Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Firebird101]

I'm amazed there was Forretress discussion yet no one brought up defog xD

Anyways more on topic. I'm not so sure about Chansey's raise to A as it is second only to Alomomola in terms of passiveness. But regardless I do think it is a pretty important wall on stall as it shuts down almost every special attacker and it's wish-passing is a great set to use on stall imo. But yeah it is pretty easy to wear down with gradual damage like entry hazards and sandstorm, and a good portion of the new mega's pray on it's weaker defense stat, not to mention with Greninja gaining Gunk Shot and Low Kick it can't even stop it as easily as it did before. However Mega Sableye did make stall much more viable though so despite having more enemies to deal with it than before it has also gained new partners who can put an halt to Chansey's enemies.

I'm rather torn up on Chansey's rank to be honest. I can see her moving to A-, but definitely not higher.

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm amazed there was Forretress discussion yet no one brought up defog xD

Anyways more on topic. I'm not so sure about Chansey's raise to A as it is second only to Alomomola in terms of passiveness. But regardless I do think it is a pretty important wall on stall as it shuts down almost every special attacker and it's wish-passing is a great set to use on stall imo. But yeah it is pretty easy to wear down with gradual damage like entry hazards and sandstorm, and a good portion of the new mega's pray on it's weaker defense stat, not to mention with Greninja gaining Gunk Shot and Low Kick it can't even stop it as easily as it did before. However Mega Sableye did make stall much more viable though so despite having more enemies to deal with it than before it has also gained new partners who can put an halt to Chansey's enemies.

I'm rather torn up on Chansey's rank to be honest. I can see her moving to A-, but definitely not higher.

While Chansey is extremely passive, it is able to handle most of the Pokemon it walls better than Alomomola can; for example, Sun Fish cannot even 2HKO Terrakion with Scald and can get OHKOd back by a +2 Close Combat if it is not running maximum HP and maximum defense. Meanwhile, Chansey handles Pokemon like Zard Y and Thundurus usually quite fine.

 

[Karxrida]

While Chansey is extremely passive, it is able to handle most of the Pokemon it walls better than Alomomola can; for example, Sun Fish cannot even 2HKO Terrakion with Scald and can get OHKOd back by a +2 Close Combat if it is not running maximum HP and maximum defense. Meanwhile, Chansey handles Pokemon like Zard Y and Thundurus usually quite fine.

Her ability to handle Thundurus is completely set-dependent. Mixed runs Knock Off and sometimes Superpower while pure Special may have Taunt (but that one's not common).

 

[Excalibuwrath]

I just want to second Mega-Slowbro to A+. It's ridiculously bulky on the physical side, with 95/180 defenses and scald burns. It doesn't even need Defense investment, which means that it can invest entirely in HP and Special Defense, giving it much greater special bulk than it's 95/80 defenses suggest. Because Regenerator discourages switching and Shell Armor is good for defense boosting, a slow boosting set is ideal. It's Calm Mind sets are pretty much untouchable without really powerful super-effective STAB attacks once it gets a few boosts up. It has two options: Slack Off or ResTalk. Slack Off enables two attacks, but ResTalk makes you practically immune to status and thus much harder to wear down. However, powerful attackers like Mega-Beedril and Mega-Sceptile can beat it before it can attack or boost, respectively. Despite this, it's weaknesses are easily covered, and it can easily boost up in the face of most of the metagame, and easily deserves an A+ ranking.

 

[theDSC]

Yeah haha .

Poor Forretress , he gets no love. Well hell yeah he can get 2HKO against Super effective moves like Fireblast , and no way im staying with him vs Heatran and leave him to die. He has a good typing to resist other type of moves and his Ability lets him at least Lay some Hazard before it dies Or RS them if you want. YOu mentioned that if i think he can stay alive, well you DONT need him alive ALWAYS, If he managd to set 2 layers of spikes and rs is the BEST situation. I imagine him being useul when you switch it in to tank a strong Physical Move (He can tank Earthquakes like a boss) Or Hits form likes of Gyrados or Scizor. Then he can lay his hazard or spin previously if you dont fear a switch that can wreck your team but IF YOU DO just click Vot switch and se how you dint lose any tempo at all. Lastly YOu can use sets with Red card or Rocky Helmet and do cool Stuff or if yoou really hate how slow he is just EXPLODE! . I dont have a team with him currently but if anyone have a team with team it be appreciated if they post it here.

Forretress has fallen far from his glory days. Technically these problems have been there before but with every passing generation the metagame is just more unkind to our little iron ball. The Explosion nerf in gen. 5 pretty much removed any offence presence (if there were any before) he had, and this generation with Defog and the usual power creep means that he just can't keep up. Not to mention Forretress is complete setup fodder and taunt bait. There are a multitude of other relevant problems with the little bug that just doesn't justify using him on a serious OU team anymore.

 

[alexwolf]

Dear god Alexwolf come back this thread has turned into the horrible joke and sarcasm thread

I am on it, dw.

Removed Mega Salamence and fixed some link errors for now, namely those that Alfalfa mentioned. Oh and added links for whichever new MEvos have analyses in C&C. Once we get the first update for the S and A+ ranks i hope the discussion can get a bit more organized. I repeat for those that forgot it, we are focused on discussing S and A+ rank Pokemon right now, posts about other Pokemon will be ignored.

 

[MilkyWay]

I dont have time to make a lengthy post on this as I am in a study hall, but I think that Mega Metagross should go to S. It was moved to S during the update that occurred during the Mega Salamence era and it now probably the best mega. It's defensive typing almost got better despite the steel nerf because now it can check/counter so many fairies (like mega gardevoire) while still keeping many dragons in check such as Latios and Latias. It's actually pretty bulky, iirc it can survive a scarf lando-t earthquake if necessary (which is a super effective stab) and im pretty sure it can beat dark pulse greninja 1v1. The bulk just helps out in general and makes it that much harder to check/takedown. Finally, metagross has a phenominal speed tier, hits very hard thanks to tough claws, and has very good coverage despite a slight case of 4mss. To further elaborate on its 4mss, i find it much more similar to greninja than something like infernape as in it can run moves its team is weak to and not really miss anything too much, while infernape would like to run 8 moves and really wants them all. Mega Metagross can also run an agility set, however, i think an all out attacking set is much better because it doesnt really need the speed and would benefit more from the extra coverage move.

 

[qways]

I think mew should go down, atleast to b+ if not further. Its stallbreaker set that let him rose so much is totally outclassed by sableye, who does the same job and more.
You would only want to run it, if you use it alongside mvenusaur or charx, but those stall builds are not as effective as msableye stall teams, so a decline is justified.

 

[SketchUp]

alexwolf Can we only discuss the pokemon that are currently in A+ / S rank or also pokemon in A- / A that has the possibility to go to A+ / S? (for example Mega Sableye)

 

[Ruyen]

I dont have time to make a lengthy post on this as I am in a study hall, but I think that Mega Metagross should go to S. It was moved to S during the update that occurred during the Mega Salamence era and it now probably the best mega. It's defensive typing almost got better despite the steel nerf because now it can check/counter so many fairies (like mega gardevoire) while still keeping many dragons in check such as Latios and Latias. It's actually pretty bulky, iirc it can survive a scarf lando-t earthquake if necessary (which is a super effective stab) and im pretty sure it can beat dark pulse greninja 1v1. The bulk just helps out in general and makes it that much harder to check/takedown. Finally, metagross has a phenominal speed tier, hits very hard thanks to tough claws, and has very good coverage despite a slight case of 4mss. To further elaborate on its 4mss, i find it much more similar to greninja than something like infernape as in it can run moves its team is weak to and not really miss anything too much, while infernape would like to run 8 moves and really wants them all. Mega Metagross can also run an agility set, however, i think an all out attacking set is much better because it doesnt really need the speed and would benefit more from the extra coverage move.

I agree it's pretty good but look at these calcs.

252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 266-314 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 268-320 (73.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 203-242 (55.7 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those two are pretty common and they deal with it really well. There are probably more that do the same, but those are the two i thought of.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf Can we only discuss the pokemon that are currently in A+ / S rank or also pokemon in A- / A that has the possibility to go to A+ / S? (for example Mega Sableye)

Only Pokemon that reside in S and A+ ranks.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Changes that took places when mence was here:
Latios: S --> A+
Keldeo: S --> A+
Mega Charizard X: S ---> A+
Mega Metagross: A+ ---> S
Thundurus: A+ ---> S
Azumarill: A+ ---> A
Mega Charizard Y: A+ ---> A
Garchomp: A+ ---> A
Mew: A+ ---> A
Mega Pinsir: A+ ---> B
Mega Venusaur: A+ ---> A

Those that I disagree with now:
Charizard X faced a lot of DD competition from Mence who outclassed it. It still faces competition from Altaria and Gyarados, but can differentiate itself with its high speed and attack. Also it has the Wallbreaking set and Bulky Wisp. Return to S

Mega Pinsir really only dropped because of Mence, it might be little less viable now, but not much to A

 

[Firebird101]

The only change I feel strongly about (and I'm sure most people agree with) that Mega Pinsir shouldn't drop. With Mega Mence gone it is once again the top birdspam wallbreaker. After one sword dance anything that doesn't resist won't survive against it and it's quick attack helps it to sweep as well.

 

[Karxrida]

Too lazy to write up a full argument right now, but something to note about Pinsir is that aerialate Quick Attack is super effectve against a bunch of the new Megas that outspeed him. On phone so I can't post calcs, but I'm like 100% sure that Beedrill and Sceptile die to unboosted QA at least.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Too lazy to write up a full argument right now, but something to note about Pinsir is that aerialate Quick Attack is super effectve against a bunch of the new Megas that outspeeds him. On phone so I can't post calcs, but I'm like 100% sure that Beedrill and Sceptile die to unboosted QA at least.

Yep.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 390-462 (143.9 - 170.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also after some prior damage or a CC drop:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 204-242 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(made sure to edit in the stat changes, although they werent much)

 

[Flare Blitzle]

Yep.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 390-462 (143.9 - 170.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also after some prior damage or a CC drop:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 204-242 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(made sure to edit in the stat changes, although they werent much)

Also Mega Lop, which is in a similar range to Mega Gallade.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[heritage]

On mobile but...
I disagree with Char X in S. Sure it's still a huge threat, but the bulky Will-O-Wisp set is outclassed by Sableye in terms of bulk. Sure it has more offensive presence, but Sableye has Calm Mind and arguably a better ability and a much better typing.

Char X also faces competition with M Altaria as a DDer. M Altaria is much bulkier on the special side, has a much better typing both offensively and defensively, and has a way to deal with status. Charizard X also hates switching in and out of Stealth Rocks. Altaria also doesn't fear Ferro's recoil moves since it can go mixed with Fire Blast. Char X also has to rely on recoil moves or Outrage to do the most damage. (I guess D-Claw works, but Outrage hits like a truck.)
Gyarados also received Crunch this generation and that's all I have to say about that.

Tl;dr: Char X is still a decent Mega, but it faces a lot of competition for a Mega Slot and should stay in A+.

 

[Karxrida]

Also Mega Lop, which is in a similar range to Mega Gallade.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If it switched into SR before Mega Evolving there's a small chance for an OHKO.

 

[Ruyen]

If it switched into SR before Mega Evolving there's a small chance for an OHKO.

252 Atk Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 146-172 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
lopunny can 2HKO and it out speeds so wouldn't lopunny take out pinsir before pinsir could take out it.

 

[Goodra]

252 Atk Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 146-172 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
lopunny can 2HKO and it out speeds

No more then a neutral damage Return would do.

 

[Karxrida]

252 Atk Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 146-172 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
lopunny can 2HKO and it out speeds so wouldn't lopunny take out pinsir before pinsir could take out it.

Quick Attack.

EDIT: Neutral STAB Return hits slightly harder than a super effective Ice Punch (lol auto-correct almost made it "wife punch", totally going to name my Lopunny that), at 153 base power vs. 150.

 

[Celticpride]

has a much better typing both offensively and defensively, and has a way to deal with status.

How the heck is Fire/Dragon worse offensively than Fairy/Dragon? Altaria's defensive typing is slightly better (but closer than you make it out to be), but Fire and Dragon have much better synergy than Dragon/Fairy. This leads to Alt relying on non-STAB moves to do it's job, and that makes it easier to handle and check. Char-X is also immune to burns and really isn't impacted too much by other status. In order for Alt to deal with status it has to drop valuable coverage, leaving it walled by Ferrothorn, Skarm, Venusaur and others. Altaria has basically two completely independent moveset for DD that function very differently, Char-X can either pick between being virtually unwallable (Earthquake) or having reliable recovery (Roost) in one moveslot. That's the problem I really have with all these Alt/Char-X arguments, Alt can do a ton of different stuff but there are very notable tradeoffs depending on what it picks up and drops. Alt also suffers from a lower speed tier. That makes it a weaker DDer imo.

 

[yoloburn]

Altaria is no competition for Char X. It hits nowhere near as hard. You need DD to do damage, while Zard just goes for the Flare Blitz and 2HKOs most switch ins. Altaria is much more easily walled since steels are everywhere. It needs to boost up to 2 DDs to outspeed common scarfers and the super fast megas, whereas Zard X only needs 1 by running Jolly. It needs to run Heal Bell or Sub if it wants to avoid being burned, which means it's running even less coverage. The Zard SD/Tailwind set destroys every stall that doesn't run Heatran and takes down half of a HO team easily. Altaria needs to wait til mid-late game to sweep a team, while you can literally lead with Zard and still wreck teams.

On paper they may look close, but they aren't at all. Zard X is still S-rank and easily the best DDer in the tier. And I'd say it's still the best mega in OU.

 

[Gloating]

I don't understand why people want Mega Charizard X in S so badly. A+ is a great rank to be in too and tbh A+ is probably pushing it but I don't want to argue for something lower because I think I'll get murdered. You need to understand that there are more great Megas in OU than there was in XY. Mega Charizard X faces even more competition for the Mega slot now. Mega Sableye when it comes to stall and all these offensive Megas you can use in offense. 4x SR weakness before evolving doesn't help it's case either. Mega Pinsir is atleast 2x weak before Mega evolving and doesn't have a recoil move that almost ends up dying when killing a Ferrothorn. Honestly whenever I try to team build around Zard X since it was my favorite as a little kid I always just end up switching to another Mega. I have tried every set there is and the only good ones were bulky SD, Jolly DD and Wisp. The ladder which I rather use Mega Sableye who does a lot more for a stall team overall. Bulky SD faces problems against HO and Jolly DD has problems against stall so it's always going to have trouble against certain type of teams. It's just not S. Not to mention that Zard X isn't hard to check at all. We have things like Talonflame, SR, Landorus-T, Heatran, Diancie, Sand Rush, Swift Swim etc, running around in the tier.

Oh and Mega Pinsir should definitely go back up. It's still the menace it was in XY but has gained great match ups against some new Megas.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

alexwolf can you please comment on how heavily we should be weighing opportunity cost? Ive said before I think us weighing it too heavily in our rankings, skews them, but I would just like to hear what you or the council have to say so we can all just follow suit. Otherwise ranking these megas is just impossible.