kinda agree w/ this, if i can find a reason to use it over spD slowbro. this thing still has a pursuit weakness and lacks physical bulk, and i think b+ is a little too high for it, but i can see it rising to B.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
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It's main niche is in its AV set, which is ridiculously bulky on the special side along with an ability that lets it be a fat dope that never dies. With some investment, it can avoid the 2HKO from Mega Charizard Y, phaze a +3 Tail Glow Manaphy a better offensive movepool compared to Slowbro, with the ability to pivot in almost any special attacker that doesn't have SE STAB on it, even some of the weaker ones that do! Yes, it definitely likes team support, especially things that can eat Toxics and Wisps, and something for Pursuit users, but its definitely a solid pivot for bulkier teams, being able to scout out almost any special hit, and switching out to get rid of the damage it has taken. Not only is it extremely specially bulky, it isn't passive and is also rather difficult to wear down (Chansey, I'm looking at you, despite Softboiled). I'd definitely support a rise to B, although I'm a bit iffy on B+.
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What DarkNostalgia pointed out is true, and even if I said my ranking nom should be B/B+, I literally only say two ranks because sometimes that does happen. I'm leaning to it in B, since it's special bulk is fat as fuck and it gets Regenerator which is extremely useful in the case of AV, the Pursuit weakness it pretty bad though, and it doesn't even have the capacity to tank it that well.
True. It can check it without rocks but that's it. I'll cross it out to avoid confusion.
id be better if you could compare slowking to other b mons rather than saying how cool it is or what hit can it survive. this isnt the place here we discuss the best sets, we dont need you tell us about it pls.
Going to address bludz’s Thundurus nom to S from a dozen pages back since it kinda slipped under the radar and is actually a pretty interesting nom.
Thundurus is a pretty borderline case for me, but I’m leaning towards keeping it in A+. One of its best traits and biggest selling points is how good it is against offense, particularly against the very popular core of MMetagross+Keldeo+Landorus, beating every member 1v1, and serving as a pretty good offensive check to Landorus : granted, it doesn’t switch into into the increasingly popular Rock Slide and takes a huge amount of damage from Sludge Wave especially from the RP set, but it’s still a decent check.
The problem I have with Thundurus is the fact that it struggles a bit against balanced teams. Despite its great movepool, it’s still going to be stopped by multiple things no matter what it runs. As a result, lot of teams have a good number of natural checks to it, and though you can lure one with a certain move, you still have to deal with the other. When comparing its versatility to that of MAltaria, I think Altaria has the upper hand since there are a shocking number of balanced teams which just have no answer at all to the Mixed set (becuase there are what, 2 of these in existence?). Whereas for Thundurus, there’s a much higher chance that, no matter what it runs, the opposing team is going to be able to check it.
For instance, a good number of teams carry both Stone Edge Hippowdon and Celebi, and you can only break that with Nasty Plot combined with Grass Knot. If you don’t have Focus Blast, Ferro, Heatran, and Excadrill are a problem. Without HP Ice, Gliscor, Lando-T and offensive Altaria beat you, without HP Flying or Psychic MVenu beats you, etc. NP sets are admittedly pretty threatening to balanced teams, being able to break past stuff like Jirachi and non-Stone Edge Hippowdon to a lesser extent, but Scarf TTar’s popularity right now is pretty problematic since facing it can make setting up NP a bad idea since Thundurus gets forced out immediately afterwards.
I get that it suits its team’s needs in terms of what it runs but it’s not at the level of Landorus where it just has so few defensive answers that it can completely fuck over most of its checks without sacrificing anything because of how ridiculously good its main STAB is and how it forces the opponent into a corner every time it gets a free switch. Essentially, I think that Thundurus suffers more from actual, legitimate 4MSS than Landorus or Metagross.
Another problem for it is the increasing popularity of Mega Altaria, MLatias and Dragalge which are all pretty annoying for it. Overall, its matchup against balanced teams is weaker than any S rank bar maybe Keldeo, and that’s the biggest factor preventing it from going S rank. However, since the metagame seems to be shifting away from fat balance and more toward bulky offense, which Thundurus fares better against, I don’t think it going S rank is out of the question depending on how the metagame evolves from here on out. It’s still a hugely threatening offensive presence, a really good lure for a lot of things, and fits extremely easily on offensive teams just becuase of its ability to act as a safety net against a bunch of threats. Right now I don’t think it’s quite S rank material though.
Totally agree with Serperior for B+. The fact that most of its checks bar the uncommon Amoonguss get worn down pretty easily by repeated SR damage makes it quite threatening on a lot of balanced builds that rely on hazards. It’s also an extremely easy and mindless Pokemon to use and once it gets going, it’s very difficult to stop, even with dedicated spacial walls like Jirachi and Chansey.
I’m more-or-less neutral on Conk, but one thing that’s been ignored is the Sheer Force Life Orb set. It messes up a lot of Conk’s defensive checks like Clefable, Slowbro (2HKOed by TPunch), Skamrory (also 2HKOed by TPunch, and SF LO Conk should run enough speed for it) so Conk isn’t necessarily useless vs balance and stall like a lot of people say it is, though it’s still going to be walled by Sableye revenged by flyers no matter what it does (even if TPunch destroys Flying types on the switchin). But the AV set alone really isn’t B worthy imo, it’s a bit of problem for offense but even HO can usually deal with it it without too much trouble, and bulkier teams just don’t care much about it.
Personally I don’t see Lucario as being better than Infernape to the point of warranting a higher rank, let alone two. Lucario has ESpeed and a nice Steel typing, but Infernape actually has more of defensive niches than Lucario, but it has significantly higher speed, Lucario missing out on the crucial base 100 speed tier, more coverage options, a better secondary STAB (Iron Tail sucks) and far more versatility, and even the ability to run a defensive set thanks to Slack off. Either Infernape should move up or Lucario should move down imo.
My big problem with Suicune is the amount of free turns it can potentially give to the opponent because of how unreliable ResTalk is. And although in theory it has ridiculous bulk, when you realise that it only needs to be 3HKOed to be defeated as opposed to 2HKOed like most walls, it becomes a lot less impressive. Most teams are equipped with somthing to handle bulky waters given how omnipresent they are at the moment and how important they are to deal with, and Suicune kinda falls to most of these, particularly NP Celebi and TG EBall Manaphy. Also, it doesn’t even beat a lot of stuff it’s supposed to. For example, at +1, it can’t 2HKO standard XZad who, in return, 2HKO it at +2, so it’s going to lose to it 1v1. It has the same problem as Alomomola where it needs a Scald burn beat stuff like BD/Band Azumarill, Bisharp or Scizor (to a lesser extent, Scizor needs to be extremely lucky to actually win). Except Mola can afford to carry Toxic more easily and supports its teammates much better. It’s just not on par with the rest of B+ in terms of consistency, it relies too much on Scald burns and Sleep Talk rolls to do its job as well as it wants.
Thundurus is a pretty borderline case for me, but I’m leaning towards keeping it in A+. One of its best traits and biggest selling points is how good it is against offense, particularly against the very popular core of MMetagross+Keldeo+Landorus, beating every member 1v1, and serving as a pretty good offensive check to Landorus : granted, it doesn’t switch into into the increasingly popular Rock Slide and takes a huge amount of damage from Sludge Wave especially from the RP set, but it’s still a decent check.
The problem I have with Thundurus is the fact that it struggles a bit against balanced teams. Despite its great movepool, it’s still going to be stopped by multiple things no matter what it runs. As a result, lot of teams have a good number of natural checks to it, and though you can lure one with a certain move, you still have to deal with the other. When comparing its versatility to that of MAltaria, I think Altaria has the upper hand since there are a shocking number of balanced teams which just have no answer at all to the Mixed set (becuase there are what, 2 of these in existence?). Whereas for Thundurus, there’s a much higher chance that, no matter what it runs, the opposing team is going to be able to check it.
For instance, a good number of teams carry both Stone Edge Hippowdon and Celebi, and you can only break that with Nasty Plot combined with Grass Knot. If you don’t have Focus Blast, Ferro, Heatran, and Excadrill are a problem. Without HP Ice, Gliscor, Lando-T and offensive Altaria beat you, without HP Flying or Psychic MVenu beats you, etc. NP sets are admittedly pretty threatening to balanced teams, being able to break past stuff like Jirachi and non-Stone Edge Hippowdon to a lesser extent, but Scarf TTar’s popularity right now is pretty problematic since facing it can make setting up NP a bad idea since Thundurus gets forced out immediately afterwards.
I get that it suits its team’s needs in terms of what it runs but it’s not at the level of Landorus where it just has so few defensive answers that it can completely fuck over most of its checks without sacrificing anything because of how ridiculously good its main STAB is and how it forces the opponent into a corner every time it gets a free switch. Essentially, I think that Thundurus suffers more from actual, legitimate 4MSS than Landorus or Metagross.
Another problem for it is the increasing popularity of Mega Altaria, MLatias and Dragalge which are all pretty annoying for it. Overall, its matchup against balanced teams is weaker than any S rank bar maybe Keldeo, and that’s the biggest factor preventing it from going S rank. However, since the metagame seems to be shifting away from fat balance and more toward bulky offense, which Thundurus fares better against, I don’t think it going S rank is out of the question depending on how the metagame evolves from here on out. It’s still a hugely threatening offensive presence, a really good lure for a lot of things, and fits extremely easily on offensive teams just becuase of its ability to act as a safety net against a bunch of threats. Right now I don’t think it’s quite S rank material though.
Totally agree with Serperior for B+. The fact that most of its checks bar the uncommon Amoonguss get worn down pretty easily by repeated SR damage makes it quite threatening on a lot of balanced builds that rely on hazards. It’s also an extremely easy and mindless Pokemon to use and once it gets going, it’s very difficult to stop, even with dedicated spacial walls like Jirachi and Chansey.
I’m more-or-less neutral on Conk, but one thing that’s been ignored is the Sheer Force Life Orb set. It messes up a lot of Conk’s defensive checks like Clefable, Slowbro (2HKOed by TPunch), Skamrory (also 2HKOed by TPunch, and SF LO Conk should run enough speed for it) so Conk isn’t necessarily useless vs balance and stall like a lot of people say it is, though it’s still going to be walled by Sableye revenged by flyers no matter what it does (even if TPunch destroys Flying types on the switchin). But the AV set alone really isn’t B worthy imo, it’s a bit of problem for offense but even HO can usually deal with it it without too much trouble, and bulkier teams just don’t care much about it.
Personally I don’t see Lucario as being better than Infernape to the point of warranting a higher rank, let alone two. Lucario has ESpeed and a nice Steel typing, but Infernape actually has more of defensive niches than Lucario, but it has significantly higher speed, Lucario missing out on the crucial base 100 speed tier, more coverage options, a better secondary STAB (Iron Tail sucks) and far more versatility, and even the ability to run a defensive set thanks to Slack off. Either Infernape should move up or Lucario should move down imo.
My big problem with Suicune is the amount of free turns it can potentially give to the opponent because of how unreliable ResTalk is. And although in theory it has ridiculous bulk, when you realise that it only needs to be 3HKOed to be defeated as opposed to 2HKOed like most walls, it becomes a lot less impressive. Most teams are equipped with somthing to handle bulky waters given how omnipresent they are at the moment and how important they are to deal with, and Suicune kinda falls to most of these, particularly NP Celebi and TG EBall Manaphy. Also, it doesn’t even beat a lot of stuff it’s supposed to. For example, at +1, it can’t 2HKO standard XZad who, in return, 2HKO it at +2, so it’s going to lose to it 1v1. It has the same problem as Alomomola where it needs a Scald burn beat stuff like BD/Band Azumarill, Bisharp or Scizor (to a lesser extent, Scizor needs to be extremely lucky to actually win). Except Mola can afford to carry Toxic more easily and supports its teammates much better. It’s just not on par with the rest of B+ in terms of consistency, it relies too much on Scald burns and Sleep Talk rolls to do its job as well as it wants.
It's actually preferable to show a wall of calcs as opposed to the alternative, and "what it can survive" is pretty integral to the functioning of a defensive mon, especially one whose niche is checking most of the S and A+ ranks. It's not like someone nominated lando-I to S+ without any real justification or anything.
That being said, I can see Slowking moving to B but not much higher as it fits in with some of the defensive Mons/pivots like Amoongus, Cresselia, Scizor better than slightly more niche things in B- like Alomomola, Mandi, and Toxicroak. King fits different team archetypes much better than Mola or Mandi, and the threats it checks are more important than the things threatened by its fellow B-/bulky Regenerator mon, Tangrowth.
I'm on board with what you're saying, but I wouldn't go so far as to compare Suicune to Alo as Alo has no offensive presence whatsoever and trades off whatever greater support it can give by being more passive than Chansey.
It's true that I should have compared Slowking to other B 'mons, how much a defensive 'mon can take as well as its positive traits isn't exactly something to be dismissed. Noted though, I'll consider that in the future.
Okay so I did gloss over Conk's SF LO set a bit though I did mention it. The issue with it in my opinion is its speed. Plenty of powerful wallbreakers suffer from subpar speed stats and need a free switch in to do anything, but Conkeldurr's speed is so low that it actually has to run a fair amount just to speed creep Clefable and this comes at expense of bulk which was one of its bigger selling points to begin with. Add this onto the fact that it still has problems choosing its moves, unlike mons like Tyrantrum, Emboar and Mega Garchomp who have all they need in 4 moveslots, and it just doesn't seem like B material to me. The best comparisons here are the other wallbreakers in B - Hydreigon also suffers a bit from choosing its moves and isn't quite as powerful but has a better offensive typing, movepool and most importantly a very usable speed stat. Crawdaunt is also slow but has all it needs at its disposal in STAB moves (one of which is Knock Off) as well as a boosting move if you can ever manage to use it, and on top of that doesn't have problems fitting its priority move onto the set.
I still think it should go down to B-. It can still be effective in the current metagame, and I do think the SF LO set > the AV set right now, but it still has enough drawbacks to move down IMO.
I still think it should go down to B-. It can still be effective in the current metagame, and I do think the SF LO set > the AV set right now, but it still has enough drawbacks to move down IMO.
I think with Conk the problem comes from how matchup reliant it is as a wallbreaker. Its movepool is OK, but it always suffers from either being walled by something it needs to break or sacrificing a priority move (i.e. its way to outpace faster Pokémon) to hit all of its targets with its coverage options. If there were no Fairy-types to worry about, Conk would be significantly better at its role, but the fact that it has to choose between Mach Punch, Knock Off and Poison Jab means that it needs significant support to handle a lot of the things it needs to break. TBH, there are better choices for a team the majority of the time, and I fully support it moving down to B-. Additionally, like bludz said, it needs to sacrifice a significant amount of bulk to outpace walls such as Clefable and Heatran, to the point of one of its main selling points simply losing prominence. Unless a metagame shift which renders pokemon like Clefable obsolete (not going to happen), Conk's effectiveness is severely capped, with it being just barely B- material in the current state of the meta. If there are any metagame shifts that favor Fairy- or Flying-types, no matter how minor, Conk will tip over the edge into mediocrity, and it is something which needs to be kept in mind when discussing him as a Pokémon. It also makes one question why it hasn't dropped under the 3.41% usage bracket that defines OU while Pokémon which are actually good, such as Volcarona, Hippowdon, Alakazam, Pinsir and M-Aero, are stuck in BL and below.
As for Slowking, I fully support a rise to B, although I wouldn't be too put off by a rise to B+. Much like SpD Excadrill in OU and Swanna in PU, I think that the best way to describe Slowking is to say that it is anti meta. It is a semi-consistent check to a large portion of S and A+, and its lack of passiveness means that IMO it surpasses pokemon like Chansey as a special tank on a large number of teams due to its more offensive and anti-meta nature. I don't really need to say anything else here as tbh everything I could say has been said already. Move this thing up!
IMO Tyrantrum seems like it is too reliable a wallbreaker to be a C rank Pokémon. The fact that it hits so goddamn hard with a STAB recoilless Head Smash means that very few, if any, non-Steel-type Pokémon can switch in on it. IDK why, but I like comparing it to Dragalge in respect to its sheer power that is held back a little a by its somewhat low speed. TBH I'm liking using Life Orb over Choice Band on it in order to lure and KO Ferrothorn with Fire Fang (Fire Fang>Superpower in OU to hit the omnipresent Scizor and Ferro (the former on switch-in only) are the main targets), but that's just me. It doesn't miss a Head Smash 2HKO on Skarm so I don't miss the power drop that much. Seriously even with Life Orb this thing can OHKO so many Pokemon after SR that it is simply insane. It doesn't even need all four moveslots to rip holes in the tier, making it very flexible in moves that it can run - Head Smash+Fire Fang+Outrage/Dragon Claw + filler (typically Ice Fang and SR are the best options IMO) is all this monster needs. IMO move it up.
As for Slowking, I fully support a rise to B, although I wouldn't be too put off by a rise to B+. Much like SpD Excadrill in OU and Swanna in PU, I think that the best way to describe Slowking is to say that it is anti meta. It is a semi-consistent check to a large portion of S and A+, and its lack of passiveness means that IMO it surpasses pokemon like Chansey as a special tank on a large number of teams due to its more offensive and anti-meta nature. I don't really need to say anything else here as tbh everything I could say has been said already. Move this thing up!
IMO Tyrantrum seems like it is too reliable a wallbreaker to be a C rank Pokémon. The fact that it hits so goddamn hard with a STAB recoilless Head Smash means that very few, if any, non-Steel-type Pokémon can switch in on it. IDK why, but I like comparing it to Dragalge in respect to its sheer power that is held back a little a by its somewhat low speed. TBH I'm liking using Life Orb over Choice Band on it in order to lure and KO Ferrothorn with Fire Fang (Fire Fang>Superpower in OU to hit the omnipresent Scizor and Ferro (the former on switch-in only) are the main targets), but that's just me. It doesn't miss a Head Smash 2HKO on Skarm so I don't miss the power drop that much. Seriously even with Life Orb this thing can OHKO so many Pokemon after SR that it is simply insane. It doesn't even need all four moveslots to rip holes in the tier, making it very flexible in moves that it can run - Head Smash+Fire Fang+Outrage/Dragon Claw + filler (typically Ice Fang and SR are the best options IMO) is all this monster needs. IMO move it up.
Nominating Mega Ampharos to C+
After recently using Mega Ampharos, I feel it should move up to C+. Ampharos is definitely very underrated and it actually is pretty decent. I played around with two sets on two different teams, RestTalk Ampharos on a defensive team, and Agility Ampharos + NastyPass. RestTalk Ampharos is actually a pretty cool defensive mon. It's one of the best counters to Zard Y that isn't total pursuit bait, and counters pokemon such as Talonflame and Thundy handily. Not being pursuit weak is actually pretty huge, as most of zard y's other counters such as latias and chansey are vulnerable to pursuit. I used it in a core consisting of Skarmory + Clefable + Mega Ampharos, which created a dragon / steel / fairy core, as well as handling a decent portion of the meta, such as talonflame, scizor, thundurus, zard y, mega metagross, etc. I also experimented with an agility set. Paired up with nasty plot mew or celebi, mega ampharos is very scary. It has a sky high special attack stat, and unlike other set up sweepers, it has a way of getting past unaware pokemon such as quagsire and clefable thanks to its ability, mold breaker. After one agility, mega ampharos outspeeds everything up to tornadus-t, and after two agilities, it outspeeds the entire boosted meta (I think).
I get that ampharos has a pretty large opportunity cost as it uses up the mega stone, but it's definitely better than most of C (see latios mega, shuckle, mega blastoise), and is on par with some C+ mons such as mega pidgeot and staraptor. Mega Ampharos is pretty unique in the fact that it's one of the best answers to zard y that doesn't get completely screwed over by pursuit and agility sets are decent cleaners especially after a nasty plot boost, as moldbreaker ignores unaware.
Mega Ampharos definitely deserves more than C and C+ seems fine for it, imo.
*prepares for shit storm*
Alright I'm going to have to disagree with a few things you said here. Let's address your first point about Fairies and Clefable.
I'd like to bring your attention to this calc first: 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even Bold max/max Clefs take up to 42%, and if they're Unaware and being affected by Rocks as a result that's already enough to pressure the Moonlight, giving the Conk user a free turn to switch out. Of course, this is also assuming Clef is absolutely healthy and can even take the second hit.
SF Conk isn't like AV Conk where it can't do damage to anything with respectable bulk without a Super Effective hit.
The center of your argument for moving Conk down seems to be the prevalence of Fairy types, yet it still does a hefty chunk to Clefable without even resorting to Poison Jab. But even if you ignore or dispute that, if you notice in my previous post on page 113 I list off a few of SF Conkeldurr's most ideal teammates.
Talonflame, Excadrill, Zard-X, Metagross. They all either murder or set up on the typical defensive Fairy type.
You say that Fairy types limit how Conkeldurr performs at its job but that's really not even true considering Conkeldurr's job is to mow down walls for a bunch of teammates that all beat Clefable. Idek why you seem convinced that Pokemon X's existence obstructs Pokemon Y's ability to lure and break A,B and C, that logic is fallacious to begin with without even going into the rest of what I said.
Your second point is about Conkeldurr's apparent 4MSS. Eh tbh SF Conk doesn't have it, at least, not any more than Pokemon like Metagross and Landorus. I put slashes in my set for the sake of flexibility but the best moveset for SF Conk in my opinion is always Superpower / Mach / Thunder / Ice. SF doesn't use Knock Off so idk why you even mentioned that, and Poison Jab is mostly not needed as I explained above. You can use Drain Punch over Superpower if you prefer the longevity but that's about it.
Then you say that SF Conkeldurr sacrifices too much bulk. Even with absolutely no investment in bulk it still has natural bulk comparable to Garchomp, which is pretty good, and it's not like there aren't alternative spreads that can afford to invest in more bulk. My spread outspeeds Defensive Skarmory but if you're pairing it with Zard X and Skarm isn't a huge concern, you can run just enough for Clef and Base 60, which is only 128 Spe EVs, which leaves you at a rather beefy 383 HP if you invest the rest in HP. Conk never EVs for Heatran idk where you're getting that. I'm not denying that Conk loses significant special bulk without AV but I think you're overselling the significance of a few lost HP EVs that the AV set never even ran to begin with.
And lastly I won't even address the last section of your comment because it doesn't really hold any relevance in a viability thread. Despite how much it seems I'm praising Conkeldurr, we've already established that Volcarona and Alakazam are more viable than Conkeldurr right now, and I never disagreed with that or argued otherwise. I simply don't think we should be knocking Conkeldurr down even further when it does have redeeming (and underrated) qualities that keep it on par with the likes of Crawdaunt, Hydreigon, and Amoonguss in B.
4MSS is a bad argument and people should really stop using it to legitimize a point honestly when it's always a team specific asset. I'm pretty indifferent with some of the previous noms but the ones that keep bringing up 4MSS are just silly at this point lol. Just thought I would point this out before someone flips their lid why something moves up, down, or stays in ranking and just assumes this becomes a real point that holds some sort of strong weight. I'm more than likely going to not take points like these seriously if that's the foundation of your argument, just pointing this out from my end.
To add onto what AM said, 4MSS is pretty much not even a thing. A Pokemon with apparent 4MSS does not even need all its moves to function; rather, it has versatility and can use its moveslots to cater to the team's specific needs. You cannot expect a Pokemon to cover all of its threats in just 4 moveslots, can you? There's a reason why you have 5 other teammates.
I was under the impression that 4MSS referred to a Pokemon that needed more moveslots than it has in order to effectively fulfil its niche, like Lucario?
People use the term 4MSS to refer to anything that wishes it had at least one extra move slot in order to fulfill its role to the absolute best of its ability. This can manifest itself in positive or negative ways. For example, for Greninja, its 4MSS was a plus, since it meant that it could pick four moves from a total of 6 or 7 very useful moves to run depending on what the team needs most, making it fairly unpredictable. It might have liked to run more than 4, but it didn't actually need to. Then you get to things that don't necessarily need to have all of their viable moves for a set in order to be successful, but would really benefit from it. Since I've been pushing Custap Skarm a bit lately, I'll use it as an example. It would love to be able to run Brave Bird, Iron Head, SR, Spikes, and Taunt all on the same moveset, but it doesn't lose too much viability with only being able to pick 4 of those. It's just a question of what you need the least.
But then you get down to stuff that really need more than four moves to function effectively. This is still classified as 4MSS. 4MSS is really kind of a catch-all term, which does make it a bit odd when you see it being used for both positive and negative connotations. Which is precisely why it shouldn't be used as a serious argument about the viability of a Pokemon. It's a bit too easy to redefine 4MSS to mean whatever you want it to at that point in time. Instead of focusing on the generic 4MSS term in arguments, people should base their arguments about the sheer versatility of the positive 4MSS mons, the limitations of the middle ground mons, or the team support required by the negative 4MSS mons in order to function effectively on a team. I don't want to sound like I'm minimodding here, but be specific with your arguments, people. Don't just mention that a mon has a certain problem; describe why it has that problem, and what that means for any team that tries to use that mon.
It's a late game cleaner that more than likely is cleaning up with SD + Extremespeed, aka two moves, the niche that is relevant. Its job is based on teams being already worn down which isn't even necessary to state how it can't beat stuff without having "insert random move here". Why would you be trying to stare down a fat ground type at full HP with Lucario like when stating it needs Ice Punch to beat Landorus-T ?_? Lucario is a supplement to a team in order to provide speed control that surpasses the +1 threshold that you see with Bisharp, Talonflame, Conkeldurr, Azumarill, etc. It's one of the main reasons it's even used in the first place while Close Combat is just STAB that hits like a truck and filler is whatever your team needs to break a check or two to something that troubles a team-mate more so than Lucario itself. This is why I have a problem with the 4MSS argument because everyone under the impression just assumes that the moveslot of said Pokemon is a black and white concept when they fail to see the all the other factors taken into account when building and will use this as a case to nitpick irrelevant aspects that aren't even true.
There's a difference if you're trying to explain its lack of set up opportunities which is a more legitimate concern than some fabricated concept that having multiple options to suit team needs is some sort burden to its viability and as a team option.
I sort of got ninja'd here but now you get my idea when I read these statements on the thread and people try to justify this point and sort of miss all the points I'm actually looking for.
There's a difference if you're trying to explain its lack of set up opportunities which is a more legitimate concern than some fabricated concept that having multiple options to suit team needs is some sort burden to its viability and as a team option.
I sort of got ninja'd here but now you get my idea when I read these statements on the thread and people try to justify this point and sort of miss all the points I'm actually looking for.
Nominating mega scizor for A (from A+)
Taking up a mega slot is a huge deal rn, and As a steel type scizor had lots of threatening competition (metagross,ferrothorn and metagross mainly)
Alot of pokemon like to get coverage for Ferro like altaria or hp fire lati, and for such a crucial slot like a mega slot, i feel like m scizor has a hard time doing its job, as it could end up dieing on the switch, but it definitely does its job as a late game cleaner, but i fell like that's just not enough for Warrent an A+ MEGA slot.
Taking up a mega slot is a huge deal rn, and As a steel type scizor had lots of threatening competition (metagross,ferrothorn and metagross mainly)
Alot of pokemon like to get coverage for Ferro like altaria or hp fire lati, and for such a crucial slot like a mega slot, i feel like m scizor has a hard time doing its job, as it could end up dieing on the switch, but it definitely does its job as a late game cleaner, but i fell like that's just not enough for Warrent an A+ MEGA slot.
I definitely disagree with this. M-Scizor is one of the best bulky offense mons at the moment. I'm not sure what you mean specifically when you say M-Scizor has a "hard time doing its job", because its has so many sets to choose from. M-Scizor is an incredibly versatile pokemon - bulky set up sweeper, baton passer, u-turn/defog, roost 3 attacks - just a ton of different things to choose from, and it can perform all of these roles rather effectively. Yeah that fire weakness sucks, but it is its only weakness, albeit a 4x one. With fairies everywhere, M-Scizor makes one of the best blanket fairy checks because it can threaten/revenge kill most if not all of them with technician boosted priority bullet punch. Also, the M-Metagross and Ferrothorn comparisons are kinda off. M-Metagross is mostly an all out attacker (bar the rare agility) and ferrothorn is a utility/support mon.
You're missing the point. Mega Scizor is A+ at the moment precisely BECAUSE MegaGross is so popular. Mega Scizor is one of the few things that can really stand up to MegaGross, thanks to great defenses that allow it to take a few hits, and a great attack score that makes it easy for something like Knock Off, or even Superpower to do major damage to MegaGross, especially if it can get an SD under its belt. Also, you mention Mega Scizor as being a late-game cleaner, but that's only one of its sets. The Bulky SD set is quite capable of coming in at various points throughout the game to sponge weaker or resisted hits and take out targets of opportunity, or wear down whatever your opponent switches in to counter it (with the exception of Magnezone, but you'd have to be an idiot to send Scizor out with that thing still around, unless you're gonna double switch immediately). It can't really set up until all of its checks and counters are gone, but that's what the other five team members are for. If Mega Metagross were to get banned, or if MegaGross' usage suddenly fell off for some inconceivable reason, Mega Scizor would probably go back down to A. But right now, Mega Scizor is one of the best Megas for use on Bulky Offense teams, and it definitely belongs in A+ at this point in time.
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I don't know if anyone has nominated them yet, but suggesting Zapdos moving from B- to B/B+ and Tornadus-T from A to A+.
Atm, SpDef Zapdos is one of the few Pokemon that can switch in onto Landorus-I, Tornadus-T or offensive Scizor-Mega with ease and threatening them with HP ice/Heat wave. Also, it performs an awesome role against SpikeStack teams which tend to abuse a lot mons like Garchomp, Ferrorhorn, Starmie or Skarmory to name a few. It has also the speed necessary to outpace threats like Bisharp and it can spread some paras with Discharge, which is always good to lure incoming threats (mainly Heatran) or offensive builds.
Moving onto Tornadus-T, its promotion is almost self-explanatory, and I don't get why this isn't A+ yet. Its blazing speed (pressuring slower and abused mons such as the Lati twins, Keldeo, Starmie, Gengar and so on), access to a vast movepool (Hurricane, Heat Wave, Focus Blast, U-Turn, Superpower, Knock Off, IcE Wind...), the ability of switching into a plethora of special threats, the momentum it gives with U-Turn (pretty much a 0 downsides move) and the possibility of running a mixed attacking set makes it deserve a place in the A+ club. It fits well in either offensive or balanced structured teams, and it doesn't take a mega slot, so its opportunity cost is not very high at all.
So what do you guys think? :]
Atm, SpDef Zapdos is one of the few Pokemon that can switch in onto Landorus-I, Tornadus-T or offensive Scizor-Mega with ease and threatening them with HP ice/Heat wave. Also, it performs an awesome role against SpikeStack teams which tend to abuse a lot mons like Garchomp, Ferrorhorn, Starmie or Skarmory to name a few. It has also the speed necessary to outpace threats like Bisharp and it can spread some paras with Discharge, which is always good to lure incoming threats (mainly Heatran) or offensive builds.
Moving onto Tornadus-T, its promotion is almost self-explanatory, and I don't get why this isn't A+ yet. Its blazing speed (pressuring slower and abused mons such as the Lati twins, Keldeo, Starmie, Gengar and so on), access to a vast movepool (Hurricane, Heat Wave, Focus Blast, U-Turn, Superpower, Knock Off, IcE Wind...), the ability of switching into a plethora of special threats, the momentum it gives with U-Turn (pretty much a 0 downsides move) and the possibility of running a mixed attacking set makes it deserve a place in the A+ club. It fits well in either offensive or balanced structured teams, and it doesn't take a mega slot, so its opportunity cost is not very high at all.
So what do you guys think? :]
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I think zapdos needs a lot more love, so yeah move the big bird up, but torn-t i disagree with.
Honestly id be fine with everything torn-t has but its BIGGEST problem is its stabs.
You either have be piss weak with air slash or miss more than you hit with hurricane.
basically, its inconsistency and unreliability at doing its role makes me upset :< It has a gigantic movepool, fits great onto all kinds of teams, is fairly independent, has two great sets, fantastic stats, and fantastic ability, and would otherwise be A+ if not for its stabs. (while hurricane does always hit on rain teams, that's not enough to move it up)
Its like being forced to run either iron tail or metal claw on lucario/aggron, no matter how good their coverage, stats, and abilities are it really takes away from the overall performance.
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