Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[HolyAvatar]

I think the purpose of the viability thread too often gets lost in these discussions. There isn't some kind of obscure metagame that revolves around the tierings we come up with. These discussions are meant to provide inexperienced players with a tool to aid them in their team building. Suggesting that a mega evolution whose primary functions are by no means exclusive or unequivocally unparalleled ought to occupy an S rank makes no sense to me, because you're essentially suggesting that that mega evolution, whose very presence on your team inherently limits your choices for the rest of your team, should be one of the first Pokemon you consider when building your team.

Actually, since CharX is mainly used as a sweeper and is arguably the best offensive dragon dancer, it should be "the first Pokemon you consider when building your team". It is a strong win condition and building a team around that is probably the best course of action especially for new players.
You say it limits teambuilding for newer players as it is a bad thing. It is simply not. If you are new you will copy other teams or need restrictions to guide you. Freedom doesn't cater to new players at all as demonstrated by all the new casual hand holding games.

It is one of easiest to use pokemon (thanks to defog, removing hazard is much simpler) yet very effective. It seems to fit all your criteria to be honest.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I think the purpose of the viability thread too often gets lost in these discussions. There isn't some kind of obscure metagame that revolves around the tierings we come up with. These discussions are meant to provide inexperienced players with a tool to aid them in their team building. Suggesting that a mega evolution whose primary functions are by no means exclusive or unequivocally unparalleled ought to occupy an S rank makes no sense to me, because you're essentially suggesting that that mega evolution, whose very presence on your team inherently limits your choices for the rest of your team, should be one of the first Pokemon you consider when building your team.


This argument has been aired on numerous occasions during the last 5+ pages of discussion and rebutted just as frequently. Assume your opponent has a Dugtrio. This might seem to suggest that Altaria does not run Earthquake. It still does not tell you what kind of spread Altaria is running or what its other moves might b e. It does not tell you if it's going to profit from or heal off status (Facade or Heal Bell), run a bulky or a speedy DD set, or even if it's going to pull off assey Sing shenanigans. It does not even tell you if Altaria is going to DD at all or whether it's going to be used as a wall, a special attacker, or one of the innumerable hybrid builds running around.

Further, the simple and bald truth is that Zard X is just as easy to figure out from team preview. To save time, I'm just going to CP Srn's last post for your convenience:

No point in ranting about this(although I want to), but you are just being hypocritical. To say you never know altaria's set but then say it is super easy to figure out not only what mega charizard is but also its set is just ridiculous. If we are talking in hypotheticals, which it seems we are, I could(and have) used the exact team from that force of nature chary RMT and just replace him with charizard x just to psych out my opponent. Srn basically made the same case for altaria saying a good player could use different mons as lures, well charx would be a great lure in that scenario as someone would likely switch a chansey or latias into charx because "it is so easy to see its a chary from team preview" and then get completely bopped.

I am just saying that the argument goes both ways and you cant just apply the argument when it benefits your case and ignore it when it doesnt.

 

[WideTomato]

I think it is out right stupid that we keep comparing Charizard and Alteria (and gyarados, but it only seem to be used as a lame counter argument; we cannot compare zard and alta, lets compare to zard you know the drill) when in reality they are not that comparable we should focus on comparing them to the rest of the meta. A good argument for alteria to raise is not It outclasses zard, and neither visa versa. Its not like we have to have one dd sweeper in S, one in A+ and one in A

Instead, i think we should speak out on how they fare against the rest of the meta, considder risk/reward factor of using it, what team support does it need, what does it set up on (the dd veriants) etc. Also, good potential coverage is not necessarily a huge plus, we are all aware that alteria can run fairy + ground + fire, which is insane coverage, but it does not help it if it in reality only can afford running 1 or 2 attacking moves, the same goes for zard.

well, that was my two cent on that topic, now for my actual nominations/opinions on the topic ^^

(S) --> A+
I think the change to ORAS have been a bit harsh to our first generation baby. While the general speedcreep does not effect it very much, its still the fastest OU dragon dancer, and it still fares decently against some common scarfers, there have been a couple of new megas whom makes it a little less viable (

+

) Mega sableye is the new face of stall, and gives the bulky wisp set a lot of competition, even enough to the point where that set would rarely be considdered on a stall team. Mega slowbro is just a really good check that will almost always beat any variant of charizard.

Charizard have also gotten a bit more competition as a dragon dance sweeper, thanks to gyarados arguably have gotten better with the new move tutors.

TL;DR Competition as a dragon dancer and outclassed as a wisper is enough to push it down.

(A) --> A+
With the new move tutor introduced in oras, gyarados have access to a lot better natural coverage in water/dark, which means he have more freedom in hes other moveslot, making him able to run a succesfull taunt set, something he wished he could in XY. This makes gyara a much better stall breaker, as it is able to get past sableye and skarmary. It also enables him to beat some of his former defensive counters, such as slowbro and power whip less ferrothorn.

The general speed creep is also a very little problem, as he can outrun beedrill and sceptile at plus 1, simply by opting for a jolly nature.

(A+) --> A-
With sabley being the face of stall, mews stallbreaking capabilities are essentially gone.

(A+) --> A
I think mega venusaur have gotten a lot of competition as a wall, especially on stall. It also fears the large amount of psychic types roaming around the ladder. It is still decent glue on offence and balance, i think A is fair.

 

[GOthee]

Charizard definetly should be Rank S .Like [MegaScizor, member: 207611"] mentioned he can come an elimitate Char X checks or counters .I thik its because the unpredictability of the Mega it could be. If they switch their Chansey hoping for Y they get destroyed by X ,if you had it of course. The same logic can be used for his Y mega, the enemy could be expecting X and send his X counter only to find out it was Y !!. WE all agree how powerfull both Megas are, shoulnt it be fair both are same rank??

 

[WideTomato]

Charizard definetly should be Rank S .Like [MegaScizor, member: 207611"] mentioned he can come an elimitate Char X checks or counters .I thik its because the unpredictability of the Mega it could be. If they switch their Chansey hoping for Y they get destroyed by X ,if you had it of course. The same logic can be used for his Y mega, the enemy could be expecting X and send his X counter only to find out it was Y !!. WE all agree how powerfull both Megas are, shoulnt it be fair both are same rank??

Just because they benefits from each others existence does not mean they are equally good, if they where separate pokemon before going mega, they might have been A and A+, but because of the unpredictability of them being able to go both ways, it pushed them to A+ and S

Im not saying this is the reason, they just dont have to be the same rank just because they bennefits from each other.

 

[dbzeenx]

You guys are discussing whether or not Char-x should be moved to A+? I don't know. Altaria is just like another Azumarill in regards whether or not it's able to wall Char-x. It's difficult for it, but it does 2HKO Mega Altaria after 1 DD. Yeah, it does wall Char-x but by themselves, Char-x has the upper hand over Mega Altaria.

-Better speed
-Incredible attack
-Better Sp. Attack
-Slightly better Defense
-Better typing
-Doesn't have 2x weakness to ice. Water types are extremely common and 99% use Ice type moves.
-It's not weak against Fairy types.
-It's not weak against Steel types. Here my friends, is where a M-Metagross or Lucario comes in and wrecks Mega altaria.


Now the cons against Char-x are:

-Altaria is immune against dragon types
-Excellent typing thanks to dragon
-It's a bit more versatile
-Has cotton guard.


Also Charizard has the advantage of having two mega evolutions. Char-Y wrecks Altaria so there's the doubt: "Should I switch to mega altaria?" It's very risky.

 

[dbzeenx]

You guys are discussing whether or not Char-x should be moved to A+? I don't know. Altaria is just like another Azumarill in regards whether or not it's able to wall Char-x. It's difficult for it, but it does 2HKO Mega Altaria after 1 DD. Yeah, it does wall Char-x but by themselves, Char-x has the upper hand over Mega Altaria.

-Better speed
-Incredible attack
-Better Sp. Attack
-Slightly better Defense
-Better typing
-Doesn't have 2x weakness to ice. Water types are extremely common and 99% use Ice type moves.
-It's not weak against Fairy types.
-It's not weak against Steel types. Here my friends, is where a M-Metagross or Lucario comes in and wrecks Mega altaria.


Now the cons against Char-x are:

-Altaria is immune against dragon types
-Excellent typing thanks to dragon
-It's a bit more versatile
-Has cotton guard.


Also Charizard has the advantage of having two mega evolutions. Char-Y wrecks Altaria so there's the doubt: "Should I switch to mega altaria?" It's very risky.

And one more thing, Zard X has access to Iron Tail now.


Charizard X --> S ----> S

 

[Kurona]

And one more thing, Zard X has access to Iron Tail now.


Charizard X --> S ----> S

Zard X always had access to Iron Tail.
It's also always been a very very bad option. Your coverage should only ever be Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Dragon Claw/Outrage and maybe Earthquake. You're really not going to get any better than that and you have no room for Iron Tail which is incredibly risky due to it's accuracy.
Also, don't double post. If you have anything to add and no-one else has posted since your last post, use edit.

 

[boltsandbombers]

And one more thing, Zard X has access to Iron Tail now.


Charizard X --> S ----> S

Just because it has access to Iron Tail doesnt mean it deserves S rank. I've stated why I think that it should be in A+ not S multiple times, and I strongly agree with everything Agent Gibbs said.
Also, Cotton Guard is a niche move at best and should not be listed in a pros or cons section of something.
Please dont double post, it is against the rules and just clutters up the thread.
edit: damn ninjas
edit 2: "Charizard-Y wrecks altaria"
I dont think you could be any more wrong. It resists its stab move and all of its coverage moves and has great special defense. Especially if youre using bulky DD, altaria is a safe switch in to zard Y.

 

[megabackingengar]

You guys are discussing whether or not Char-x should be moved to A+? I don't know. Altaria is just like another Azumarill in regards whether or not it's able to wall Char-x. It's difficult for it, but it does 2HKO Mega Altaria after 1 DD. Yeah, it does wall Char-x but by themselves, Char-x has the upper hand over Mega Altaria.

-Better speed
-Incredible attack
-Better Sp. Attack
-Slightly better Defense
-Better typing
-Doesn't have 2x weakness to ice. Water types are extremely common and 99% use Ice type moves.
-It's not weak against Fairy types.
-It's not weak against Steel types. Here my friends, is where a M-Metagross or Lucario comes in and wrecks Mega altaria.


Now the cons against Char-x are:

-Altaria is immune against dragon types
-Excellent typing thanks to dragon
-It's a bit more versatile
-Has cotton guard.


Also Charizard has the advantage of having two mega evolutions. Char-Y wrecks Altaria so there's the doubt: "Should I switch to mega altaria?" It's very risky.

Not going to be rude.But the facts u give are quite un accurate.

-Better special attack=Charizard X never uses it's special attack so it's inrelevant because dragon pulse sucks as a STAB and char y outclasses it.Mega Altaria is a better special attacker in many ways that i'm not going to be describe here.

-Better typing=The main reason that mega altaria becomes so good is it's amazing typing so u can't really say better typing here.

-Doesn't have 2x weakness to ice.Water types are extremely common and 99% have ice moves=No bro,this isn't DPP ou.Rotom-W,keldeo,gyarados and azumarill will never run ice moves while manaphy and slowbro will usually not pack them.

-You can't really give the weakness thing a pro.Then,mega altaria will have the advantage of the lack of ground weakness when faced against scarf chomp and scarf lando-t.

-Cotton Guard is shit.

 

[dbzeenx]

Just because it has access to Iron Tail doesnt mean it deserves S rank. I've stated why I think that it should be in A+ not S multiple times, and I strongly agree with everything Agent Gibbs said.
Also, Cotton Guard is a niche move at best and should not be listed in a pros or cons section of something.
Please dont double post, it is against the rules and just clutters up the thread.
edit: damn ninjas

I liked your post because you're cool.

 

[Ruyen]

Is it viable to run brick break on Zard-x? It breaks some screens that might be in the way, and it gives it coverage.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Is it viable to run brick break on Zard-x? It breaks some screens that might be in the way, and it gives it coverage.

No, it is not viable. We have discussed this multiple times, just dont use it.
Also, screens are not really common.

 

[Kyuzeth]

You guys are discussing whether or not Char-x should be moved to A+? I don't know. Altaria is just like another Azumarill in regards whether or not it's able to wall Char-x. It's difficult for it, but it does 2HKO Mega Altaria after 1 DD. Yeah, it does wall Char-x but by themselves, Char-x has the upper hand over Mega Altaria.

-Better speed; Still outsped by a large slew of common Pokémon when unboosted.
-Incredible attack; The main draw it has over Mega Altaria, but the latter has opportunities to get a second boost in.
-Better Sp. Attack; Mega Charizard X doesn't use its Special Attack, so this point is moot.
-Slightly better Defense; Negligible difference.
-Better typing; Blatantly false. Offensively, it's slightly better, yes, but defensively, Dragon/Fairy is a much better typing overall.
-Doesn't have 2x weakness to ice. Water types are extremely common and 99% use Ice type moves. Ice-type moves are not that common.
-It's not weak against Fairy types. But it does have weaknesses to Dragon, Rock and Ground, which means it takes 25% SR damage.
-It's not weak against Steel types. Here my friends, is where a M-Metagross or Lucario comes in and wrecks Mega altaria. Lucario is uncommon and can't switch in on any of Mega Altaria's moves. Mega Metagross takes hefty damage from Fire Blast or +1 Earthquake.


Now the cons against Char-x are:

-Altaria is immune against dragon types; This means it can switch in on a shitton of things in OU.
-Excellent typing thanks to dragon; Do you mean its Dragon/Fairy-type in general? If so, then yes.
-It's a bit more versatile; You mean it's far more versatile? It can run many more sets overall thanks to its movepool, Ability and typing.
-Has cotton guard. Doesn't use Cotton Guard that much.


Also Charizard has the advantage of having two mega evolutions. Char-Y wrecks Altaria so there's the doubt: "Should I switch to mega altaria?" It's very risky.
Again, you're wrong. Sure, Megazard Y can 2HKO with Fire Blast, but it can't stomach repeated hits from Mega Altaria. Considering both Mega Charizard function vastly differently, I can't consider this an argument, since Mega Altaria checks both variants anyway.

Replies in bold.

EDIT: Yippee.

Yes, I CAN say it has better typing. Whether or not water types use ice beam you have to admit that ice type moves are really common.
They haven't been common for some time. Mega Slowbro usually doesn't run Ice Beam on mono- or dual-attack sets.

-Yes it has that ground advantage but it's not that good anyway. I'm defending the resistances because ICE, STEEL, POISON AND FAIRY are not good types to be weak to.
And that completely makes its seven resistances, namely Grass, Fire, Water, Electric, Fighting, Dark and Bug irrelevant, as well as a Dragon immunity?

-It still has better special attack stat-wise.
Mega Charizard X does NOT use its Special Attack. Irrelevant.

EDIT II:

I cannot believe how biased you have your Altaria there.
I'm laughing so hard at how incredibly hypocritical you're being right now.

EDIT III:

Altaria has a crappy speed. Worse than Charizard's.
Yes, but its Dragon/Fairy-type combined with its 75/110/105 more than makes up for it and allows it to potentially get a second DD in.

Zard x still can use dd and it has a terrifying attack and speed after that.
Indeed, but 100 Speed simply isn't as good as it used to be. Also, Scarfers.

M-Metagross does nothing against Zard-X.
Earthquake and TC Zen Headbutt can do a number to Zard-X at the very least. Just saying, 145 Attack is higher than 130 and both have Tough Claws. I know Mega Metagross will likely fall to a Flare Blitz, but who keeps their Mega Metagross in on a Zard X anyway?

M-Sableye has the shittiest speed I've ever seen? Where did you get that the meta is becoming fast attackers? Is slowbro suddenly fastbro?
...what? Seriously-- what are you SAYING here?

EDIT IV:

You have joined before me, still, you noob-bag. Also you have less posts. It'd be more likely that this was your first day actually. Also I haven't been so immature to personally attack other people when I get mad, like you. So in fact, the one who is acting like a child is you.
So let me get this straight; you first insult DaVolt for a 'noob-bag', then proceed to state you haven't personally attacked anybody. You've immediately contradicted yourself and are being a total hypocrite again. Good job, buddy.

EDIT V: I'm having the time of my life.

1. Zard X also has D.D!!
NO SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...seriously.

2. EQ doesn't OHKO Zard X. Why would Metagross use rock-type attacks.
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 238-280 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Come again?

EDIT VI:

1. I myself run Zard X at 252 speed EVs.
Good for ya.

2. Altaria doesn't even compare after 1 D.D to Charizard X after 1 D.D
Yes, but due to its typing, Mega Altaria can often get a second DD in and reach a similar level of power while becoming much faster.

3.It doesn't OHKO it.
After SR damage. Learn your Pokémon terminology, please.

4. It's actually worthy.
What do you even MEAN with this? You're so fucking biased on Mega Charizard X, it's almost saddening. You can't even give a valid reason for it to stay S; besides, A+ is still a good rank. Mega Charizard X is objectively less good than it used to be, so THAT is why it should drop.

 

[dbzeenx]

Not going to be rude.But the facts u give are quite un accurate.

-Better special attack=Charizard X never uses it's special attack so it's inrelevant because dragon pulse sucks as a STAB and char y outclasses it.Mega Altaria is a better special attacker in many ways that i'm not going to be describe here.

-Better typing=The main reason that mega altaria becomes so good is it's amazing typing so u can't really say better typing here.

-Doesn't have 2x weakness to ice.Water types are extremely common and 99% have ice moves=No bro,this isn't DPP ou.Rotom-W,keldeo,gyarados and azumarill will never run ice moves while manaphy and slowbro will usually not pack them.

-You can't really give the weakness thing a pro.Then,mega altaria will have the advantage of the lack of ground weakness when faced against scarf chomp and scarf lando-t.

-Cotton Guard is shit.

Yes, I CAN say it has better typing. Whether or not water types use ice beam you have to admit that ice type moves are really common.

-Yes it has that ground advantage but it's not that good anyway. I'm defending the resistances because ICE, STEEL, POISON AND FAIRY are not good types to be weak to.

-It still has better special attack stat-wise.

 

[dbzeenx]

Replies in bold.

I cannot believe how biased you have your Altaria there.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Before i leave, i dont see why you would put something like Iron Tail on Char X and advantage. What does that cover? Nothing.

Although Char X has formidable stats, comparing Char X to Altaria and saying to keep it at S rank cause of that one pokemon is where you fault. Many pokemon outspeed it and OHKO it in this meta, mostly the new megas. Although it boasts a good typing, good attack, meh speed and its decent special attack, it also has its cons. One of it is being its Defenses. And while you think 78/111 Physical defense is good, the meta is turning into fast hard hitters, you see. And now with its once amazing speed tier gone, it cannot outspeed and take out those pokemon.
Also, dont understand why you are pointing out MAltarias weaknesses. Zard X has some, too. Ground weakness is horrible as EQ is common as hell, and with its Rock weakness it gets cockblocked by Lando T or Voltturn cores, which do amazing in this meta.
Dragon weakness is also bad, for obvious reasons. No, not MMence, im not stupid. im talking about Altaria, who can easily OHKO it with a +1 EQ or a +1 Return. MAltaria in most cases counter Zard X, so why are you comparing it to MAlt again?

All in all, this beast needs to be slain to A+. still a great mon but faces mega slot opportunity and its horrible speed tier.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I cannot believe how biased you have your Altaria there.

Is it really that hard to edit your posts? Double posting is against the rules.
Also, what he said is not biased, everything makes sense.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Is it really that hard to edit your posts? Double posting is against the rules.
Also, what he said is not biased, everything makes sense.

Its his first day, dont go rough on the kids.

 

[dbzeenx]

Before i leave, i dont see why you would put something like Iron Tail on Char X and advantage. What does that cover? Nothing.

Although Char X has formidable stats, comparing Char X to Altaria and saying to keep it at S rank cause of that one pokemon is where you fault. Many pokemon outspeed it and OHKO it in this meta, mostly the new megas. Although it boasts a good typing, good attack, meh speed and its decent special attack, it also has its cons. One of it is being its Defenses. And while you think 78/111 Physical defense is good, the meta is turning into fast hard hitters, you see. And now with its once amazing speed tier gone, it cannot outspeed and take out those pokemon.
Also, dont understand why you are pointing out MAltarias weaknesses. Zard X has some, too. Ground weakness is horrible as EQ is common as hell, and with its Rock weakness it gets cockblocked by Lando T or Voltturn cores, which do amazing in this meta.
Dragon weakness is also bad, for obvious reasons. No, not MMence, im not stupid. im talking about Altaria, who can easily OHKO it with a +1 EQ or a +1 Return. MAltaria in most cases counter Zard X, so why are you comparing it to MAlt again?

All in all, this beast needs to be slain to A+. still a great mon but faces mega slot opportunity and its horrible speed tier.

Altaria has a crappy speed. Worse than Charizard's.

Zard x still can use dd and it has a terrifying attack and speed after that.

M-Metagross does nothing against Zard-X.

M-Sableye has the shittiest speed I've ever seen? Where did you get that the meta is becoming fast attackers? Is slowbro suddenly fastbro?

 

[boltsandbombers]

Its his first day, dont go rough on the kids.

I'm not going to continue this, but it is not his first day. There is a post that says "REQUIRED READING" that contains all the rules, you would think people would read that before posting.

 

[dbzeenx]

Is it really that hard to edit your posts? Double posting is against the rules.
Also, what he said is not biased, everything makes sense.

What I'm saying is that M-Altaria is like God to you guys. It has 4 weaknesses, Meh offensive capabilities. Its defensive capabilities aren't that good either. If they were like Slowbro's stats then you'd be right.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Altaria has a crappy speed. Worse than Charizard's.

Zard x still can use dd and it has a terrifying attack and speed after that.

M-Metagross does nothing against Zard-X.

M-Sableye has the shittiest speed I've ever seen? Where did you get that the meta is becoming fast attackers? Is slowbro suddenly fastbro?

Obviously you are ignorant and/or a troll like i was.

Hint no 1: Altaria can DDance too and can run bulky sets. Surprise.

Mega Metagross can also pack EQ, and it can probably easily OHKO Zard X with rocks.

Now, the final part is what got to me that you are ignorant or trollish. Gamefreak wanted to spice up the meta by bringing bulky and fast mons. The slow mons are mostly seen on stall/bulky offense, while the faster ones are usually on Balance/HO teams. they wont just introduce a shitload of fast sweepers.

 

[dbzeenx]

Its his first day, dont go rough on the kids.

You have joined before me, still, you noob-bag. Also you have less posts. It'd be more likely that this was your first day actually. Also I haven't been so immature to personally attack other people when I get mad, like you. So in fact, the one who is acting like a child is you.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

You have joined before me, still, you noob-bag. Also you have less posts. It'd be more likely that this was your first day actually. Also I haven't been so immature to personally attack other people when I get mad, like you. So in fact, the one who is acting like a child is you.

Since i shouldnt be hiding behind this cloak, i am none of your buisness. I have been here since March of 2014 and lurked and joined the forums in April. Dont get defensive or else you shall face the path that i once took.
Now stop your shinanigans or else mods will take further action.