a niche?
Fighting Type STAB + Knock off is one of the most common combinations ever. Only difference is Scraggy is bulkier but is still outsped and 2HKO'd by most things even with eviolite intact assuming it hasn't previously been knocked off.
As far as I can see, nothing in NU is capable of doing what scraggy does and its not like its predictable either.
Boosting up primarily using a combination of dark and fighting type moves relying on rest for recovery hmm...
Offensive teams are punished by DD variants and defensive by a BU varient.
I don't see how a competent offensive team could be punished by a pokemon Dragon dancing from 48 Speed which is most likely not even fully invested as well otherwise you aren't living much even with eviolite. There are plenty of defensive mons that laugh at scraggy Mega Audino, Hariyama, Granbull, Defensive Mawile, Quag, Togetic, Bulky Scyther, etc.
I don't know I may be completely wrong but I just don't see it how it could be competent in NU let alone C+. The Bulk Up set I think is completely outclassed by other mons although primarily Malamar, I guess the dragon dance set holds some small niche but even then the niche is so small I don't think it is worthy of moving up from unranked at all. Seeing some replays of it actually working though would probably be the best thing for a scraggy nomination to be honest.
So anyways, that's my two 2 cents, thanks for reading :D
Lemme just say that for all this talk about Pignite walling Fires or 'being an offensive threat', this is the biggest reason why I think Pignite has close to no niche in this tier:
Way stronger Flare Blitz, Leftovers gives Flareon just as much tanking ability as Evio Pignite, can combine an attack + Wisp into one move in Lava Plume, still has Superpower if you want that, a flat out immunity to Fire as opposed to a resistance, has ways of healing itself (WishTect), SR weakness slightly mitigated by said recovery which Pignite completely lacks. Even offensively Flareon isn't falling behind, since said Flare Blitz is brutally strong and still has Superpower and Quick Attack for priority; while it has less coverage moves than Pig, it has a free moveslot for Sleep Talk which allows it to absorb sleep for teammates (which also contributes more against faster teams), while Pignite can't do the same since most offensive sleep users tear it to shreds. Pignite can't even make use of its Knock Off resistance XP
Way stronger Flare Blitz, Leftovers gives Flareon just as much tanking ability as Evio Pignite, can combine an attack + Wisp into one move in Lava Plume, still has Superpower if you want that, a flat out immunity to Fire as opposed to a resistance, has ways of healing itself (WishTect), SR weakness slightly mitigated by said recovery which Pignite completely lacks. Even offensively Flareon isn't falling behind, since said Flare Blitz is brutally strong and still has Superpower and Quick Attack for priority; while it has less coverage moves than Pig, it has a free moveslot for Sleep Talk which allows it to absorb sleep for teammates (which also contributes more against faster teams), while Pignite can't do the same since most offensive sleep users tear it to shreds. Pignite can't even make use of its Knock Off resistance XP
:/ Also look what my quote fished up Mont u sly dog
My little cent about it. Actually, Mantine is B, so the same rank of Swanna. But Mantine is surely better than Swanna and Pelipper. Mantine is slower but it's hugely bulky, so more appropiate for defogger role than Swanna and Pellipper too. And it can provide for its slowness with Rain Dance/Swift Swim and Water Absorb is an ability more interesting than Rain Dish or Hydration.B ---> B-/C+ Swanna does not deserve B rank. It outclassed as an offensive defogger and a defensive one as well, It's speed, special attack and defence are nothing special and it's abilities don't provide anything except hydration which be used as rain dance rest set? I mean if you want a semi fast water/flying type to be used as a defogger then I guess swanna is your man...swan? But most of the time I would much rather user a pellipep, mantine or an archeops. (It also has a niche of having well rounded even stats I suppose)
So, if we want to diversify them, I think it could be better drop Pelipper and Swanna at B- or move up Mantine to B+.
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Ferroseed to B+/B
It's not that good in this metagame. There's an abundant amount of fire types, bulky setup sweepers that take advantage of Ferroseed's passiveness, and it has a tough time setting up hazards because of how common Xatu is. It does have some useful qualities, like being a switch in to Samurott and Archeops, but the tier shifts weren't kind to this spike ball.
It's not that good in this metagame. There's an abundant amount of fire types, bulky setup sweepers that take advantage of Ferroseed's passiveness, and it has a tough time setting up hazards because of how common Xatu is. It does have some useful qualities, like being a switch in to Samurott and Archeops, but the tier shifts weren't kind to this spike ball.
I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with this.
- It's the closest thing we have a samurott "counter" since it can run hp electric to bop mantine.
- We have a lack of normal resists in this meta and one that's as bulky and can cause residual damage like ferro is worth having.
- Walls the ever so common cm offensive uxie and mesprit that run signal, energy ball and psyshock set.
- Samurott can adapt and run superpower, so not really a counter. Taunt variants already exist and shut down Ferroseed anyways.
- Sure, there's only a few normal resists. Fire coverage isn't really ran on normal types, if anything they do run aqua tail to hit Rhydon, but that's because Rhydon is a more threatening normal resist than Ferroseed. Rhydon doesn't immediately lose you momentum when they have a Xatu either, because it can setup rocks and threaten it out. Being able to get rocks up against Xatu is one of the most important parts of this metagame.
- There's also other steel types like Klinklang and Pawniard that don't lose if Uxie reveals substitute.
- Samurott doesn't have room for superpower, sure it can adapt but ferro isn't the main check or counter. Also ferro has been running seed bomb / bulletseed to be able to hit it. This is similar to feraligatr running superpower, but it would obviously mean that samu would have less coverage options.
- That's a particular instance where you're facing a team with xatu, not in general. Ferro has only 2 weaknesses, rhydon has several + 2 quad weaknesses, which may not suit the needs of the user. Having a normal resist + residual damage for the normal type is very unique in NU.
- If they reveal sub then gyro can break unless they're running a defensive variant, by which it isn't as threatening and you may have other checks accordingly. The set that it does check however is very common, although they can choose to run hp fire yes, but those pixies have coverage for everything.
- Other steel types also don't have the bulk that ferroseed has aswell as recovery in leech seed which can force switches and it can also stack hazards.
Cased
Banned deucer.
yeah that's right you may have morecased you fucker I knew that it was going to be completelyaids to put in all those links. I finished it the first time and smogon fucked it up so I had to go in and do it all again. FUCK THAT WAS ANNOYING!
In other news, I linked all of the sprites to their corresponding dex pages. So if you go back
badges but at the end of the day I still have to beg you to do things for me._______________________________________________________________________________________
But yeah honestly I was in the same boat as Chef Rice when it comes to Ferroseed, but I started
to use it a lot more often in the past month or two, and honestly it's been everything I've wished it could be and more. Fantastic bulk with Eviolite and passable recovery in Leech Seed is really cool to where down teams. Considering no other viable Grass-type wants to switch into Ferroseed besides... Well, Ferroseed. Lilligant cant really risk taking damage like a Gyro or risk a Thunder Wave, and the other Grass-types are Spike-fodder thanks to the immunity to Sleep Powder which is dope.Honestly, the biggest issue right now with Ferroseed is the realistically free switch to Mega Camerupt in this metagame. Mega Camerupt or Typhlosion are the two probably most centralizing Pokemon in this metagame, and a free switch to either (obviously Typhlosion doesn't have many "free" switches with its Rock-weakness and bad Defenses (Only can safely come in on choice-locked Fire moves if you run Flash Fire, but yeah. A free switch into Mega Camerupt is basically asking to get blasted away. Of course
, Ferroseed's ever popular partner Mantine is of great help in beating Mega Camerupt. Buuuut the Pokemon being discussed is Ferroseed. I think the only thing stopping Ferroseed right now is the "free switch" for a lot of popular Pokemon. Although it has a lot of moves to choose from. SR / Spikes / T-Wave / Gyro / Seed or Bullet / Knock Off (I use it, fuck everyone else / Protect, hazards are somewhat mandatory and Protect + Leech Seed generally works well so you're not left with many options to stop free switches for a fair amount of popular Pokemon. I do believe it deserves where it stands in the viability list, it beats a bunch of Pokemon (One of the only Pokemon in the tier willing to take on Kangaskhan and Archeops) and has access to great support moves. For The Record... I do believe it successfully takes on Samurott, Taunt Rott is also not very popular right now in the metagame. Superpower / Knock Off / Megahorn / Aqua Jet / HP Electric or Grass Knot are some of the moves that Samurott needs to choose from. (For the record, 4 Atk Superpower from Samurott doesn't 2hko the standard Ferroseed). Also Protect is very common on Ferroseed so scouting isn't out of the question for either Taunt and Choiced-mons.:[l] sorry for all the words
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Scarf Lilligant (arguably the best set atm) not only outspeeds the entire unboosted tier, but packs a punch as well. This thing wrecks weakened teams with ease. It has a 120 bp move that it can spam without drawbacks thanks to own tempo. Add rocks, and this thing is begging to sweep once it's counters are weakened or picked off by your other 5 pokemon.
it scares out one of the biggest threats in the tier Archeops if it can get a safe switch in
252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Archeops: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
it beats mega camel on the switch in
252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Mespirit can't safely switch in
252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 168-198 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's already 3 S ranked pokemon it can outspeed and kill on the switch in or when weakened down enough.
Lilligant is a really great revenge killer, especially against swellow
252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swellow: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage
After one turn of toxic damage, Lilligant can safely OHKO
Since Lill outspeeds, the only thing swellow can do is try to quick attack and that barely phases it
252 Atk Guts Swellow Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 93-111 (33 - 39.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
It also has a few things over Cacturne
1) Healing Wish. Healing Wish allows it to continue support and basically give your fallen sweeper a second chance. Really valuable for HO teams on crippled pokemon. It's healing wish is also really fast if using the scarf set.
2)Petal Dance with no drawbacks. 120 bp STAB power move. Cacturne can really only opt for Seed Bomb or Giga Drain
3) A godsend in boosting moves called Quiver Dance. Quiver Dance makes it more bulky, faster, and stronger all in one turn.
Overall i feel this is enough to merit for S ranked.
Also, here's a replay for Lilligant sweeping at 1%
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-222076477
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Well I'm just going to point out notable flaws since I disagree with it being S rank and feel it should keep A+.Lilligant ---> S
Scarf Lilligant (arguably the best set atm) not only outspeeds the entire unboosted tier, but packs a punch as well. This thing wrecks weakened teams with ease. It has a 120 bp move that it can spam without drawbacks thanks to own tempo. Add rocks, and this thing is begging to sweep once it's counters are weakened or picked off by your other 5 pokemon.
it scares out one of the biggest threats in the tier Archeops if it can get a safe switch in
252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Archeops: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
it beats mega camel on the switch in
252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Mespirit can't safely switch in
252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 168-198 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's already 3 S ranked pokemon it can outspeed and kill on the switch in or when weakened down enough.
Lilligant is a really great revenge killer, especially against swellow
252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swellow: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage
After one turn of toxic damage, Lilligant can safely OHKO
Since Lill outspeeds, the only thing swellow can do is try to quick attack and that barely phases it
252 Atk Guts Swellow Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 93-111 (33 - 39.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
It also has a few things over Cacturne
1) Healing Wish. Healing Wish allows it to continue support and basically give your fallen sweeper a second chance. Really valuable for HO teams on crippled pokemon. It's healing wish is also really fast if using the scarf set.
2)Petal Dance with no drawbacks. 120 bp STAB power move. Cacturne can really only opt for Seed Bomb or Giga Drain
3) A godsend in boosting moves called Quiver Dance. Quiver Dance makes it more bulky, faster, and stronger all in one turn.
Overall i feel this is enough to merit for S ranked.
Also, here's a replay for Lilligant sweeping at 1%
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-222076477
- just because offensive pokemon can't switch in on a scarfed lilligant doesn't mean it deserves S rank. (naive archeops is never used either)
- Being locked into a move makes easy revenge kill bait for things such as sneasel with ice shard or the many fire types in the tier such as magmortar, pyroar or typhlosion. Also predicting the swellow and using HP rock is an issue too since you're using a scarfed set.
- Your argument only really covers one set in all honesty which is the scarfed set. The QD set is the main reason it's ranked so highly since it can put something to sleep and setup making it extremely hard to stop. Since you've only mentioned the scarfed set, whilst yes it is a good set and lilligant is a good pokemon, it isn't quite as good as the other 4 S rank pokemon that have diverse sets like mesprit or archeops, or extreme power like camel and typh.
- It is an unreliable sweeper due to sleep powder missing 25% of the time and frailty with low base defenses. Not to mention it has massive 4mss since you can't run hp rock + hp fire + hp ice, you have to choose which pokemon will wall you and hence another reason why it doesn't function very well.
- Also, lilligant and cacturne are completely different pokemon, I don't think you should be comparing them when it comes to sweeping.
Mawile could probably find its way into A+ right now. Both offensive and defensive sets are actually amazing. SD Mawile is like Pawniard, except that it's actually terrifying for stall while Pawniard is usually not a huge deal because of its really low immediate impact on the game. Even with its terrible uninvested bulk, offensive Mawile can all variants of Scyther, which is really cool for offensive teams that can't easily fit a Flying resist elsewhere.
Defensive sets check lots of Pokemon, including Scyther, Archeops, Liepard, Mega Audino (needs Super Fang and about 44 Atk EVs to take out RestTalk with non-Sheer Force Iron Head, but that's well worth the investment to handle such an annoying sack of shit), Mesprit, Kangaskhan (especially Drain Punch variants), Zangoose, Sneasel, etc. These are all really scary Pokemon in the metagame, barring maybe Liepard, and Mawile can pivot into all of them at least reasonably well. The best part is that it doesn't matter that Mawile is really weak without Sheer Force and Attack investment because Super Fang allows it to put on immense pressure while Baton Pass lets you get a free pivot into something else. Defensive Mawile is one of my favorite Pokemon to use in this meta. Its sick typing allows it to check a ton of top threats that are really difficult to cover in this meta, especially in one slot, and it doesn't give completely free switches into anything.
Hariyama should probably drop to A. It's still a great Fire-type check, but literally every viable Fire-type has a way of getting around it. Mega Camerupt does a ton to it with Earth Power and can run Will-O-Wisp to lure it, and Typhlosion, Magmortar, and Ninetales all run Psychic-type coverage. Pyroar is less common now, but I've run into Specs a few times lately, and Specs Hyper Voice does like 40% to it. It can also very viably run Will-O-Wisp. As for other special attackers, it doesn't really do a whole lot to beat them. Water-types can burn it with Scald, or, in the case of Samurott, just hit it for a shitton with Hydro Pump. Lilligant does 40-50% with +1 Timid Life Orb Giga Drain, and it's not exactly difficult to wear down Hariyama with its lack of Leftovers. And there are tons of Psychic-types in the metagame right now. Even though checking Fire-types is still absolutely essential for every team, the metagame has drastically shifted out of Hariyama's favor.
Defensive sets check lots of Pokemon, including Scyther, Archeops, Liepard, Mega Audino (needs Super Fang and about 44 Atk EVs to take out RestTalk with non-Sheer Force Iron Head, but that's well worth the investment to handle such an annoying sack of shit), Mesprit, Kangaskhan (especially Drain Punch variants), Zangoose, Sneasel, etc. These are all really scary Pokemon in the metagame, barring maybe Liepard, and Mawile can pivot into all of them at least reasonably well. The best part is that it doesn't matter that Mawile is really weak without Sheer Force and Attack investment because Super Fang allows it to put on immense pressure while Baton Pass lets you get a free pivot into something else. Defensive Mawile is one of my favorite Pokemon to use in this meta. Its sick typing allows it to check a ton of top threats that are really difficult to cover in this meta, especially in one slot, and it doesn't give completely free switches into anything.
Hariyama should probably drop to A. It's still a great Fire-type check, but literally every viable Fire-type has a way of getting around it. Mega Camerupt does a ton to it with Earth Power and can run Will-O-Wisp to lure it, and Typhlosion, Magmortar, and Ninetales all run Psychic-type coverage. Pyroar is less common now, but I've run into Specs a few times lately, and Specs Hyper Voice does like 40% to it. It can also very viably run Will-O-Wisp. As for other special attackers, it doesn't really do a whole lot to beat them. Water-types can burn it with Scald, or, in the case of Samurott, just hit it for a shitton with Hydro Pump. Lilligant does 40-50% with +1 Timid Life Orb Giga Drain, and it's not exactly difficult to wear down Hariyama with its lack of Leftovers. And there are tons of Psychic-types in the metagame right now. Even though checking Fire-types is still absolutely essential for every team, the metagame has drastically shifted out of Hariyama's favor.
Hey guys, im coming at you with another update on what i think should happen to the viability rankings; im gonna have quite a few so, yeah.
first one: Archeops from S rank ===> B- Rank
Is there really a reason why this pokemon is so high? honestly, its utter shit. I mean, just today on the ladder, it got outsped by a fucking zebra. Really? Overated imo, people say its a good defogger but when i switched it in on this Samurott, it really just, didnt get the defog off. Whats the point of having a mon to do a job then its not even capable of doing it? B- suits it perfectly, same rank as sandslash, no more no less. At least sandslash can switch in on a zebra, smh. Especially the AV set, caw blimey, that shit was unreal.
Second one: Mesprit S rank ===> B Rank
Again, why does this need to be so high? Especially because it has this glitch. I click this psychic type attack and what happens: it fucking faints. Rather useless if you ask me. Ok its decent for getting momentum ik ik ive tryed it but honestly, twave does a better job than it imo. Sure its an OK special attacker but we have many in this tier, like Ninjask and Zangoose, which imo outclass its coverage and speed tier.
Third one: Hariyama A+ Rank ===> C- Rank
Ok, what the fuck is this diabetic fighting piece of crap doing any where near a rank. O. m. g. I used it today as an assault vest switch in for typhlosion. and it always seems to get knocked out. I press this move called fake out, and it does no damage. no im not kidding, no damage. Whats the point? Go and counter fire mons if a.) gets killed by them b.) has a move that does 0 damage
C rank suits it better since Pignite is just as good an option and slightly lower than lampent, which is ravaging the tier with its power atm.
Fourth change: Mightyena D rank ===> A to A+ Rank
why is this mon, so freaking low? I mean seriously. I used a team today with a uxie, gorebyss and diglett with gorebyss smash passing boosts to it with dual screens as well as memento support in diglett as well as sleep powder support from lilligant and some t spikes from my main garbage sack garbodor (which has another move that killed itself, who knew) and it swept every team. Granted i play 2 teams at the 1050s where the opposition is really really really difficult and 1 of the teams was against 4 mons but who cares, it swept both ezily. I reccomend this for NUs next suspect.
Final Change: Metang C- rank ===> B+ Rank
Ok, lgt, this mon is a tangk. (<==lol) It literally survived every move, i used this item called focus band and i could really hear ash through my computer screen screaming at Metang not to die and GUESS WHAT. it survived a +6 fire blast from ninetales and proceeded to ohko back with Eq. Amazeballs. Im pretty sure nothing in the tier can do that. I guess its slightly dependant on its item which is why im not pushing for a rank but i believe its strength, brilliant typing and access to protect and toxic as well as a focus band for its item; you cant really go wrong imo.
I wouldnt be surprised if this got listed for the next suspect.
ill be back with more brilliant insight into NU once i see these ranks impemented.
cya nerds.
edit: post #499
first one: Archeops from S rank ===> B- Rank
Is there really a reason why this pokemon is so high? honestly, its utter shit. I mean, just today on the ladder, it got outsped by a fucking zebra. Really? Overated imo, people say its a good defogger but when i switched it in on this Samurott, it really just, didnt get the defog off. Whats the point of having a mon to do a job then its not even capable of doing it? B- suits it perfectly, same rank as sandslash, no more no less. At least sandslash can switch in on a zebra, smh. Especially the AV set, caw blimey, that shit was unreal.
Second one: Mesprit S rank ===> B Rank
Again, why does this need to be so high? Especially because it has this glitch. I click this psychic type attack and what happens: it fucking faints. Rather useless if you ask me. Ok its decent for getting momentum ik ik ive tryed it but honestly, twave does a better job than it imo. Sure its an OK special attacker but we have many in this tier, like Ninjask and Zangoose, which imo outclass its coverage and speed tier.
Third one: Hariyama A+ Rank ===> C- Rank
Ok, what the fuck is this diabetic fighting piece of crap doing any where near a rank. O. m. g. I used it today as an assault vest switch in for typhlosion. and it always seems to get knocked out. I press this move called fake out, and it does no damage. no im not kidding, no damage. Whats the point? Go and counter fire mons if a.) gets killed by them b.) has a move that does 0 damage
C rank suits it better since Pignite is just as good an option and slightly lower than lampent, which is ravaging the tier with its power atm.
Fourth change: Mightyena D rank ===> A to A+ Rank
why is this mon, so freaking low? I mean seriously. I used a team today with a uxie, gorebyss and diglett with gorebyss smash passing boosts to it with dual screens as well as memento support in diglett as well as sleep powder support from lilligant and some t spikes from my main garbage sack garbodor (which has another move that killed itself, who knew) and it swept every team. Granted i play 2 teams at the 1050s where the opposition is really really really difficult and 1 of the teams was against 4 mons but who cares, it swept both ezily. I reccomend this for NUs next suspect.
Final Change: Metang C- rank ===> B+ Rank
Ok, lgt, this mon is a tangk. (<==lol) It literally survived every move, i used this item called focus band and i could really hear ash through my computer screen screaming at Metang not to die and GUESS WHAT. it survived a +6 fire blast from ninetales and proceeded to ohko back with Eq. Amazeballs. Im pretty sure nothing in the tier can do that. I guess its slightly dependant on its item which is why im not pushing for a rank but i believe its strength, brilliant typing and access to protect and toxic as well as a focus band for its item; you cant really go wrong imo.
I wouldnt be surprised if this got listed for the next suspect.
ill be back with more brilliant insight into NU once i see these ranks impemented.
cya nerds.
edit: post #499
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