No, I don't think so. It's technically not banned yet and I'm pretty sure they didn't even confirm if it's getting quickbanned; it could get suspected. However unlikely that is, it's still a possibility. Furthermore, it's still in the metagame and it'll just be that whole Aegislash ranking period shitfest again where on the very day of it being banned people wanted Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross in S. My point is we should a.) give it like two weeks after MMence banned and b.) firstly, wait for the verdict on it (although we all know it's probably gonna be banned.)
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
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I mean, if you want to play with hypotheticals, we'll be here all day. Basically, the opponent is going to have to make sure to never kill something with Draco Meteor, never use Scarf Landorus-T's Earthquake/Stone Edge/Superpower, never use Keldeo's Hydro Pump/Secret Sword, etc. if they don't want to give Gyarados a setup opportunity, which of course is going to put a lot of pressure on them. Chances are, an opportunity is going to open up eventually, and if you want to assume that Gyarados's opponent is skilled enough to identify and avoid these opportunities, then I can just as easily assume that the Gyarados player is skilled enough to play smart and force them. But regardless, I recognize that Sharpedo boosts up more easily versus offense, but it's not like it's a ton better than Gyarados given the latter's ability to find setup opportunities via its bulk and two useful typings.
But again, the central question isn't whether or not Sharpedo is good at being a late-game sweeper. It's whether or not it's worth cashing in your Mega slot for a Pokemon that basically sweeps late-game and tosses around Crunches but doesn't offer much else. Sharpedo is a good late-game sweeper (albeit it does have trouble with faster Scarf users if it isn't fortunate enough to get to +2, as well as strong priority), but Gyarados (and several other Megas, I don't want to just single out Mega Gyarados here) can still find opportunities to set up and sweep offensive teams while giving its team so much more. It may not directly outclass Sharpedo, but it's still so much more attractive to me as a teambuilder because of the extra stuff it provides.
But then again, we've got stuff like Mega Houndoom and Mega Camerupt up there, so maybe B-/B isn't such a bad place lol.
I don't see a quickban on the item, but I can see a suspect for it. It's insanely powerful giving either Lati a free CM, but in this day and age I think it might possibly be balanced. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but I don't think a quickban would be the best idea in this case.
I was going to bring this up earlier and forgot, but Starmie should move down to B possibly B-. What made it B+ in the first place was the Reflect Type set, which was a set that I loved using back in XY. However, this set is nowhere near as good in ORAS, partly becuase of the speed creep making it less of a reliable spinner, but mainly (and I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here) because of Sableye. Sableye completely spinblocks the set, so any team relying on Starmie to remove hazards will never be able to remove their own hazard vs a team with Sableye on it. This is made worse by the fact that Bulky Starmie is mainly used on Stall and Semistall, and Stall vs Stall matchups pretty much boil down to who can keep their hazards up, so a Starmie stall team will usually lose a Sableye stall team from matchup alone.
But opposing Sableye isn't the only problem here. If you're running stall (which, as I said, is the playstyle where Bulkmie used to be the most common), you're probably running Sableye. Starmie's great advantage was that it was able to beat almost any rock setter besides Clefable. However, Sableye also does this, not only that, but it also loses to Clefable. So, if you're using Sableye, you want a hazard remover which can actually take on Clefable. This is why Tentacruel (who needs to move to like B but that can be discussed later) has replaced Starmie as the go-to spinner on stall, reducing Starmie's viability on those types of teams by quite a lot. I haven't used the offensive set so I don't know how effective it is (and that set actually does beat Sableye which is certainly nice), but based on the merits of the Reflect Type set alone it needs to move down.
But opposing Sableye isn't the only problem here. If you're running stall (which, as I said, is the playstyle where Bulkmie used to be the most common), you're probably running Sableye. Starmie's great advantage was that it was able to beat almost any rock setter besides Clefable. However, Sableye also does this, not only that, but it also loses to Clefable. So, if you're using Sableye, you want a hazard remover which can actually take on Clefable. This is why Tentacruel (who needs to move to like B but that can be discussed later) has replaced Starmie as the go-to spinner on stall, reducing Starmie's viability on those types of teams by quite a lot. I haven't used the offensive set so I don't know how effective it is (and that set actually does beat Sableye which is certainly nice), but based on the merits of the Reflect Type set alone it needs to move down.
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Soul dew is and always has been nonsense. You're giving the best offensive defogger in the game choice specs AND an assault vest with none of the drawbacks that those items carry. I hope it isn't anywhere near ORAS and if it is I hope the community do the right thing and ban it as quickly as possible.
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Free assault vest+specs when the LO sets were already A+ (Latias) and S (Latios), no thanks.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Latias: 240-284 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 119-141 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No please. (Didn't fin Soul Dew in the calc).
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You may not like it but as long as it isn't broken on Latias the suspect would be Latios not Soul Dew.
I personally prefer to just call it a free calm mind but yeah, soul dew is pretty much the only item to even consider on the lati twins. If possible it's probably best to just quick-ban as it gives two of the best and most commonly used pokemon in the OU tier an uber-level buff.
No... That doesn't make sense at all. What Karxrida said is perfectly legit, as giving any Pokemon a 1.5 boost to 2 stats with no drawbacks is way too good, and possibly broken in the OU metagame. Latios and Latias certainly are not broken or worthy of being suspected, they're just really good.
Too bad it's broken on Latias too.
Okay, so just to transition from my earlier post to this one, I think there's an important question that has to be asked before we get too carried away with ranking Megas: how much are we willing to weigh the opportunity cost of using up a Mega slot in the ranking of these Mega Pokemon? Here's a huge wall of text summarizing my thoughts on this issue (it's been a slow day here). Agree or disagree if you'd like, this is just my stream of consciousness as I think about this issue.
TL;DR: The question of how much the competition for a Mega slot should count against some of the lower-ranked Megas is an important question that I think needs a bit of discussion. Some Mega Pokemon like Sharpedo and Latios would arguably deserve higher ranks if not for this competition, and then it begs the question about how much it should count against the higher Megas as well. Obviously, there's no clear-cut answer to this question, so I'm interested to see what kind of discussion comes out of it.
The single greatest reason that I've been so harsh on Pokemon like Mega Sharpedo and Mega Camerupt is that despite the numerous perks that they bring to the table, I don't find them to be impressive enough to warrant using up my Mega slot on them most of the time. This was a present problem for many Mega Pokemon in XY, but I think that the recent influx of new Megas in ORAS has exacerbated the problem. To illustrate what I mean, the old viability ranking thread had 12 Mega Pokemon in the A-S Ranks. The new rankings including the new Megas have a total of 22 Mega Pokemon, nearly twice as what we had before (note: this isn't taking into account some of the rises and drops that have been discussed earlier in this thread). That means that every Mega Pokemon that was already lower on the totem pole to begin with now has to compete with many more Mega Pokemon that are just better overall, which is obviously going to have an impact on their viability (unless they happen to benefit from certain changes in the metagame).
Now, the obvious followup question is, "If the competition for that Mega slot affects the viability of these Mega Pokemon, then what does that say about the ones that are ranked at or near the top, such as Mega Salamence and Mega Charizard X?" Let me put it this way: when you hear me talk about things like Mega Camerupt and Mega Sharpedo, I often compare them to other Mega Pokemon that are better overall. The thing is, these other higher ranked Megas are the better Mega Pokemon that I'm talking about. They all offer something that makes them stand out not only among the regular Pokemon in the metagame, but among other Mega Pokemon as well. This can be anything from unique and useful traits that nothing else can boast to extreme talent in one particular area that makes them stand out (i.e. lots of Pokemon can Dragon Dance, but nothing sets up and sweeps quite as easily as Mega Salamence). These Pokemon aren't so much the ones that compete for the Mega slot with other, lower-ranked Megas, rather it's those lower ranked Megas that compete for the slot with these Pokemon, if that makes sense. All that said, the competition for the Mega slot is still there for these Pokemon, and it is somewhat awkward to weigh that competition more heavily for something like Mega Sharpedo than for something like Mega Salamence. That's why I believe some discussion on this factor would be a good idea and that we need to talk about what other factors should go into making this decision.
One of the things that I try to take into account besides the competition for a Mega slot is how much the Pokemon stands out on its own. Take, for instance, Mega Altaria. I'm fine with seeing it ranked as high as it is because of how unique it is. There are no other Fairy-type Dragon Dancers. There are no other Dragon / Fairy Pokemon in the game, period. While it may receive competition in some of its sub-roles (such as "Dragon Dance sweeper" or "bulky Fairy"), nothing offers the combination of unique typing, movepool, bulk, and offensive presence that Mega Altaria can bring to the table. Now compare this to Mega Sharpedo. The reason I keep comparing it to Mega Gyarados is because of how similar they are. Mega Gyarados has the same typing as Mega Sharpedo, a very similar offensive movepool, and a similar primary role as a physical sweeper. It also has a higher base Atk stat, far more bulk, a great boosting move in Dragon Dance, and the advantage of having a great normal form in addition to its Mega form. Now, Mega Sharpedo has advantages too: it has more speed, a stronger initial Crunch, and most importantly, the ability to basically guarantee a free Speed Boost with Protect. My problem is that I just don't see these perks as enough to stand out among other Mega Pokemon when another Mega (Gyarados, in this case) can do much of the same stuff with even more substantial perks of its own. It isn't just competing for a Mega slot; it's also competing with another Mega that is pretty similar in several ways, and thus it doesn't have those stand-out qualities that higher-ranked Megas like Altaria and Metagross have. Therefore, in my opinion, the cost of taking up a Mega slot weighs significantly more heavily against Mega Sharpedo than it does for many other Megas, and this applies to some of the other lower-ranked Megas as well. This is how I reconcile weighing the Mega competition more heavily against Sharpedo than for many other Megas in my mind.
Now, let me be clear about one thing: I don't think that Mega Sharpedo (or any of the other lower-ranked Megas I've mentioned in the past) are bad, nor that they may not be worth a solid rank in their own right. The problem is that I'm trying to approach this from a teambuilding standpoint. I could build a team around Mega Sharpedo or something and it would probably work quite nicely. However, when I look for a Mega Pokemon as a teambuilder, I'm looking for something that either stands out as extremely good at one particular job or something that can do something unique while plugging up other holes and/or offering unique team support. For example, I used to love running the standard tank Charizard X with a good bit more Speed and Attack investment because it could hit pretty hard, burn stuff, and check a lot of important Pokemon such as the Electrics, Mega Scizor, Mew, and Bisharp. I also liked DD Mega Gyarados because besides being a pretty reliable sweeper, it could also utilize its solid bulk, Intimidate, and cool typing in both forms to check several different offensive Pokemon such as Keldeo, Landorus, and again, Bisharp. Offensive Mega Venusaur was another one that myself and many others liked because it could both hit pretty hard and tank hits from a number of dangerous Pokemon (Azumarill being a big one), which was great for some offensive teams. Mega Lopunny is a new one that may not offer much defense, but its natural speed and perfect coverage between its two strong STABs along with the variety of utility it can have with its remaining two moveslots make it stand out as both a solid offensive Pokemon/check to many slower Pokemon and in some ways a team player as well. This tendency of mine to gravitate towards Megas that do more than just one particular job and claim that kind of versatility is one thing that makes me less inclined to pick Mega Sharpedo in teambuilding unless I just really wanted to use Mega Sharpedo. That's why I'm leaning to a lower rank with something like it; it can work when it needs to, but other Mega Pokemon can do their own primary jobs while offering other secondary duties as well, which I find Mega Sharpedo to have a harder time doing.
So to summarize, I think an important topic of discussion should be how we are going to weigh the cost of using up a Mega slot. This goes beyond just Mega Sharpedo and such: Mega Latios is one Mega that I'd argue is a bit better than regular Latios, and if it were ranked based on its own merits alone, it would arguably be worthy of something in the ballpark of A+ rank. However, it's currently ranked far lower than regular Latios is because, while it may be somewhat better than its normal form, the boosts aren't significant enough to warrant being used over another Mega form unless you just really don't have a need for one. Likewise, Mega Sharpedo is pretty cool in its own right, and I'd be more than happy to support a small raise based on how it can function in its own right. However, there's also the question of whether or not you'd want to use up your Mega slot for it, and I'm just not sure that the perks it offers are worth giving up the ability to use one of many other great Megas in OU more often than not.
Now, the obvious followup question is, "If the competition for that Mega slot affects the viability of these Mega Pokemon, then what does that say about the ones that are ranked at or near the top, such as Mega Salamence and Mega Charizard X?" Let me put it this way: when you hear me talk about things like Mega Camerupt and Mega Sharpedo, I often compare them to other Mega Pokemon that are better overall. The thing is, these other higher ranked Megas are the better Mega Pokemon that I'm talking about. They all offer something that makes them stand out not only among the regular Pokemon in the metagame, but among other Mega Pokemon as well. This can be anything from unique and useful traits that nothing else can boast to extreme talent in one particular area that makes them stand out (i.e. lots of Pokemon can Dragon Dance, but nothing sets up and sweeps quite as easily as Mega Salamence). These Pokemon aren't so much the ones that compete for the Mega slot with other, lower-ranked Megas, rather it's those lower ranked Megas that compete for the slot with these Pokemon, if that makes sense. All that said, the competition for the Mega slot is still there for these Pokemon, and it is somewhat awkward to weigh that competition more heavily for something like Mega Sharpedo than for something like Mega Salamence. That's why I believe some discussion on this factor would be a good idea and that we need to talk about what other factors should go into making this decision.
One of the things that I try to take into account besides the competition for a Mega slot is how much the Pokemon stands out on its own. Take, for instance, Mega Altaria. I'm fine with seeing it ranked as high as it is because of how unique it is. There are no other Fairy-type Dragon Dancers. There are no other Dragon / Fairy Pokemon in the game, period. While it may receive competition in some of its sub-roles (such as "Dragon Dance sweeper" or "bulky Fairy"), nothing offers the combination of unique typing, movepool, bulk, and offensive presence that Mega Altaria can bring to the table. Now compare this to Mega Sharpedo. The reason I keep comparing it to Mega Gyarados is because of how similar they are. Mega Gyarados has the same typing as Mega Sharpedo, a very similar offensive movepool, and a similar primary role as a physical sweeper. It also has a higher base Atk stat, far more bulk, a great boosting move in Dragon Dance, and the advantage of having a great normal form in addition to its Mega form. Now, Mega Sharpedo has advantages too: it has more speed, a stronger initial Crunch, and most importantly, the ability to basically guarantee a free Speed Boost with Protect. My problem is that I just don't see these perks as enough to stand out among other Mega Pokemon when another Mega (Gyarados, in this case) can do much of the same stuff with even more substantial perks of its own. It isn't just competing for a Mega slot; it's also competing with another Mega that is pretty similar in several ways, and thus it doesn't have those stand-out qualities that higher-ranked Megas like Altaria and Metagross have. Therefore, in my opinion, the cost of taking up a Mega slot weighs significantly more heavily against Mega Sharpedo than it does for many other Megas, and this applies to some of the other lower-ranked Megas as well. This is how I reconcile weighing the Mega competition more heavily against Sharpedo than for many other Megas in my mind.
Now, let me be clear about one thing: I don't think that Mega Sharpedo (or any of the other lower-ranked Megas I've mentioned in the past) are bad, nor that they may not be worth a solid rank in their own right. The problem is that I'm trying to approach this from a teambuilding standpoint. I could build a team around Mega Sharpedo or something and it would probably work quite nicely. However, when I look for a Mega Pokemon as a teambuilder, I'm looking for something that either stands out as extremely good at one particular job or something that can do something unique while plugging up other holes and/or offering unique team support. For example, I used to love running the standard tank Charizard X with a good bit more Speed and Attack investment because it could hit pretty hard, burn stuff, and check a lot of important Pokemon such as the Electrics, Mega Scizor, Mew, and Bisharp. I also liked DD Mega Gyarados because besides being a pretty reliable sweeper, it could also utilize its solid bulk, Intimidate, and cool typing in both forms to check several different offensive Pokemon such as Keldeo, Landorus, and again, Bisharp. Offensive Mega Venusaur was another one that myself and many others liked because it could both hit pretty hard and tank hits from a number of dangerous Pokemon (Azumarill being a big one), which was great for some offensive teams. Mega Lopunny is a new one that may not offer much defense, but its natural speed and perfect coverage between its two strong STABs along with the variety of utility it can have with its remaining two moveslots make it stand out as both a solid offensive Pokemon/check to many slower Pokemon and in some ways a team player as well. This tendency of mine to gravitate towards Megas that do more than just one particular job and claim that kind of versatility is one thing that makes me less inclined to pick Mega Sharpedo in teambuilding unless I just really wanted to use Mega Sharpedo. That's why I'm leaning to a lower rank with something like it; it can work when it needs to, but other Mega Pokemon can do their own primary jobs while offering other secondary duties as well, which I find Mega Sharpedo to have a harder time doing.
So to summarize, I think an important topic of discussion should be how we are going to weigh the cost of using up a Mega slot. This goes beyond just Mega Sharpedo and such: Mega Latios is one Mega that I'd argue is a bit better than regular Latios, and if it were ranked based on its own merits alone, it would arguably be worthy of something in the ballpark of A+ rank. However, it's currently ranked far lower than regular Latios is because, while it may be somewhat better than its normal form, the boosts aren't significant enough to warrant being used over another Mega form unless you just really don't have a need for one. Likewise, Mega Sharpedo is pretty cool in its own right, and I'd be more than happy to support a small raise based on how it can function in its own right. However, there's also the question of whether or not you'd want to use up your Mega slot for it, and I'm just not sure that the perks it offers are worth giving up the ability to use one of many other great Megas in OU more often than not.
TL;DR: The question of how much the competition for a Mega slot should count against some of the lower-ranked Megas is an important question that I think needs a bit of discussion. Some Mega Pokemon like Sharpedo and Latios would arguably deserve higher ranks if not for this competition, and then it begs the question about how much it should count against the higher Megas as well. Obviously, there's no clear-cut answer to this question, so I'm interested to see what kind of discussion comes out of it.
I have mixed feelings torwards soul dew staying or not.. I think it might be a little too much in OU for the time being but we have to consiture some things..
Pros:
- Overkill stats
Cons:
- Can't hold another item (particulary scarf which is extremely important in today's greninja, beedrill, and sceptile meta)
- Still completely walled and pursuit trapped by pokemon such as bisharp and tyranitar.
- All their checks and counters seem to still deal rather fine. (Just sylveon but it never was that great at taking LO psyshock anyway.)
- Limits predictability since latios's main advantage was tricking players into thinking it's choiced with expert belt, AV, etc.
I don't know to be honest.. it doesn't deserve quick banned, or to be a suspect test anytime soon but perhaps down the road we may need to reconsiture. If we start seeing things like max SpD latios to deal with two of the above mentioned, then perhaps that'll be the bell ringing be gone.
Pros:
- Overkill stats
Cons:
- Can't hold another item (particulary scarf which is extremely important in today's greninja, beedrill, and sceptile meta)
- Still completely walled and pursuit trapped by pokemon such as bisharp and tyranitar.
- All their checks and counters seem to still deal rather fine. (Just sylveon but it never was that great at taking LO psyshock anyway.)
- Limits predictability since latios's main advantage was tricking players into thinking it's choiced with expert belt, AV, etc.
I don't know to be honest.. it doesn't deserve quick banned, or to be a suspect test anytime soon but perhaps down the road we may need to reconsiture. If we start seeing things like max SpD latios to deal with two of the above mentioned, then perhaps that'll be the bell ringing be gone.
Soul Dew boosted HP Fire has a chance to OHKO Bisharp while I'm pretty sure HP Fighting can 2HKO T-Tar.
It's been that way for awhile though. Bisharp and tyranitar still deal the same way as before, predicting the moveset, and in bisharp's case 50/50 with sucker punch vs. pursuit
So what if bisharp still deals with the lati twins? No offence but that's a completely terrible argument. Soul dew is absolutely and completely broken as hell, ESPECIALLY now that they are both incredible defoggers.
The standard defogging set (not scarf) would be so busted with the soul dew. Simple as.
Also, regarding one of your cons…
"Limits predictability since latios's main advantage was tricking players into thinking it's choiced with expert belt, AV, etc."
What?
The standard defogging set (not scarf) would be so busted with the soul dew. Simple as.
Also, regarding one of your cons…
"Limits predictability since latios's main advantage was tricking players into thinking it's choiced with expert belt, AV, etc."
What?
You're forgetting that Soul Dew raises special defense. You're right about Beedril but Greninja and Mega Sceptile lose 1v1 against Soul Dew Lati@s.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 203-242 (67.2 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 186-222 (61.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"Latio's main advantage was tricking players into thinking it's choiced with expert belt, AV etc."
Last time I checked, the most common sets were life orb, not expert belt, and wtf no not AV. AV stops it from using it's most important move defog. It's one of the best offensive defoggers out there. Expert belt is almost a complete waste, because dragon only hits one type super effectively, while psyshock hits two types super effectively. This argument is completely invalid because latio's best advantage is as the only good offensive defogger along with latias. And even then if they think you're choiced, nothing likes to switch in on specs draco meteor, or having their wall getting tricked a scarf.
Last time I checked, the most common sets were life orb, not expert belt, and wtf no not AV. AV stops it from using it's most important move defog. It's one of the best offensive defoggers out there. Expert belt is almost a complete waste, because dragon only hits one type super effectively, while psyshock hits two types super effectively. This argument is completely invalid because latio's best advantage is as the only good offensive defogger along with latias. And even then if they think you're choiced, nothing likes to switch in on specs draco meteor, or having their wall getting tricked a scarf.
I second not talking about soul dew, its broken to all hell and will be banned again. (if its not already)
Expert belt is actually not that rare to come by. It definitly isn't the best set nor the most common but it is indeed viable.
I never said soul dew SHOULD stay, I said it may be consitured staying once we see alot of pokemon working around it like we see everything working around greninja, thunderus, metagross, etc.
We haven't see it in practice yet only on paper, and that is what'll be the interesting part.. should latios start running new sets like sub calmmind, then perhaps it needs banned.. but if latios still struggles with it to some degree is may not be as big of a problem as before.
Is latios switching into any of that? Not in the slightest. Unless it has roost that is actually pretty bad to stay in on those.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 247-292 (81.7 -96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
^Having a defoger in red health (or killed) isn't exactly the best position either, soul dew would not change these circumstances.
Sceptile has also been abusing sub.
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Lati@s with Soul Dew will easily be of higher priority than Greninja lol. Greninja is ridiculous and all, but a free, no draw-back AV and Specs on the Lati@s? Come the fuck on
You said checks though and now you're changing the definition. Latios clearly has no business switching into an ice beam but with soul dew ninja is no longer a check. Sub sceptile isn't a check either.
Also no greninja is going to be running max attack. That's just really reaching for a reason to not insta ban soul dew.
S rank pokemon with specs and assault vest + no drawbacks = busted as shit. Hell, the soul dew sets are even better than previous gens (where it was banned) thanks to their new roles as the premier defoggers.
Anyway, yeah, enough about soul dew.
Also no greninja is going to be running max attack. That's just really reaching for a reason to not insta ban soul dew.
S rank pokemon with specs and assault vest + no drawbacks = busted as shit. Hell, the soul dew sets are even better than previous gens (where it was banned) thanks to their new roles as the premier defoggers.
Anyway, yeah, enough about soul dew.
The offensive set still outspeeds the increasingly crowded base 110 speed tier, and while there are more Pokemon that outspeed it, Starmie's speed is still very useful, though I will state that I have hardly used Starmie much this gen. I simply wanted to state that it still has something going for it offensively that might save it from dropping too far.
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