Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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MANNAT

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Sad about raik drop esp since it offensively checking volc actually helps its viability a bit, but I'm really liking the changes a lot aside from that. Mega Alt or mega garde should probably rise since volc being added is amazing for them and it really helps them out. MAlt is the one I'm looking at in particular since malt+sand+volc builds are pretty solid rn (esp since sand is stupid) and there is so much pressure on common alt checks like weavile and shit from those builds that it's insane. Mega Alt's newfound resurgence in viability due to volc's addition is more than deserving of rising up. MAlt for A rank (if you need more elaboration than this, i can do that but im not sure how needed that is)

Also, none of these changes are in the actual OP as of right now. :p
Edit: changes were made as I was writing the post
 
A+ is getting really crowded. When is the next time you'll be moving discussion about which ones should move out of that sub-rank?
I don't see any reason to discuss any changes to the following (which are all solidly A+ at the lowest),
but I have a few things to say about the others.

This is surprisingly easy to deal with. Sure it's super fast, but most teams run some physical priority or Scarfed Pokemon with over 292 speed. One could say "that's revenge killing, it doesn't matter; Alakazam can just switch out," but on the flip side, it also doesn't get many opportunities to switch itself in, except after a teammate has fallen. Alakazam is hard to switch into because of its power, but not significantly scarier than a 130 Base Stat Pokemon with Life Orb.
I don't have much to say about this, but I just wanted to draw attention to one of the Pokemon I don't see as a solid hold on an A+ position. The Fake Outs are bothersome, and the Returns and High Jump Kicks hit hard, but I only occasionally find myself severely pressured by an opposing Mega-Lopunny. I think drawing out other people's opinions on it will be more helpful.
How good is this right now? It looks like all of the A+ Pokemon (except Ferrothorn, Latios, Mega-Metagross, and Mega-Scizor) put more pressure ON Talonflame in a game than they are pressured in return.
 
A+ is getting really crowded. When is the next time you'll be moving discussion about which ones should move out of that sub-rank?
I don't see any reason to discuss any changes to the following (which are all solidly A+ at the lowest),
but I have a few things to say about the others.

This is surprisingly easy to deal with. Sure it's super fast, but most teams run some physical priority or Scarfed Pokemon with over 292 speed. One could say "that's revenge killing, it doesn't matter; Alakazam can just switch out," but on the flip side, it also doesn't get many opportunities to switch itself in, except after a teammate has fallen. Alakazam is hard to switch into because of its power, but not significantly scarier than a 130 Base Stat Pokemon with Life Orb.
I don't have much to say about this, but I just wanted to draw attention to one of the Pokemon I don't see as a solid hold on an A+ position. The Fake Outs are bothersome, and the Returns and High Jump Kicks hit hard, but I only occasionally find myself severely pressured by an opposing Mega-Lopunny. I think drawing out other people's opinions on it will be more helpful.
How good is this right now? It looks like all of the A+ Pokemon (except Ferrothorn, Latios, Mega-Metagross, and Mega-Scizor) put more pressure ON Talonflame in a game than they are pressured in return.
Talonflame has a good matchup against bisharp, megalop, mega Alakazam, and can revenge kill most of the rest/most of the tier. I'm not sure it hasn't gotten worse, but as of relatively recently it was doing pretty well.
 

MANNAT

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How good is this right now? It looks like all of the A+ Pokemon (except Ferrothorn, Latios, Mega-Metagross, and Mega-Scizor) put more pressure ON Talonflame in a game than they are pressured in return.
Talon is still really good in today's meta and really shouldn't drop. It checks so many important threats like bisharp, clef, keld, tornt, megazam, ferro, lop, meta, sab, msciz, weavile, and prolly a few others I didn't mention in S and A+ rank ALONE. It is really good with blanket checking large amounts of mons while also having quite a bit of defensive utility vs teams, switching into key threats with its spdef set. Its offensive set is unexpected and can catch opponents off guard and really destroy them with ease. It should not drop at all imo. Volc's rising usage making fairies more common is also super beneficial for talon.
 
A+ is getting really crowded. When is the next time you'll be moving discussion about which ones should move out of that sub-rank?
I don't see any reason to discuss any changes to the following (which are all solidly A+ at the lowest),
but I have a few things to say about the others.

This is surprisingly easy to deal with. Sure it's super fast, but most teams run some physical priority or Scarfed Pokemon with over 292 speed. One could say "that's revenge killing, it doesn't matter; Alakazam can just switch out," but on the flip side, it also doesn't get many opportunities to switch itself in, except after a teammate has fallen. Alakazam is hard to switch into because of its power, but not significantly scarier than a 130 Base Stat Pokemon with Life Orb.
I don't have much to say about this, but I just wanted to draw attention to one of the Pokemon I don't see as a solid hold on an A+ position. The Fake Outs are bothersome, and the Returns and High Jump Kicks hit hard, but I only occasionally find myself severely pressured by an opposing Mega-Lopunny. I think drawing out other people's opinions on it will be more helpful.
How good is this right now? It looks like all of the A+ Pokemon (except Ferrothorn, Latios, Mega-Metagross, and Mega-Scizor) put more pressure ON Talonflame in a game than they are pressured in return.
Talonflame is actually really good right now I believe. Normal checks to it being Landorus, Tyranitar, etc. It is able to cripple usual switchins with it's bulky wisp set. Offensive SD is really strong since the usage of electrics (thundurus isn't all that bulky either) has been going down. Bulky wisp is really good at checking dark types since it takes so little. Talonflame has a lot of utility that make it really good which is reliable recovery, taunt, will o wisp, priority brave bird/acrobatics, SD and Bulk Up. From A+, the only checks I can see are Tyranitar, Rotom-W and Diancie which are really common, but Talon is able to cripple 2 of those. Tyranitar's effectiveness in a match can be depended on if it gets burnt by Talon so it is really good at pressuring switch-ins. Certain sets from Talonflame are easy for one thing to check while that thing gets checked by a different set. For Example, Offensive SD is beat by Landorus since it is able to take a hit while Talon beats Landorus with bulk up wisp. The versatility in sets makes Talonflame really good. I think a lot of things are annoying for it still. It is a really good check to M-Scizor (which I think lost a lot of viability) and all the dark types with it's bulky wisp set. That being said it really struggles vs. Diancie and Rotom-W, but I feel as if not all teams are prepared for all of it's sets.

after finishing my post I 100% agree with littlelucario
 
A+ is getting really crowded. When is the next time you'll be moving discussion about which ones should move out of that sub-rank?
I don't see any reason to discuss any changes to the following (which are all solidly A+ at the lowest),
but I have a few things to say about the others.

This is surprisingly easy to deal with. Sure it's super fast, but most teams run some physical priority or Scarfed Pokemon with over 292 speed. One could say "that's revenge killing, it doesn't matter; Alakazam can just switch out," but on the flip side, it also doesn't get many opportunities to switch itself in, except after a teammate has fallen. Alakazam is hard to switch into because of its power, but not significantly scarier than a 130 Base Stat Pokemon with Life Orb.
I don't have much to say about this, but I just wanted to draw attention to one of the Pokemon I don't see as a solid hold on an A+ position. The Fake Outs are bothersome, and the Returns and High Jump Kicks hit hard, but I only occasionally find myself severely pressured by an opposing Mega-Lopunny. I think drawing out other people's opinions on it will be more helpful.
How good is this right now? It looks like all of the A+ Pokemon (except Ferrothorn, Latios, Mega-Metagross, and Mega-Scizor) put more pressure ON Talonflame in a game than they are pressured in return.
Really, what's the problem with many Pokémon occupying a single rank? If they all perform at the level of A+ Pokémon, then they should be ranked such. Representativity is the prime factor in Viability Rankings and moving Pokémon down just because a rank has many Pokémon in it goes against representativity.
 
Does anyone else think M-Scizor has lost a lot of viability? I mean the addition of Volcanion is troubling to it. I think it found sucess before for being able to sweep late game while being the best switch-in to dark types with it's bulky set and a good switch-in to Mega-Alakazam without HP Fire which is not really common anyway. I mean the metagame is unintentionally packing things for M-Scizor like Manaphy, Charizard-X, Heatran, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Volcanion, Charizard-Y, Talonflame, Thundurus, etc. While I see how useful it is for cleaning up vs things like Clefable, Tornadus T, Latios and it's ability to clean up all fairy types. I don't feel like it's the best steel type due to it's lackluster speed. I think Excadrill and Jirachi are much better. If anything it's at the bottom of A+ for me. Like when I am teambuilding I don't need to be like "where's my scizor checks because I already have a Keldeo" you get the point. I am in no way in shape or form asking for a drop, I want more of an opinion from others about how it stands in the meta
 

bludz

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Personally, I think Mega Scizor is one of the top 3 megas at the moment. Diancie, Scizor, Sableye, in no real order.

Scizor hard checks Rock types which are really good right now (Ttar, Diancie, Terrakion even), and still blanket checks and sets up on a ton of things. The pivot Pursuit set which has been getting some love lately makes it a bit more versatile than just a Swords Dancer. Honestly Scizor just covers so many big problems for offense like Weavile, Alakazam, Azumarill, pretty much all the other Fairies, and soft checks a tonn of threats like Medicham, Lopunny and many more physical attackers.

Also, many of its most common checks (including Volcanion), lack reliable recovery. A large decrease in Charizard has also been kind to Scizor, since it's one of the few counters that had good recovery. This means a lot of the time you can pressure the opponent early game and set up for a late game Scizor sweep when its best checks have been sufficiently weakened. Keldeo, a mon that you mentioned as an answer to Scizor, is a pretty good example of a check that loses to +2 once you whittle it down enough. This isn't too tough between hazards, the ability to run U-turn to chip it, and the number of things Keldeo is normally used to check.
 

MANNAT

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On top of what bludz said, volcanion use has caused heatran usage to decline, as their roles overlap somewhat and there's not too much point of using them on the same team aside from select teams. Tran is a much more reliable check to msciz since it can outspeed fast variants and click fire blast whereas volc has to tank a hit before hitting scizor. Also, volc has caused fairy usage to climb since it is such a good partner for them, so msciz's ability to check fairies has become even more important than ever. It's borderline S rank, but I think it's still A+ for reasons that I don't really feel like making a debate out of for the millionth time.
 
Does anyone else think M-Scizor has lost a lot of viability? I mean the addition of Volcanion is troubling to it. I think it found sucess before for being able to sweep late game while being the best switch-in to dark types with it's bulky set and a good switch-in to Mega-Alakazam without HP Fire which is not really common anyway. I mean the metagame is unintentionally packing things for M-Scizor like Manaphy, Charizard-X, Heatran, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Volcanion, Charizard-Y, Talonflame, Thundurus, etc. While I see how useful it is for cleaning up vs things like Clefable, Tornadus T, Latios and it's ability to clean up all fairy types. I don't feel like it's the best steel type due to it's lackluster speed. I think Excadrill and Jirachi are much better. If anything it's at the bottom of A+ for me. Like when I am teambuilding I don't need to be like "where's my scizor checks because I already have a Keldeo" you get the point. I am in no way in shape or form asking for a drop, I want more of an opinion from others about how it stands in the meta
I have to disagree with you on mega scizzor, I have been having a lot of success with the offensive sd set. At +2 superpower kills volcanion after rocks. And it seems like less people are using talonflame, heatran and hippowdon at the moment which definitely makes scizzor's life easier.
 

Gary

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Eh I'm not sure if I entirely agree on how Volcanion is overlapping Heatran in terms of role compression. Tbh the only main similarity between the two is that both are pretty damn good offensive Fairy checks as well as great partners to the due to their ability to heavily punish Steels. I would say the only reason Heatran might drop off a bit in usage is going to be caused by how you can't really use Heatran on a team with Volcanion without being insanely weak to Terrakion, Tyranitar, Keldeo, Exca, Chomper, and Lando-T, which really sucks. Heatran offers a MUCH more consistent Clef check because it can shut it down with Taunt and trap it with Magma Storm. It's also a better check to more offensive variants of Talonflame, and can switch into Latios a few times if necessary. It's also a hell of a lot more versatile, as it can run all out offensive set, defensive rocks, stallbreaker, Scarf, and even Specs, so it can be tailored better to fit your team. Volc is very prone to hazards, somewhat lesser overall bulk iirc, slower by a few points which can actually be pretty significant (is outsped by Jolly Sharp and Loom if running Modest), and it doesn't pack as many resistances.

Volcanion arguably offers more role compression than Heatran, but it sure as hell doesn't outclass it nor does its job better. Volc will see more usage overall because its more splashable at least until its hype wears off, but Heatran is still a very good Pokemon, it's just that with all the Volcs running around, it has a harder time finding itself onto teams because people don't want to stack weaknesses and would rather use Volcanion + some other rocker or Clef check.

Also I think A+ rank is a very good starting place for Volcanion. Like LittleLucario mentioned it's probably borderline S rank at least right now, but I feel like once the meta adapts to it A+ will be much for fitting for it, maybe A depending on if the meta starts to shift out of its favor, but I can't really see that happening anytime soon. It's so stupidly easy to slap onto a team and the only thing that is somewhat annoying when building with it is that hazard control is pretty much necessary, otherwise Volc has issues coming in and spamming Steam Eruption. Thankfully though it pairs very well with Latios and Excadrill, two of OU's best hazard removers, so it fits very comfortably on sand offense or bulky offensive teams that utilize T-tar.

One of the biggest issues I have with people in this forum is that a LOT of you guys seem to only view Pokemon as if they were in a vacuum instead of looking at them when supported by 5 other teammates. Obviously Volc is slow and weak to Stealth Rock, and it can't solo stall or bulky offense on its own and it is pretty easy to revenge kill especially vs offense. Its main STAB also has low PP so it can be stalled out with something like Suicune or teams that pack cleric support pretty easily. It also doesn't have the greatest overall coverage in the world so it depends a lot on Steam Eruption and the somewhat matchup based Hidden Power. It arguably requires more support than things found in A+ rank like Mega Lopunny or Garchomp. In a vacuum it's far from an A+ Pokemon, but with proper team support, it's easily one of the biggest threats in the metagame and very easy to fit onto a team. The support it needs is usually something that most teams already utilize, such as a hazard remover, stall breaker, check to offense, and something like Thundy or Serp to punish bulky waters. The support it needs is very easy to come by and unlike some of the other big threats in the metagame such as Mega Pinsir, you don't really have to build a team around it in order for it to be successful, in fact you'll most likely find yourself using Volcanion on a team to support something else you're building such as Mega Sableye or Mega Gardevoir.

The Volc meta is still very young, but as bludz said in the metagame thread, I think Volc could very well be what the ORAS meta needed. While it somewhat forces you to run more aggresive answers to it, it works so well with so much of the metagame that it promotes team diversity and allows you to experiment with a lot more cores. Practically every top tier threat aside from a select few (Azu and Mega Venu took a pretty big hit from it) pairs so well with it offensively or defensively, so much in fact that even pairing it with other waters such as Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, or Manaphy can be very beneficial; Keldeo cleans up very easily with Latis weakened and both Manaphy and Mega Gyara set up on practically every bulky Water-type in the tier (Sub DD in particular). It promotes the use of previously rarer but viable Pokemon such as Jellicent, Slowking, Gastrodon, and Seismitoad.

tl;dr Volcanion is the messiah
 
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MANNAT

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What I meant was that tran and volcanion are both offensive fire types that check similar mons like scizor, ferro, sab, rachi, skarm, amoong, klefki, mew, etc. They have some overlap in terms of what they check. Volcanion checks more mons decently well, but the things that tran checks it checks quite well. Both are really good overall, but volc may be used on some teams that may have used tran in the past.
 
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Eclipse

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Hippowdon: A- --> B+
I think it's safe to say that Hippo's time in the spotlight has faded for a while now, and pretty much nothing in the meta at the moment really helps favor it. Volcanion's rise to prominence leading to far more bulky waters in the tier, bulky grasses still slightly on the rise, as well as Tyranitar being so prominent on many different playstyles while also being used as the main sand setter mean that Hippo struggles consistently and finds itself simply dead weight a lot of the time at this point in the meta. Landorus especially being used as the bulky ground of choice, mean that it's difficult to really justify using Hippo right now. While sure, it's good bulk+typing leave it as a solid pokemon overall, it is simply not good enough to fit in with any of the A- ranked mons due to the meta being extremely hostile towards it and at this point, it really deserves to drop to B+ rank.
 
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I'd like to nom mega medicham to A+, this mon is pretty good and has just as much of an impact on the game as many of the other mons in a+ like tran and rotom. This monster can easily pick up a KO on basically every switch against offensive teams, doing enough to 2hko even clefable with hjk(I believe this is based on rolls but it's still a ridiculous concept). The mon doesnt appreciate ghosts much, granted, but the only real important ghosts in the tier are mega sableye, which is a problem, and gengar, which is terrified to switch in and isnt even that popular anyways. In addition, cham gets coverage moves to threaten lando-t, garchomp, mega venusaur, and tornadus-t, all of which are pretty relevant metagame threats. Finally, it lost one of its major competitors in the wallbreaker slot when hoopa-u left the tier, giving it less competition on teams which needed ways to deal with stall. All in all, this mon does a lot of damage and is enough of a threat to bulky offense and balance builds to warrant A+ in my opinion.
 
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I'm not seeing how only Mega Altaria's viability has significantly increased with the presence of Volcanion.

The only positive argument is that it pairs well with it. Um, 3/4's of the entire metagame pair excellently with Volcanion, so by that logic everything that pairs well with it should move up an entire rank as well? I don't understand why it's suddenly being hyped that it can even be brought back to A when the same negative factors that kept it from being as great as it once was, are still present and I still can't do much about it without team support, which is one of the reasons it dropped. Then we have Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie, the latter of which is just incredible right now, who also pairs well with Volcanion. And we all know that they are two Mega Fairies that give Mega Altaria the hefty competition it had in the first place, and I'm waiting for people to catch on to Mega Latias + Volcanion as a great core too which throws the notion of Defensive Mega Altaria being better out the window. Although I honestly think it should be placed at B+, but A- is fine for it right now until the hype dies down and the meta adapts.

And please don't hit me with this mystical Mega Altaria Sand as if it's the best thing since sliced bread

Honestly, I think most of the upcoming nominations should steer clear of the same argument. "Volcanion pairs well with it, move it up to S fam" should not be you're only argument for something that depends on another thing to move up. Viability Rankings are to reflect on the total impact a specific threat has on the metagame itself, not when paired with another threat to the metagame. I'm not bashing on Mega Altaria, but I'm going to continue to use it as an example. If Mega Altaria deserves A Rank now that Volcanion is here, then it should have been A Rank since Magnezone has been in OU as well correct? We all know Magnezone is one the best partners for it, but that didn't increase it's viability now did it? In fact it just kept dropping S despite it's amount of teammates that synergize with it. Take a look at Mega Scizor, who is thriving right now. It's a lot more self sufficient than Mega Altaria will ever be again in ORAS and feed off the current trends, which delegates where what is ranked.

e: hippo is bad so b+ is good
 
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MANNAT

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If Mega Altaria deserves A Rank now that Volcanion is here, then it should have been A Rank since Magnezone has been in OU as well correct? We all know Magnezone is one the best partners for it, but that didn't increase it's viability now did it?
This is a terrible example... Magnezone has been in ou for the entire generation whereas volcanion is a newly introduced mon. The metagame shift of alt sand offense generally becoming much more viable with the addition of volcanion into the tier is what makes it better, teams with it generally being better and it having gained a great partner mid-gen. Magnezone is literally only in ou to do one job (it checks more than steels, but without the ability to trap steels with hp fire it wouldn't be ou is what i mean) and comparing that to volc who blanket checks a ton of shit and has a lot more utility is dead wrong not to mention that altaria commonly runs a special set with like hvoice/fire coverage/heal bell/roost anyways these days so mag isnt even too great a partner. Mag is more from when dd malt was still a good set and the thing was s rank.
The only positive argument is that it pairs well with it. Um, 3/4's of the entire metagame pair excellently with Volcanion, so by that logic everything that pairs well with it should move up an entire rank as well? d
This isn't true. Volcanion is a good glue mon that can finish off teams well and has a ton of utility overall on teams with most mons, but it supports mega altaria specifically very well, moreso than other mons and has even made alt builds more viable, making alt a more viable option in the current metagame. I like to think that ou shouldn't be thought of in a vacuum most of the time. There's 5 mons paired with something, so if teams with a mon get better as a result of a metagame shift making a mons out of those 5 more viable or straight up adding a more viable mon in one of those slots, then that mon gains viability since alt pairs well with that mon. Alt also offers heal bell support for volc, which most mons can't vouch for and is surprisingly good since volc despises both paralysis and poison.
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life

Jellicent for C

So I've been testing some more underused mons lately, and I've discovered that Jellicent is actually a pretty good mon. Volcanion being released has really helped this thing's viability, as it's one of the better checks in the tier to it, and it can really mess up those Specs Volcanion + Tyranitar cores running around with a Colbur Berry Will-O-Wisp set, being able to survive a Dark move from Tyranitar and cripple it, and then proceed to check Volcanion even better without the threat of Ttar. Jellicent fits really nicely on balanced squads, especially hazard stacking builds, as they appreciate a spinblocker that can check Volcanion well and spread around status with Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, and use Taunt to cripple defensive teams. Jellicent is not without it's flaws, however. It's bulk, while decent, isn't great, and it isn't a very good Ground type check due to having lower physical bulk than other bulky waters, which is a big problem as a Jellicent team will have to find another Ground check since Jelli does not take Earthquake that well, especially if it runs a Calm Nature. It also has a bit of 4MSS, as without Toxic or Ghost STAB it cannot touch Volcanion ironically, and without Taunt defensive playstyles take advantage of it. But it's unique niche of checking Volcanion really well and being a spinblocker on hazard stacking builds while also spreading status is not something to be overlooked, and in this meta it's niche is more pronounced, so I think it deserves a rise to C for it's niche becoming bigger in the metagame.
 
so what're ppl's thoughts on mega manetric lately? i've been using it over the last few days and it's blown me away tbh, especially considering i've never really liked it. was not expecting it to be so good. not gonna insult your intelligence by describing mane and what it does, just lemme know what you think about its standing rn

e: ik this post looks messy but on mobile w/e
 
Yeah, drop it to B+ The Meta has been incredibly unkind to it lately. The rise of Volcanion and Latias-Mega has been hurting it a lot lately, and it's a rather outclassed Pokemon that just can't do very much in OU right now. Hippowdon's primary points are Stealth Rock and Sand; Sand helps Excadrill but Tyranitar does that better, and if you want a Ground type Stealth Rock setter than you're better off using Landorus-Therian. Most of the things that Hippowdon counters haven't been especially common lately either, also hurting its role as a mixed wall.
 
so what're ppl's thoughts on mega manetric lately? i've been using it over the last few days and it's blown me away tbh, especially considering i've never really liked it. was not expecting it to be so good. not gonna insult your intelligence by describing mane and what it does, just lemme know what you think about its standing rn

e: ik this post looks messy but on mobile w/e
It's been droppin in usage and I see why. Things like M-Latias and Sand are pretty popular. But it can effectively check popular things like Scizor and Bird spam which is really good. I think it was really good when offense was popular since it outsped everything. Alakazam is now the fastest thing. I think the metagame shifting towards balance bulky offense-ish teams makes Manectric less effective since it isn't really all the strong when we have a bunch of strong things in the tier like Volcanion that work better vs balance/bulky offense. I'd say lack of power is an issue for it vs bulky things
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

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I think Volcanion has the potential to suppress Azu down to A rank. It's the ultimate blue bunny hard counter. There is not a set that Azu can throw at Volcanion that doesn't get dominated. BD gets hazed before it can do anything. CB cant reliably dent it enough for Azu to finish it off alone. Maybe it's too soon, but I think Azu is hurt a lot by Volcanion just existing. Haze is also really good for CM Clefable and can also negate overheat drops, basically giving Volcanion a two-turn BP 130 Stab. Volcanion has huge potential and I hope it doesn't get pigeonholed into Scarf/Specs sets when it has great physical defense with a very good typing and an interesting move pool.
 
I think Volcanion has the potential to suppress Azu down to A rank. It's the ultimate blue bunny hard counter. There is not a set that Azu can throw at Volcanion that doesn't get dominated. BD gets hazed before it can do anything. CB cant reliably dent it enough for Azu to finish it off alone. Maybe it's too soon, but I think Azu is hurt a lot by Volcanion just existing. Haze is also really good for CM Clefable and can also negate overheat drops, basically giving Volcanion a two-turn BP 130 Stab. Volcanion has huge potential and I hope it doesn't get pigeonholed into Scarf/Specs sets when it has great physical defense with a very good typing and an interesting move pool.
Like azu can run knock off on banded set which not only deal huge damage but also removes specs/other item. Not to mention that defensive set have to run ~176 ev in speed to outspeed jolly azu so I don't think that everybody will put so much investment in speed on defensive mon.
 

Gary

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Volc isn't really meant to be a switch-in on Azumarill, hell what kind of offensive Pokemon can really pivot into CB other than Mega Venusaur? It's meant to just be an all around solid check to it and keeps it from just mindlessly clicking Aqua Jet late game. CB Superpower/Knock Off will still do a ton to it as will Play Rough, but the biggest thing with Volc being so common is that now Azu is more heavily pressured, which it wasn't really before and it could put in so much work vs teams that lacked really fat shit like Amoonguss, Tangrowth, or Mega Venu. Also unlike those three Pokemon I just mentioned, Volc heavily punishes bad Azu prediction, as nothing wants to take a Steam Eruption and if you fail to predict correctly, you could give Volc a free chance to come in and spam STABs. Jolly CB Azu is so bad lol, I wouldn't run it just for slower Volcs (offensive sets practically run max Speed anyway). I can't see BD Azu being that great in this meta simply because Jolly is still outsped by Modest Volc and it just straight dies to Sludge without even getting off a single hit.

While Volc definitely hurts Azu that doesn't mean it's going to fall out of favor. CB is still a very strong set, and with hazard support Volc can really only switch into Play Rough one time, so once you eliminate the primary Play Rough switch-in Azu can still freely spam its Fairy STAB. It just needs to be a lot more careful about spamming Jet. We really needed a better check to Azu so I'm glad we got Volc lol.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Only thing I dislike about jellicent vs tartar and volc is if it switches to tartar when You come in if they switch back with cover the burn/water threats and switching on tartar is bad even with a berry. Other than toxic stall I really don't understand how it'd come into play.

Azu might run vest more often and after getting a knock off on volc that's some solid bulk to play with
 

p2

Banned deucer.
can sab be moved back up to s rank

never really saw a reason for it to drop in the first place and it's still the same unholy centralising piece of shit it was before. i think the main reason it was dropped was mostly a knee jerk reaction to the banning of shadow tag but several months later its still a very dominant force because of the way it single handedly shuts out a ton of mons and the way it dictates stallbreaking is such a strong force when it comes to teambuilding, forcing teams to prepare very heavily for it, but a load of its common answers and checks have fallen in usage apart from stuff like diancie, clef, and tran. a lot of other stuff has just taken a big hit in viability or usage especially stuff like altaria / zards. not to mention that the stuff that does beat sableye is actually fairy easily to cover with support, hence leading to the ladder being more stall dominant than usual. you can say "p2 ur just shit run stallbreakers" but that argument kinda falls down on itself when stallbreakers need the initial hazard pressure to eat into stall, which sableye does a very good job of preventing, and no i will not run rocks clef on my offense and rocks tran doesn't particularly fit on every offense build either - and if you think rocks tran is a good idea on every team then it just goes to show how limiting sableye is. i've also spammed the living shit out of sab recently so im not only taking a negative approach from facing it, but also from experience of using it.

tl;dr i think sab is the biggest restraint in the tier at the moment and never really had any reason to drop back when stag got banned, infact it had no reason to not get banned either.
 
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