It's not totally outclassed actually. It's speed tier and Special Attack allow it to DD without fear of Landorus-T, due to being able to outspeed at +1 and Ice Beam. That's something that Char-X wishes it could do. Gyara also has to pick between boosting or smacking it with -1 Waterfall. It's a very small, C- rank niche, but a niche nonetheless.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Out of pure curiosity, what does Cacturne do that Frosslass or Scolipede don't do better? Heck with it's speed why isn't it outclassed by even lead Chesnaught/Quiladin or even (dare I say) Forretress. It lacks the speed to use destiny bond correctly, loses to common leads like Breloom, Mamoswine, Landorus, anything with u-turn, and it lacks the bulk to take even resisted hits. I just can't seem to see where it fits in even against the limited and pretty mediocre group of spikes setters that we currently have. Sucker punch is the only thing I can think of, but it still loses to just about any other priority because of Cacturne's atrocious speed tier.
Edit: heck, Roserade, diggersby, and Klefki too.
Edit: heck, Roserade, diggersby, and Klefki too.
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Also missing the point. I never said it was on that level, I'm not arguing why it should be in the As or even the Bs. DD Latios can to acceptable effect handle T-Tar who is one of the better checks to any other form of Latios, that is a very very minute pro in its favour but a pro nonetheless. Regardless, Mega Latios even outside of that does not fit the bill for the kind of mons you slap down to D, what makes it an equal DD user to Salamence? It has better speed, offences and bulk, workable movepool, can decently handle a threat that its regular form would have almost no chance against unless you catch it on the switch with HP Fighting, Mence has Intimidate to help it set up which is the best pro I can find. Don't pin Mega Latios against A rankers as an argument when we're discussing whether or not it should be in D, of course it's outclassed there, no one is saying otherwise, but I'll say it again if people misconstrue me it's not as useless as D rankers.
Mega Latios is a really weird Pokemon. It falls into the same category as Mega Garchomp - pretty good, but just kinda overshadowed by other stuff. But Mega Latios suffers from this a bit more - because while it's by no means a bad Pokemon and is mostly a better Latios aside from lack of item-holding, it's that crucial mega slot that holds it back. It's just very tricky to place this because it can't be in A since regular Latios can use DD (very, very rarely) without wasting the slot; while B implies it's good but has flaws (it does, but its flaw is just that it's a mega), and C implies that it's sorta not that great, but it is good on its own, when not compared to any other mon.
Mega Latios is certainly a weird 'mon because as I've said before, it's viability is judged entirely on opportunity cost. If it were like a Primal Devolution, instant A+ rank or even S. But because it means you can't use another Mega - or Scarf Latios - it's hard to judge exactly where it goes. C- honestly does seem like a solid rank for it; I just can't see it on the level of the other stuff in C.
On that note, Mega Medicham should probably drop a rank or two as well, not least because Mega Gallade dropped a rank or two for not being able to handle stuff like Mega Sableye and other stuff on stall which Mega Medicham doesn't have a way of getting round either. C- for Megacham imo.
On that note, Mega Medicham should probably drop a rank or two as well, not least because Mega Gallade dropped a rank or two for not being able to handle stuff like Mega Sableye and other stuff on stall which Mega Medicham doesn't have a way of getting round either. C- for Megacham imo.
I think you are exaggerating the opportunity cost. Yeah, it has a opportunity cost. But i think this argument push Latios-Mega to C+. I will compare 2 Megas :
The best set of Latios-Mega imo :
Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Well, this set look like to a role for another pokemon. This :
Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 24 HP / 248 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Roost
To conclude, Latios-Mega should move down to C, (because his main set drop to C) but not totally because of the opportunity cost, also because it is a lot outclassed by Altaria-Mega.
The best set of Latios-Mega imo :
Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Well, this set look like to a role for another pokemon. This :
Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 24 HP / 248 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Roost
To conclude, Latios-Mega should move down to C, (because his main set drop to C) but not totally because of the opportunity cost, also because it is a lot outclassed by Altaria-Mega.
So... can you explain what exactly this Mega Latios set accomplishes that it's counterparts in Base Latios and Mega Altaria do not? Why I'd ever want to use it? Why you're saying it's better than the Mega Altaria counterpart despite that having the far better typing and longevity?I think you are exaggerating the opportunity cost. Yeah, it has a opportunity cost. But i think this argument push Latios-Mega to C+. I will compare 2 Megas :
The best set of Latios-Mega imo :
Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Well, this set look like to a role for another pokemon. This :
Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 24 HP / 248 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Roost
To conclude, Latios-Mega should move down to C, (because his main set drop to C) but not totally because of the opportunity cost, also because it is a lot outclassed by Altaria-Mega.
It's all very well to post two random sets but you've got to say something about them.
These sets have common points. The main advantage of Latios-Mega over Latios LO is that it is able to almost OHKO Heatran and lure Ferrothorn. That's exactly the same with Altaria-Mega (well, it is not to lure with Altaria-Mega, because everyone knows this set). I think that was the better set of Latios-Mega in the past, but after that people started to use Altaria-Mega Mixed set. This is why it should drop to C, because it has other viable set. (Maybe C-, but i'm more for C).
True as that may be, I don't think Lures are something to consider when ranking and I'm rather uncomfortable with it. That said I may be extremely wrong and I'd like to ask AM and/or TRC if it's alright, but OO material iirc is generally not considered when ranking even if it can work -- hence why Scarf Gardevoir wasn't ranked to D.
Regardless, if even you yourself are admitting it's outclassed by another Mega, then that just seems all the more reason to completely ignore the set.
The whole point of myself wanting m-latios to drop is based on "opportunity cost", what a funny term, not some sort of idea that I'm basing on a particular set. Also double lure latios isn't unheard of and isnt a new thing at all in regards to latios. Just want to point this out before people get riled up over m-latios sets or all things.
No real opinion on Mega Latios's placement, but if there's any set that can justify its usage it's offensive Calm Mind, it has an easier time setting up than LO Latios due to its greater bulk and doesn't get worn down by Life Orb damage. You do lose out on a little bit of power compared to LO but at +1 you're still able to 2HKO Chansey after SR and 2HKO Clefable almost all of the time. So imo if you want to judge Mega-Latios's viability then judge it by that set, it is its most effective set even though it doesn't have too much to set it apart from regular Latios.
Not saying I agree or disagree with this; but out of curiosity, what advantage does this hold over the CM set for Mega Latias, who arguably has a much easier time setting up and staying alive? I get immediate power; but surely Mega Latias would make up for that by being able to set up more Calm Minds easier than Latios?
Why not rank Latios and Mega Latios as the same thing? They're barely different. Something like:
Latios and Mega Latios
or
Latios
Latios and Mega Latiosor
Because they're not the same thing. Latios runs an item which gives it an edge over Mega in some cases like Scarfed or LO, Mega takes up a Mega slot to do the same thing as other mons only arguably less effectively. They're pretty different conceptually even if their roles can be the same I guess.
I hope you're kidding? Mega Latios is eons worse than Latios. Not only does it use up your Mega Slot, but Life Orb Latios hits just as hard. Mega Latios has plenty of opportunity cost as well. They are completely different Pokémon and don't deserve even close to the same ranking.Why not rank Latios and Mega Latios as the same thing? They're barely different. Something like:
or
Latios
I'm fine with Mega Latios on where it is, since it's fun to use and its mixed set is better than regular Latios, but I know I'm against the majority here.
I haven't posted in ou in months so please don't kill me if this is a bad nom even though I think it's reasonable.
Thundurus-T C -> C+:
First off, while the opportunity cost might be pretty big, but unlike mega Latios, Thundy-T is actually a really solid pokemon. I think that we all know what this guy does best but if you do not know, Thundy-t is a really good double dancer aka it can annihilate nearly every team archetype at will (can also run only agility or nasty plot but I always found double dance to be the best thing and nasty plot seems pretty outclassed by regular thundy). Another flaw that is bound to be brought up, is that Thundurus-t is really pressed for moveslots, and I completely agree with this. Unfortunately is probably going to expect HP Ice which is usually the best move, but it can run HP flying, Focus Blast, or Grass Knot, it all depends on what you want to beat. The final thought I can think of is that Thundurus is pretty easily countered, and I will concede that this is pretty true (although pairing it with Talonflame can remedy this), however, you can beat a lot of mons with the coverage if you're bluffing hp ice. Remember I am only nomming it for C+ but think of some of the other C+ mons; Camerupt-mega, I would say that Thundurus-t is at least on par with it in terms of viability, Staraptor is pretty meh now because birdspam isn't as viable but still is a valuable member on a birdspam team, and Medicham-mega comes with an incredibly high opportunity cost, much higher than Thundurus' because it is a luxury mega although it is still pretty solid.
Now that most of the cons when using Thundy-t have been stated, let's go over some of the pros when using him. As previously said, Thundurus-t can decimate any playstyle at will (assuming that you are setting up on something that will probably switch out or just hit Thundurus with a weakish move), aka you can click Nasty Plot, Agility, or both. Another great trait that thundy has, is not being completely crewed over by priority because it resists Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, unlike many sweepers in the ou metagame. To go along with this, you can't use thundy-i as a safety net vs this sweeper, yet again, unlike most sweepers in the ou metagame. While on this topic I'd like to point out how great Volt Absorb is, albeit situational, but it allows Thundurus-t so set up on pokemon like Magnezone, Magneton, and Zapdos. Its speed tier of 101, while not anything to brag about, is a great benchmark, outspeeding all max speed base 100s as opposed to risking a speed tie with them. Also I have less lines in pros because they are a little bit easier to explain.
This is my example of a replay utilizing thundurus-t:
Even though it wasn't against the best players, it's still something.
TL;DR: Thundy-t is a really solid mon, while having a lot of cons, has a good amount of pros such as access to boosting moves, resisting/being neutral to all priority along with being immune to Thundy-i's Thunder wave that can bone so many sweepers.
Please be constructive if you are against this, along with not being too aggressive about it in your post.
Thundurus-T C -> C+:
First off, while the opportunity cost might be pretty big, but unlike mega Latios, Thundy-T is actually a really solid pokemon. I think that we all know what this guy does best but if you do not know, Thundy-t is a really good double dancer aka it can annihilate nearly every team archetype at will (can also run only agility or nasty plot but I always found double dance to be the best thing and nasty plot seems pretty outclassed by regular thundy). Another flaw that is bound to be brought up, is that Thundurus-t is really pressed for moveslots, and I completely agree with this. Unfortunately is probably going to expect HP Ice which is usually the best move, but it can run HP flying, Focus Blast, or Grass Knot, it all depends on what you want to beat. The final thought I can think of is that Thundurus is pretty easily countered, and I will concede that this is pretty true (although pairing it with Talonflame can remedy this), however, you can beat a lot of mons with the coverage if you're bluffing hp ice. Remember I am only nomming it for C+ but think of some of the other C+ mons; Camerupt-mega, I would say that Thundurus-t is at least on par with it in terms of viability, Staraptor is pretty meh now because birdspam isn't as viable but still is a valuable member on a birdspam team, and Medicham-mega comes with an incredibly high opportunity cost, much higher than Thundurus' because it is a luxury mega although it is still pretty solid.
Now that most of the cons when using Thundy-t have been stated, let's go over some of the pros when using him. As previously said, Thundurus-t can decimate any playstyle at will (assuming that you are setting up on something that will probably switch out or just hit Thundurus with a weakish move), aka you can click Nasty Plot, Agility, or both. Another great trait that thundy has, is not being completely crewed over by priority because it resists Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, unlike many sweepers in the ou metagame. To go along with this, you can't use thundy-i as a safety net vs this sweeper, yet again, unlike most sweepers in the ou metagame. While on this topic I'd like to point out how great Volt Absorb is, albeit situational, but it allows Thundurus-t so set up on pokemon like Magnezone, Magneton, and Zapdos. Its speed tier of 101, while not anything to brag about, is a great benchmark, outspeeding all max speed base 100s as opposed to risking a speed tie with them. Also I have less lines in pros because they are a little bit easier to explain.
This is my example of a replay utilizing thundurus-t:
TL;DR: Thundy-t is a really solid mon, while having a lot of cons, has a good amount of pros such as access to boosting moves, resisting/being neutral to all priority along with being immune to Thundy-i's Thunder wave that can bone so many sweepers.
Please be constructive if you are against this, along with not being too aggressive about it in your post.
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I was addressing the argument where people wanted to drop M-Latios because its a 'luxury mega'. If it's a luxury mega then there is no point in ranking it as an individual in the first place since people were arguing it was too similar to Latios. It would be better to merge or delete it because it causes a lot of nitpicking.
You obviously disagree with the notion that M-Latios is a 'luxury mega', but I wasn't addressing your viewpoint. I just posted because I thought this argument about M-Latios was useless in the first place. If it is a luxury mega, then there's not point in viewing it as something seperate from Latios. If it has a legitimate niche, then that's my bad. I only posted because people kept calling it outclassed by regular Latios yet still wanted it rank.
I...sorta think some of the rankings may need description changes. What's holding back Mega Latios from being a relevant threat isn't that it necessarily is countered by many Pokemon or easily dealt with, like some of the C-rank mons, but it's because it's outclassed. Of course I just repeated what's been said, but consider this: look at Mega Medicham. He was a top-tier threat back in the day of XY OU, and now he's C rank - not because he's not good, but because Mega Gallade pushed him right out of the spotlight. And that's sort of what I think what has happened to Mega Latios - not that it was pushed out of the spotlight, more along the lines of it never got to take its role in the spotlight.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. In addition to the possibility of being outclassed by another Pokemon, Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. They tend to face a lot of competition with commonly-used Pokemon.
So here's my reasoning behind this. A lot of people are saying Mega Latios should go down to C or even D, but it's not that bad. I admit I haven't tried it, but you can't go ahead and say something that has a spread of 80/130/100/160/120/110 (unless it has a hindering ability, bad movepool, bad typing, etc, but you get the point). By slightly changing the wording of the C rank description, you imply that Mega Latios is not bad, but is simply suffering from...outclassment? Outclassment.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. In addition to the possibility of being outclassed by another Pokemon, Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. They tend to face a lot of competition with commonly-used Pokemon.
So here's my reasoning behind this. A lot of people are saying Mega Latios should go down to C or even D, but it's not that bad. I admit I haven't tried it, but you can't go ahead and say something that has a spread of 80/130/100/160/120/110 (unless it has a hindering ability, bad movepool, bad typing, etc, but you get the point). By slightly changing the wording of the C rank description, you imply that Mega Latios is not bad, but is simply suffering from...outclassment? Outclassment.
Yeah the definitions were suppose to change rank update to the ones I wrote up. I'll do that now.
Edit: They're actually there just up top. I'll move it around.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. In addition to the possibility of being outclassed by another Pokemon, Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. They tend to face a lot of competition with commonly-used Pokemon.
This is pretty much the part that lets Mega Latios fit the bill. The descriptions are fine and they make the point they need to make for the Pokemon they have. I don't see what they lack.
This is pretty much the part that lets Mega Latios fit the bill. The descriptions are fine and they make the point they need to make for the Pokemon they have. I don't see what they lack.
I have no real problem with what you say however what does his mon really do better than its counterpart thundurus-I? They both have the exact same pros mentioned except for volt absorb but prankster is so much more reliable mostly for t-waving fast threats if not entirely that purpose. Also Thndurus-I sweeps just as well if not much better because it only needs np why even use Thundurus-T? The only reason is is even OU viable in comparison to its counterpart is because it found a nice place on rain teams but he isn't even very common on those anymore.
TLDR: Thundurus-I is better at the exact same job and I can't see a way you could justify otherwise
its not so much that thundy-t is a BAD mon by any means, its just significantly held back by thundy i. i used this a doubledance set a lot during the ninja suspect, and 90% of the time id rather just use nasty plot base thundurus, who doesnt need agility, as twave is great support while also helping speed control. plus, thundurus-i has the advantage of being able to go mixed (the defiant 4 attacks set it so good oml)
another thing that holds it back, is
that it has super underwhelming bulk, which it really needs as a doubledancer to find decent set up oppurtunities. its a good mon, but it comes with a lot of oppurtunity cost. imo, itd probably be in d rank if it werent for the electric immunity. i dont really care about thundy therian, but i really dont think its that good rn, especially since np thundy is getting fairly more common
EDIT: haha i got ninjad pretty bad
Lots of things are food for mega meta, if you choose to run t wave, they don't want their wincon para'd, and therefore they would be cautious of switching it in. Bringing up another point: granbull beats the other S rank mega: sableye, so keep that in mind as well.
Asking what it checks is kind of a silly question in my opinion, it checks all sorts of mons. Depending on the sets you run, it can beat lando-t, scarf and rox variants, SD to an extent if you run ice punch/roar. It beats mega gallade, mega gyarados, mega sableye, and it can switch in on crawdaunt with a neutral hit, which is no small feat. Granbull is also cool in the fact that it counters a lot of cores w/ talonflame, such as talonflame+ fighting type, or talonflame + mega dos, etc.
I may not have explained clearly enough, yes, clefable can handle heracross/gallade. Not as well, but its there. However what clefable can't do, is beat some common double physical attacker cores: heracross+ talonflame, gallade+ talonflame, etc. Before you dismiss granbull, I'd like you to reread the D ranking. It has certain niches however has many flaws which make it difficult to place on a team. It is generally outclassed by clefable, however accomplishes certain niche things that clefable can't, such as what I stated. Granbull for C may be pushing it, however I do believe granbull deserves a rating again, as it checks lots of new threats.
No not really. Wisp means you can't 1-1 before mega and you can't come in on it either.
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